PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Volki on November 03, 2013, 03:38:25 am
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This is probably the first time anyone has ever complained about this particular thing.
There are roleplayers who strut around town in full platemail, 24/7. Most roleplayers do this, actually.
I'm here to tell you all that this is ridiculous. Plate armor should only ever be worn in combat, at a post, or at a dressy event.
It is not possible to run from Hydlaa to Gugrontid in full plate armor during the day without overheating or collapsing from exhaustion. It is not possible to outrun an unarmored man while you are wearing full plate armor. It is not possible to defeat a mob of men just because you are wearing full plate armor.
I know that everyone in Game of Thrones is wearing plate all over all the time. Yes, it looks cool. But those are costumes, and it is not historically accurate.
Also, fighting in armor is much different than fighting armored. I tried to find some realistic examples of swordfighting. Hopefully these help some of you.
Armored fighting, showing many basic techniques. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqOMbFDEAI
Unarmored fighting with longswords. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc
Sword and shield fighting. Felt like I should throw this in here. No one seems to know how to use them, and I think that's why there are very few shield-users. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkhpqAGdZPc
Anyway, you can see the difference between armored and unarmored fighting. For some variation, I'll also include an accurate scene from a movie. Unarmored fighting which resembles fencing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhwIrONyEzg
Armored individuals would be hard to take down one-on-one or on the battlefield. However, they could easily be killed if they were mobbed because they lacked mobility. There is no such thing as impervious armor. There are unprotected segments around the joints, the neck, and the face. So it is unwise to wander around the city in full-plate. You could be jumped any moment, unable to outrun your attacker, and stabbed quite easily when you had not even drawn your weapon.
The more logical approach toward protection is leather armor or light chainmail.
You can argue that my complaint is pointless since this is a game and games are unrealistic, but we have always striven to be somewhat realistic in roleplay. The inconsistencies bother me. I would like to see things like armor and weapons make a difference. I'd like to see people knowing what they are roleplaying. I'd like to see heroes in shining armor be shivved to death in an alley by unencumbered rogues. :devil:
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Volki, you hit the problem right on the nose.
Kull wears leather and light chainmail for protection. The latter addition is new, and probably won't be used for much longer, since it reduces agility. I assembled his clothing and armor based on these factors you highlight. This requires some basic knowledge.
Anyone can do it, and must. Why? Because to do otherwise is to limit your and other roleplayers' fun, immersion and mutual respect.
To roleplay, as Volki notes, a character in full plate all day long is simply nonsense. It does not function, and don't forget my character will see you as a fool, as tired, and might shove a dagger through your throat while you clumsily meander through a dark alleyway. Unless, of course, your character is fast, energetic and impervious in this armor. In which case, well, we aren't going to roleplay.
Solid post.
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I support ALL those who wear whatever they want, how ever much they want, wherever they want.
Role- Playing is fun BUT OCD, obsessed role-players are frowned upon.
Also, I think If a player can prove they have 300+ in strength, agility and endurance, THEN it's accurate to be able to run around in plate-mail all day long (with some small trips to the local tavern for meat and drink of course).
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I have to disagree with this post.
I sincerely believe it has been brought up before, maybe more than once.
:P
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I think I'm going to loot some more plate armor and wear it.
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I support ALL those who wear whatever they want, how ever much they want, wherever they want.
Oh, please.
Role- Playing is fun BUT OCD, obsessed role-players are frowned upon.
First, Sarras asserts that players ought to seek consistency and to some extent realism in order to balance armor-wearing in roleplay. This is a reasonable assertion, and a requirement of highly functional roleplay, especially in terms of combat. To argue otherwise is nonsense. To insinuate, as you do, that it is OCD to seek such a thing is, also, nonsense.
Also, I think If a player can prove they have 300+ in strength, agility and endurance, THEN it's accurate to be able to run around in plate-mail all day long (with some small trips to the local tavern for meat and drink of course).
A player does not need to prove they have 300+ stats to wear plate armor, since they merely need to have it, not prove it, to wear plate armor. It is, also, not accurate to roleplay such an act. There is no clear equivalent in roleplay to 300+ stats besides general terms, and even then, no one is without flaws.
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Actually Lumi use plate mail + LA Torso because it look nice.
I think most of the time it's just esthetic criterion. If you read DESC i am not sure that their char is actually wearing plate mail.
The day we have more choice on the outfit (when Tailoring is implemented ?), we will wear something else all day long i am sure :-)
Just my opinion.
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I want to second the op. Wearing no armor to be a mage only, Pakerl always meets people in full plate armor, who run exactly as fast as she does. And the mounts of these people also do not tire....
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Heavy armour isn't in fact that heavy: Actually a full suit of heavy armour would weight less than the usual gear a modern soldier carries into battle. Here is an interesting discussion on various misconceptions about medieval armour: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1dqhgl/was_medieval_armor_generally_heavy_plate_steel/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1dqhgl/was_medieval_armor_generally_heavy_plate_steel/) .
Even so, wearing plate constantly seems like a hassle I think only the most paranoid would go through.
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I created Waesed as a hunter, so leather is the logical choice. I have had to train HA after the "balancing" of crafted armor. My computer is not that good and I die when I lag if my armor doesn't provide enough protection. I have witnessed Sarras take on ulbers without any armor. I wish I could play that well.
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Hmm, Volki, how many items and how many tria are your characters normally carrying with them? Which total weight?
If we start like this, we should also point out that:
- It takes at least hours, if not days, to forge a sword or an armor.
- Cooking is not done in five minutes, either. And who does the dishes, btw?
- Proper skinning to get a usable hide is done with special tools only. Bodies take more than five minutes to rot away.
- etc
This is a fantasy setting, so we should not be too strict with realism.
Regards, Gonger
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This is a fantasy setting, so we should not be too strict with realism.
That may be true yet the OP has a point. It does not bother me to the point of complaining yet such characters loose credibility in my eyes when playing. (Things like self proclaimed rangers wearing heavier armour.)
Fantasy or no, making the character credible has to be a big part of RP n'est pas?
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Fantasy or no, making the character credible has to be a big part of RP n'est pas?
Absolutely!!! But I am less strict than the Original Poster, and rather look at the character's description than his current armor. Call me lazy, but I do not see much sense in removing my armor whenever I am not fighting. (And who is going to help my character doing this? There is a reason medieval knights had squires.)
Let us be credible in our RP, absolutely, but be not too strict about details.
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@Tzarhunt You are correct on the weight and the hassle. However, wearing full plate all day is a tremendous burden.
@Gonger I'm in agreement with you: people can wear whatever they like OOCly but ICly (the description) should be balanced, consistent and to some extent realistic. I do think, however, that armor supported by mechanics is simply a visual aid, but not a requirement. So what I mean is: fight, train and run around in whatever you like, but when it comes to roleplay, that's a different matter.
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We make Description text with details about our outfits EXACTLY because we don't have variety yet available by mechanic aka everyday life outfit, smithing apron, ceremony robe, mage robe for some races and so on.
Lumi wears HA for esthetic but if you read DESC you will see that she's not. I used to swtich to LA when going for cooking session but i just forget sometimes :D
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Heavy armour isn't in fact that heavy: Actually a full suit of heavy armour would weight less than the usual gear a modern soldier carries into battle. Here is an interesting discussion on various misconceptions about medieval armour: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1dqhgl/was_medieval_armor_generally_heavy_plate_steel/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1dqhgl/was_medieval_armor_generally_heavy_plate_steel/) .
Even so, wearing plate constantly seems like a hassle I think only the most paranoid would go through.
I have been a subscriber to that subreddit for a long time. I probably read that post when it was made.
50 lbs is heavy. It is heavy when it is covering your entire body. Modern infantrymen do not wear gear all over their body. It is quick and easy to remove, unlike a full set of plate armor. 50 lbs also makes a difference when you compare it to an unencumbered individual. Saying that it isn't heavy because 50 lbs is manageable doesn't mean it can't negatively impact your ability to do certain things. It's also a can of metal. You run around in that all day in the heat of the Dome, and you'll lose all your water weight. No one ever wore full plate like many of the characters in PS.
Also... Quoting reddit is like saying "My dad told me ___!"
@Gonger, I separate IC from OOC and assume my character is probably really carrying a quarter of the things in her inventory.
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@Gonger, I separate IC from OOC and assume my character is probably really carrying a quarter of the things in her inventory.
And by some RP miracle it is just the quarter you need at any given time. Please pardon my chuckle... ;D
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I don't recall seeing anything in the settings about average temperature. Getting too close to the crystal is indeed fatal but there does not seem to be canon that says what the energy falloff from it is. It is just as possible that the ground radiates the heat from whatever source is outside the stalactite that makes the interior livable. Certainly the dark crystal in the death realm is not particularly hot, not that that means too much.
I do wonder where the seasons in the character creation come from because as far as I know the relation of the crystal and the land mass is static and not at all Earth-like.
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@Gonger, I separate IC from OOC and assume my character is probably really carrying a quarter of the things in her inventory.
And by some RP miracle it is just the quarter you need at any given time. Please pardon my chuckle... ;D
Actually, it's consistently two knives, a water pouch, glyphs, and that's mostly it. My character went around for a month or two without her longsword. There were several situations where it would have come in handy, but I roleplayed that she did not have it. If my description says something, I have to abide it.
I don't recall seeing anything in the settings about average temperature. Getting too close to the crystal is indeed fatal but there does not seem to be canon that says what the energy falloff from it is. It is just as possible that the ground radiates the heat from whatever source is outside the stalactite that makes the interior livable. Certainly the dark crystal in the death realm is not particularly hot, not that that means too much.
The climates described in the settings point to differences in temperature. I always assumed the Dome was the warmest level. And livable does not mean comfortable. The Dome seems comfortable to me, but you could easily make it uncomfortable by covering yourself in armor and running great distances. Which is silly.
I'm not saying that every player needs to take off their plate armor. What I am saying is try to maintain some believability when you're roleplaying.
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I do wonder where the seasons in the character creation come from because as far as I know the relation of the crystal and the land mass is static and not at all Earth-like.
I think it has to do with the strength of the solar energy that the great crystal absorbs as it is with the day/night cycle.
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This discussion reminds me of the time when people were upset because some folks were running around in
Hydlaa with swords drawn. This was before the npc guards would nag you as you entered the city.
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Thankfully it stopped.
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Actually, it's consistently two knives, a water pouch, glyphs, and that's mostly it. My character went around for a month or two without her longsword. There were several situations where it would have come in handy, but I roleplayed that she did not have it. If my description says something, I have to abide it.
Volki, after rereading what you wrote in this thread, I think I may have misunderstood you, at least partly.
If you play your character that consistently, my respects. But you should not expect others to be consistent to the same extent. As I said, I do not see much sense in removing my plate armor after every fight, and most others seem to feel the same way.
Still, I play my character consistently in the best way I can. I might extend my description, though, since right now there is nothing about armor in it.
Best regards,
Gonger
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It also takes at least 15 minutes to put a suit of armor on. Should we have our characters stand still for a while every time we change equipment? Also, if you're not wearing your armor while traveling, how are you carrying it to where you're going to fight? If you have a mount, your mount could carry it, but not everyone does. I don't know but I assume wearing 50 lbs of armor is easier than carrying it all.
Can't we just say that the races in this fantasy game setting are stronger and/or more athletic than knights in medieval Europe and therefore could get be alright carrying/wearing their armor while walking around? Seems easier...
I do agree that wearing heavier equipment should cause stamina to drain faster. But I think this was added in an update a few months back, right? Also people wearing heavy armor in a fight should RP the decreased mobility.
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Your suggestions sounds very sensible tman. One has to only take realism so far in a world where cats can talk. ;)
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Can't we just say that the races in this fantasy game setting are stronger and/or more athletic than knights in medieval Europe and therefore could get be alright carrying/wearing their armor while walking around? Seems easier...
Yes, we are much stronger, our "str" goes up to 400 \\o// :sorcerer:
Proof of which is the fact that we can carry around sacks containing loads of gold ore, shelving, gigantic, wooden storage crates, lots of swords and battle axes, full suits of armor.. and books... and then leap from tall buildings with this sack slung over our shoulders and land safely on the ground.
Sadly, despite this terrific strength, we cannot jump very high, but I'm fine with that.
As for changing armor on the fly, I just click my shortcut and BLAM! I'm instantly fabulous! It's like... magic, and it makes me happy.
*Does freaky, zombie-like happy dance*
(http://wiki.urbandead.com/images/d/d9/Zombie-dance.jpg)
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It also takes at least 15 minutes to put a suit of armor on. Should we have our characters stand still for a while every time we change equipment?
lolno
I am talking strictly for RP. Have you seen the things I do OOCly? I defy physics and have silly PVP duels in the plaza. But ICly my character follows the laws of Hydlaa and the laws of physics.
The stuff you do when you're not roleplaying is no one's business. However, when you're in a roleplay, I feel it would be better to abide by some realism so we all have a common understanding of what can and can't happen.
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A roleplay is a thing now? I thought for sure that everything a role player does is part of the role they play. That is one of the biggest problems I have with role playing I frequently run around like a headless chicken when the semi-conductors in my head short out. I must look a sight! I do not distinguish between those times and others where I appear normal, it is all part of my character. Yliakum is one giant Looney Bin. I suppose if nobody sees it happening you can claim it never did.
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I'm sure most of us have the intellectual capacity to determine whether someone is behaving ICly or OOCly.
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One of the first rules of game design taught is to design the game in a way that it makes it easy for the end player to pick up and interact with. Friendliness to the player is what makes a huge impact on first impressions. This idea isn't to be considered the same as game difficulty however. That is a completely different subject.
Friendliness of use describes player interaction, mostly with the GUI and controls. If moving the avatar around in the world feels clunky, they get stuck a bunch, or just downright doesn't work intuitively, then that will throw many players off to the game and they will leave for other ones. The concept goes deeper tahn that, I'm summarizing here for brevity.
You have to balance "proper roleplay etique" with ease of use. The example of unsheathed swords in town as example. Now, the guards at the gates reminding the player is a good start, but really the default UI should come with a pre-programmed button to auto sheath and unsheath weapons for ease of use. Otherwise the npcs just seem to be annoyances to most people.
I'm not going to take a side on if players should take off the armor while townign about, but I will say that whatever you decide, the decsion should be supported in the root game mechanics to make the rules of the game be as friendly as possible to the player.
PS is in that funny half way transition period where the community/devs are still trying to flesh out all the rules for the game, while at the same time trying to decide how they will fairly implement them.
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But ... but ... but, role players are never out of character, are they, cuz then how could they ever complain about out of character behavior of others?
cake <--> eat it.
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But ... but ... but, role players are never out of character, are they, cuz then how could they ever complain about out of character behavior of others?
cake <--> eat it.
Have you been snacking on lead ingots or something? :detective:
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But ... but ... but, role players are never out of character, are they, cuz then how could they ever complain about out of character behavior of others?
cake <--> eat it.
I think a lot of roleplayers try to stay in character as much as possible. For example, only training a small set of skills that the character knows or wants to learn. Using certain Ways and not others. Sometimes you have to break character; for example, I've done a few quests for glyphs that my character maybe wouldn't have done, but there was no other way to get those items IC (other than buying them from the hyper-inflated player market).
And some people just like messing around with the game mechanics. Is there a reason your character is trying to jump over the city wall on a drifter? Probably not. The player just wanted to see if it could be done. Or if a player has to go AFK, their character isn't able to react to anything that happens. I think most RPers try to minimize OOC time, especially if other people are around.
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Fair point tman.
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drinking quicksilver.
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drinking quicksilver.
:)
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In ancient China, it was believed that drinking mercury would bring immortality. An emperor, believing this, had his alchemists create a potion containing mercury. It killed him.
:offtopic:
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The in and our of character convenience gets my goat too. There have been experiences where I greet someone at a mine with a smithy alt of mine and they say "I am really not here this is ooc". Malarkey! Those ooc actions like attempting to jump the walls or acting weird in the plaza can be part of my in game experience. So to expect me to know to ignore it is not only pretentious to assume that one would know or take the time to know the other's intentions but completely unthoughtful in regards to others' playing experience and immersion.
This thread has been great to show me that it has not been me trying, without success, to make sense of this illusive thing which many call rp. There appears to be no sense to be made by it as interpretation varies from player to player with no commonality of rules made doubly frustrating as there are many that come off as professional rpers acting as if they know that rule set. The laugh is everyone is making it up as they go to suit their fancy.
[edit: P.S. The biggest bell ringer, when reviewing log files of witnesses when compiling a chronicle of an appearance of Talad in the Hydlaa, was Talad using smiley faces during the rp. Oh wait he was probably ooc and I should have known! The joke is that the head of this thing is probably not an rper. It would explain the divergence of development to policy. ]
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A bit off topic, but should I read this to mean that alternative, daily-living clothes will be a thing?
I would be behind that 100% and would even jump in on development.
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The in and our of character convenience gets my goat too. There have been experiences where I greet someone at a mine with a smithy alt of mine and they say "I am really not here this is ooc". Malarkey! Those ooc actions like attempting to jump the walls or acting weird in the plaza can be part of my in game experience. So to expect me to know to ignore it is not only pretentious to assume that one would know or take the time to know the other's intentions but completely unthoughtful in regards to others' playing experience and immersion.
This thread has been great to show me that it has not been me trying, without success, to make sense of this illusive thing which many call rp. There appears to be no sense to be made by it as interpretation varies from player to player with no commonality of rules made doubly frustrating as there are many that come off as professional rpers acting as if they know that rule set. The laugh is everyone is making it up as they go to suit their fancy.
[edit: P.S. The biggest bell ringer, when reviewing log files of witnesses when compiling a chronicle of an appearance of Talad in the Hydlaa, was Talad using smiley faces during the rp. Oh wait he was probably ooc and I should have known! The joke is that the head of this thing is probably not an rper. It would explain the divergence of development to policy. ]
The last part about Talad is funny.
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This is probably the first time anyone has ever complained about this particular thing.
There are roleplayers who strut around town in full platemail, 24/7. Most roleplayers do this, actually.
I'm here to tell you all that this is ridiculous. Plate armor should only ever be worn in combat, at a post, or at a dressy event.
It is not possible to run from Hydlaa to Gugrontid in full plate armor during the day without overheating or collapsing from exhaustion. It is not possible to outrun an unarmored man while you are wearing full plate armor. It is not possible to defeat a mob of men just because you are wearing full plate armor.
I know that everyone in Game of Thrones is wearing plate all over all the time. Yes, it looks cool. But those are costumes, and it is not historically accurate.
Also, fighting in armor is much different than fighting armored. I tried to find some realistic examples of swordfighting. Hopefully these help some of you.
Armored fighting, showing many basic techniques. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqOMbFDEAI
Unarmored fighting with longswords. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc
Sword and shield fighting. Felt like I should throw this in here. No one seems to know how to use them, and I think that's why there are very few shield-users. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkhpqAGdZPc
Anyway, you can see the difference between armored and unarmored fighting. For some variation, I'll also include an accurate scene from a movie. Unarmored fighting which resembles fencing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhwIrONyEzg
Armored individuals would be hard to take down one-on-one or on the battlefield. However, they could easily be killed if they were mobbed because they lacked mobility. There is no such thing as impervious armor. There are unprotected segments around the joints, the neck, and the face. So it is unwise to wander around the city in full-plate. You could be jumped any moment, unable to outrun your attacker, and stabbed quite easily when you had not even drawn your weapon.
The more logical approach toward protection is leather armor or light chainmail.
You can argue that my complaint is pointless since this is a game and games are unrealistic, but we have always striven to be somewhat realistic in roleplay. The inconsistencies bother me. I would like to see things like armor and weapons make a difference. I'd like to see people knowing what they are roleplaying. I'd like to see heroes in shining armor be shivved to death in an alley by unencumbered rogues. :devil:
It's also somewhat of a rock-paper-scissors thing to a limited and specific extent. Heavy plate armor won't help much against a halberd. There are arrows that cause devastating wounds but bounce off of armor, and there are arrows designed to piece armor. A flanged mace might look silly but it's specifically designed to hurt armored opponents. The stiletto was armor piercing, although it was especially used to finish off fighters that were on the ground, but I can imagine it being effective in backstabbing and assassination.
It would be nice though if your armor affects how fast you can run and how quickly your endurance is drained. In a fantasy setting though, where you have people with super-human abilities and magic and enchanted items and fantasy materials, you have to be somewhat forgiving when things get unrealistic.
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Once again,
who is anyone to determine how one role-plays in their apparel choices?
ONLY developer game mechanisms will determine if and when certain (armour, weapons and other gear being carried) will have certain negative or positive effects.
Until the developers create rules for gear based on common sense, players have no reason to think about consequences of what they are wearing, because there simply aren't any.
LOGICAL OPTIONS LATER THAT COULD BE CODED/ARE CODED:
The ability to wear them........
Light Weight Armour (low amount of endurance + strength needed)
Medium Weight Armour (medium amount of endurance + strength needed)
Heavy Weight Armour ((high amount of endurance + strength needed)
The ability to wear magical attributed items........
(more and more amount of charisma + intelligence needed for more complex magical neck/back/ring wearable components)
(more and more amount of charisma + intelligence + will needed for more complex magical other armour/weapons wearable components)
The ability to use a certain weapon or wear a specific armour type.......
(specific amount of points in specific skill needed for more complex found weapons/armour) (COMBAT TAB)
.................basically, unless there is an algorithmic code written for it, then only will players abide by these technical parameters for RPing.
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Once again,
who is anyone to determine how one role-plays in their apparel choices?
ONLY developer game mechanisms will determine if and when certain (armour, weapons and other gear being carried) will have certain negative or positive effects.
Until the developers create rules for gear based on common sense, players have no reason to think about consequences of what they are wearing, because there simply aren't any.
LOGICAL OPTIONS LATER THAT COULD BE CODED/ARE CODED:
The ability to wear them........
Light Weight Armour (low amount of endurance + strength needed)
Medium Weight Armour (medium amount of endurance + strength needed)
Heavy Weight Armour ((high amount of endurance + strength needed)
The ability to wear magical attributed items........
(more and more amount of charisma + intelligence needed for more complex magical neck/back/ring wearable components)
(more and more amount of charisma + intelligence + will needed for more complex magical other armour/weapons wearable components)
The ability to use a certain weapon or wear a specific armour type.......
(specific amount of points in specific skill needed for more complex found weapons/armour) (COMBAT TAB)
.................basically, unless there is an algorithmic code written for it, then only will players abide by these technical parameters for RPing.
Features are always being added though. And while something might be coded a certain way, there's also the spirit of the setting and allowing others to enjoy the game.
Shields are another example though, staying on topic. Shields are almost useless if the approaching army has skirmishers outfitted with pilums. But shields are given a lot of importance in RPGs, whereas many people right now are typing "pilum" into google as they read this.
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I read some silly things when looking through the skills window yesterday. Under Mace & Hammer, you see "blunt trauma not as effective as piercing weapons" (what do you think they are used for?). Melee is stated as being "fast to learn" (what?) and requiring "more expensive equipment" (why?). And as everyone knows, axe is "harder to learn", which I've never understood with this game. And then there's shield handling, which for some odd reason only trains defense with a shield and zero offense. I am not sure why there are even any defense skills, like shield or armors. Armor should protect noobs just as well as it protects experts.
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I'm not going to lie, I didn't read most of this thread. This is all I have to add:
You see a heavy-set Dwarf laboring to walk under a rusty set of plate armor. Well, let's be fair here, you'll have smelled him before you saw him. His beard is greasy and slick with sweat, which drips off of his exposed battle tokens with the hair all knotted up around them. Sparks fly around his feet as his metal accoutrements scrape loudly across the paving stones. He can't walk very fast for all the weight. The sheathes that house his two claymores are getting worn down from being similarly dragged along. Ask him why he's so well-protected. I dare you.
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A dwarf with claymores... ::|
That's already impossible !
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But I have seen that often. It looks ridiculously like a Clacker...
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dual wielding claymores used to be the thing to do......
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Try not lose the fantasy aspect in pursuit of realism.
Sometimes realism sucks...
For example:
*Getting sick unexpectedly and dying. Knock on wood...
*Falling down when drunk and breaking and arm or spraining an ankle
*Not being awesome or successful
*Living a plain, ordinary, uneventful life.
*Having to wear the same boring clothes every day.
*Not being able to run around in heavy metal armor with the sword of awesomeness and "1 ton shield of Oh no, you can't touch this, bitch."
*Not being able to just pull things out of your ass and chalk it up as magic.
It's kind of nice how in fantasy fiction, some allowances are made so that life is a little more awesomer. You can sit there and read or play it and be all like, "Dude, wouldn't that be cool? I totally wish life was like that. I'de give my left nut to be Randolph the dual clay wielding midget from hell and part time baker" instead of being all like, "Bummer. I am like sooo greatful for my quasi-meaningful life as an envelope licker and public assistance recipient."
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Suspension of disbelief must be maintained.
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/me hangs disbelief off the eagle's beak, "Tell us lies we can believe!"
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Shields are another example though, staying on topic. Shields are almost useless if the approaching army has skirmishers outfitted with pilums. But shields are given a lot of importance in RPGs, whereas many people right now are typing "pilum" into google as they read this.
sorry to be a nitpicker but ... pilum were not especially effective against shields by themselves, what made them especially effective was the way they were used by roman army: they were used against charging army when they were covering about the last 30-20m. The good coordination of the centurions fore lines trowing the pilum all at once against the charging enemies made it so a rain of pilum landed on the enemy and was very effective at stopping the charge in many battles. The only reason why a shield was not very effective is because it's very hard to make an efficient use of a shield while charging on foot, especially against incoming projectiles. Same could be said for arrows but what made the pilum an effective weapon for the roman army is they didn't need a specialized soldier to use it (unlike archers), the same soldier was trained to trow the pilum then switch to the spatha or gladium (depending on the historical age) to engage in melee combat once the distance with the enemy was covered.
Still shields were and are the best way to protect oneself from long range and short range attacks even nowadays, of course provided they can stop the projectiles (which is not the case with firearms but police still use it against mobs).
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Shields are another example though, staying on topic. Shields are almost useless if the approaching army has skirmishers outfitted with pilums. But shields are given a lot of importance in RPGs, whereas many people right now are typing "pilum" into google as they read this.
sorry to be a nitpicker but ... pilum were not especially effective against shields by themselves, what made them especially effective was the way they were used by roman army: they were used against charging army when they were covering about the last 30-20m. The good coordination of the centurions fore lines trowing the pilum all at once against the charging enemies made it so a rain of pilum landed on the enemy and was very effective at stopping the charge in many battles. The only reason why a shield was not very effective is because it's very hard to make an efficient use of a shield while charging on foot, especially against incoming projectiles. Same could be said for arrows but what made the pilum an effective weapon for the roman army is they didn't need a specialized soldier to use it (unlike archers), the same soldier was trained to trow the pilum then switch to the spatha or gladium (depending on the historical age) to engage in melee combat once the distance with the enemy was covered.
Still shields were and are the best way to protect oneself from long range and short range attacks even nowadays, of course provided they can stop the projectiles (which is not the case with firearms but police still use it against mobs).
I thought pilums lodged themselves in shields though, so that they would need to be discarded? And were they only used against charges? Or were they also used by skirmishers to soften up defenders in advance of Roman attacks?
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Pila were used like Q-tips. Duh.
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Pila were used like Q-tips. Duh.
So everyone stuck them in their ears, despite the warning specifically telling them not to?
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I thought pilums lodged themselves in shields though, so that they would need to be discarded? And were they only used against charges? Or were they also used by skirmishers to soften up defenders in advance of Roman attacks?
sometimes the pilum lodged itself in the enemy shield and sometime it was designed so after they landed they would break so they could not have been taken by the enemy and thrown back to roman soldier, this depends not only on the historical age but also by single battle decision made by the consul - of course one of the reason why the romans were so effective in battle was the habit to adapt their strategies.
Likewise it surely happened the pilum was used in skirmishes and not only against charging opponents but as far as we can tell this was not the "mainstream" use of the pilum as the favored tactic of the legion was to switch to the gladium when engaging the enemy at short distance.
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The only reason why a shield was not very effective is because it's very hard to make an efficient use of a shield while charging on foot, especially against incoming projectiles. Same could be said for arrows but what made the pilum an effective weapon for the roman army is they didn't need a specialized soldier to use it (unlike archers), the same soldier was trained to trow the pilum then switch to the spatha or gladium (depending on the historical age) to engage in melee combat once the distance with the enemy was covered.
Still shields were and are the best way to protect oneself from long range and short range attacks even nowadays, of course provided they can stop the projectiles (which is not the case with firearms but police still use it against mobs).
Indeed shields were efficient ! Especially the one drawed for roman army, long and curved to protect all the vital parts of the body (chest and all this). Shields were used as crests aswell, for the uniform of the legion. It must have been heavy tho... brave soldiers :sweatdrop:
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I thought pilums lodged themselves in shields though, so that they would need to be discarded? And were they only used against charges? Or were they also used by skirmishers to soften up defenders in advance of Roman attacks?
sometimes the pilum lodged itself in the enemy shield and sometime it was designed so after they landed they would break so they could not have been taken by the enemy and thrown back to roman soldier, this depends not only on the historical age but also by single battle decision made by the consul - of course one of the reason why the romans were so effective in battle was the habit to adapt their strategies.
Likewise it surely happened the pilum was used in skirmishes and not only against charging opponents but as far as we can tell this was not the "mainstream" use of the pilum as the favored tactic of the legion was to switch to the gladium when engaging the enemy at short distance.
Oh, I didn't mean used in skirmishes. I meant used by skirmishers: Front of the line units which served the purpose of harassing enemies and disrupting formations.
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Oh, I didn't mean used in skirmishes. I meant used by skirmishers: Front of the line units which served the purpose of harassing enemies and disrupting formations.
oh I see... if I understood well this time you're referring to the Velites: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velites