PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Denes on October 18, 2013, 11:04:20 pm
-
It hasn’t been till recently that I came to know that you could be “banned for being involved in a RP where someone’s playing guard”. That is a shame since working as a ‘reserve guard’ is an essential part of my main’s RP and I can’t begin to imagine kra without it. Or even worse: get friendly chars in any kind of trouble.
But personal feelings aside, here are some topics I can offer for our consideration:
- rules clearly state players must not assume a guard’s role
- easiest way to let others know ICly a GM is around regardless of their UI settings
- There already is a quest for it. Jefecra clearly states in ‘Joining the Guards’ that: “And now that joined our ranks, I've got...”(16-Nov-2012)
- One of the easiest ways to create a “good side vs bad side” scenario
Is there a way to preserve advantages while evading the contradiction?
-
You can't be banned for playing a guard.
-
It hasn’t been till recently that I came to know that you could be “banned for being involved in a RP where someone’s playing guard”. That is a shame since working as a ‘reserve guard’ is an essential part of my main’s RP and I can’t begin to imagine kra without it. Or even worse: get friendly chars in any kind of trouble.
But personal feelings aside, here are some topics I can offer for our consideration:
- rules clearly state players must not assume a guard’s role
- easiest way to let others know ICly a GM is around regardless of their UI settings
- There already is a quest for it. Jefecra clearly states in ‘Joining the Guards’ that: “And now that joined our ranks, I've got...”(16-Nov-2012)
- One of the easiest ways to create a “good side vs bad side” scenario
Is there a way to preserve advantages while evading the contradiction?
The quest you are referring to is being changed as far as I know, the reason is having the players actually join the guards can be the source of countless troubles, however my personal opinion is: while "official" guards roles are barred to players, they can still be guards' helpers. The only true difference is guards' helpers cannot jail other players.
I know it can seems clumsy but actually giving players the power to jail other players can truly be prone to abuse.
-
I can't remember any players being banned for playing a guard...
For sure it is against the IC law to impersonate an offical. and you may visite the Jail for that offense...
But over all one of the worst thing we dont like, about people being guards is when they name themself after an actual NPC.
So playing goodies characters should not bring any of you into troubles if you avoid calling you a Hydlaa Guard or Octarchy Guard.
Investigators, detectives, reporters or whatever you want but not a guard. :detective:
If any of yours investigations lead you to the point you need the help of a guard, Every GM have a Octarchy guard character, contact and explain them. it would be a pleasure for them to enforce your RP
Have Fun
-
The rules used to be more strongly enforced when there were more players and a particular GM leader *cough* who would rip you apart verbally (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=33204.msg382735#msg382735) if you tried to god-mod the game's NPC characters or came close....
1. Its god modding to force words or actions on NPCs.
2. It would be god modding too if a player tried to assume that they had the authority that guards have.
3. It would be a violation of settings to make a guard do something that is not in character for them or for guards in general.
* We as players don't know exactly what is in character for each guard. Hell, I'm a prospect, and even I don't have access to that info.
So, if there are no GMs to contact during a roleplay and you need a guard character to intervene, what can you do?
One is to do your best to NOT get into a situation where a guard is needed. If you play a criminal, then don't commit crimes in town where a guard would likely see. Don't kill someone right in front of a guard, don't commit crimes in the tarvern, etc.. These things beg action from the NPC which cannot be played at the moment.
If it makes sense to have a guard do something very basic - like report an incident or bring a player to jail and there is no GM to ask, all players agree with it ( there is no abuse of power ), then I would say, just write in that a nameless guard escorted the character to jail or whatever. I really don't think anyone is going to break your stones over that. For things like this, is should be assumed that all guards are lawful good ( or appear lawful good ) as the quests suggest.
This last paragraph is probably bad for me to say, but I think its fair to say that common sense should come into play.
A better solution is to do what Kore Ikra Klan did some years ago and form a community watch (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=36780.0). Here, citizens actively patrolled the city. They were not guards, but citizens who would take action as needed. This was done in Ojaveda where there was no guard presense other than the two that stood at the entrance. Hydlaa is a bit different in that there are guards all over the place.
Good luck and Whisper bless!
-
Wait, so why not let people roleplay guards? I understand that regarding mechanics, if you were to give players the ability to lock other players up, it would be seen as "abuse". But if they are only roleplaying the guards, then there is the element of consent. Everyone should agree to a roleplay before or as it is executed. Roleplayers of criminals would enjoy the possibility of being locked up. The greater the risk, the greater the reward.
I think it would be genius to allow players the ability to play anyone they wished (realistically, of course). As long as there is always consent, there cannot be an issue. Even if it was a mechanic, you could give every player the choice of consenting to being jailed.
This may sound strange, but this is a team game. You're teamed up with your friends and enemies. This is the nature of roleplay. You can't have roleplay without agreement.
-
Wait, so why not let people roleplay guards? I understand that regarding mechanics, if you were to give players the ability to lock other players up, it would be seen as "abuse". But if they are only roleplaying the guards, then there is the element of consent. Everyone should agree to a roleplay before or as it is executed. Roleplayers of criminals would enjoy the possibility of being locked up. The greater the risk, the greater the reward.
lately I've never heard about a player being banned for playing a "guard" when there was shared consensus in the RP, so I would say it's not an issue and can be done
I think it would be genius to allow players the ability to play anyone they wished (realistically, of course). As long as there is always consent, there cannot be an issue. Even if it was a mechanic, you could give every player the choice of consenting to being jailed.
the point of jailing is not letting the freedom to choose, so imho implementing a mechanics allowing players to jail other willing players is not optimal from a development pov (aka "waste" of time).
-
I was not suggesting that you implement a mechanic to jail other players. I was saying that, if it were implemented, players should have the choice of having their character jailed.
Also... I don't know your background with roleplay. But you should know that even when your character is at the mercy of another, you must have consented to another player's request for power over your character. Consent is an unsaid thing, usually, but it is a major piece of the game. The point of jailing, ICly, is to restrict the freedom of the suspect. OOCly, however, it is to provide potential for the development of a plot and the characters involved.
There have been occasions in the past in which players were unable to consent to what happened to their characters. The GM team is guilty of this (I might be wrong, although I doubt it). I have heard of trials being conducted against a player's wishes and players being denied escape from jail. It is not godmodding to escape capture. The restriction of the player's choices is unfair and powerplaying. Yes, a GM can do that, especially when the GM is roleplaying a human character like a guard. (By saying they can do that, I mean that when they do, they are violating the rules. They are not exempt when they are roleplaying.)
It seems to me that many of you have lost sight of what roleplay is. There is a very clear line between OOC and IC. The difference between the player and the character. You may attempt to force a situation upon a character, but doing so with a player is inappropriate.
Arresting a character, preventing the character's escape, and putting the character on trial can be done without abuse. Only when that character's player agrees with the course of events. And by agree, I mean the player invites it. Freezing the player, teleporting the player, and then roleplaying as if the previous actions were acceptable is an example of powerplaying. It is completely OOC behavior, as the player is being forced to tolerate it, and every last ounce of fun is lost. It is no longer play.
Remember that this is a game. Look at the board game Risk. We, as players, are on equal ground. Our pieces may have a strategic advantage (Australia...), but we, as players, must be equal for this game to be fun. If I were to discreetly swipe away a few of your men, I would be violating the rules of the game. In roleplay, this would be, for example, powerplaying. It is cheating. But If I were to destroy your men during a round of attack, it would be fair, as we are both consenting to battle by continuing the game. By rolling the dice, we are avoiding unsportsmanly conduct by avoiding forced shortcuts (like if I were to hide your pieces).
Now, I would say the game of Risk is analogous to a single roleplay. You are not your pieces on the battlefield, just as you are not your character. You, the player, can quit any time you wish. And, when the other players are fair, it can be fun to lose, especially after a tough game.
So, while a character may not choose to be jailed, the roleplayer has chosen to allow that character to be jailed. Nothing should happen to anyone who does not will it.
-
As far as I know there has never been a case of a character being put on trial without the consent f the character. The reality is trials are a pain since they require a lot of resources to to so they aren't done often. Yes characters have been sent to jail against their will before. This is normally due to the character not listening to the GM guard or trying to intentionally ignore the GM guard in an OOC fashion. In these cases we normally send the character to jail so we can talk to the player in private in an OOC manner so we can find out what their issue is and help them understand the need to remain IC.
When people are send to jail for RP reasons then yes the settings are that they can't escape from jail and that the player can't exploit mechanics, like killing themselves to escape to the DR in order to get out of jail. If players don't want to go along with the no jail break settings then they should avoid being sent to jail in the first place.
The Octarchal decree states the law of not impersonating a guard or government official. So if there is someone running around RP'ing that they are part of the guards or a government official then they would be subject to IC punishment under the decree. We have had problems of players pretending to be government officials in order to cause abuse. The most memorable one I can think of being a certain group of players who called their guild the Hydlaa Tax collectors in order to confront players about over due tax payments. Luckily this was caught fairly quickly and dealt with by the Gms and this is an example of potential abuse that can be caused by people pretending to be a guard or government official.
There could certainly be something like a citizens patrol or watch that would let regular characters watch against or try to prevent crimes and should have enough separation form guards so that people wouldn't be confused about the roles people are playing and thus avoid potential abuse.
-
Sarva, you need to actually read my post. You just now have done exactly what I was describing: mixing OOC and IC.
I have trouble believing that Hydlaa's jail is inescapable. Maybe you should explain why.
If someone is roleplaying that their character is a guard or a government official, then their character is a guard or government official. You can contest the validity of the roleplay, but you shouldn't assume that the character is impersonating a guard. OOC mistakes should be dealt with by GMs, not by IC law.
I believe that a citizen's watch is never going to survive in this game. Considering how crime and law are in the real world and the way PS imitates real law, it would be unwise for a character to assume the role of a citizen's watch. There are players who try to maintain order, but they can only go so far. Their characters become vigilantes.
No roleplayer likes to be restricted in what they can do. I don't see how permitting players to roleplay as guards, government officials, tavern workers, or whatever could cause confusion or abuse. In fact, I'm surprised this isn't supported by the game. Right now, characters are forced into ordinary occupations. It's counter-intuitive to give players a fantasy world and then restrict what their characters can be.
And I've been in text-based roleplays with many times more players than PlaneShift has. There was no abuse by players whose characters were police officers, guards, and so on. It's because in text-based roleplay, you naturally have the choice to accept what happens to your character. PlaneShift could do this as well. It really puzzles me how the developers of this game seem content to ignore its potential.
-
If you can't see how permitting players to roleplay (and have the powers to enforce) as guards and government officials could cause confusion or abuse you should re-read my post and sarva's post (it was explained fairly well).
In case you still don't, repeat.
In case you still don't, repeat.
In case you still don't, repeat... :P
Denes, Sarva and Sarko: I think it could be interesting to have some player's vigilantes to cooperate OOCly and ICly with the GMs team so some guard can show up when some RP requires od suggest them to be present. This idea is not in order to "militarize" PS roleplays but to allow the community to enjoy the "government" part of the settings which is otherwise harder for players to fully enjoy (for the reasons explained above).
-
I still cannot see it. Sorry.
But I do agree with player-GM cooperation. Get a GM who can actually roleplay, though.
-
I did actually once RP a character who was IC pretending to be a guard. They were not actually a guard, because the entire plot point was that they would get caught in the act and (depending on how players handled it) reported to the real guards (we had a GM ready and waiting to play the real guard so the whole thing did have some official backing behind it).
It was great fun and quite a few players got involved. I'm guessing they liked it because it was different and a bit out of the normal in terms of the RP you can usually fall into without lots of planning in advance.
But the reason I never repeated it? I got tired of the /tells informing me I'd be banned and a bit fed up of explaining that no, actually what I was doing was within the rules, agreed to and fine.
Personally, I think the problem is that even people who can usually separate IC and OOC just fine seem to lose track here a little and equate IC guard with OOC GM, but they are (or I feel at least should be) completely different things. The guild label should be enough to show who the GM guards are and a player has no way to invite themselves to the GM guard guild after all. A player also can't change their name colour. Yet just the same, during the RP I actually got sent a /tell accusing me of GM impersonation, which I certainly wasn't doing and the character's description even made it quite clear that they were faking their position as a guard. Most people had no trouble seeing this, but there were a couple who just couldn't seem to get the difference.
With that said, I would be totally against giving player guards any kind of power at all by mechanics; but I really think it should be fine and acceptable to RP as lower ranking guards or other IC low level officials without fear. The RP community here is not stupid. If someone is obviously trying to use an IC position in an abusive way, people will either see that as IC and respond to it IC, or they'll ignore the RPer. (For example, a guard who abuses his position would get reported to the captain of the guards. So after the initial RP exchange, the players would be completely within their rights to totally ignore future RP in the same direction or IC state he can't possibly still have any authority to tell them what to do as he would have lost his position, unless the RPer playing the guard is able to speak to them and sort out a plotline that causes it all to make sense. Then we'd have consent from all sides anyway.)
If there were more/more active GMs who did actually RP outside of events then it would probably be a non-issue, but there's a problem when RP heads in a direction that would realistically demand a guard's involvement but then no one can play the guard. You can tiptoe around the issue and invent excuses for why the guards didn't show up, but after a while it can be a bit of an RP breaker and bleeds away the chance to 'believe' in the setting. And to simply avoid any RP at all that might need a guard..? To me that feels like a huge limitation.
Anyway, sorry for the long post. I'm tired so probably making very little sense at this point...
-
Where is Gonger when you need him? ;D
I think we need to develop something to guard new players. The problem is that they have nothing to pay for the service and it can be a long process guiding them and protecting them. And they will do stupid things like trying to kill a cutthroat when they think that it is easy from watching you do it. :'(
Denes, why not for a citizen's guard to escort weak players? It would be nice if the Octarchy would pay for it.
-
What about exchanging a favor for a favor?
Ie. You be my spy, apprentice, or friend, whatever and I'll cover your ass.
-
I can agree with many things Taya is pointing out and trying to figure out a "technical" solution (which by no means will solve the problem of how people OOCly deal with other players role-playing guards of ICly fake guards) I can propose to add the city guards to a guild like: the "Ochtarcal's Guard" guild, this way it will be clear no player can play a guard and a GM guard can always have its char added to the guild. At the same time normal players can be something like a guard but not being part of them their jurisdiction is somehow limited within the city wall. I hope this help.
-
Eonwind, do you mean that players would be able to play guards, yet they would be limited to lower ranks, giving them less authority? If that is the case, ICly, what would a player guard be able to do?
-
yes and no, I'm thinking more like a "vigilantes" or "investigators" with no authority (jurisdiction) within the city border. The point was more like clarifying who has jurisdiction inside the city in the hope less concern are raised during RP. Unfortunately this will not be able to totally address the issue anyway.
-
Well, I wouldn't go with vigilantes since the very definition means players would have to create them on their own. Investigators would be interesting, though. They would not have any authority like guards would, but they could make official reports to guards. Assuming GMs are willing to roleplay.
-
What about exchanging a favor for a favor?
Ie. You be my spy, apprentice, or friend, whatever and I'll cover your ass.
I have done it, for the most part, for free, but almost all new players need protection from or escorted around the mobs. It is very time consuming to run someone around like that. Those that want can join the guild for help, but many do not understand guilds when they first start.
-
To me it really just feels like telling players they can't RP guards because guards are GMs is a confusion of IC and OOC. If a player 'guard' doesn't have any special powers by mechanics (which I believe they should not), then they can't really abuse their IC positions of authority as, just as with any other IC position of authority that is open for them to play, other players have to choose to respond to their RP and 'obey' them.
There shouldn't need to be any technical solution as it would already be impossible for anyone who knows the game to mistake a player guard for an actual GM. (Guild name, label colour). And if someone doesn't know the game very well yet, then they probably have no preconceived notion that guard = GM anyway.
It's not really a big issue to me either way, but it's just a thing that's always seemed 'wrong' to me. Might be because before I RPed here, everywhere else I RPed left these kinds of roles open to players and there was never any problem due to it.
-
Might be because before I RPed here, everywhere else I RPed left these kinds of roles open to players and there was never any problem due to it.
Definitely this.
-
Players help each other ICly already. It's also why players form Orders like the Adani, for example. Or the Warriors. Rigwyn is also right.
-
Where is Gonger when you need him? ;D
Well, I never played a guard, but on several occasions RPed someone working with the guard (e.g. Sarva), if that's what you mean. Otherwise I can only assume that you miss my charming personality... :P
-
If there were more/more active GMs who did actually RP outside of events then it would probably be a non-issue, but there's a problem when RP heads in a direction that would realistically demand a guard's involvement but then no one can play the guard. You can tiptoe around the issue and invent excuses for why the guards didn't show up, but after a while it can be a bit of an RP breaker and bleeds away the chance to 'believe' in the setting. And to simply avoid any RP at all that might need a guard..? To me that feels like a huge limitation.
yes, and i'll add that several guard/official player-characters i know of came into being precisely to fill those gaps and make it fun in that we didn't have to 'RP with myself' (which is kind of what it is, when you have to assume the NPCs are doing their thing, versus having an interactive character to further the RP. a 'good-guys' guild is not always enough, especially if your character wasn't engaging good-guys, exactly, but the octarchy or the law or the religious authorities etc). as far as i can tell, this kind of 'playing the guard' has been done successfully in several instances with player consent, no complaints.
i can see and support the point that others are making about not confusing IC and OOC. cases of abuse should occasion OOC intervention through the usual GM avenues, but i hope no GM plays a guard or octarch at all just to ban someone for, say, botting or cybering. sure, a GM-guard/octarch is empowered in a way that an ordinary player isn't to stop an RP that although IC, is OOCly exploitative e.g. the Hydlaa Tax Collectors -- what the offending players are doing then no longer qualifies as valid RP. but in all valid, non-abuse cases of RP, why shouldn't ANY role be free for players to roleplay based on player acceptance? we are not actually asking for deus ex machina solutions or powers, after all - it's just roleplay. :)
-
I remember Mishka dressed up as an Enkidukai Alliance guard once or something, lol. She scared the hell out of some evildoer with her neutering swords.
-
Actually a bunch of us ancient and midbies do help new players often, guiding them, giving them some extra tria or a blade, helping them figure out quests, etc.
Its not organized though we tried once to do that, like a welcome wagon. Now it's sporadic.
I wonder if somehow new players could petition for a MENTOR for a day or play session and one of us old coots could plan on doing that with new player who would like that kind of help?
-
I normally answer questions, give tria, directions and refer them to more knowledgeable helpers like Roled or Kyyjunuut. Lol ;D
-
I wonder if somehow new players could petition for a MENTOR for a day or play session and one of us old coots could plan on doing that with new player who would like that kind of help?
That's not a bad idea. You could put an ooc note in a book or something... maybe make a forum post about it.