PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Tuathanach on August 19, 2013, 12:33:28 pm
-
I do not feel mthat there is enough encouragement for the community to become involved in assisting with developemnt of the game. I do note however the settings teams have had a few attempts to get feedback and involvement from players like on what knowledge NPC's should have, which I feel is a positive move.
I understand the coding side requires specific skills, but there are some areas the community (those who can program) could provide patches for certain bugs or provide potential new features. The last patches I heard of being provided was for the ghosting problem with sacks, but sadly devs had not looked at the patch neither did they seem to be likely to. I understand there are only a few and they have limited time which is probably the main reason in this case.
I was glad to see a few years ago when Amdeneir was created and provided by the community. I think this was great, but there are many smaller art based projects from textures to simple (compared with a whole new town) 3d models that are required in Planeshift which I feel the community can provide.
I would like to see more community encouragement like competitions for new art. I would also like to see a sort of drop in centre where people can post / hand in new content for dev approval and can see a list of what is wanted by the devs as priority items. This would allow people to help development when they can without being tied to the comitment of being a dev, this way people who can help out on their holidays from college/uni can contribute during holidays when they have time.
It was also be nice to see the specs things need to adhear to. For Example character model must be a maximum of 1500 faces/polys, advise head ~ 400, body ~ 300, arms, 100, hands ~ 200, legs ~ 200 & feet ~ 300. Also requires following animations walk, run, sit, stand, attack & mine.
-
I understand the coding side requires specific skills, but there are some areas the community (those who can program) could provide patches for certain bugs or provide potential new features. The last patches I heard of being provided was for the ghosting problem with sacks, but sadly devs had not looked at the patch neither did they seem to be likely to. I understand there are only a few and they have limited time which is probably the main reason in this case.
This is not true if you look at the bug tracker http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/flyspray/ (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/flyspray/) you will see how many patches are being committed and tested, the problem is every single patch needs to be tested otherwise not only it may not solve the bug but it can introduce a new bug itself, and testing requires a lot of time.
I was glad to see a few years ago when Amdeneir was created and provided by the community. I think this was great, but there are many smaller art based projects from textures to simple (compared with a whole new town) 3d models that are required in Planeshift which I feel the community can provide.
if some players want to pickup a project and work on it (or even better a players team) they only need to log in #planeshift-prospects or send a private message to the department leader and speak about what they want to do.
For example I've always said that I'm open to provide guidance for anyone willing to implement new crafting; as it basically requires no further engine development (at least server side) it's all about providing the data (which is a lot of work).
An example are two prospects that are working on two new crafting: Rheos (working on Brewing) and Skelbellor (working on bow making), it's a lot of work and I thanks them for it.
I would like to launch more competitions for arts, crafting data and the like but I have really no time to do so because I have a job and PS development takes up a lot of my free time.
We also lack a PR dev and he should be the one handling community competitions and this sort of things; so if any of you is willing to work along us to support such initiatives he/she is very welcome to do so!
Another big problem we have to face are peoples joining in, starting a task and then never complete it, this is of course sup-optimal as it require us time to get the task started and eventually teach people how to do the job and this time is then wasted, but it's ok we know it can happens.
Also note for events it's already happening: players take the lead organizing an event and along us and the GM team we help to provide what's necessary to help.
So if anyone want to help best way would be to form a group (if possible) contact one of us, starts a small task and try hard to complete it.
It was also be nice to see the specs things need to adhear to. For Example character model must be a maximum of 1500 faces/polys, advise head ~ 400, body ~ 300, arms, 100, hands ~ 200, legs ~ 200 & feet ~ 300. Also requires following animations walk, run, sit, stand, attack & mine.
http://planeshift.top-ix.it/pswiki/index.php?title=Main_Page (http://planeshift.top-ix.it/pswiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
The wiki contains many informations on what is required to make stuff for PS and how to provide it, of course some info are outdated but here we may use your help to keep it up to date.
I will also take the chance to say I am looking for player's help to update the Player's Guide:
http://planeshift.top-ix.it/pswiki/index.php?title=Players_Guide (http://planeshift.top-ix.it/pswiki/index.php?title=Players_Guide)
it's pretty out of date but with the player's help we can get it in good shape, some players already volunteered to provide some help.
-
I supose what I was saying was for it to look easier and more inviting to contribute. I also understand that there are a limited number of devs with limited time and not all areas like PR are filled. I am grateful to what the devs have achieved with limited resources. But I would like to see some more encouragement from the dev towards the community (and of course more thanks given to the devs for their hard work). The Devs development blog was a good idea but sadly it seems to have faded.
http://planeshift.top-ix.it/pswiki/index.php?title=Main_Page (http://planeshift.top-ix.it/pswiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
The wiki contains many informations on what is required to make stuff for PS and how to provide it, of course some info are outdated but here we may use your help to keep it up to date.
I have seen this but it does not provide the information I am looking for what is required for a character model all it says is
Monster or character model
See our tools pipeline document for details.
and assets needed
Assets Needed
Here is a list of assets you may decide to create and contribute to PlaneShift:
Screenshots used as advertizing or press material
Sketches and concept art
Fan made videos
Icons
Textures for existing models
New 3d items (geometry, UVs, textures) used as props
Full areas (for example a new cave level)
Monster or character model (geometry, UV, textures)
Monsters or character rigging (skeleton/bones setup)
Monsters or characters animation
Skins for the game User Interface
Rendered scenes used as advertizing or press material (example youtube channel)
For me this is all to vague. I understand that this wiki is not a priority and that dev time is limited and precious.
I appologise if this sounds like an attack on devs, I do actually appreciate what they have done. I want to see the community helping the devs and working better together, currently I feel communication is a problem, but the met the devs and the dev blog do help. I feel that there is too much of a gap between both sides and seem at times to be working against each other.
-
I appologise if this sounds like an attack on devs, I do actually appreciate what they have done. I want to see the community helping the devs and working better together, currently I feel communication is a problem, but the met the devs and the dev blog do help. I feel that there is too much of a gap between both sides and seem at times to be working against each other.
No attack or offense have been taken so no need for apologies ;)
I feel like the same about communication, when I joined the devs I was hoping I could fill the gap a bit but time constrain and RL issues prevented me from doing what I wanted to, so I just concentrated on what I was the only one able to work on (due to a mix of knowledge on how things have to be done, access to devs tools, ...): fixing/improving scripts, making new crafting, fixing rules bugs, ...
If anyone is willing to fill in that gap I'm more than happy to help him/her.
-
Seeing you are right in some of the things you say and after last night's in-game meeting I have created this thread. I hope it covers enough for someone to get started. :)
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41370.0
-
Last night was the first time I went to a dev meeting in game (most of it) and (most of it) was way over this non-tech player's head
BUT
I was glad I went: I learned things and appreciated listening to the back and forth discussions.
Let me SECOND \\o// Tua's et al's comment about need for community involvement, ESPECIALLY IN PR. I think art competitions are a great idea, and if everyone in the PS community that has some pr /outreach skills, and connections to other gaming rp potential players, websites, listservs, zines, etc, if we concentrated for a time - maybe this fall, in organizing such outreach and potential competitions, perhaps both objectives of community building and player count increase might be positively addressed?
Can we get our talented and tech savvy players involved in a shorter term, ad hoc, outreach push this fall supported by non tech and rpers organizing player in game events, along with big fun GM events like the assault? Like an event a week? Could we do this? Is this a good idea?
RR
the artistically gifted and technically idiotic elf ::|
-
I've tried quite hard to get people involved with PS, adding community tags to threads I want people to comment on. Many of the things people have said in those I've added to the game and many others I will get to. I chatted a lot with people in IRC about the tutorial and many of the players comments are in there.
I've started threads asking for people to make things and how to go about it, to which I've had only two different players respond (one of which was roled).
I've commented at meet the Dev meetings about talking to us about making things.
I've asked in game hundreds of times, and have had chats with a dozen or so people about the process of making content.
But when it comes to players (who are not prospects or devs) deciding to create or make somethings for settings all my asking has resulted in 4 people offering things they have made to be added to settings, or to make new things for settings (one of which was also roled and his work is awesome, I really like it). To me it seems really very hard to get people to help. I would absolutely love it if everyone in the game made one item a year, or one item every 6 months as the amount of content would explode. Maybe the impression the Dev team has in the wider game is the problem. It is very very very easy to make things on your own time line, be it hours, days or weeks. Player contributions can take as long as are needed to finish, there are no deadlines. The only thing I look for is an interesting piece of work which would improve the game for all.
-
What a lot has happened in just over a year. I have gone from a player criticising the lack of community involvement and lack of Dev encouragement to becoming a prospect and now an associate dev. There is a page with info on how to join the Dev team http://www.planeshift.it/Join%20Us (http://www.planeshift.it/Join%20Us). there is also an IRC channel on freenode #planeshift-prospects for those interested in joining or contributing to this game.
Over the last year I feel that in reality little has changed in the way things are run, nor have I done a lot to change this. But I now probably have better understanding from dev point of view, this is a hard bridge to gap. As a Dev you are a volunteer and many of us work and or study full time and some have families, so time is limited. Community based projects are time consuming and guarantee nothing. Also most of us have a list of things to do and have to prioritise. Some of us in dev team do ask from time to time feedback from players and I still believe Dev Q+A is useful.
However in the near future I would like to ask the community to help me with a project for Planeshift. Assuming no experience on your part required what are people interested in contributing, Initially the main thing will be quests and if interest also will be books. If people are interested in contributing these or anything else in game I am happy to speak with them and direct as best I can, you can contact me in game, via PM or on IRC on #planeshift-prospects. Or ask in this thread.
-
Do you mean contribute in general or things that require the license to be signed?
-
Do you mean contribute in general or things that require the license to be signed?
As far as I am aware most things need the license signed.
http://www.planeshift.it/License (http://www.planeshift.it/License) for more info on license. I know previously there was skunkworks, which was a player project aimed at creating new content, which did the work behind leatherworking and leather armour crafting.
-
Eliseth lead the skunkworks but has not been seen for awhile I'm sure.
-
I have a couple of questions for people.
1: Are people interested in contributing to either a: a project lead by me or b: the game in general?
2: Do people have ideas to increase/encourage community involvement in game development?
I do feel most in this community are capable of contributing.
-
I have a couple of questions for people.
1: Are people interested in contributing to either a: a project lead by me or b: the game in general?
2: Do people have ideas to increase/encourage community involvement in game development?
I do feel most in this community are capable of contributing.
I have a couple of questions for people.
1: Are people interested in contributing to either a: a project lead by me or b: the game in general?
2: Do people have ideas to increase/encourage community involvement in game development?
I do feel most in this community are capable of contributing.
As an ex-prospect, who tried but lost motivation after a month and a half, I can provide some context to the how and why people will not contribute. Just one opinion among many, don't take it too hard.
How to Enter the Dev-team.
People join the dev-team all the time. In my short stay I've seen plenty of folk trying to join the team. It's rather easy to join, which is great: Just sign up the google docs document and present yourself in the IRC-chat, which is operated by people who are online 24/7. These people welcome you, point you to your manager. He interviews you and he gives you a task. Depending in the department, you get swift access to certain parts of a dedicated dev-wiki. Here you can look at models, stories, all the quests, textures and every in-game book you can think of.
Once you've completed your first task, you gain the respect of your fellow developers who will then quickly give you a new assignment and before long you can call yourself a real planeshift dev...
Right? That would be the optimal way of handling recruits but sadly this cannot be the case due to time and energy constraints. Everybody's a volunteer after all. Let me paint my experience
You sign up for the crew. You wait a week before you get answer. In the mean while you join #planeshift-prospects and find that it is empty, unless you live in certain parts of the world. After rejoining for several days (since most people do not keep their laptop/pc on for 24/7 to keep a constant connection) you finally meet one of the devs.
After explaining yourself he tells you he needs to find something called a ABC-license which you have to sign in order to join. This is a basic contract which in turn hands over all your rights of your created content. Quite reasonable but some may find it hard to hand over their babies unconditionally. With some luck you'll get the contract after a week of waiting. When you hand it in another week for a response.
Now you're in. The problem is that the person that welcomed you isn't the department leader of your department. So you can chat all you'd like but he can't give you an assignment. This is because of the fragmented nature of the development team, which serves as a sort of Titanic; You could poke a hole somewhere, but nobody will have access to 100% of the content at any time.
Finally, after finding the correct person in the chat (or sending several emails as I have) you get a response and a task. This is often a very simple, orientational task so you will grasp the concept. You complete the task fairly quickly but got no response for a while. Then I turned to one of the devs and asked if I could help. He said he could use some help but I would have to go by my manager to request this transfer. Once again I have to note that the only way to talk to my manager was to find him online, on IRC at exactly the same time as I was online.
So I believe we took a shortcut and I just started on working for the project (note that we're about a month into the process now). I had to write a few quests in the quest syntax. But just writing isn't good enough, you have to make every last little part fit in the ever expanding world of planeshift. Unless your character was 100% thought out, it would't be accepted by the people responsible.
I didn't quit officially, but drifted away as my attention was simply drawn to other places. I didn't feel like misplacing my unending enthusiasm and precious time in a project that didn't respond in kind. I lost motivation and here I am telling my story.
Communication.
Note in my story that the communication was slow. It took weeks for e-mails to be answered and IRC is only effective for those that have servers that run 24/7. For most people it's simply a lucky draw, influenced by your timezone, whether you will find the person you require. IRC is lauded as the end-all-be-all of communication technology and this will probably never change in the minds of the dev-team.
Community-Feeling.
As an outsider, you are just that. Rather than a warm welcome you are treated as if you're probably going to drop out anyway. The only way to be accepted is to have an undying appreciation for the current way of how things are done, to have endless internal motivation to provide and help and have unlimited patience in order to receive your seniority.
The dev team has stated that they're not there to motivate. Personally, I don't think that's a thankful way to lead a team made of people that offer their time to your freely.
Leadership.
The team is fragmented and based on a "leader-team" model on purpose. I understand that. However, it meant that the quickest way I got anything done was to talk to fellow prospects and apprentice-developers as they were just as lost as I was.
On the chat I met a 3D-modeller, who left after two weeks because nobody in charge would be online whenever he was. When they finally were, his models were deemed 'okay' as he endured lots of 'constructive critisism' which demotivated him a lot. While it is easy to write what should be changed, it cost him time. In this case it was to make really nonsensical things, such as oven-doors I believe, or a miss-alignment of the textures. Both?
He left after creating just a single model, probably not even used in-game yet. I got the guy's Skype and what he told me was simple: Nobody was online, they want silly changes and when I've changed the model, nobody responds.
Rather than simply accepting the model, asking him to make a model of something else, returning after a month or so to ask for the oven's doors when it's no problem... The man had to endure critisism upon non-reaction. (Honestly, the quickest way to lose motivation?)
The Technology.
The wiki, the IRC. They are all useful in the creation of such a game. However, the wiki is rarely updated (I was adviced against using it intensely) and IRC is considered the best of the best. Regardless of the fact that there are many powerful and complex project management tools which could streamline many processes. But, even though we could easily use IRC alongside a management tool, IRC is the only means of communication deemed neccesary.
Assertiveness.
Any attempts to prospects to create something of their own is squashed quickly by the development team. You need to create what you're tasked to do or you won't do anything. Maps, books, textures even models that arn't asked for will be trown away, never to be used. Rather than using an organical growth model, where a person builds, under guidance, what he prefers and receives satisfaction from, growth is bottlenecked by the development leaders.
Quality
The developers want to make this the best game ever. Every quest, story, texture, model etc. handed in is scrutinied extensively and won't be used unless it's 'quality' work. This level of quality is purely based on the subjective opinion of the development leader. Regardless of the hours you put in the texture, if he wants a certain thing changed, you better work at it some more. If you want every user/volunteer to add content to the game, you simply cannot adhere to this demand in the current way.
Tradition
And finally, simultaniously the greatest threat and champion of the entire project. The notion that 'this is how it's done and this will never change'. New prospects are expected to enter the fold mindlessly, to follow suit and drone ahead untill a higher position can be attained through seniority.
New ideas are squashed without a second thought. Attempts to communicate to the developers that things should change are taken as an insult to the achievements the team has made. Attempts to persuade the owner to loosen the demands of quality or the strict adherance to 'self-made' content (i.e. Not allowing to use license-free websites that happens to have the texture readily available for commercial use for example) is seen as an attempt to weaken the game's stature as 'The greatest, most uniquest MMO ever!'.
But I won't be listened to. The underlying message will be ignored and my words will be dissected minutely for truths and half-truths or deleted. Below me will be angry posts by insulted people that defend the status quo. People that tell me to change the system myself if I have such great words! People that will reason we're doing the best we can since we're only volunteers! People that will reason with logic that what they're doing really works! That it's not us, but the people who must change!
I don't know why I wrote this as it doesn't matter. Nothing will be gained and nobody will suddenly open their mind or change their ways because of my words. Instead new words will be written and traditions defended regardless of the glaring truth; With the current ways of doing things, people are leaving faster than that they join.
-
I am sorry for your experience as a prospect theAuthor, I would say not everyone has such a bad experience. When I started this thread just over a year ago my only dev work was helping out with skunkworks project (which was a player only project no actual official devs) which was trying to do leather crafting. I would say that at times as a prospect things can seem to go slow and patience is needed, due to the fact that the devs are at times busy with life.
In the past Year I went from player -> Prospect -> Dev and have been able to contribute to new crafting with Data, Testing, art and quests. To be fair I will say that I have worked with prospects but also been busy with life and been slow (sometimes too slow) in responding. I also have had content rejected and it is disappointing but we do need quality control. I have looked back on some of the content I had rejected and later realised that it could be better.
What I am now hoping to achieve from this is to get several people to contribute a little bit to a project like maybe one quest and then when combined these parts they will make something bigger for all to enjoy.
-
Just looking at the requirements to join leave me out. I've never liked table-top rpg's and one of my complaints has been those that use that model instead of the 3d mechanics of the game. I could write some quests and books but how would it be received?
I am really happy with my friends that have joined the team, Taya, Jilare and Eredin. They have done great work. I can really see Taya's hand in some of the new quests. \\o//
I guess my main job has been to help new players get a good start, but I am not the only one doing it. We need to hold on to the new players.
-
I believe going back to the skunk works might be a good idea. I think it will be hard to get up front commitments.
-
As little time as I have to even login to PlaneShift nowadays, I'd like to contribute in some way. Yes, most likely with quests or books. My main focus, in a perfect world, is editing; a lot of the quests that are already ingame have not been edited and need it badly, in my opinion. I can't promise that anything will be done in a timely manner, but I can work on things in my free time as needed, unless I'm given free reign to pursue fixing some of the issues of which I'm most aware.
-
Just looking at the requirements to join leave me out. I've never liked table-top rpg's and one of my complaints has been those that use that model instead of the 3d mechanics of the game. I could write some quests and books but how would it be received?
I am really happy with my friends that have joined the team, Taya, Jilare and Eredin. They have done great work. I can really see Taya's hand in some of the new quests. \\o//
In my personal opinion the "requirements" need revised and are only guidelines. When it comes to table top games, I personally have never even played one and I am in Rules team. If you wish to do quests and books, they will need approved by Venalan and Mordaan, so I would suggest having outline of idea and speak to one of them.
Nice to see you know some of the devs who have done some great work in last year.
As little time as I have to even login to PlaneShift nowadays, I'd like to contribute in some way. Yes, most likely with quests or books. My main focus, in a perfect world, is editing; a lot of the quests that are already ingame have not been edited and need it badly, in my opinion. I can't promise that anything will be done in a timely manner, but I can work on things in my free time as needed, unless I'm given free reign to pursue fixing some of the issues of which I'm most aware.
The project I am thinking of may work for you as you could do one task when you have time to do one, without committing more longer term.
I believe going back to the skunk works might be a good idea. I think it will be hard to get up front commitments.
I liked skunkworks but it did lack structure. With right leadership it could be a success. I would be willing to support it on an unofficial basis. It would require those involved to sign the ABC License.
-
The problem with the editing idea, Suno, is that the only way to do it is to offer your thoughts to the devs responsible, that has been primarily Venalan. I have posted many edits of quest dialog on the tracker and they are generally well received. Other times I have put them in petitions or /told Venalan directly. These also have generally been well received. Of course many of the edits I have offered predate some of the current devs as I was doing it on the old tracker however long ago that was. I offered to take a dump and edit it but that will not happen ever. The only way to get that level of access is through the team.
Quite a few people use the tracker, it isn't all that difficult. As a player tester you do not need to get the settings right as to where the bug lies but it does help a lot if you try. Searching the tracker is a bit problematic as the basic search only looks at bug titles. To find out if your bug has been previously posted you need to do an advanced search and tick the comments and details check boxes. You can also select closed bugs at the same time as open ones or in a subsequent search. Some bugs considered especially exploitable get marked as confidential and cannot be found. If you are the person who reported it you will still be able to see it but otherwise you need to have privileges only offered to (possibly a subset of) the team. There is a tickbox on the "new task" form that you can select to make the bug confidential.
-
I gave settings a stab and it really wasn't that bad.
IRC didn't always work for me time-wise, so I used forum messages as needed to bridge the gaps.
Working on a team project like this is about helping the project to achieve it's goals. If you are more interested in achieving your own personal goals at the expense of the project, then that's not really useful to the team or project. If there is some overlap so that helping the team with its goals also helps you with your personal goals, then it's mutually beneficial and everyone wins. An example of this would be getting some practice with writing, art or development in return for offering your work.
As for using stuff from other sites, or not meeting the expected quality, that's just part of meeting the project's requirements. Leaning to produce quality work that meets expectations is important whether its for a leisure project like this or for your career.
One of the nice things about the PS team is that you are not pressured for work as you would be in the workplace. Things seem to move at a fairly slow pace, which works well for folks like myself who are busy in real life and have a hard time finding continuous time to work on side projects.
I've heard a lot of bitching about people just *handing over* their precious work for... for FREE. That's free as in, "I'm not getting the million dollars that my precious ancient Nolthrir poem or 3d stick with leaf and berry would land me elsewhere." It's not like we're sawing off arms and legs... and fingers.. and giving them away for FREE.
You contribute stuff for several reasons, such as:
* To help improve the game for yourself and everyone else.
* To enjoy being able to see your work in the game and others enjoying it.
* To give back. We've all played the game on Talad's dime. Why not give something back?
* To get practice at doing what we do.
-
The project I am thinking of may work for you as you could do one task when you have time to do one, without committing more longer term.
Sounds good! Send me a PM with details or direct me to where I need to go, and when I get a chance I'll see what I can do.
The problem with the editing idea, Suno, is that the only way to do it is to offer your thoughts to the devs responsible, that has been primarily Venalan.
I've been turned off from doing that, similar to the experience of TheAuthor. I was basically told "you're the only one to complain about this issue, so it'll stay as it is" (referring to the behavior of NPCs feeling more hokey than realistic, to put it simply). Of course, I'd love to discuss the problems in more detail with somebody, but I refuse to engage simply due to the way I was treated before. I've had similar experiences with Xillix, so at this point, I'm much more comfortable being given a task or being given the power to do something myself than trying to communicate an issue to a dev. I hate saying that, but this is a place to give such suggestions, my suggestion being perhaps to engage in a friendlier manner and consider the issues as if they hold some importance, even if they're somewhat outside of the primary objective.
Edit: On that note, the word "complain" is thrown around ridiculously loosely in this game (loading screens, forum sections, word of mouth, etc.), and it holds such a negative connotation that, by its very use, it discourages people from bothering to state any issues or wanting to talk to anybody. I won't deny that I can get on a rant about some things, but sending any sort of feedback or stating an issue should not immediately be deemed as "complaining." Sort of like saying "quit whining" or sarcastically stating, "Please, keep complaining, I love it." But maybe this is a little off-topic.
-
It is not impossible to get your point across but for something like you are talking about a forum post might be better than talking one on one with a dev. Sometimes it takes a few people to see what you are saying to notice and contribute their own point of view. Sometimes what we are expressing in a one on one setting isn't the best way it can be expressed. We know what we are talking about but other people from different background might interpret what we are saying in a completely different way than what we mean.
I would not take your quotation as a definitive no, never, can't happen, as much as I've heard what you have said but it does not seem to be a problem to me, go find support for your ideas elsewhere and maybe it will be expressed in a manner that I can better understand. Are you really asking me to rewrite x, y, z just because you don't like it? There is no guarantee that if you do get more support that anything will change but perhaps if I better understand your objections I'll be better able to tell you why it can't change or find a way to change it that does not reinvent the wheel but is more palatable.
People call me a spammer here because I post a lot of trial balloons --as well as other less relevant stuff-- but a lot of that is Does anyone else see what I see? I certainly get odd ideas about things. Sometimes you just have to throw a lot of mud at the teflon walls until some of it sticks.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean about npcs sounding 'hokey' but I guess it is the attempts to give personality to some of them such as that rathead Deelor with the funny accent, or the like. I find it kind of silly myself but we don't want them all to sound the same, that would be worse.
By all means do what you are comfortable with. I'm not posting specifically for your benefit, but for whoever can take encouragement from what I say in my response to your comments.
-
It is not impossible to get your point across but for something like you are talking about a forum post might be better than talking one on one with a dev. Sometimes it takes a few people to see what you are saying to notice and contribute their own point of view. Sometimes what we are expressing in a one on one setting isn't the best way it can be expressed. We know what we are talking about but other people from different background might interpret what we are saying in a completely different way than what we mean.
I would not take your quotation as a definitive no, never, can't happen, as much as I've heard what you have said but it does not seem to be a problem to me, go find support for your ideas elsewhere and maybe it will be expressed in a manner that I can better understand. Are you really asking me to rewrite x, y, z just because you don't like it? There is no guarantee that if you do get more support that anything will change but perhaps if I better understand your objections I'll be better able to tell you why it can't change or find a way to change it that does not reinvent the wheel but is more palatable.
People call me a spammer here because I post a lot of trial balloons --as well as other less relevant stuff-- but a lot of that is Does anyone else see what I see? I certainly get odd ideas about things. Sometimes you just have to throw a lot of mud at the teflon walls until some of it sticks.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean about npcs sounding 'hokey' but I guess it is the attempts to give personality to some of them such as that rathead Deelor with the funny accent, or the like. I find it kind of silly myself but we don't want them all to sound the same, that would be worse.
By all means do what you are comfortable with. I'm not posting specifically for your benefit, but for whoever can take encouragement from what I say in my response to your comments.
Guess I'll just quote the whole thing and respond in parts.
The earlier instance I cited regarding my previous attempts at feedback was actually from a time when it was asked in gossip whether anybody had any suggestions or feedback to give. I can't say how many people were online to see what I posted about NPCs in response to this offer, especially considering they were posting their own things at the same time unrelated to the discussion at hand, but very rarely have I actually tried to engage in one-on-ones with these issues. Maybe I should just throw out a forum post every time I see something, but I feel that it encourages a lot of the behavior that TheAuthor was mentioning, where the whole "volunteer" bandwagon comes into play and nothing gets done because it's either not worth fixing or everybody is a volunteer so it'll never get done and you should just be happy with the way it is.
That being said, the NPC thing is very widespread. Deelor is maybe one instance of what I would consider a fairly decent character, oddly enough. He's different and quirky in a way that I can believe. Levrus (the old Levrus) was the same way; but then, somebody wrote the Way quests, and Levrus changed from an old, busy magician without much time to speak who could manage to crack a joke every once in a while to some raving idiot whom I can't possibly imagine having a real-life conversation with. That's just one example, and everybody cites Levrus for different reasons, I know, but this is mine: it's his acting, not his long, drawn-out text, that bothers me. The old Levrus had a personality that I could get behind, almost cynical in nature, and you can still see it reflected in some of the slightly older quests, but the new Levrus and the other NPCs that cropped up around the same time as him are silly, at best. That's a harsh criticism, but I want to feel immersed, and I'm sure others do, too; the acting breaks that immersion with its trying-too-hard delivery.
-
Hmm well yes. Levrus is annoying. I don't really expect too much from the npcs. I find questing, by its very nature, to be pretty OOC. It is a means to an end. I don't really understand immersion either. How can npcs be in character or immersive when they are purely scripted? You can't chat them up or have obscure conversations with them. You can only follow the script.
It just goes to show how hard it is to find common ground sometimes. It is an unfortunate fact of life that many of the early dialog writers are gone, and it isn't always easy to fill those shoes. It doesn't seem that there are personality sketches made for the npcs that can be used to keep their characters consistent. I'm sure the devs try to do their best. It might actually be better if levrus wasn't the clearinghouse for the way quests and each way took care of their own recruiting. That might be the sort of approach that would resonate.
Well I'm all over the place now. I apologize if I have strayed too far from the topic at hand.
-
I gave settings a stab and it really wasn't that bad.
IRC didn't always work for me time-wise, so I used forum messages as needed to bridge the gaps.
Working on a team project like this is about helping the project to achieve it's goals. If you are more interested in achieving your own personal goals at the expense of the project, then that's not really useful to the team or project. If there is some overlap so that helping the team with its goals also helps you with your personal goals, then it's mutually beneficial and everyone wins. An example of this would be getting some practice with writing, art or development in return for offering your work.
As for using stuff from other sites, or not meeting the expected quality, that's just part of meeting the project's requirements. Leaning to produce quality work that meets expectations is important whether its for a leisure project like this or for your career.
One of the nice things about the PS team is that you are not pressured for work as you would be in the workplace. Things seem to move at a fairly slow pace, which works well for folks like myself who are busy in real life and have a hard time finding continuous time to work on side projects.
I've heard a lot of bitching about people just *handing over* their precious work for... for FREE. That's free as in, "I'm not getting the million dollars that my precious ancient Nolthrir poem or 3d stick with leaf and berry would land me elsewhere." It's not like we're sawing off arms and legs... and fingers.. and giving them away for FREE.
You contribute stuff for several reasons, such as:
* To help improve the game for yourself and everyone else.
* To enjoy being able to see your work in the game and others enjoying it.
* To give back. We've all played the game on Talad's dime. Why not give something back?
* To get practice at doing what we do.
Well, I understand and I've been told, many times, the exact arguments you mention.
Let me first mention my feelings about your post. Sorry if I offend or anything. I have a harsh writing style, I know.
- IRC and Forum messages are both not as good as the plethora of project management methods available. Forum threads become bloated fast, are relatively time-consuming to manage and offer no effective way of uploading large amounts of objects, previews, images, music etc.
IRC is faster, but lacks the ability to send and receive messages when a person isn't online, it doesn't have a any project management functions (not even a simple to-do list easily accessible for the managers), and everything is said temporarily before it fades into the logs. Finally it also lacks an easy way to upload large amounts of objects, previews, images or even large amounts of text. It's simply the plainest thing out there.
- The tradeoff of 'Receiving experience' in return for 'Doing work for the PS team' argument is not realistic. There are a million other ways somebody can get experience without the constrictive (setting-)rules and regulations that apply to anything you submit. Anybody that wants to become good in writing or drawing will eventually cut out the PS middle-man so they can freely express themselves.
- Expecting quality is reasonable, but the way how low quality objects/textures are dismissed until considered good enough kills motivation (Rework after rework is a killer of motivation) Why not accept the object/texture outright and place the object/texture in a public place where it can be improved by others at another time? Then you won't have to return to the same boring subject ten times and lose all your motivation to do so along the way.
- A low-pressure project such as this is great for those who are working hard and have little time... But does this mean the development process is designed to attract and retain people that have little time to spend on PS? And thus prefer a low-pressure project? Isn't this a critical oversight?
And why can't a project be low-pressure whilst actually progressing? By working together, using management tools and using all the available (wo-)manpower, in all it's forms, in all it's qualities, whenever it becomes available?
- Finally, the motivational factors you've mentioned. The reasons why people help:
* To help improve the game for yourself and everyone else.
* To enjoy being able to see your work in the game and others enjoying it.
* To give back. We've all played the game on Talad's dime. Why not give something back?
* To get practice at doing what we do.
These are all internal motivational factors. These all rely on the mentality that the person has undying love for the project and the belief that the project HAS to work. This is not something you can ask from people that haven't got any reason to do this yet.
The first two factors, improving the game and the ability to see(enjoy, experience) what you've done are basically the same. They rely on the notion that you have love for PS and actually care that they are used/placed in-game. However, this excludes the majority of recruits: Unconvinced people that are repelled by the slow and tedious process of actually getting your stuff in the game. The people that remain already have much love for the game. But how can you grow a culture that trains people to have an undying love for PS when the condition to be accepted in that culture is to have an undying love for PS?
The third factor... well... Realistically, nobody who joins today, yesterday or last month will really care whether they give anything back to Talad. They do not know the guy, they do not know how the system operates. Why should they care? Because they are inherently 'good' people?
And the fourth... What if you're already really, really good at what you do? Do you still want the experience for experience's sake?
Personally, I believe the greatest problem is the culture surrounding the development team. On the one hand they desperately ask the community to help, whilst on the other refuse to change a culture which is rigged toward attracting people, with little to no experience in their respective fields, have little time to spend and already have to be somewhat fanatical about the game.
It's not a culture of innovation, team-work, permanent self-improvement and out-of-the-box thinking. It's a culture of traditional top-down management and 'this-is-how-it's-done'-isms.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now. I've said all the above and again, it will probably sound harsher than if I would say it. I'll move on to the part where you can rip me to shreds based on my suggestions.
What do I believe needs to be changed
* There needs to be one volunteer that is dedicated to welcoming new recruits and sending them off to their respective leaders. They will seek out every complaint, thought, idea or feeling the recruit has. They will also act as a guardian and advocate for the recruits idea's, so that the recruit will feel welcomed, valued and understood.
* IRC, Forum. Keep them, but have a third management tool method available, capable of sending, accepting, completing and storing tasks and messages whether you are online or not. Preferably with a method of uploading several types of data. This can then be used to manage the new recruits instead of Email or IRC. I do not mean the library, the wiki or the Nexus. I mean a dedicated team and project management tool. This will also keep the workload for the recruitment volunteer at a minimum.
* All the information gathered by the Recruitment-volunteer in the management-tool will be quantified, stored and made into reports. This is to understand the motivation of recruits and so that the system can be adjusted accordingly and what could be improved in the team, backed by numbers rather than opinions.
* The notion 'Planeshift is not a democracy' should be killed right here, right now. Whilst I understand that PS is managed as a company, even managers of Fortune-500 companies (actually, especially those) actually listen to their employees. 'Planeshift is not a democracy' kills any innovation, any free thought that any recruit (or member) might bring into the development. It kills progress, it kills motivation and results in the loss of new recruits.
* The notion that people should be thankful to receive experience in exchange for working for this project should be removed from our collective memory. Instead, people should be thankful to be working in such a supportive collective that values the person work (in a way) regardless of its quality. This means accepting almost any work into a central database. If the quality is bad, the offending items will be shelved for improvement. If it is truly horrible, at least the recruit had his chance. But most importantly, the recruit will be kept exactly as busy with new things as he/she wants to be at the quality he/she can provide.
This way.
1. The recruit is less likely to leave the team on his/her own because of the (lack of) feedback he/she receives.
2. You can quickly produce as much content as possible in the few days that a volunteer has the highest amount of motivation, before the person recedes back into their normal life.
3. Give the next artist the choice: To rework or create from scratch, possibly saving them minutes to hours of work.
* In combination with the above, adjust any requirement to join the team to zero. Anybody (18+) should be capable of joining. It is simply not our place to demand anything from the volunteers at the start and it deters people who otherwise could become constructive members. Instead, the team should be a place where new recruits (some without skills) are trained and formed into advocates of the game.
New recruits should get the opportunity to first grow the love for a team that has their back, then the work they need to complete and only finally, the entire Planeshift project.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not saying this is the end-all, be-all. I'm not saying this is the golden key. I'm saying that clinging on to the notion that what we currently have is 'working' is detrimental to the entire project. I'm saying a system isn't and should never be 'working' because only when you admit its broken in some way, you can improve it.
But those are my ideas on the matter. Who would be the Recruitment-volunteer to set all this in motion? I don't know. It could be me, but only if I get a type of guarantee that people will at least have some willingness to test-drive my ideas.
Extra reading:
http://www.amanet.org/training/articles/The-Four-Factors-of-Motivation.aspx
-
Based on my experiences - I've seen development prospects walk in and do well and gain from the experience. I've also seen people walk in and quite quickly and easily change the direction of certain things. And then on the other hand I've seen prospects who annoy everyone because they make judgements without seeing the whole picture and because they seem to think they are better than and know more about the game than anyone else. Does this mean their criticism is 100% useless or misplaced? No. There are issues and there will always be issues because [insert all the things others have already said] and some of them may be possible to improve on. But generally there is a time and a way to communicate those issues and, if it's not done well, it shouldn't be too surprising if a dev limits their communication with people who are basically telling them "everything you're doing is wrong and even though I've only been here a day I clearly know better than you so change everything!" (Exaggeration yes, but it should give the idea.)
In the end, so much is down to how a person presents things.
If you want to help you should be:
1 - realistic about your expectations. Don't expect immediate access to everything or to be given ultra important projects to work on right away. But do expect to be given a fair chance to become useful and to see your work in game if you stick with it.
2 - honest about how much time you have and what we should expect from you. It's completely possible to contribute even if you don't have much free time, but it's best if the devs know this in advance when possible.
3 - cooperative. You usually won't change things unless you work with and then from within them. If you want to change how something is done, approach it slowly and be positive. Remember everything is a two way process. Suggestions and criticisms should be possible from either side so long as they are presented politely.
I recommend spending some time talking to one of the devs in the area you might be interested in before committing as well. Find out if it works for 'both' sides before jumping in. I've known a lot of people who have said they'd love to help but they are scared they won't be good enough or worried they don't have enough time - but you won't know this unless you look into it.
Closing note, just so that false impressions aren't left to stand as fact - IRC and forums are not the only tools used by the developers. Just because access to everything isn't handed out immediately doesn't mean nothing else is ever used.
-
If anything Taya proves the points made by TheAuthor. Basically saying if a proto-dev situation doesn't work out, it is the proto-dev's fault for failing to present correctly.
Not impressed.
People skills matter here, in addition to tech and game skills. While I think that is part of the point Taya is trying to make (although it was just made, from the other side of the fence), making that point while treating prospects without respect and without taking their opinions on board is a complete failure to have people skills.
I thank all the gods under the crystal that the devs I know do not behave this way, and I apologize if I offend any of them with my criticism of Taya's post.
But I feel very strongly that if I were a prospect dev, after reading that reply, I would want nothing to do with Taya or any part of the game Taya has control over.
-
Regarding Taya's impressions ... I believe there are different situations in different times and different teams. I was involved in the development as 2D/3D artist some time ago, and I was not too happy with the situation when I was given the task of the Art Asset Manager: In these times, there was a lack of communication between departments and from the superior of the own department. I would have expected to get notified for a review before releasing art; if that was the case, I would have had a chance to reject some technical mistakes before causing issues in game (most prominent example: the recently fixed wrong mipmaps of transparent textures like fences, grass tufts, trees ... I never had the chance to fix them correctly due to a lack of access to the original material, before conversion to DDS). Finally, I was dismissed and blamed for a lack of activity, despite asking for months to provide required information and assets to manage. Similar problems already appeared while working on some art, when I misunderstood the desired attributes of items by only reading a brief item description, which could have been avoided by knowing the brief plot of the quest this item belongs to (here as example, "Ruby Ring" is not a metal ring with a small piece of ruby, but a whole ring cut out of a big ruby).
To put the criticism above into perspective, it was briefly after a lot of trust into department leading developers got lost because one of them went on an own pace; this lack of trust separated departments, nobody except the leader should have known the whole concept, and especially not have access to all the original material, the treasury of the game. Since that, this former developer tried to develop an own game, but that project appears to be less active than PlaneShift today.
Contributors, prospects and developers can only work successfully if they can trust each other and think for and together with each other, share opinions and facts, and sense the requirements of staff they give tasks to. Even though I am less involved today, I believe this is much better today than it was when asset management didn't work due to a lack of cooperation — due to a lack of trust.
-
Pierre - I don't really mind if you criticise me. I have always been open to it and I've found that being able to take it generally means that when I deliver it in turn I am listened to. And that's been both as a player in the past approaching devs with ideas, and now as someone working on the game offering and taking criticism in turn.
What I am saying is that issues identified in the thread are often caused by player expectations and that it's healthier for both sides if those expectations are realistic before someone contributes. It is completely possible to contribute in a way that works for both the game and the person contributing, but everyone has different requirements, different ways of working, different availability, different personalities and different responsibilities outside the game that are more important. And some tasks need more or less interaction and coordination between a player submitting work and the dev team. There has to be the right balance depending on what the player wants to offer and what they expect back.
It's better for everyone to talk in advance to see if this balance is likely to be there. And any one person may find it is or isn't with different developers, again because everyone has their own requirements and own way of working.
Basically I am recommending talk and discussion before a person jumps in with huge expectations that they can change everything about the game. A person can surely change some things though in time.
I've also seen prospects get better treatment in the time since I have been here and it's something I've said I want to see more of.
-
Taya, understood, and appreciate the calm diffusive response.
The issue to me is that there were many valid well articulated points made by TheAuthor, none of which were addressed.
Just "adjust expectations." Yes, that is important, more than that, it is critical.
It is also critical for someone on the dev team, if this thread is of interest to them, to address the issues, make people listening in feel like if they join as prospects, the timeline of response might be better.
That their proposals for changes might get heard, and if their work is not appropriate and/or not up to par, that suggestions for improvement or possible shelving might happen in a motivating way, in a non-discouraging way, and in a reasonable time frame.
It's better to have no response at all than to have a response that proves the point being made against becoming a prospect.
-
Now. I've said all the above and again, it will probably sound harsher than if I would say it. I'll move on to the part where you can rip me to shreds based on my suggestions.
What do I believe needs to be changed
* There needs to be one volunteer that is dedicated to welcoming new recruits and sending them off to their respective leaders. They will seek out every complaint, thought, idea or feeling the recruit has. They will also act as a guardian and advocate for the recruits idea's, so that the recruit will feel welcomed, valued and understood.
good idea who is willing to do it 24/7? we're looking for one since quite some time
* All the information gathered by the Recruitment-volunteer in the management-tool will be quantified, stored and made into reports. This is to understand the motivation of recruits and so that the system can be adjusted accordingly and what could be improved in the team, backed by numbers rather than opinions.
numbers are not going to approve a task, people do. It's always been like that in almost any project especially those involving art and graphic.
* The notion 'Planeshift is not a democracy' should be killed right here, right now. Whilst I understand that PS is managed as a company, even managers of Fortune-500 companies (actually, especially those) actually listen to their employees. 'Planeshift is not a democracy' kills any innovation, any free thought that any recruit (or member) might bring into the development. It kills progress, it kills motivation and results in the loss of new recruits.
No, the majority of the open projects out there, including opensurce projects are a "dictatorship of workers": who work on a project has the final say. Would be pretty odd if the first one passing by could "force" someone to work (not paid) on what he wants. Aside that I always listen to new ideas, and if they're good enough, technically possible and in line with the project goals I implement them.
* The notion that people should be thankful to receive experience in exchange for working for this project should be removed from our collective memory. Instead, people should be thankful to be working in such a supportive collective that values the person work (in a way) regardless of its quality. This means accepting almost any work into a central database. If the quality is bad, the offending items will be shelved for improvement. If it is truly horrible, at least the recruit had his chance. But most importantly, the recruit will be kept exactly as busy with new things as he/she wants to be at the quality he/she can provide.
Ok so you're basically saying we should pile up stuff that doesn't meet the project requirements? Maybe you don't know some stuff are easier to re-start from scratch than spending tons of hours fixing something buggy. It takes more time.
Also have you ever trained someone? Maybe you didn't or you should know training is time expensive, difficult and when you finally did it none can guarantee the trainee doesn't leave right away. I do it nevertheless but it should be noted that is not a trivial task.
* In combination with the above, adjust any requirement to join the team to zero. Anybody (18+) should be capable of joining. It is simply not our place to demand anything from the volunteers at the start and it deters people who otherwise could become constructive members. Instead, the team should be a place where new recruits (some without skills) are trained and formed into advocates of the game.
New recruits should get the opportunity to first grow the love for a team that has their back, then the work they need to complete and only finally, the entire Planeshift project.
If someone want to join I've never said no, but still the learning curve is steep.
Finally, the motivational factors you've mentioned. The reasons why people help:
* To help improve the game for yourself and everyone else.
* To enjoy being able to see your work in the game and others enjoying it.
* To give back. We've all played the game on Talad's dime. Why not give something back?
* To get practice at doing what we do.
These are all internal motivational factors. These all rely on the mentality that the person has undying love for the project and the belief that the project HAS to work. This is not something you can ask from people that haven't got any reason to do this yet.
Internal motivation is what we're looking for. People that haven't got any reason to do this yet means they have no love for the project, so what can we offer them? Money? Fame? No sorry, we don't have any of both, if that's what they're looking for I suggest they look somewhere else because with PS they would loose their time.
The first two factors, improving the game and the ability to see(enjoy, experience) what you've done are basically the same. They rely on the notion that you have love for PS and actually care that they are used/placed in-game. However, this excludes the majority of recruits: Unconvinced people that are repelled by the slow and tedious process of actually getting your stuff in the game. The people that remain already have much love for the game. But how can you grow a culture that trains people to have an undying love for PS when the condition to be accepted in that culture is to have an undying love for PS?
by playing the game and enjoying it?
The third factor... well... Realistically, nobody who joins today, yesterday or last month will really care whether they give anything back to Talad. They do not know the guy, they do not know how the system operates. Why should they care? Because they are inherently 'good' people?
I'm pretty sure "give anything back to Talad" means "give back to the project". The game is free to play, cost nothing, people that develop it are not paid, the server is donated, if someone doesn't absolutely feel thankful at all for that, well ... good luck with his conscience.
-
good idea who is willing to do it 24/7? We're looking for one since quite some time
Well, the point I'm trying to make is that if you have the right tools, nobody needs to be on 24/7 anymore.
With the right tools:- Tasks can be assigned to members and queued so new members always have something to do.
- Reminders and other messages can be (auto-)sent for specific tasks when people aren't responding anymore.
- People can receive, store and respond to alerts and messages on their smartphone, reducing the total amount of effort needed to communicate with the team to 'getting your phone out and swiping to the left'.
- The recruitment leader would get an alert at the precise moment a new member arrives and he can offer help right away.
- The system remembers all the recruits that pass by. If we combine this log with their thoughtprocess and feelings of certain aspects of development, we can improve those aspects.
This way we act in a way to reasonably counter (respectively):
- People that leave because there was nothing to do / nobody responded
- People that leave because they forgot about their project, just need a little motivation or are afraid to ask for help.
- People that leave because they feel communication via PC only is tedious.
- People that leave because they feel lost and awkward because they don't know who they're supposed to talk to.
- People that leave because of feelings, thought or motivations that I haven't mentioned yet.
numbers are not going to approve a task, people do. It's always been like that in almost any project especially those involving art and graphic.
I believe you misunderstood me (I don't understand otherwise) but with 'data' I meant asking recruits (via a survey of sorts) how they feel about the project, tasks, team etc.
A question could be: "When I entered the chatroom I felt welcome" - Highly Agree - Agree - Neutral - Disagree - Highly Disagree.
If the responses are:
1x HA
2x A
3x N
5x D
2x HD
Then you're apparently doing something wrong. That's what I mean with numbers, not opinions.
No, the majority of the open projects out there, including opensurce projects are a "dictatorship of workers": who work on a project has the final say. Would be pretty odd if the first one passing by could "force" someone to work (not paid) on what he wants. Aside that I always listen to new ideas, and if they're good enough, technically possible and in line with the project goals I implement them.
I don't understand the first part, but the second part (Aside that I [...] implement them.) is great! However, I still feel we should move away from opinion (Who decides what's good enough?) towards a data driven implementation process. If 5+ people tell you that the communication between teams is bad (and somebody wrote that down), then you simply can't deny that somewhere there's something going wrong. It might be still your opinion that you're doing the best there is, but that isn't actually relevant anymore
This is what I mean with listening to your workers. If you listen to 5+ separate workers and they tell you that communication between teams is bad, and you respectfully tell them that you feel that communication is OK because you have all these examples of when it went well... Well, that's not actually listening and it causes recruits to simply walk away...
Ok so you're basically saying we should pile up stuff that doesn't meet the project requirements? Maybe you don't know some stuff are easier to re-start from scratch than spending tons of hours fixing something buggy. It takes more time.
Also have you ever trained someone? Maybe you didn't or you should know training is time expensive, difficult and when you finally did it none can guarantee the trainee doesn't leave right away. I do it nevertheless but it should be noted that is not a trivial task.
With this point I purely meant 3D-models, textures etc. You're correct on coding, sorry I wasn't clear.
What I meant was that dev-members should handle contributions in a different way. Rather than criticism (no matter how constructive!!) and asking for (immediate) rework, it's better to accept the image, store it somewhere and ask the original artist (or a new artist) a week later to rework the image / model because you found something wrong with it. This is easily achieved by creating alerts of sort that remind you automatically after a week, so you can bring it up again with the original artist.
That way you change a negative and boring experience (rework rework rework) to a positive, gratifying experience. The new member is happy because he's done something for the team/game he loves and thus willing to repeat that process again. Rework isn't even that bad anymore because the artist had time (it's easier for the artist to spot the flaws) and other work (the work isn't as boring anymore) in between. Eventually you get to the same spot (great work) but via a more effective (albeit longer) route.
If someone want to join I've never said no, but still the learning curve is steep.
Agreed. It's still stated a bit harsh on the PS website though (for example: Several years of tabletop Roleplaying. That's a small pond to fish in!) and the learning curve is indeed steep. But I really feel that a 'good experience' (with the recruitment management process I've described above, or something similar) softens that curve immensely and gives motivation for a recruit to return when he/she hits a rough spot in the production process or in real-life.
Internal motivation is what we're looking for. People that haven't got any reason to do this yet means they have no love for the project, so what can we offer them? Money? Fame? No sorry, we don't have any of both, if that's what they're looking for I suggest they look somewhere else because with PS they would lose their time.
Internal motivation is why people join. External motivation is why they stay. A fun team, clear communication between members, up-to-date information in the Dev-libraries, diverse tasks etc. Parallels can be drawn with Herzberg's Motivators and Hygiene factorsSource (http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newTMM_74.htm).
* Motivators(Internal Motivation) are things such as achievement and responsibility ("I want to join because I want to add to the game that I love!") and cause the person to feel good (Satisfaction)
* Hygiene(External Motivation) factors are things such as policies and working conditions. They do not cause good feelings, but they prevent bad feelings (Dissatisfaction) from happening.
So no money and fame, but a well-oiled, communicative team that is a pleasure to work with and a nice system that respects new visions and idea's. In fact, every day in real life, people take (large) cuts in salary to work in a new company ONLY because of the positive culture and attitude the new company or his/her new team has towards their ideas. Isn't that an interesting thought?
-
Even the SkunkWorks project was kind of a mess for me, personally. I showed up to the weekly meetings at first (in which I felt rather unheard, by the way), then they seemed to dwindle, and after months of what I thought was inactivity I found out that things had been moved to the German channel for all that time. The impression I got from the experience was "Welcome to the team now GTFO". The worst part? I joined because I wanted to make a positive change, yet the lack of cohesion I wanted to help fix was the what squeezed me out of the team.
-
It was SkunkWorks that realized Leatherworking - so everyone using leatherworking should have a thought on contributing can work.
(Actually, Minks was doing almost all the work *hails*)
Therefore, I don't regard SkunkWorks a mess, though there would be room for improvement organization-wise.
-
They let a willing, eager member of the team fall to the wayside. Things are at least a little messed up if that happens.
-
What I meant was that dev-members should handle contributions in a different way. Rather than criticism (no matter how constructive!!) and asking for (immediate) rework, it's better to accept the image, store it somewhere and ask the original artist (or a new artist) a week later to rework the image / model because you found something wrong with it. This is easily achieved by creating alerts of sort that remind you automatically after a week, so you can bring it up again with the original artist.
That way you change a negative and boring experience (rework rework rework) to a positive, gratifying experience. The new member is happy because he's done something for the team/game he loves and thus willing to repeat that process again. Rework isn't even that bad anymore because the artist had time (it's easier for the artist to spot the flaws) and other work (the work isn't as boring anymore) in between. Eventually you get to the same spot (great work) but via a more effective (albeit longer) route.
So are you saying a prospect who submitted an art asset which is not good enough to be used (and so it's been stored somewhere) would be glad and happy knowing his work will never end up in game? Or are you suggesting a dev should lie saying "yes of course your work is good and will end up in game ... not now, in a few weeks ... or months ... or ...".
This would be mocking them, and I've never seen anyone being happy to be made a mockery.
If someone is not skilled enough for a task, he can choose to hone his skill by putting a lot of effort into it, or give up. Simply giving the illusion people are good enough is of no help for both.
However when a prospect working for a department feels like he's not fitted but he's still willing to help it's not the first time we give him the chance to try something else.
-
Agree with Eonwind here - if I were a prospect submitting work, and the work was not right (did not fit the game or was of poor quality) I'd rather know this up front so I could work on my skills or on creating work more suited to our settings.
There are better and worse ways to communicate that information. E.g. if I were told "this doesn't work because we don't think hot pink stones should pave the roads in Amdeneir," I like it. I can argue why fuchsia goes really well with Klyros wings, but ultimately I would be totally ok with why my work doesn't work.
Similarly, if I made a model for Lemurs, supposedly the most beautiful creatures under the crystal, and they are basically stick figures, then someone can say "this work is not up to the level of our other races and we need it to be" and I must go back to the drawing board, or try to make hot pink paving stones.
However, there are ways to give criticism that just kill the motivation and demoralize the artist. If the art asset is mostly good but needs alterations, it's best to say that up front - "good work, impressed - it needs to have this or that done to it before it can be considered for use."
Just saying "do this or that" then after a re-work "ok now do this or that" without any acknowledgement that the work is decent (or appreciation for the effort) is not the way.
Back to people skills I guess? But maybe this is what you all were talking about with "internal motivation" - in the sense that if I believe in my work enough and love the project, I wouldn't need someone to say "looks good" before saying "fix it up and we'll consider it."
That kind of internal motivation works for only a subset of human beings - I personally have it in a limited way. When I submit my work to my advisor/collaborators, I can stand criticisms without any positive feedback up to a point. But I definitely need people to appreciate me and how I work in order for me to do my best work. Maybe many others are like this too.
In fact, I only know some mad mathematicians who don't work like this - they could not care less about what other people say, even people advanced in the field - they work because they love the work and nothing can de-motivate them.
TL;DR: Honesty is the best policy.
-
Devs and GMs are nothing more than overwrought people spending their precious free time, when they could be with their families or playing the game, battling an ever increasing backlog to bring new and exciting things to the community.
People with feelings, exactly like prospects.
What do I believe needs to be changed
* There needs to be one volunteer that is dedicated to welcoming new recruits and sending them off to their respective leaders. They will seek out every complaint, thought, idea or feeling the recruit has. They will also act as a guardian and advocate for the recruits idea's, so that the recruit will feel welcomed, valued and understood.
I would love to see that and I'm not alone. That little word “volunteer” illustrates the problem. The system of tracking, work assignments, positive feedback and storage of work that isn't quite ready would require at least one person to spend all of their PS-dev hours managing all the relationships between individual devs and prospects. Are you the volunteer we need?
There have been 18 applications to the engine department since Jan 2013. I have personally attempted to contact all of them. Every single one. With multiple emails. Mostly I just get no response. I constantly encourage and offer private, personal help to members of the community. I even spent time with a couple people that were fresh out of college and had great enthusiasm but little knowledge, in an attempt to get them ready to apply. After all this, two recruits have produced results : Sangy was a capable prospect who essentially communicated only with me, and only via email, produced the 'renameable containers' patch then although we were on friendly terms he vanished. Real life came first. Natoka is a capable prospect who continues to crank out good features at a pace that I can barely keep up with ( \o/ a happy problem to have! ). That's less than 5%.
Well, the point I'm trying to make is that if you have the right tools, nobody needs to be on 24/7 anymore.
What specific tool did you have in mind and would you be willing to set it up and maintain it for us?
However, there are ways to give criticism that just kill the motivation and demoralize the artist.
...
TL;DR: Honesty is the best policy.
Then substitute "dev" for "artist" in your statement, and consider your attitude toward Taya. I believe you owe her a sincere apology. It was not constructive criticism but rather, as you say, demoralizing...and to more Devs and GMs than just Taya.
Devs are often called all manner of bad things. Engine devs specifically are called idiots, stupid, incompetent and lazy (search the forum if you doubt me) primarily because we didn't do things someone else's way on their time schedule. It's really a vicious cycle - We cannot bear a steady diet of insults and attacks without either developing a very thick skin or quitting in disgust. IF we develop a thick skin then we become subject to more attacks simply because of that have a thick skin.
Internal motivation is why people join. External motivation is why they stay.
That kind of internal motivation works for only a subset of human beings ...
But I definitely need people to appreciate me and how I work in order for me to do my best work. Maybe many others are like this too.
You are SO right !! Our source of external motivation is the community. If you want to see things getting better then become one of those positive people. To Those people who tell me they enjoy my stuff and truly appreciate my efforts – YOU are the ones that make the insults bearable and the job worthwhile. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
-
I've actually had a fairly good experience with the dev team. But then again I'm pretty much just a book writer and a quest writer. I make suggestions about what might be cool to put in the game (the courtship books, Numbers in the DR, whatever) and I have a sort if take it, leave it or tweak it relationship with the team. If they don't think a particular idea will work I just let it go. No big for me. For instance, I had suggested that letting author-characters actually have stories published in Jayose's library might be cool, and though it hasn't happened yet they've been open to it and are considering some submissions.
/me shrugs.
What people have to realize is that everyone is working during their free time, so really, TheAuthor, it seems to me that much of your commentary is actually applicable to devs themselves. I'm not saying there cannot be any improvement, but I think folks have to also acknowledge that everyone is operating under a completely (or almost completely) rewardless system. Sure, I can agree with you that there needs to be more comaraderie, and maybe more activity. That said, a lot of the issue there is sheerly lack of resources. The team isn't all that big, and I'd wager part of the degenerative cycle is like this:
Prospects sign up, but so few out of those that do actually put forth effort
Over time devs become jaded due to the lack of effort, and on top of it, jaded over the insulting manner of some others (as per Eredin's remarks about being called stupid)
Because the dev team seems hard to penetrate to reach a respected level to provide feedback, folks like you, Author, who DO actually want to contribute and perhaps WOULD stick around get understandably bitter, or at least disheartened.
The entire fiasco becomes a negatively sprawling us versus them. Like most things in life there's no one side to it. From this conversation, personally I think that:
The prospects need to acknowledge that, for the moment, there are limited people resources. I know it's tough, but change doesn't happen overnight either. Patience can be key, and as PS is in a sort of lull right now it'll take time to implement any suggested changes. This has nothing to do with dev competancy (or lack of it) but rather their balancing dev work with their amount of actual free time.
The dev team should reintiate taking polls for certain suggestions. Prospects, if they see something they really want changed, can put forth a specific topic to be voted upon. If the vote is positive, then the prospect who put forth the vote should be allowed to help mediate the change they want to see in the system, working in tandem with a dev. To be effective as a community, everybody needs to be open to suggestion, so long as it is actually provided in a manner that IS constructive. I will throw in that Taya-bop has always been amicable towards me and I've observed her open to suggestions from others, so whether one reads her single forum reply as negative or not, it's certainly no example of her dev-bearing as a whole.
These are just my two cents, flame away!
-
Taya seemed extremely chill about my post. I was harsh, and I apologize for being too harsh. I have a problem with the way Taya interacts with people who criticize and how he or she thinks about events. But it is completely correct to say that me being harsh makes matters worse. And I could have said what I said without that.
I was clear that I have no problem with other devs, and in fact apologized in advance to them.
However, that has just been modified. Whoever "Eredin" is, if not Taya, is out of line to make a new forum identity to bash me and stick up for someone said explicitly that she can take criticism.
If you were offended and wanting to demand an apology, Taya, better to say it to me up front and not have other devs coming in here for one post identities to do the dirty work.
Cheers, I'm off the thread but will certainly still read it. I feel like the issues are getting listened to now, and discussed realistically with listening on both sides, not so much deflection. I'm happy about that.
-
Pierre, with your attitude I can see why you might have a problem with Taya, or anyone else for that matter. As for your remark about Eredin, he has been around for some time. Maybe he never felt the need to post before this and I can see why he choose to now.
-
Eredin has indeed been around for a very long time, I think a year, maybe more? And has attended every dev meeting I've bothered to be at.
It's kinda mean to accuse Taya not only of making a bash-alt title, especially since from what I read the post wasn't bashing (and if it was, then you must agree your post at Taya was as well,), but then to say she's having other people fight for her, when it's entirely possible and probable that Eredin was merely sticking up for a friend. Escalating harshness works this way, Pierre, but there's no need to make those passive aggressive attacks upon Taya's character, and in this case I can say they were both 100% entirely incorrect, if anyone reading wanted to know.
-
Sorry Waesed, Mariana, not constructive, not helpful, in my opinion. Not interested in being bashed without any contribution to the discussion.
I will still post on other threads and give my two cents. I will still write up the GM events that I love. But I'm off this thread. Bash away peeps.
-
Pointing out that your accusations were wrong is not bashing, and anyone reading is capable of telling you the same. Telling you both that Taya is not Eredin and that Eredin is not simply doing her dirty work, both things I know as fact, is merely me dismantling two things you accused that were wrong, which is itself a completely valid thing to do. I have not made any negative comments upon your character, nor have I intention to do so, I am merely pointing out how your accusations can be hurtful. I'm sorry if you are unable to see that, and if you felt I was attacking you.
Another thing I think the devs either are doing or might be contemplating doing is letting players take brief control of GM events. I think, at least in a scenario where it's a trustworthy player proven to stimulate engaging RP, this is a wonderful idea. After many event hostings, such a player may even be able to cooperate with a dev or a gm to use certain pcs to make longer reaching, story oriented, NPC-involved plotlines.
Any thoughts on this?
-
If we can't discusss without beeing called "bashers", we wont go far... But i think THERE is the main problem no ? You can't take critiscism without a spoon of sugar? Com'on.
NO ONE of the tasks asked to either Devs, prospects or GMs are easy. It's never something like : "Hey here is my work ! Thanks, wonderful *implemented*" :D. There is always 67 steps before the work is even tested.
There is always something that is to take into account and which, in the end, ask to rework the submitted work : lore not fitting, impossible to do engine wise because totaly crazy, too long for a quest, etc... And EVEN DEVS has to abandon some ideas because of those reason.
In the other hand, it's not easy for a new prospect to enter a team that work together since years. It's true, not easy. But maybe it's due to the number of people coming and going too. Still it's possible and trust me, some are extremly welcoming and do all to help you feel listenned and supported. But in the other hand if you can't take criticism such as : " We can't do this." than you are just not made to work in team. That is all. Nobody is perfect, i know no team where there is no problem at some point. It's HUMAN ! ::|
And i still, i really still prefer to have a "NO, YOUR ARE SILLY" kind of answer then no answer at all, it's the worse thing possible to do to a possible prospect.
All in all, either you feel like working in for the game (motivation reason is enterly up to you), either you don't. I don't think there is a middle ground here.
Side note : We should avoid going personnal, it's all except a personnal affair. Honestly thought, i don't see the problem with Taya's first post o.O' I re-read it several time and still don't see where is the problem ? As i understand it, she was just trying to make the balance, it's not all on the Dev shoulders...
To the Project Dev Topic now
TUATHANACH ASKED :
1: Are people interested in contributing to either a: a project lead by me or b: the game in general?
2: Do people have ideas to increase/encourage community involvement in game development?
1/a. Should be hell of a fun !
2. I think despite the tone of the post, TheAuthor gave some ideas to improve the involvement. Dev should atleast ANSWER to the prospect, give a feedback beeing negative or not. In the other hand prospect should be ready to take criticism and ready to rework several time on their stuff. It's no BIG DEAL! Doesn't mean the work is bad, it's just normal. To give an image to this : You have to make a square fit in a circle. Yes it ask several work around :D
-
Cheers, I'm off the thread but ....
... But I'm off this thread.
(http://cdnpix.com/show/imgs/0ea58e7d021ec6613a51f966b381d2d0.jpg)
-
Okay.
I wasn't going to post more in this thread because I didn't see it leading anywhere constructive and my opinion there hasn't really changed. But the portions of the community who seem to find this kind of attack acceptable completely sicken me, and because I am 'still' having this directed at me, even after what Pierre called my 'calm diffusive' reply to his original attack, I will say my piece.
I have a problem with the way Taya interacts with people who criticize and how he or she thinks about events.
I think you have a problem with polite discussion when it doesn't immediately follow your chain of thoughts and that you like dishing out accusations and then react poorly when people give back. (Note how much personally directed negatively from your side it's taken before I direct any back at you personally in turn.)
Now tell me, why is it a bad thing to point out that prospects are more likely to get a good or bad experience depending on what they expect and how they present themselves? Are you expecting me to sugar-coat the whole experience so that people who have the wrong expectations will join? Do you realise that the reason some prospects are less than satisfied is because of the expectations they start with? Did you pay any attention to where I pointed out that it is completely possible to have a positive experience by contributing? Did you notice that I advised discussion and noted that there are things prospects should get back from the team in turn?
If your opinion about me is shared and others feel I truly deserve your attack, I will gladly step down from my position and leave the game.
I was clear that I have no problem with other devs, and in fact apologized in advance to them.
Yet oddly, I doubt you'd find many who disagree with my stance, if any. You do seem to have an issue with Eredin as well and he's one of the most active devs.
Whoever "Eredin" is, if not Taya, is out of line to make a new forum identity to bash me and stick up for someone said explicitly that she can take criticism.
Your apologies about your level of harshness are completely worthless when you immediately spring into a new accusation like this. I am not Eredin. Eredin is an established and long term member of the PS community who has tirelessly contributed to the game in return for far too little acknowledgement from the playerbase. But he gets on with it and continues to make the game better whenever he is able to, regardless of what's thrown at him.
Is it a requirement to have an existing account in order for him to give his opinion here and do you think that everyone who reads the forum has made an account? There are a lot of people who only speak up when they feel a need to do so and don't often feel the need. I'd assume that's the case here; he finally had something he wanted to say, so made one.
Also:
Just because someone can handle criticism, does that mean they should not get an apology where deserved?
If you were offended and wanting to demand an apology, Taya, better to say it to me up front and not have other devs coming in here for one post identities to do the dirty work.
If this is meaning to imply that Eredin is a 'dev alt' who was hiding his ID to comment under my request, you are misguided. I didn't ask him to post and that's his main ID. If you have any doubts, go and check the listing of team members.
As for 'demanding' an apology - I don't feel any real need to. I find your manner of discussion insulting, negative, derogatory and generally unwanted and undeserved and, though you occasionally seem to veer back to the more reasonable, I have absolutely no faith that any apology from you would be sincere in any way at all. You seem to consistently jump to the worst possible conclusion, suspecting me of negative and deceptive action based on... what? I feel it's a pity, because if you learned to be constructive in your approach you could probably make a difference here.
I'm interested in engaging with players who want to make the game better - not with players who are out to attack me and/or any other dev or GM. To the first group, I am and have been willing to give as much spare time as I have available. I'm also generally the one who is calling for criticism and feedback for the teams and have actively fought for greater acknowledgement of the work done by prospective developers. But when 'criticism' crosses the line from constructive to insulting, I really rather have no part in it.
So my cards are on the table. My goal is to help this game and make it better for the players. If Pierre is correct and the game would be better without me, let me know and I'll be gone. There is no point me being here if I am indeed the thing that makes people not want to help.
With that said, apologies for the long post. I've no interests in prolonging this discussion anymore and it's already 'too much' for me because it's not what I'm here for.
-
If your opinion about me is shared and others feel I truly deserve your attack, I will gladly step down from my position and leave the game.
No, you can't I have a share of 100 votes :)
However, that has just been modified. Whoever "Eredin" is, if not Taya, is out of line to make a new forum identity to bash me and stick up for someone said explicitly that she can take criticism.
Attacking Eredin was really unfair, SVN commits really speak of his hard work and commitment to the project http://sourceforge.net/projects/planeshift/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/planeshift/). I think apologies are due.
To the Project Dev Topic now
TUATHANACH ASKED :
1: Are people interested in contributing to either a: a project lead by me or b: the game in general?
2: Do people have ideas to increase/encourage community involvement in game development?
1/a. Should be hell of a fun !
2. I think despite the tone of the post, TheAuthor gave some ideas to improve the involvement. Dev should atleast ANSWER to the prospect, give a feedback beeing negative or not. In the other hand prospect should be ready to take criticism and ready to rework several time on their stuff. It's no BIG DEAL! Doesn't mean the work is bad, it's just normal. To give an image to this : You have to make a square fit in a circle. Yes it ask several work around :D
2. True. I really think to improve the communication and welcoming of new people in prospects we really need someone dedicated like an PR dev or something.
-
This thread makes me want to sing.
/me sings "home, home on the rage, where the dear and the anti-nope prey, where frequently heard are discouraging words and the pies are not moldy all day"
It is quite possible to contribute without joining the team without getting your knickers in a knot. I've been doing so for years. At least my way reduces the expectation that my suggestions will be adopted. I have seen quite a few adopted such as /mount being turned into a toggle. Many have been rejected, such as the recently closed smelting finished goods. Whooptidooo. It is all good. If you can't stand the heat of the campfire you can still toss pine cones in from the shadows.
-
Often people look at a project like PlaneShift and decide that it would be better if only the developers would do things the way that person thinks they should be done. That person always has a long list of very specific guidelines that should be implemented because it just makes more sense, to themselves. But in software, idea people are a dime a dozen. Persons that can actually work within an existing system to develop code and/or assets that work within that system are very rare. Taya and Eredin are two separate people who have proven themselves to be able to do this. Each of the current developers has run the gauntlet of frustration in this project. The problem with telling them, and the the other developers, how it should be done, is that the requirements and constraints of the project were not necessarily all chosen to fit some perfect world scenario. Dependencies and caveats rule the project in software development, and software needs to be developed using other software. If you are not able to demonstrate enough patience to work to a level of understanding within a project, then that project is not for you. Pierre, you come across clearly as wanting to lead this project, and you think that you are capable of doing so obviously, but you have demonstrated no aptitude for it so far within this thread.
-
I can assure you nobody wants you gone, Taya-bop. I haven't actually managed to get to any of the new events m'self, but from what I hear people are liking their increasing frequency and such. Good job to the team for trying to stir some things up. Maybe I'll try to jump on board and help out if I find the time/if assistance is needed or wanted running events. :thumbup:
-
Whoever "Eredin" is, if not Taya, is out of line to make a new forum identity to bash me...
Well then I apologize that you were mentioned in my post. I have been a player for 2 1/2 years, a dev for 1+. I am making a concerted effort to become more involved in the community, primarily by addressing tickets in the bugtracker. But when I saw the attack on a friend and fellow dev I felt it important to speak up.
Hopefully the rest of my message has not been lost. I am sincerely grateful to everyone who expresses appreciation.
Now, getting back with Tua's purpose for this thread: I extend an invitation to anyone who wants to provide code patches to help improve the game. PM with me first to make sure that it hasn't already been done, or that there isn't something coming that would be contrary to it, or that it is not contrary to Talad's overall strategy - then I'll be happy to work with you.
If anyone wants to contribute but doesn't know what to do then by all means do contact me!
While we may have to work iteratively to get it into its final state I assure you I will be as delicate as I know how in providing feedback. Likewise if you will hear with kind ears we will get along fine.
We especially need people building and testing on the Mac as new changes are checked in.
Thank you again!
-
Pierre is Karenina, for anyone who doesn't already know.
On topic, if there was a public dev blog with daily/weekly updates, I'm sure many people would feel more involved and motivated. I don't mean a Twitter or a Facebook page, but an actual blog page. Something easily accessible that you could reach through planeshift.it and the forums.
-
On topic, if there was a public dev blog with daily/weekly updates, I'm sure many people would feel more involved and motivated. I don't mean a Twitter or a Facebook page, but an actual blog page. Something easily accessible that you could reach through planeshift.it and the forums.
A blog in theory is great, but requires time. The frequencies suggested are too frequent for the size of team we have, I would suggest fortnightly/monthly would be more realistic. Also in what may be the most important part is what is the desire for this and how many would actually read it. Again this may be something fulfilled by a PR Dev. role. Sorry to sound negative, but trying to be realistic. If other Devs agree I would be willing to participate in a blog (maybe within the forums).
-
Just record the meet the devs events and your vlog is done.
-
Just record the meet the devs events and your vlog is done.
I guess this is an option, but still need to clean the log of the spam (i.e. x sits down or x greets y etc).
-
I was thinking just a video capture from an invisible spectator near the center of the courthouse. I am sure someone in the community has the capability. A warts and all approach rather than an edited transcript. Of course if someone -- not necessarily on the dev team -- wanted to take the video and make a transcription that could be done too.
It might be a good idea to stress that the meeting is OOC and people should refrain from extraneous emoting. I don't really understand why people want to do this anyway but I have followed suit on occasion.
-
Talad is live broadcasting the dev meetings now. Anyone know the website for it?
-
There used to be a webcam on the main site but this (http://www.planeshift.it/ingame_cam.html)seems to be down now..
-
Talad is live broadcasting the dev meetings now. Anyone know the website for it?
The last one was http://www.twitch.tv/planeshift_rpg (http://www.twitch.tv/planeshift_rpg).
-
On topic, if there was a public dev blog with daily/weekly updates, I'm sure many people would feel more involved and motivated. I don't mean a Twitter or a Facebook page, but an actual blog page. Something easily accessible that you could reach through planeshift.it and the forums.
A blog in theory is great, but requires time. The frequencies suggested are too frequent for the size of team we have, I would suggest fortnightly/monthly would be more realistic. Also in what may be the most important part is what is the desire for this and how many would actually read it. Again this may be something fulfilled by a PR Dev. role. Sorry to sound negative, but trying to be realistic. If other Devs agree I would be willing to participate in a blog (maybe within the forums).
I had the same wish for a long time (give more informations giving weekly updates) but then again or I give info or I develop stuff, I don't have time enough for both. If you wish to do this Tuathanach, you're more than welcome to do so and you've my support.
-
Talad is live broadcasting the dev meetings now. Anyone know the website for it?
The last one was http://www.twitch.tv/planeshift_rpg (http://www.twitch.tv/planeshift_rpg).
We need to get going! Sign-up for an account and share it. I was the first to 'Like" it.
-
Live broadcasts do not help too much if they do not get archived for later review. I looked at that site and saw nothing available. I am not about to sign up for an account.
-
I decided to do an attempt at a blog post it can be found in Development Team Blog (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41870.0), there may be more to follow.
-
I think the most informative/active I ever saw was https://twitter.com/Venalan
And the development blog also got revived as it seems. I didn't read that post yet thouth :P *goes there instead of writing more*
-
+1
But it's not just posting to twitter which admittedly, I never read, that matters. Its more the time and willingness to listen to people and talk with them nicely. To be open and willing to represent their ideas, or at least entertain some of them. In the past, communication has been nil to one-way at best. ( ie. communication is believed to flow from players to devs, but is never really acknowledged - which is kind of impolite. This screams "You are not worth replying to" whether that is what's intended or not. )
-
This screams "You are not worth replying to" whether that is what's intended or not. )
Rigwyn, I am not 100% sure what you mean, I hope people feel they can talk/discuss with me their ideas/thoughts. I will listen although I can't guarantee I will agree or what someone says will happen even if I do agree. I am open to suggestions always even when I disagree initially if someone can justify why their idea is better than mine I am open and capable of changing my mind. If people want to create content for this game I aim to encourage/support best I can.
p.s. apologies if this comes across wrong just trying to be honest.
-
In the past ( years ago ) I remember it being this way. Discussions on the forums with regard to player feedback were pretty much ignored (not always, but sometimes). It could also be that there were a lot more people in the community at then and nobody really had the time to read and reply to everything.
-
Karyuu used to try, bless her, but became too much for her in the end. Then Neko. RIP
-
Karyuu used to try, bless her, but became too much for her in the end. Then Neko. RIP
Did they died?
-
No they didn't die IRL. But they died as far as PS is concerned.
-
Karyuu used to try, bless her, but became too much for her in the end. Then Neko. RIP
<3 They shall come back!
(Except... wasn't Karyuu who went rampage at some point and put unreleased items all about. Or who was that?)
-
Perhaps you mean UnderTheMoon?
-
No, Kary was too classy for that. I would love if either of them proved me wrong, but they won't come back.
-
It was UtM. Thread might still be on here...or archived for posterity elsewhere...>>
-
Imho its too complicated to just donate some help.
Its like you have to sign a nda for fixing a typo.
I'd love a system where you could just apply for a task and have a set time to fulfill it. If you dont - its open for the next person. If you fulfil it, you'd just hand over the results for examination.
Just use the big tracker and assign feature requests/bugs to peeps who comment that they want to work on it. Just invent a ps license that allows use solely in ps. That way peeps could donate work for ps with adding that license without need to sign anything.
-
Imho its too complicated to just donate some help.
Its like you have to sign a nda for fixing a typo.
I'd love a system where you could just apply for a task and have a set time to fulfill it. If you dont - its open for the next person. If you fulfil it, you'd just hand over the results for examination.
Just use the big tracker and assign feature requests/bugs to peeps who comment that they want to work on it. Just invent a ps license that allows use solely in ps. That way peeps could donate work for ps with adding that license without need to sign anything.
Well you need to agree to that ps license, if you do not sign it then it will be hard to prove that you agree.
-
@Aensor You only need to sign the license once and then you could do odd tasks.
-
"Only" have to give real name, accept some policies and then theres this:
"Create a profile only if you think you are talented in one of the requested positions. [...] .. you need previous experiences and portfolio. .."
Doesnt that seem deterrent to "Community involvement"? Some might think they are not good enough.
The way more important question is: Is that really needed for simple tasks?
In my previous post i suggested to invent a licence anyone could add to his work to have it donated to PS, couldnt that be an option for stuff like artwork or patches/extensions to the client/server code? Like as a first Step towards involvement. For those who are unsure if they are "good" enough or have the time to keep their promises. With a system creating low overhead for cases that "dont finish" their tasks - simple tasks of course - that could be an entry point to much deeper involvement!
Merely a license to allow PS to use donated code/art. A billboard with simple tasks that allow self-assigning with leaving the date could be enough.
-
"Only" have to give real name, accept some policies and then theres this:
"Create a profile only if you think you are talented in one of the requested positions. [...] .. you need previous experiences and portfolio. .."
Yes no anonymous people, thank you. If you want to contribute we would like to know who you are. You know who we are afterall.
Regarding the sentence can be perceived a bit harsh, however if someone logs in #planeshift-prospects to contribute and want to speak with us to contribute we've never kicked anyone away.
The way more important question is: Is that really needed for simple tasks?
In my previous post i suggested to invent a licence anyone could add to his work to have it donated to PS, couldnt that be an option for stuff like artwork or patches/extensions to the client/server code? Like as a first Step towards involvement. For those who are unsure if they are "good" enough or have the time to keep their promises. With a system creating low overhead for cases that "dont finish" their tasks - simple tasks of course - that could be an entry point to much deeper involvement!
Merely a license to allow PS to use donated code/art.
Yet another license?
First of all, code (engine, server, clients, dev tools, ...) falls under the GPL licence, so no discussions here. Hard to be more open than this.
Art assets: if someone is willing to contribute to the project ABC does the job, if someone doesn't like the license amen. As much as it's been discussed about it's not going to change so going on talking about it is futile.
A billboard with simple tasks that allow self-assigning with leaving the date could be enough.
self-assigning?
Ask yourself who knows better what are the project needs, you or the devs team? [Hint: there are 2 possibly right answers and 1 surely wrong one].
Self assignment isn't the best way, however if someone feels like working on an asset for PS on his own (a 3D model, a poem, a code patch) and want to show it to the team he's very welcome to do so and we'll be glad to review it and add it to the game if it's good enough, of course there is no guarantee it will be approved but we've never scolded anyone for doing so (and even if it's not a good enough quality the effort is appreciated).