PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Eatuck on October 23, 2013, 11:48:25 pm
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Hi All,
Someone brought up a big issue at the last dev meeting and I wanted to say why I think the game has lost so many players (and can't retain new players) and give a solution. Frankly, I think the reason for lack of players is the game is one big grinding session. Yes, you can role play without grinding but to be able to do anything with your character using the game mechanics takes weeks to get any where. My solution is to simply make levelling significantly easier and fix crafting to make it faster with less clicks (will give a solution for that in another post). The game is for role play but in its current state, it is mostly all work. I think ultimately a game should be fun and not a grind. Yes the levelling was fixed a bit with the last update but it still needs to be increased significantly. I think a general rule should be whenever a change is proposed or looking at what is currently in the game, please ask yourself, will this add (or currently adds) work to the game or fun. If it adds more work than enjoyment, it should not be added or needs to changed.
That being said, I would like to end this portion on a positive note. I really like what you did with the rogues after the last update. When I tried to fight the rogues at camp banished and one them yelled for help I was pleasantly surprised. It was the most exciting death I have had in a long time. I loved it. Thank you very much for that.
Eatuck
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Someone brought up a big issue at the last dev meeting and I wanted to say why I think the game has lost so many players (and can't retain new players)
This again... I hope too much thought wasn't given to this. This has been torn apart and discussed on the forums for years. In brief, the game and community was not really conducive to both role players and grinders. Things were said and done that discouraged grinders and role players alike. People voiced and discussed their dissatisfaction on the forums and eventually left. As a result of the decline, more players left because without the players, the game was not much fun.
Why isn't the population increasing? Its a lot easier to lose players than to gain players. It will take time for people to learn that Planeshift exists, to try it, to like it, and stick to it. Likewise, there are more free games to choose from than there were before. Currently, the game looks vacant and abandoned despite the wandering npcs. That's a bit of a turn off.
Frankly, I think the reason for lack of players is the game is one big grinding session.
That depends on who you are playing with. Of those of use who role play, some of us don't bother to grind at all. Some of us choose not to take stats into consideration because:
1. They require you to spend time grinding - which is not fun and takes away from role playing time.
2. They do not always mesh well with role playing.
3. Stats and skills offer very little in terms of role play.
Yes, you can role play without grinding but to be able to do anything with your character using the game mechanics takes weeks to get any where.
What do the mechanics really offer?
* You can cast spells. Ok, that looks nice, but isn't a big deal.
* You can fight with swords and stuff. A mechanics fight does little to stimulate those who role play their fights. Also, when there is a huge mismatch in stats, it will end the fight too quickly. A one hit kill ends the role play very quickly. That's .... not fun.
My solution is to simply make levelling significantly easier and fix crafting to make it faster with less clicks (will give a solution for that in another post).
I agree. I think the solution though, is to find a better ratio of sacrifice to reward. If the percentage of sacrifice is too high, then the game will fail to satisfy the player.
That being said, I would like to end this portion on a positive note. I really like what you did with the rogues after the last update. When I tried to fight the rogues at camp banished and one them yelled for help I was pleasantly surprised. It was the most exciting death I have had in a long time. I loved it. Thank you very much for that.
I totally agree. The rogue camp was done quite nicely.
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I'm pretty sure Talad refuses to make the game easier so he can limit the number of people who have to suffer the beta-ness of his game.
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Thank you for your post Rigwyn. You had some really good points in there. I do agree that there needs to be a balance between grinders and role players. I am not a big fan of role play myself so I can't talk from that perspective but I am playing the game to craft, hunt, and chat with my guild mates. From what I take from it, role players need a good player base to have fun and skills based players need less of a grind. Lets look at mining. In my opinion it is by far the most boring thing to do in the game. Why does it need to take so long? I for one don't want to go into the game and spend hours mining to then spend forever doing more repetitive tasks to craft it. If levelling mining was significantly faster and the time it took to get one ore was shorter, it would help new players make more tria (possibly stay in game) and also help the crafters get supplies faster. That sounds like a win win to me.
I would also like to point out some thoughts from my guild mates. Some feel that a big factor for the reduced player base was moving the platinum mine from Gug. I remember digging plat for tria when I first started and it made things much easier. It was also a great place for some role play too. I have no idea why it was removed but stuff like that seemed to be a move in the wrong direction. Players on both sides were having fun so why then was it removed?
In conclusion, I feel like it really shouldn't matter if grinders want to max. It just shouldn't be a ton of work to do so. Are we afraid that max players will just leave? Big Events (like the invasion), quests and updates will keep them playing. Also, an increased player base will bring in more role players. If the game is built around enjoyment, an increase in player base will follow.
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I think some of the friction between role players and grinders came from the idea of using stats to determine the outcome of rp fights. Some also came from the fact that we played by different rules and had different expectations. Completely divorcing from the game's stats and mechanics has helped role players.
Yes, the removal of the plat mine was a kick in the ass for grinders (initially), but I think the bigger disincentive was the implied threat of a wipe that arose from Xillix's infamous discussion (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=36199.msg412040#msg412040). :devil: Once that threat loomed, nobody wanted to waste their time grinding - knowing that their years of sacrifice might be erased overnight. There was further disincentive with the re-balancing of npc strength and so on. I know that part of the problem with the plat mine was that it generated so much money that it invalidated other means of making money. It caused imbalance in the economy which was bad for the game overall ( though very good for miners). The mine is back but I never see anyone there. Last time I remember hearing about people using it was when the Stillwater group took it over. ( With nobody online skilled enough to smelt plat, plat is useless )
For role players, there were some problems with one or two gms who didn't quite understand RP (Well, I should say one high ranking one :sorcerer: ), and a few role players who were pissing off the gms and devs. There was also some friction within the RP camp regarding rules or standards for RP. Some roleplayers felt the rules for RP should be more strict ( I was and still am in that camp ), some felt they should be looser. Those of us who played by strict RP standards ( as most do today ) did not like playing with those who played by very loose standards. The horribly loose standards made them incompatible with us hence many had to be ignored. That in itself is a long story that really does not need to be dug up.
There was also an annoyance factor with grinders who tried to stick their nose into RP without taking it seriously. Some would literally act like small children ( and probably were given their lack of patience and inability hold a simple conversation. ) and do ridiculous things that made no sense. This breaks immersion in a major way. Its like going to a movie theater and and straining to get into the movie while an obnoxious crow of people who could give a crap about the movie start throwing things at the screen and blabbering about things out loud... like their favorite music artists and their last bowel movement. I don't mean in any way to depict all grinders in this light. Some of us who role play grind too and vice versa.
I agree with you, it should not matter if people just want to grind. Let them. So long as stats are not incorporated into RP, it does not matter. Once people start trying to blend stats with RP, problems arise.
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A whole host of problems and disagreements over years and years drained away the playerbase. This, and the fact that other major MMORPGs started surpassing Planeshift exponentially. Its major strengths are a unique setting, cool lore, and some RP-facilitating amenities.
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Here's the main problem with grinding in PlaneShift.
In most games, "grinding" is the boring part of the game which you do so that you can have more fun later. I played RuneScape in middle school. In that game I grinded a lot of skills, either directly for combat or to get money for gear. Why? So I could kill other players in the "wilderness" or other minigames. That was the ultimate goal. In GTA V online (which I have been playing lately), you "grind" money by doing little missions (liquor store robberies, car thefts, drug deliveries). Why? You can use the money to upgrade your vehicle, buy an apartment for you and your friends to hang in, etc.
The problem in PlaneShift is that there isn't really much you work your way up to. It seems to be built such that the act of grinding is the fun part. No, it ranges from mediocre to mind-numbingly boring. And there's not much you gain by doing it. You get experience and money, but really the only use for money in this game is training. You buy a level and keep grinding.
You never reach the "fun part." There isn't much PvP going on, probably because there's nothing to gain from it. You can't take anything from your enemy when you kill them. Basically killing someone in the wilderness just means you're a dick. So the only benefit you get is being able to kill more NPC monsters. Which can be fun but gets old quick. For crafting skills you'll make decent money, but again the only thing you can use money for is training. Back to the grind.
Personally I grind only because I want to roleplay a character with similar abilities to what I have mechanics-wise. If I'm playing an alchemist I want to be able to pull out some 300q potions to show/sell. If I'm RPing casting a spell I want my character to actually be able to cast it.
Minigames would be amazing for helping break the monotony of the grind, and giving people a real reason to train. We should make some minigames. Player run, first, and maybe with enough support we can get them into game mechanics. I'll start a new thread to brainstorm/discuss tomorrow. I need sleep.
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You never reach the "fun part."
This right here is the problem with noob guilds like the first guild I joined. There's all kind of talk about ranks and training, and preparing to dole out some whoop-ass, but the whoop-ass never comes. You just train...
This is why I role play.
If you could player-kill, then you would at least have some need and use or skills but some folks tried that in planeshift with the ezpc server, and it fizzled out.
Having fast paced Raids like in WoW would be cool, but that's no small order.
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PKing, raiding, dueling, crafting expensive items, roleplaying an experienced character... Those are the reasons to grind. Problem is, it's so hard to reach max level in anything that there's no one to compete with. There is no competitive market. There are no tournaments. There are no massive battles because there aren't enough high-level players. It's so hard to level that roleplayers refuse to do it. There are never potential victims wandering about in Wildy-like areas (Camp Banished).
I've heard someone, maybe Talad, say something along the lines of "When you reach max level, there is no longer a reason to play the game."
WRONG. Grinding is just the first step. It's the most hated aspect of any game that has ever existed. Players strive to be "max level" for a reason. They want to be equally as powerful as other players. They want respect. They want to be part of a guild or clan, and usually those guilds and clans expect players to be able to hold their own.
Once a player reaches max level, he doesn't suddenly want to stop. It's only the beginning. Grinding is proving that you have the determination. When grinding gets too hard, determination falters. You can only have so much for an online game.
When players start complaining, there's an issue, and you had better fix it or you'll lose players. And that's what has happened with this game.
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Why not simply allow botting? Then at least grinding would not take up too much player real time. As long as it is done what matter if we lock the player into a mindless activity or simply allow modern technology to do it for them? That would be the quickest and by far easiest fix to the nagging debate.
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A great example of a max character staying is I am currently too weak to participate in invasion events or kill certain beasts. I would need a healer at all times to stay alive. If I was max in axe lets say, I would participate more in the events and community oriented things. But since I am too weak, I have to spend countless hours to train axe one level. I have to hunt for pp and tria, then go hit the dummy a bazillion times. rinse and repeat. Also, HA is not craftable, so I can't even kill maulbers solo (where I get pp) without a good supply of potions with me. MA characters have no problem going solo against whatever they like with 300q MA. That is another wish list post that I made in hopes that craftable HA would be included but I should stay on the topic at hand. In conclusion, I want to max to feel like I can participate but I can't so the only option is to grind in hopes of getting to that level some day. Maybe a year down the road I will get there. Maybe I will get frustrated with spending hours and hours of my life doing the same thing over and over again. Max characters will stay involved in events, helping new players, role playing, creating events, etc. There is so many possibilities other than to grind.
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Once you get there, Eatuck, you see that it didn't change anything.
Sure, its fun to kill things quickly and zap out spells at things. But role playing, actually being that wizard or warrior that you wanted to be in the first place, and actually playing out that role in vivid detail is something that the graphics cannot offer.
While you and others are sitting there and trying to keep your eyes open, suffering as you grind, some of us are having a great time partaking in all sorts of crazy evil plots.
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Why not simply allow botting? Then at least grinding would not take up too much player real time. As long as it is done what matter if we lock the player into a mindless activity or simply allow modern technology to do it for them? That would be the quickest and by far easiest fix to the nagging debate.
because the bandwidth, computing power, servers, everything is donated and botting is ABUSING it.
I just want to point one thing peoples don't seem to get or more probably it's not been made quite clear: we have 200 rank for each skill, maxing out a few skills means the character isn not powerful, but is hyper-super-powerful.
Most other MMORPG have the level cap at 80 levels, in a quick comparison with PS it means having 2-3 skills at 100.
Truth to be told: while it's true you can train up to 200 at the moment only few skills have challenges and standards to support a character over 100. Yes, it's true your maxed out character will have very few (and it's an understatement) challenges.
Now a little survey: how many stat rank has the most dangerous (released) creature in the game? :P
Minigames would be amazing for helping break the monotony of the grind, and giving people a real reason to train. We should make some minigames. Player run, first, and maybe with enough support we can get them into game mechanics. I'll start a new thread to brainstorm/discuss tomorrow. I need sleep.
Planeshift engine already support some kind of minigames (game boards, something like "tic tac toe") since a lot of years. Lately I'm working to release some in game, however inventing some new and original ones is challenging, suggestions are welcome.
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Max characters will stay involved in events, helping new players, role playing, creating events, etc. There is so many possibilities other than to grind.
You know all of these things can be done without being maxed out, right?
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I just want to point one thing peoples don't seem to get or more probably it's not been made quite clear: we have 200 rank for each skill, maxing out a few skills means the character isn not powerful, but is hyper-super-powerful.
Most other MMORPG have the level cap at 80 levels, in a quick comparison with PS it means having 2-3 skills at 100.
Truth to be told: while it's true you can train up to 200 at the moment only few skills have challenges and standards to support a character over 100. Yes, it's true your maxed out character will have very few (and it's an understatement) challenges.
I don't think people see it this way, Eonwind. To me and I think many others, a fully trained fighting character is one who has maxed at least one or more fighting skills ( ie magic, sword, axe, etc.. ) and some form of armor.
It doesn't matter if you divide that fully trained skill into 80 increments or 10,000 increments. Either way, if it's not maxed, its not done.
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I know Rigwyn, and that's why I wrote the post. I understand the point of view of who want to see his character maxed-out but it must be clear they're going to face a lot more work than expected, just like if you want to reach level 100 in a game where the limit is 80.
In the previous case it's simply impossible, you can't; with planeshift you can reach 200 but beyond a certain level it becomes incredibly difficult.
If I could I would lower the cap to 100 for skills and 200 for stats.
It was like that long time ago but then it was raised because players (if I'm not wrong) asked for them to be increase.
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I'll admit I skimmed here but that bit of skimming did give me one idea. How about halving(or more) skill bars, leave stats the way it is, and introduce a system for combat comparison counters?
Rather than skill bars representing how good the character is in executing that skill let it represent coming to an amount of knowledge in the skill area. So that, when a character maxes a level, it is a reflection of having learned all that is taught by the available trainers rather than being super good in that skill. A skill number alone won't necessarily give a good comparison between characters in terms of skill, especially for the purposes of RP. But it is good for telling whether or not you know enough to complete a given item in crafting.
The combat comparison counter is a bit harder to work the technical details out for since it would need to work in factors aside from just skill number. But, It would be nice if you could target another player then open something similar to the skills window and get a rough comparison. For example, maybe the system will look at equipped weapons, their quality, run comparisons on skill level completion and stats, and maybe toss in some race based modifiers, and then it kicks out some numbers. Now that doesn't mean that one character will inherently beat the other but it will give a unbiased estimate on who's more likely to be better. It should also vary a little more in the future if those race based limitations are ever introduced.
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The maximum level for skills was raised because players wanted to be powerful enough to take on mobs on their own. The mobs were (and still are) too powerful.
I keep hearing that PS developers don't want to make the game more complicated. But then they go and make it more complicated by "fixing" problems, creating more problems. This is the single most complex game I have ever played. Out of every online, single-player, FPS, or RTS game.
It's actually hilarious. Hilariously bad.
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To be fair, I think the game has improved significantly from a mechanics point of view. Its a lot more balanced than it used to be. There are more things that would make it better, but its definitely on its way.
Think about what it was like back when tlokes could own you, or when people went around one-shotting ulbers. Recall how magic was useless unless you had flying stones...
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I keep hearing that PS developers don't want to make the game more complicated. But then they go and make it more complicated by "fixing" problems, creating more problems. This is the single most complex game I have ever played. Out of every online, single-player, FPS, or RTS game.
Go play Dwarf Fortress.
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When you view a character's description, it gives you a relative comparison to you own fighting abilities. Poor little Waesed has maxed stats and lvl 150 LA, 106 Sword, and a CW master. Lots of hard work went into it. Some of the resent changes have made me want to quit, but I have toughed it out. They have made it where a new player cannot gain levels very quickly, except some crafting. But even wit that, they cannot get enough PP and tria to keep training without doing the quests and they cannot do the quests without help with the way the mobs attack now.
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They have made it where a new player cannot gain levels very quickly, except some crafting. But even wit that, they cannot get enough PP and tria to keep training without doing the quests and they cannot do the quests without help with the way the mobs attack now.
This has not been my general experience at all. I haven't done a lot of smithing, but with cooking, herbal, and alchemy I've always made enough PPs and tria to pay for my training.
The thing is, you need to make finished products. You can't pound the same pieces of metal into sword handles and expect to be able to pay the trainer. You need to make finished swords. Same with cooking/herbal/alchemy. You need to make and sell the finished product. Intermediates won't make you anything substantial.
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Tman wrote,
You know all of these things can be done without being maxed out, right?
Yes. You could role play but some players aren't into that, including myself. In my current state as a HA user, I would have to spend a ton of potions to kill the monsters that give me adequate pp. Even ulbers hit me pretty hard with max in HA while a crafted MA user can get hit and have barely a sliver taken off their health. Also a max in a weapon will give me the most survivability because I can kill the beast faster than it kills me.
Tman wrote, The thing is, you need to make finished products. You can't pound the same pieces of metal into sword handles and expect to be able to pay the trainer. You need to make finished swords. Same with cooking/herbal/alchemy. You need to make and sell the finished product. Intermediates won't make you anything substantial.
I agree, but doing so would require a ton of material to make all these finished products you are talking about with blacksmith skills. So basically this means buying ore/hides (need tria, so grind), or mining/hunting (grinding) then doing crafting. In the end it would take even more time to level because you have to constantly seek out materials. To give you an idea of the amount, a full suit (6 pieces) of chain mail armor requires 19 stocks (25 with 6-1 patterns) to complete. Armor making is one of the skills where you have to complete something because it is a one way trip. Blades and shields are less resource needy because of recycling. Overall both ways take forever to gain one level but it is quicker to recycle.
I know a player with max in all armor and most weapon skills (think all but one) as well as max in a way (and really high in the rest). They still play the game and still enjoy it as well. I just want to get my player to the point where I can be self sufficient. To me this means maxing a weapon, armor, and a way. I also don't think that asking to not spend years in the game doing so is not a small request.
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They already made most of the crafting faster (except shield making, why???). I wont start on the Mental and Physicall Stamina point :@#\ .
I am not judging, i am curious. What could it give you exactly to be a super maxed personn in no time ? I know how much frustrating and long can be the training sometimes, but it's always the same : The reward is even more enjoyable.
Do we want a complet community of maxed people running around PS ? Or do we prefer to keep a relative hard to get skills to keep the interaction between player, necessary? I am not so sure of the answer honestly. We aint that much already, are we going to finish all alone in our corner, auto-sufficient ? ;-o
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Lumi wrote:
What could it give you exactly to be a super maxed personn in no time ?
I am not saying to make it so someone can max a skill in a day. From your post, it sounds like you think my wish is to make players max immediately when they enter the world. This is far from the truth. What I am saying is the game is currently a huge grinding session and, do to this, players can't be retained. I believe if the mindset was to make the game fun to level instead of grind to level then players will stay. There is many solutions to this but the main one, in my opinion, is to make levelling significantly easier.
Lumi wrote: Do we want a complet community of maxed people running around PS ? Or do we prefer to keep a relative hard to get skills to keep the interaction between player, necessary? I am not so sure of the answer honestly. We aint that much already, are we going to finish all alone in our corner, auto-sufficient ? ;-o
It shouldn't matter if there is a lot of max players in the community. I believe the community would benefit from players that don't spend all their time grinding skills up so they can kill the next beast. They would interact more frequently with other players.
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I disagree. There doesn't seem to be enough activities in the game right now. The goal, at least it seems to me, is that the fun comes from the leveling up specifically. All of the other "fun" stuff that maxed players can do (helping new players, holding events, role playing) can be done just as easily without being maxed. If they're not doing these things now, what's going to make them suddenly start when they hit the level cap?
Also, the game is primarily about character development. If maxing out is easy and a whole bunch of people do it, then we have the "Mary Sue" problem where all the characters are basically overpowered copies of each other. No need to work together, not a lot of variety in skills or abilities. Makes the game pretty bland.
Maybe it's just me, but unless you're doing a lot of PvP I don't see why "maxing" is important at all. Differences in various skill levels are what make a character unique. Since things take a long time, it forces you to specialize in a few skills, or be moderately skilled in a whole bunch. Very few people max out a wide range of skills. Which is how it should be. If maxing becomes easy enough for most people to do it, everyone can cast all of the spells and use all of the armors and there's no uniqueness to characters anymore.
Now I admit the case can be made that NPCs are too hard to fight currently. Sure. Maybe. It is a multiplayer game. Challenges lead to cooperation. Which is a good thing.
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Let me repeat myself for another time. This is a game, and it does not make a game better to make it easier. To achieve things easily makes it boring....
What would the good thing to have tons of maxed out characters running around?
The skill system is ok as it is. Hard work for success, and well earned success afterwards. For each rank :)
Just my 2 cents....
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I am not saying to make it so someone can max a skill in a day. From your post, it sounds like you think my wish is to make players max immediately when they enter the world. This is far from the truth.
I wasn't implying anything Eatuck, i maybe makes it look "big" just to go more directly to the point ;)
I recall when i started PS, i took herbal and was so proud, starting to imagine selling my potions on markets, training leatherworking and planing on doing the same. I very soon discovred that most of the current players were level 464894849 in both of those Skills, able to craft 300Q goods. I was completly discouradged by this for a long time.
You do are right on that point : "Players can't be retained"
The tutorial makeover is maybe a step toward a better already.
But honestly, in each and every MMO of this planet, the grinding do is boring most of the time. But once again it's a game, with more or less goals to achieve (goals that YOU and only YOU fix).
All of the other "fun" stuff that maxed players can do (helping new players, holding events, role playing) can be done just as easily without being maxed. If they're not doing these things now, what's going to make them suddenly start when they hit the level cap?
Exactly, that's the point.
I don't know if you would enjoy more the game beeing 200 in a Magic Way or in a combat skill. But if yes then it's your goal and work hard to reach it ? And i can assure you that i am the first to grumble and sweat while training lol
If you want more RP, create it! If you want more events, the same. That's my opinion. :P
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Tman wrote, The thing is, you need to make finished products. You can't pound the same pieces of metal into sword handles and expect to be able to pay the trainer. You need to make finished swords. Same with cooking/herbal/alchemy. You need to make and sell the finished product. Intermediates won't make you anything substantial.
I agree, but doing so would require a ton of material to make all these finished products you are talking about with blacksmith skills. So basically this means buying ore/hides (need tria, so grind), or mining/hunting (grinding) then doing crafting. In the end it would take even more time to level because you have to constantly seek out materials. To give you an idea of the amount, a full suit (6 pieces) of chain mail armor requires 19 stocks (25 with 6-1 patterns) to complete. Armor making is one of the skills where you have to complete something because it is a one way trip. Blades and shields are less resource needy because of recycling. Overall both ways take forever to gain one level but it is quicker to recycle.
I know a player with max in all armor and most weapon skills (think all but one) as well as max in a way (and really high in the rest). They still play the game and still enjoy it as well. I just want to get my player to the point where I can be self sufficient. To me this means maxing a weapon, armor, and a way. I also don't think that asking to not spend years in the game doing so is not a small request.
tman is right! you're doing it wrong: and you need to make finished product. intermidiate items costs are very low and you will not earn enough trias to pay for your next training, other than that I always found it boring to hammer and re-hammer the same sword handle... this kind of grinding can't surely be anything but boring, try completing a few product maybe you'll gain ranks faster and with less boredom!
About self sufficiency: this is multiplayer game, some challenges are especially designed for player's grouping. Albeit there are tons of challenges you can defeat single handedly there will be some you won't. Another point: if every player is self sufficient in not time what would be the point of markets, players helping other players and such.
I think sometimes players have the false expectation to reach self sufficiency very early on in every aspect of the game: asking for help to other players is not a crime, many people will be very happy to help ICly and OOCly.
Now a few suggestion on how to train more efficiently.
Combat:
- seeks the most powerful creature you can beat without loosing too much hit points, when you kill it too quickly switch to another more powerful one: it gives you more experience and more valuable loots
- use the arena: in a single map there is a broad range of different challenges, from newie (rats, clackers, ...) to maxed people (try challenging 2 dlayos at once).
- Don't use training dummies for exp!! Training dummies are there so you can safely test your attacks, your weapons, your spells without risking to die, you can even gain practice trough them but they will not give you any experience (on purpose!)
- Armor: always use armors! if you're a mage leather is your best friend, MA is the best choice for a fighter unless you have truly high STR stats, but when you train with the dummies your armor is useless and will only drain your stamina, put it off.
Crafting:
- even when you plan to grind a skill try to finish your product: you will maximize the tria, the experience you gain (and thus the practice you gain) and maybe you'll be less bored in the end
- the longer it takes for a process (the red/blue bar that pops up when crafting): the more experience and practice you gain!
- if you want to maximize your tria gain craft whatever you're able to get the highest quality, if you want to maximize the practice ponts (less training time) you have to craft the latest product your skill level allows you to craft. Example: if you keep hammering sword handles above 50 it will take forever to raise a level because it will give you few to non practice. Either way (if you finish the product) you should have enough exp to raise the skill to the next level.
Mining/Harvesting:
- to begin with look for a safe spot to dig harvest: there are many and even when dangerous NPCs are nearby they are usually programmed not to roam outside their given hunting field
- look for the "hot spot": the nearest you are to the field center the higher your chances to get the reward
- every field has a difficulty set, when your skill reaches past the point it's over the given diffculty you'll get less practice (or better get get the normal practice as you get a bonus each when your skill is lower than the difficulty)
- best way to gain tria is digging/mining until your inventory is full, don't run forth and back just to train!
On travels between cities:
- follow the track, it's safe from wandering monsters
- when you're spotted by a monster he turns to face you: get away from it and you won't be hurt.
- it you don't watch where you go you run the risk of running past a field full of ulbernauts: it's your fault!
Now I admit the case can be made that NPCs are too hard to fight currently.
Really, is that for real? :)
I keep hearing from a lot of people NPCs are too easy to fight, others complain the opposite :)
Mobs stats are the same since ages, the only thing that changed lately is their AI, I agree it can make things more challenging but well it was the purpose afterall :)
We have some problem in the lower end of the mobs' range of challenges because there is some power 'gap' that make it difficult for new players to find challenges that are not too hard for them but it's been like that since ages.
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MAKE THE GAME FULLY OPEN SOURCE!
and that's been my opinion for years..
The problem is the game is years old now and although a lot has changed, a lot hasn't.
Personally I don't think Planeshift will ever go back to the days of 200-300 people online at once.. unless something radical happens..
(http://s7.postimg.org/oqlgqdfln/onlinemonth4.png)
Graph from Dec 2011-Nov 2012
(http://s2.postimg.org/8uptpt52h/onlinemonthxxxxxxx.png)
Graph from Nov 2012-Oct 2013
The amount of new accounts is ever decreasing due to the fact that there are now far more free/better games avalible and the fact that PS is years old now many people already have opinions on it.
(http://s23.postimg.org/74d4qcsbf/charsmonthxxxxx.png)
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yep, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong... but are you all really sure that the problem of people fleeing from yliakum is only and exclusively in the game?
wait, okay, I'm not talking about those leaving bored because they feel like they were RPing in a desert, and RPing in a desert might be quite complex, no matter how many personalities/alts one is able to run.
what I'm trying to say is that I do not think new players go away because they're afraid of the slow development of the character or because they don't see crowds infesting the streets. I think they go away before they even notice these things.
and I think that it might perhaps be partly due to the "confusion" of site/forum/wiki. not that I'm complaining, and don't even think I'm totally right, as I've already said; but from time to time I think that these pages look like they were somehow abandoned/neglected.
there is a huge amount of stuff, and more... there is everything, true, but it's not very easy to consult, and there are old, useless tips close to new useful ones. good posts among boring ones… if someone seeks, then (s)he'll find everything (and then will lose the info again, and then will find it again and so on... ), but if someone takes a quick look and has no patience (as people might be lazy, or have no much spare time to spend) I think (s)he'll find other games, maybe even less worthy but with more "concentrated" and accessible instructions.
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Eonwind wrote:
About self sufficiency: this is multiplayer game, some challenges are especially designed for player's grouping. Albeit there are tons of challenges you can defeat single handedly there will be some you won't. Another point: if every player is self sufficient in not time what would be the point of markets, players helping other players and such.
I think sometimes players have the false expectation to reach self sufficiency very early on in every aspect of the game: asking for help to other players is not a crime, many people will be very happy to help ICly and OOCly.
If it is multiplayer game then why haven't the devs been concentrating on retaining players? It doesn't attack the problem to say that I need to play with other players when there is only 30 online total. My solution is to improve the levelling so that it doesn't take an insane amount of work to raise. Now, I don't mean to say to change it so that everyone can max a skill in 8 hours of play time which I think most people here seem to think my argument is. At the games current place, levelling is a huge grind. To make levelling easier while maintaining the challenge of it, is my solution. It is a balance.
I would also like to bring up a solution from the dev meeting that I think Talad mentioned. He mentioned to have more new skills and items and such since after an update the player levels rise a bit. I think this is good idea but from what I've seen it takes forever to get anything new put in the game due to the low level of volunteers. Maybe if the player base was greater, you would get more volunteers. To do this the game needs to be made more enjoyable.
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I would also like to bring up a solution from the dev meeting that I think Talad mentioned. He mentioned to have more new skills and items and such since after an update the player levels rise a bit. I think this is good idea but from what I've seen it takes forever to get anything new put in the game due to the low level of volunteers. Maybe if the player base was greater, you would get more volunteers. To do this the game needs to be made more enjoyable.
Not exactly a "solution." But I see what you mean.
The problem is that grinding isn't fun. Making it easier doesn't make it more fun. "Being maxed" isn't fun on its own either. The problem isn't that getting skills is boring. The problem is that using skills is boring. If there's more to do with skills, especially at medium levels, then the game will be more fun in general. Being "maxed" is an entirely separate thing that is totally unnecessary in my opinion.
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If it is multiplayer game then why haven't the devs been concentrating on retaining players? It doesn't attack the problem to say that I need to play with other players when there is only 30 online total. My solution is to improve the levelling so that it doesn't take an insane amount of work to raise. Now, I don't mean to say to change it so that everyone can max a skill in 8 hours of play time which I think most people here seem to think my argument is. At the games current place, levelling is a huge grind. To make levelling easier while maintaining the challenge of it, is my solution. It is a balance.
the devs try to retain players, but they cannot retain players just like they cannot make new players.
The devs have also made it easier to raise some skills a lot, they made a new tutorial so new players be welcomed better in the game and the tutorial provides a lot of items to get them started. Devs tried to make combat more interesting by making NPCs smarter, having them perform a wide range of attacks and defences and don't tell me a static and dumb NPC is fun to fight with becuase before it was introduced a lot more people complained the opposite.
Did it raise the player's count? Short answer: NO.
When did the player's count raised lately (albeit of a few units, about 10-15)? When events were run quite often, like when there was the invasion, the alchemist events, the ierefal fair, the magic fair and all the others events the GM team run.
But the devs cannot make the game, maintain the server, prepare the events and run the events. So that's where YOU the player's can help: help the GM team prepare an event, do your homework, show your idea, advertise the event in game and in the forum and the devs and the team will help as best as they can to support your event.
I would also like to bring up a solution from the dev meeting that I think Talad mentioned. He mentioned to have more new skills and items and such since after an update the player levels rise a bit. I think this is good idea but from what I've seen it takes forever to get anything new put in the game due to the low level of volunteers. Maybe if the player base was greater, you would get more volunteers. To do this the game needs to be made more enjoyable.
We are working a lot to introduce new stuff in game, at the moment we're working, along with prospects on:
- a lot (more than 10) new quests;
- reorganizing the existing quest chains to make them better and make more clear where to go next;
- improving the NPCs dialogue to better redirect the players to the next trainers
- 11 new spells of varying realms and ways from 1 to 5
- 2 new crafting skills and 1 new skill (lockpicking)
- an expansion of an existing skill
- a new character model (the nolthrir) in the last preparation stage
- many more things I won't even mention because they're still on early stage
- the usual flow of old and new bugfixes
It's a lot of work, for example introducing a new crafting takes at least 4 months if the workflow is not interrupted or there are problems to solve on the way.
A lot of peoples think they are smarter and will be better devs, we're glad to invite them to join us becoming prospects and test themselves. They will find out it takes patience and dedication but if they are dedicated enough they will have the chance to see their work released in game thus adding something new (or at least contributing to the game) and doing something [freely] for all the other people in-game.
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Eonwind, please don't take my post as saying nothing is being developed or that I think I am smarter than the developers. That is far from the truth. I was a little harsh in hitting your argument though. For that I apologize. I really appreciate what you and the other devs have done. I am trying to do the best I can by participating in giving ideas for development to fix a problem I see. If it is not the best solution than at least it promotes discussion to find the optimal solution. Thank you for letting us all know the list of what is getting worked on. It is interesting to know.
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A lot of peoples think they are smarter and will be better devs, we're glad to invite them to join us becoming prospects and test themselves.
Hopefully things have changed in that regard. A GM approached me some time back to join the team and all the i's were dotted and t's crossed and then it was wait. 2 month, 4 months, then after 9 months the hint was clear. Not sure of the politics involved yet from my experience the call for help is very selective.
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Eonwind, please don't take my post as saying nothing is being developed or that I think I am smarter than the developers. That is far from the truth. I was a little harsh in hitting your argument though. For that I apologize. I really appreciate what you and the other devs have done. I am trying to do the best I can by participating in giving ideas for development to fix a problem I see. If it is not the best solution than at least it promotes discussion to find the optimal solution. Thank you for letting us all know the list of what is getting worked on. It is interesting to know.
Eatuck I'm glad people like you take the chance to discuss about this and other problems and it means they care about the project. :)
I didn't want to pick on you or anyone else I just wanted to offer a new perspective and a challenge (to help the game) not only to you but to anyone willing to give it a try albeit warning beforehand won't be easy, not to scare away, but because some things can be harder than we may think.
I was glad to have the opportunity to write what we're working on because we're so busy with development, work and RL and we actually lack the time (and a PR department) to update all the players on our progresses.
I just want to say again one thing because I think it's a key point for raising the player's count: we need more events and any player can help with it!
Of course I'm not saying the game is perfect, there are a lot of things that needs to be improved, some mechanics speed up or some maybe removed and we're glad to players pointing out (possibly in a nice way) bugs and what they think it's not working well. Thanks.
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Speaking to the OP's issues with grinding: I suspect the entire skill system will need an overhaul well before we hit 1.0 :sorcerer:
Right now:
1) Stats carry far too much influence on the abilities of a character, which is what makes them so worthless for RP purposes. Some of my alts are very unduly difficult to play with their base stats due to mana/stamina shortages, frequent inventory overloads, etal. I'd be OK with a 50-150 scale (or 0-200 if needed); IF skills (weapon, armor, magic) would compensate to the point that a base-stats character with good skills could be truly and consistently effective in PvE with their tools of choice, and give them a chance in mechanics PvP as well.
2) The balance between magic Ways still has a...ways to go. RW, CW and DW are all fine, more or less: you can use those ways to hunt and defend yourself out of the gate. BlW is severely gimped by Freeze's uselessness against remotely strong mobs (it has a saving throw that is utterly disproportionate to the spell's status as the first BlW spell a mage learns), and suffers as well from being a DoT focused Way (but this is the lesser of the two problems it faces, as casts that try to apply an already-applied non-stackable effect still give practice, which is O.K. in my book). BrW requires a minor grinding chore (to realm 2) before you can do any DPS with it whatsoever, and defensive (tanking) magic in PS is not useful on its own (needs a non-zero y-intercept to do any good if you aren't already wearing armor), which should simply be fixed, full stop. AzW suffers from the same issues with defensive magic as BrW, and is an even more torturous grind as you have to reach realm 3 before you can use it for DPS. (A good line to remember about this: "War isn't about dying for your country, it's about making the other S.O.B. die for his!" or in MMO terms: "DPS is tank!"; in other words, one of the first principles for MMO combat is that damage-dealing is the only truly essential element to a fight.)
3) Weapon balance still suffers from some issues that have yet to be fully explored, but make life hard for chars who aren't RPing an archer, longsword wielder, or axe wielder. Mace/hammer users are hurt very hard by a lack of high-damage weaponry (perhaps the / gap needs to be narrowed again, just like it was when things like Silverweaves were nerfed)? Also, the Q/damage relationship is a good knob to adjust to balance Q300 crafted weapons against looted ones, and the global speed cap at 1.5s/swing hurts melee fighters and to some extent knife users, as 1.0s/swing Melee brings hand-to-hand fighting much closer to parity with baseline (looted) bladed weapons.
4) If body development and some related skills (perhaps repurpose a few) could be developed to a workable point, stats training could go the way of the dodo, to go with 1) above. Ideally, you could deal with carrying capacity + stamina, resilience (HP), and magical energy (Dweomer/Mana) via ingame skills alone.
5) Crafted HA should exist. Right now, HA wearers suffer an extreme penalty for being stuck with Q50; this shan't be so. The best way to make it not OP is to do the parallel of 3) and adjust the amount of extra defense higher Q armor gives you.
Some of these I hope are already on their way (crafted HA, improvements to BodyDev), others are more radical (such as a 1.0s/swing global delay cap, dialing back the influence of stats, or giving AzW some sort of weak 1st realm attack spell to give new mages a chance to go anywhere with it: as it stands right now, you basically have to 'bank' PP/tria then invest in up to 40 levels of steady grinding before you are useful in combat with the Way, which is quite silly). I hope this serves as food for thought though.
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A few words:
2) ways balance: a few of the spells we're working on include both a realm 1 BrW AND a realm 1 AW direct damage spells, of course don't expect the latter to be equally powerful as RW direct damage spell but this because azure way is not intended to have big damage dealing spells, its concept is a bit different but at least you will have something to defend yourself with (and train) early on!
3) Weapons balance: when Mace crafting project will be over (we're so close) a good range of blunt weapons, from mace to hammers will be available for crafting including plat steel version.
5) HA: yes it should exists but who is willing to make it? Aside the data problem I see a consistency problem with MA, to clearly speak my mind: MA crafting process is too difficult and too time expensive other than economically unbalanced, I would really like to streamline the crafting process (without remaking it whole which would be a huge waste of time) otherwise the HA crafting which will be ontop MA will be insanely hard to do, and this is something I want to avoid at all costs!
At last the hard time of 1.5s delay is there to avoid players from monopolizing the server resources with too quick weapons/actions, this is NOT something anyone want to (or should) get rid of. It's still to see if that hardcoded value can be tweaked bring a better overall balance with melee.
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Eonwind wrote:
MA crafting process is too difficult and too time expensive other than economically unbalanced, I would really like to streamline the crafting process (without remaking it whole which would be a huge waste of time) otherwise the HA crafting which will be ontop MA will be insanely hard to do, and this is something I want to avoid at all costs!
I agree completely. MA takes way too long to make (and mouse clicks) and requires a ton of resources. With the 19 stocks to make a 6 piece MA set (25 with 6-1 patterns), I could make 6 long swords and 1 sabre. The resources for MA just don't seem right to me.
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A few words:
2) ways balance: a few of the spells we're working on include both a realm 1 BrW AND a realm 1 AW direct damage spells, of course don't expect the latter to be equally powerful as RW direct damage spell but this because azure way is not intended to have big damage dealing spells, its concept is a bit different but at least you will have something to defend yourself with (and train) early on!
3) Weapons balance: when Mace crafting project will be over (we're so close) a good range of blunt weapons, from mace to hammers will be available for crafting including plat steel version.
5) HA: yes it should exists but who is willing to make it? Aside the data problem I see a consistency problem with MA, to clearly speak my mind: MA crafting process is too difficult and too time expensive other than economically unbalanced, I would really like to streamline the crafting process (without remaking it whole which would be a huge waste of time) otherwise the HA crafting which will be ontop MA will be insanely hard to do, and this is something I want to avoid at all costs!
At last the hard time of 1.5s delay is there to avoid players from monopolizing the server resources with too quick weapons/actions, this is NOT something anyone want to (or should) get rid of. It's still to see if that hardcoded value can be tweaked bring a better overall balance with melee.
2) Excellent! Now all that needs to be addressed is Freeze being well...wimpy against anything bigger than a rat.
3) This'll be nice. Crafted/looted parity and the / gap between base and top end looted are both good near-future issues once the crafting releases roll out.
5) Yes, crafted MA I heard is a pile of tedium, and making crafted HA worse in that regard would be a vast disservice. So, rebalancing MA crafting effort before implementing crafted HA (which AIUI would use crafted MA parts as feedstocks in addition to being built upon MA crafting skills-wise) would be acceptable.
As to the delay cap: I agree that we need one there to avoid server monopolization. The question is 'will 1.0s function there, or will that break more than it fixes?'
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2) Excellent! Now all that needs to be addressed is Freeze being well...wimpy against anything bigger than a rat.
I thought I fixed that problem long ago (along with all the other BlW spells that worked the same way) but maybe there is a bug, the only two only things that should stop a spell are magic resistance and a higher knowledge of the same way that should allow for a saving throws for reduced effects (like taking half damage).
As to the delay cap: I agree that we need one there to avoid server monopolization. The question is 'will 1.0s function there, or will that break more than it fixes?'
I can't really answer this question. For sure it won't break anything from the rules point of view but a too high server load can cause lags and other problems, but I can't really tell if lowering the value will affect the server so badly.
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Your player level issues stem from a multitude of reasons. Most of the longer term, been here for awhile players and devs alike already know of them and have hopefully acknowledged them and will try to continue to work on fixing them. Most they can with time and effort, but some they won't.
first, my recent port here: http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41475.msg468044#msg468044 The default UI is clunky, the default controls aren't setup to use the industry standard, and the camera controls need over hauled as well. Easily rectified with an overhaul to said controls. Easier said than done by a long shot.
Second, the world itself. Vast repetitive openness, with vaguely anything of interest placed in it. Zone after zone with a smattering of mobs to battle, herbs and rocks to mine, etc. I see some signage was put in along the paths in an attempt to try and help the player get between major points of interest, but it is very minimal and still easy to get lost. Some ease of use items have been added to help speed travel, and spice up the zones with camps and things but with the random invisible boundaries, hills and inclines that cause the player to glitch, and the still far too large openness fill with nothing of interest, desire of exploration isn't really promoted to the average player.
the economy is a bit wonky. price values, gold sinks, crafting materials, the process a player must go about to make items, etc seems far too convoluted and should be better streamlined. the current system is a work in progress so this wil improve as the game rules are continued to be fleshed out. some more simpler things that can be easily done is to better indicate to the player where they can go to at least hit a starter mine or herb or what not. and then from there let them go explore for the higher end things.
the community on the forums and more so the forums themselves. the whole no spoilers thing is a turn off. in the end, a person will find what they want to find; rather than shun you should first try to explain politely that the game is rp based and tries to promote in game character interaction to solve its quests, but if the player really wants to know the answer they could just click link X, or even better, the forum would have spoiler tags as most "modern age" forums go which would hide the contained info unless the person clicked it. the forums need to be kept tidy so players can easily search and find what they are looking for, especially the technical help areas. being greeted by a wall of search results, most from years back only puts the person off. it would also help if the appropriate people in charge of running the forums were given the appropriate access and rights to perform said functions.
some things that cant be "easily" changed would be simple facts like how long the game has been around and yet where its at in its current state after all this time. this day and age, it seems people are only busier and more demanding than ever. just look at how often other mmo's or even any type of game in general have to keep updating their finished projects with new features to keep their player base. there is simply a vast pool of games to keep players occupied nowadays. far different than what it was even 5 years ago, let alone when PS was one of the sole games out there that offered a free to play community driven, online game.
game advertisement is little to none. no, not paid ads trying to get people to buy something. simple things like setting up accounts on the indie gaming sites and utilizing community driven resources to help spur better game development, such as steam's greenlight. getting the word out about the game on the major places gamers these days use to search for games would attract a larger crowd to come try the game out and maybe a few would even what to devote some time to helping the project flourish. This again, also requires some changes to the mentality certain individuals on the dev team has when it comes to community driven game growth, but that is a completely different subject that could be had which I wont go into here.
keeping up with the latest gaming creation techniques from say sites like http://www.gamedev.net/page/index.html and implementing some of them would also go along way. that also ties in with the engine side of things PS runs off on, and joritt and his team with their crystal space engine i hope already do. i never really got that all involved on that side of the game much so i can't really say one way or the other how that is currently being addressed.
all in all, times have changed and PS really hasn't evolved along with it, which is the primary reason why player numbers are where they currently are. with a far larger pool of games to choose from that is currently out there, most people don't have as much patience to wait on a game to get to a point they feel it is worth their time to try out and play. There was a time when PS was a bit ahead or at least on the same level both game mechanic and graphical wise to the other games that were currently out, but now the industry has evolved at a far quicker pace and this project has been left behind.
But, there will always be those that enjoy the more casual approach, and will come through here and stay for awhile until they grow bored and move on to sometime else, and as they leave, others will take their place. the game will be continuously worked on throughout this, and the hobby project will continue to live on.
i can look back and say i've over all enjoyed all the time i've spent with the game, the community and being on the dev side of things, and as that is the primary reason why most people play games, so I guess PS is fulfilling its goals, even with its low player counts.
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Hello Planeshift Members,
I DISAGREE.
I do not feel the game has a lack of balance in roleplaying and ranking skills. It really depends who you run into and how well the conversation goes between two or more players (feeling their way through and deciding how much or how little roleplayng is needed).
Planeshift is a great game because I can naturally be myself (my character) and just naturally do what feels right to me.
The end result is that most players will decide what few skills for sure they want MAXED and work hard at them. Why? Because honestly, select skills help determine how you feel as your character. I personally (OOC) would feel upset and feel the game would be pointless if it was ONLY about role-playing.
Roleplaying works well for me ONLY when I eventually (convincingly) let others know what I am proficient at and how I want to contribute these proficiency toward the community in the game world.
GRINDING happens naturally in all games the first year (skills personality establishment) and then slowly the player feels the character is adequately representative and will roleplay his/her chracter more naturally over time.... This is normal and expected.
I think Planeshift is PERFECT just the way it is (allowing players to do what feels comfortable and enjoyable) and freely choose from day to day.
1.) Someday I log in and all I want to do is focus on my skills
2.) Someday I log in to earn TRIA
3.) Someday i log in just to explore and do strange things (like jump in weird parts of the map and hope I don't kill myself)
4.) Someday I log in because a 2 hour event is happening or a lot of players are on and you naturally just socialize allday
5.) Someday I log in to collect information to work on a expanding the wiki or making my own shared documents for others to use.
6.) Someday I log in just to chat for literally like 5+ hours (chat Tabs) in the gossip area and see if anything interesting is being said.
................the point is this............Planeshift is fine just the way it is because it doesn't limit how ONE can feel about doing things in the game. I don't PLAY games that limit my ability to be myself or my character.........that's called a DICTATORSHIP.
So everyone please stop worrying about what others are doing and focus on ONLY what makes you happy in game :detective:
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:thumbup: You understood.
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You don't roleplay, Adash.
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Adash, you don't understand roleplay. It requires common customs and rules of behavior.
And by the way, a game that limits what you and your character can do is not a dictatorship. A dictatorship is a form of government. All games (and life, by the way) limit you and your character.
Addition: You do roleplay, Adash, and you can. Just know that common customs are required for roleplay. That's all.
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I don't understand many of the role players here. Been on PS for 3 years and still don't get it. Who makes the rules that all of us must follow? I have been accused of god modding for rp'ing spells that I have! Many of those that rp don't know the limits or the abilities of the game mechanics. The "purists" want the rules to say what they want them to say and to disregard any of the game mechanics.
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The way roleplaying is now is much like it is elsewhere. So what do you mean by you don't "understand many of the role players here"? If you don't get it after 3 years, maybe you should try it in other places? Other games, forums, whatever... You'll find it's about the same.
I think many who roleplay do know the limits and abilities of the game mechanics. Unfortunately, we are often forced to work around them.
There are no purists. I'm not sure what you mean by that. When we say there are rules that only means you should treat other players with respect. That includes not godmodding, not powerplaying, and not metagaming. And not being a buttwipe.
I have never seen you in-game, cdmoreland, but if you were accused of godmodding for casting a spell, it could have been that you either 1) cast the spell without roleplaying it with the /me command, 2) assumed that whoever you were casting the spell on was immediately affected, and/or 3) typed over someone else before they had a chance to post.
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If you haven't ran into Waesed at some point, then you haven't been on when I am.
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If you haven't ran into Waesed at some point, then you haven't been on when I am.
Sure anyone who is anyone has heard of Waesed. Volki is catching up after having had an extended period of down time.
Make the game your own, as do others, trying to meet in some compromise of both's perspective.
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I don't understand many of the role players here. Been on PS for 3 years and still don't get it. Who makes the rules that all of us must follow? I have been accused of god modding for rp'ing spells that I have! Many of those that rp don't know the limits or the abilities of the game mechanics. The "purists" want the rules to say what they want them to say and to disregard any of the game mechanics.
Without details, nobody can say when you are being accused of god modding. The rules of RP and pretty standard with small details - like how to call success and failure. Google can find them for you.
Google search: Role Playing Rules (http://www.google.com/#q=role+playing+rules)
Google search: metagaming godmodding (http://www.google.com/#q=metagaming+godmodding)
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Yeeuup.
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Hi All,
Someone brought up a big issue at the last dev meeting and I wanted to say why I think the game has lost so many players (and can't retain new players) and give a solution. Frankly, I think the reason for lack of players is the game is one big grinding session. Yes, you can role play without grinding but to be able to do anything with your character using the game mechanics takes weeks to get any where. My solution is to simply make levelling significantly easier and fix crafting to make it faster with less clicks (will give a solution for that in another post). The game is for role play but in its current state, it is mostly all work. I think ultimately a game should be fun and not a grind. Yes the levelling was fixed a bit with the last update but it still needs to be increased significantly. I think a general rule should be whenever a change is proposed or looking at what is currently in the game, please ask yourself, will this add (or currently adds) work to the game or fun. If it adds more work than enjoyment, it should not be added or needs to changed.
That being said, I would like to end this portion on a positive note. I really like what you did with the rogues after the last update. When I tried to fight the rogues at camp banished and one them yelled for help I was pleasantly surprised. It was the most exciting death I have had in a long time. I loved it. Thank you very much for that.
Eatuck
Hello Eatuck, yesterday I was speaking with Menille about grinding time, skill levels and stamina drain. She pointed me to your thread so I would like to share my point of view. Currently I'm training the axe skill and let me say that to max out that skill takes a huge amount of time. In my opinion though, the time required to rise the skill isn't an issue, in fact keeping that hard and time consuming prevent to have a lot of players with maxed chars. Maxed chars should be sort of exceptions, were only the more devoted players reach the top level. What I think it should be improved though is the difference between each level of a skill. I mean, currently from what I can see (I don't have exact numbers) until level 100 in axe skill you are not really effective against mobs, and from level 150 to level 190 there isn't a huge difference in damage dealt. So, on an hypothetical graph where the x axis is the time spent (or skill level since they are somehow proportional) and the y axis is the damage dealt, the slope of the curve isn't steep enough. If that slope could be steeper, people could be satisfied stopping for example at level 100, were the most devoted in training could aim to reach level 200 with a huge difference from lower level characters (because after all they master that skill and no other npc, even in BD Fortess, you can find with better proficiency).
Little off topic (but not so much): the more you train in a certain skill the less your stamina should be drained, currently it seems just a constant related to the fighting stance. In my opinion, the more I train in axe skill the less stamina should be drained while swinging my axes.
Those are just my thoughts! :)
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Hi Jawir,
Thank you for your response. I do agree with you for the most part. I think there would need to be some middle ground in there though. For example, the levelling could be sped up (not a huge amount but significant) and then add in your idea for greater improvements with each level. That way players gain ranks quicker as well as gaining a greater reward for each rank. Of course there will be players that play every day and obtain max skills fairly quickly but that shouldn't be at the expense of players that don't login as often.
Eatuck
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[...] the slope of the curve [for damage as a function of weapon skill] isn't steep enough. If that slope could be steeper, people could be satisfied stopping for example at level 100, were the most devoted in training could aim to reach level 200 with a huge difference from lower level characters
Personally, I think less players are "satisfied" with non-maximal skill ranks if the top skills will make a "huge difference". The "slope" or usefulness per skill seems okay to me. Especially if you take into account the very significant effect of (rare) equipment.
Little off topic (but not so much): the more you train in a certain skill the less your stamina should be drained, currently it seems just a constant related to the fighting stance. In my opinion, the more I train in axe skill the less stamina should be drained while swinging my axes.
Those are just my thoughts! :)
Considering stamina usage, I also thought it would be a great aspect of skill progression, especially for defensive ones, like shield and armor skills, where a higher damage reduction does not make much sense IC, but is very convenient in terms of rule complexity.
However, we should really avoid to make the life of low level characters more cumbersome - imagine increased stamina usage on low weapon skill times low armor skill levels, times low physical base stats: Not funny.
On the other side, higher skills could easily lead to total irrelevance of stamina mechanics. From this point of view, the current rules do not seem bad to me.
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Personally, I think less players are "satisfied" with non-maximal skill ranks if the top skills will make a "huge difference".
This is the main reason I'd like to keep the current levelling speed, so each one can find the proper trade off between damage dealt and time spent training. :)
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I have two parts to this message:
One, I would be against the implementation of stats being used in RP settings for a lot of the previously stated reasons, however one important factor that is missing is that sometimes in an RP setting a player needs to create a character to fulfill a certain role (an exceptionally strong warrior, a deamon bent on the characters destruction, a super intelligent alchemist, ect.) with significantly higher stats. In some cases these should be higher than even a character's maximum. I feel that the proposed change would greatly hinder that capacity.
Secondly, and this is more to where the thread has lead rather than the original topic :offtopic:, one problem I see at least in this thread is that we have a lot of older, more experienced players arguing about what new players want and why they are leaving/not continuing . I think that it might be best if instead of arguing on behalf of the new player, if you got a commission of newer players together to create a list of their challenges and viewpoints. They might even be able to offer solutions, but I think even just the list of challenges would be a great help for the development of the game toward the newer player.
So my proposal would be for the gathered experienced players to contact a new player (maybe a median of a month in), maybe one that you have taken under your wing or even brought into the game and invite them into a development roundtable much like the regularly scheduled DEV Q&A were they can just talk about, vent, or maybe even rant about the issues they see. Have some Devs present to listen and take notes, but have it be really low key and OOC without their sponsoring character present (some might be hesitant to be honest with all of their frustrations if they were there too). Who knows, maybe even just having a mini community of new players might help with retention.