PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Volki on November 06, 2013, 11:03:28 am
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Depletes too fast.
Seriously. In real life, I can spar in full protective gear for at least 30 minutes, even after strenuous exercise. Without gear, I could probably go two hours. Constant sparring, with only 20-second-maximum breaks.
In PS, I feel like a morbidly obese, asthmatic walrus.
Y'all need to work out.
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Depletes too fast.
Seriously. In real life, I can spar in full protective gear for at least 30 minutes, even after strenuous exercise. Without gear, I could probably go two hours. Constant sparring, with only 20-second-maximum breaks.
In PS, I feel like a morbidly obese, asthmatic walrus.
Y'all need to work out.
thank you for the feedback but seriously there is no way you can spar with real steel for 30 minutes not even without chainmail. I know because I've been practicing medieval skirmish with medieval-like equipment.
Even unharmed combat like box cannot last more than a few minutes, same can be said for every other fighting discipline when you actually fight for real.
That said the aim of the stamina rule is more oriented toward balancing the fight with different types of weapons/equipment and different protection gear (armor) than aiming for a real life simulation.
Maybe the rule isn't perfect but I think the above goal is something very needed.
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Depletes too fast.
Compared to what? On Earth? Who knows the gravity felt in the PS world. Oxygen density? You are comparing apples and oranges. Those kind of things are totally up for interpretation and the only interpretation that really matters, in this case, is that of the devs.
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Based on the weight I can carry all the time in my inventory, gravity must be pretty much non-existent! We should be able to leap over the city walls with little effort if we carried nothing. O--) O--) O--)
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Based on the weight I can carry all the time in my inventory, gravity must be pretty much non-existent! We should be able to leap over the city walls with little effort if we carried nothing. O--) O--) O--)
Ssshh! Don't give him any ideas, now! xD
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That used to be bound to the F key, keep pressing F and you could fly
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I totally agree with Volki. And it isnt fun to duel anymore with stamina depletes so quick...
So I guess it would be better to delete all fighting abilities in this game, since people that liked to duel hate the system now. And it doesnt make sense anymore, cause the most people only rp fights nowadays anyway, since it is the sense of this game. And fighting skills that are over 100 can be leveled up only so slow, that it isnt fun anymore...and since the stamina depletes so quick, it is even harder...
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(...)And it doesnt make sense anymore, cause the most people only rp fights nowadays anyway, since it is the sense of this game (...)
I am completly sure that when we do a PvP in this game it is also a "RP-fight" as we are completly ICly when we do so. RP-fight permit us to use "means" that aint implemented or not available by settings such as a particular spell or w/e. Thinking that PvP is OOC just because we are using "mechanic" of the game make no sense to me.
I also agree with Volki about the stamina. Not only about weapon combat but ALSO for mage whom mental stamina drop down way to fast.
Lumi is in her way of a complet mastership of the Azure Way, yet when she cast a basic Realm 3 spell her Mental Stamina drop terribly.
So even tho she is a master of the way and pretty well maxed the stat corresponding, she is unable to cast "easily" her magic ? This doesn't make sense. I agree to introduce "balance" but there is no "realism" in that either. "Realism"... what a bad word ! Realism toward WHAT anyways?
So or we decide that non KRAN are not natural to Yliakum magic and just struggle all their life long to use it, or we decide that those who reached Mastery, worked enough to deserve to use their "art" with ease.
If Blacksmith can achieve a 300q production and keep on doing 300q item then why a mage should drop to 50q in his efficiency at casting a spell? :'(
This work for warriors aswell.
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I notice the stamina drop too with dark way. at lv 130 with cha and most other stats maxed, I'll only get a few shots with animate shadows before my stamina is drained. I can work around this, so its not so bad. It basically means I need to attack, run, rest, rinse, lather, repeat. No more fighting like rockem sockem robots.
I'm curious as to whether this can increased the value of lighter armor?
When dueling, how does a player with maxed MA stand against one with maxed HA ?
It used to be that MA was useless and LA was only good as a first step.
Also, is there any advantage as using a character in HA as a tank, and those in MA to back him up?
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thank you for the feedback but seriously there is no way you can spar with real steel for 30 minutes not even without chainmail. I know because I've been practicing medieval skirmish with medieval-like equipment.
Even unharmed combat like box cannot last more than a few minutes, same can be said for every other fighting discipline when you actually fight for real.
I was talking about without armor. Full protective gear in martial arts (equivalent in PS being melee) is probably leather armor.
Also, boxing cannot last more than a few minutes? lolwut? Sure, in matches. That's not the extent of what boxers can do, though.
You have no idea the kind of endurance actual fighters have if you think one would tire out in a few minutes.
That said the aim of the stamina rule is more oriented toward balancing the fight with different types of weapons/equipment and different protection gear (armor) than aiming for a real life simulation.
Maybe the rule isn't perfect but I think the above goal is something very needed.
It is not needed. Find another way to balance. Just yesterday, I stripped my character of armor and had her attack a training dummy. She couldn't go for longer than a couple minutes. Her physical stats are either maximum or very close to maximum. Melee skill is at least 120. Attacking at normal.
I can't even imagine how bad duels are now.
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As a player, I have to say I am not a fan of the stamina system. I originally had high hopes for it, but once I saw it in practice, well... I used to enjoy leveling skills. I found it sort of relaxing. It's mostly been commitments outside of PS keeping me from the game, but due to stamina, the truth is that I have no intention of leveling again once I have the time.
My main issue is with mental stamina (though I don't like the physical stamina either). The problem is, as you level you cast spells more quickly. And the quicker you cast spells, the quicker you lose stamina, so that once you get into the high levels you have to pause so frequently that you are left thinking there was never any point in leveling at all. I don't feel it's realistic that a mage who has increased their skill to cast faster would need more breaks in the same amount of time as a result and I feel, in the very least, the stamina cost of spells should be reduced as you gain levels.
As Rigwyn has observed, r5 spells (like animate shadow) drain stamina very quickly. Lumi has observed this even at r3. (From my previous experiments, up to r2 seems tolerable and then it quickly gets ughy.)
I have nothing against stamina as a concept, but I currently feel the effects of it are much too intense. It interferes too much with enjoyment.
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As a dev, all I can say is that there is still discussion going on but no guarantee of changes. It'll probably get more attention after the next release, and hearing more people's opinions would definitely be helpful, be those opinions for or against the way stamina currently works.
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what is that stamina replenishing spell again? maybe it needs to be bumped up a bit... kind of need a masochistic streak to use it, though.
then again you don't really need anything stronger than energy arrow to kill things, sure some critters resist crystal but flying stones is good too.
What do you need realm 5 spells for anyway, killing Guile?
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IIRC stamina was introduced because there was no tradeoff for using different armor types. Having heavier armor drain stamina faster was a way to give people who use LA an edge since they are at such a disadvantage in terms of protection. It's the most realistic way of doing it. Maybe the formulas should be tweaked but the basic idea is sound.
I'm not sure why armor drains mental stamina though. Does it take more concentration to cast spells in chainmail than a robe?
For those of you complaining about having to take breaks during training: You guys know you can buy stamina restoring potions, right?
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Yes, for killing Guile! I had to use enchanted armor for protection against her spells as my mental stamina was draining too fast and she would kill me even though I was doing much more damage to her than she was to me. Maybe npc's need their stamina to drain like ours.
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IIRC stamina was introduced because there was no tradeoff for using different armor types. Having heavier armor drain stamina faster was a way to give people who use LA an edge since they are at such a disadvantage in terms of protection. It's the most realistic way of doing it. Maybe the formulas should be tweaked but the basic idea is sound.
I'm not sure why armor drains mental stamina though. Does it take more concentration to cast spells in chainmail than a robe?
For those of you complaining about having to take breaks during training: You guys know you can buy stamina restoring potions, right?
Potions are indeed one way of doing this. This is getting a little spoiler-ish.
On the spell casting side, things to look at include spell/realm, related stats and skill, distance, casting time, effectiveness... Its kind of hard to do a fair comparison without including all of these details.
We should ask not just, "Is it good for me, personally", but also, is the system as a whole fair for everyone. Is it balanced when dueling mage vs non-mage, is it effective when fighting player vs npc
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thank you for the feedback but seriously there is no way you can spar with real steel for 30 minutes not even without chainmail. I know because I've been practicing medieval skirmish with medieval-like equipment.
Even unharmed combat like box cannot last more than a few minutes, same can be said for every other fighting discipline when you actually fight for real.
All medieval battles with anyone carrying a sword lasted minutes? Wow. I guess the Knights Templar really over did it in the heavy armor, fighting in the deserts of Saudi Arabia. Their battles lasted hours.
Probably all died from exhaustion afterward, I'm sure. :lol:
Personally, I also think that the physical stamina is good in concept, but needs work in its execution. Nothing so ridiculous as taking every tiny aspect and putting it into the system; just have stamina be used up a lot slower at the base and exponentially faster with whatever armor you are unused to wearing. But always faster with heavy armor than light armor if you are equally skilled with them.
Mental stamina, I'm more on the fence with. If PVP wasn't a thing at all, I'd say to do the same thing to it that I would physical stamina. But powerful spells are supposed to be hard to pull off, if there would be any sense of realism in this.
If PVP was ever used extensively, high-rank mages could just spam the R5 spells and trash just about everything. The low rank spells should be the bread and butter of a mage, with the medium ones used more often the larger your rank (but never as much as the lower ones), with the bigger ones used against a particularly nasty foe or as a finisher.
So, yeah. That changes if PVP is not a large consideration. Who cares about NPCs' feelings; let the mages trash every known monster in existence all at once for all I care.
Just my opinion.
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IIRC stamina was introduced because there was no tradeoff for using different armor types. Having heavier armor drain stamina faster was a way to give people who use LA an edge since they are at such a disadvantage in terms of protection. It's the most realistic way of doing it. Maybe the formulas should be tweaked but the basic idea is sound.
I like the idea but the execution was horrible. My max armor skill is HA, but I usually wear a mix between LA and no armor. The fact that the people complaining are the ones the idea was supposed to help should be enough for the developers to change this.
what is that stamina replenishing spell again? maybe it needs to be bumped up a bit... kind of need a masochistic streak to use it, though.
then again you don't really need anything stronger than energy arrow to kill things, sure some critters resist crystal but flying stones is good too.
What do you need realm 5 spells for anyway, killing Guile?
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdum01IUqi1r57yezo1_500.gif)
thank you for the feedback but seriously there is no way you can spar with real steel for 30 minutes not even without chainmail. I know because I've been practicing medieval skirmish with medieval-like equipment.
Even unharmed combat like box cannot last more than a few minutes, same can be said for every other fighting discipline when you actually fight for real.
All medieval battles with anyone carrying a sword lasted minutes? Wow. I guess the Knights Templar really over did it in the heavy armor, fighting in the deserts of Saudi Arabia. Their battles lasted hours.
Probably all died from exhaustion afterward, I'm sure. :lol:
In reality, they would have fought for much longer than a few minutes. Possibly even 30 minutes. But they would take breaks. There were moments in which both sides had to pull back and rest up.
But seriously, the amount of stamina you gain from doing something almost every day for years is immense. I trained nearly every weekday for an hour, then went home and did further cardio and/or strength training. A few times I passed out playing PS because I had spent so much energy.
Also, Eonwind, I worked my butt off to get that kind of endurance. The fact that my near-max stat character can't surpass her player is pathetic.
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Mental stamina, I'm more on the fence with. If PVP wasn't a thing at all, I'd say to do the same thing to it that I would physical stamina. But powerful spells are supposed to be hard to pull off, if there would be any sense of realism in this.
If PVP was ever used extensively, high-rank mages could just spam the R5 spells and trash just about everything. The low rank spells should be the bread and butter of a mage, with the medium ones used more often the larger your rank (but never as much as the lower ones), with the bigger ones used against a particularly nasty foe or as a finisher.
We cannot work in general here as each way is different. Some are made to be efficient in attack and have an R5 attack spell, other focus on something else. I know that Devs are working on new spell but most of the way don't have a "low" level attack spell. And why should i kill beasts with my R1 new attack spell when i can use an R5 one (or even R4) ? Didn't my char spend hours to train her skills just as a blacksmith would do it or any other ?
I suppose that they added this Mental stamina thing because mages basically don't need to "moove" in combat, even it would do them no good. So to compensate the burden that user of MA or HA undergoes while running with their weapon, mages received a nice gift too.
The problem isn't in the effort of balancing combat, it's maybe in the way it is made.
Magic isn't built like weapon. A mage do now 10x less damage at w/e level then a weapon user. Especially since the introduction of enchanted armor. It is balanced with range some say... I don't know if the balance is really equal here but that's another topic.
Powerfull spell are hard to "pull off" yes but at some point the char worked so hard on its way that i guess he's supposed to have crossed those limits.
Since i don't see any advantages for someone to officialy Master a way (out of nice bracers), maybe the fact to be able to cast correctly his spells could be one ?
And potions have been thought about of course but their imput is ridiculous and is pretty the same as Rinse (a lil bit more), furthermore you need to carry in your pocket 4 stack of them which should drain a bit more your physical stamina in the process :sweatdrop:
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I was talking about without armor. Full protective gear in martial arts (equivalent in PS being melee) is probably leather armor.
NO! Not even close! Modern gear is far lighter or flexible or anyway causing less hindrance than any ancient protective device.
Also, boxing cannot last more than a few minutes? lolwut? Sure, in matches. That's not the extent of what boxers can do, though.
You have no idea the kind of endurance actual fighters have if you think one would tire out in a few minutes.
;D you have really no idea, if you think you can fight for longer than a few minutes, boxe rounds last about 3 minutes and then there 1 one minute rest. Fighting sports with no rounds and time to rest don't last more than 3-5 minutes.
All medieval battles with anyone carrying a sword lasted minutes? Wow. I guess the Knights Templar really over did it in the heavy armor, fighting in the deserts of Saudi Arabia. Their battles lasted hours.
Probably all died from exhaustion afterward, I'm sure. :lol:
You've just shown you've no idea about the difference of a battle (on a battlefield) and
a duel. While a duel can hardly last a few minutes a battle can last for hours, but don't even start thinking a knight swing his weapon non-stop for hours. That's not even close to reality.
However:
As a dev, all I can say is that there is still discussion going on but no guarantee of changes. It'll probably get more attention after the next release, and hearing more people's opinions would definitely be helpful, be those opinions for or against the way stamina currently works.
As Taya said the coming release is too close and there are way too many things to do. The stamina rules will be revised but they will require a lot more testing time by all the team than we have before the release.
However providing feedback with data like what weapon/realm one was using, the stance/KFactor, what armor type and how long it took before the stamina depleted will be much more helpful than saying things like that:
I totally agree with Volki. And it isnt fun to duel anymore with stamina depletes so quick...
So I guess it would be better to delete all fighting abilities in this game, since people that liked to duel hate the system now. And it doesnt make sense anymore, cause the most people only rp fights nowadays anyway, since it is the sense of this game. And fighting skills that are over 100 can be leveled up only so slow, that it isnt fun anymore...and since the stamina depletes so quick, it is even harder...
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I was talking about without armor. Full protective gear in martial arts (equivalent in PS being melee) is probably leather armor.
NO! Not even close! Modern gear is far lighter or flexible or anyway causing less hindrance than any ancient protective device.
It is close. It seems you have no idea what you are talking about. Full body protection, for example in WTF TKD (it is WTF, don't laugh), is extremely limiting. There is very little flexibility. You cannot even bend your torso. As I said before, I tire much faster using full gear than I do with only a simple uniform or gi (completely unarmored).
Also, boxing cannot last more than a few minutes? lolwut? Sure, in matches. That's not the extent of what boxers can do, though.
You have no idea the kind of endurance actual fighters have if you think one would tire out in a few minutes.
;D you have really no idea, if you think you can fight for longer than a few minutes, boxe rounds last about 3 minutes and then there 1 one minute rest. Fighting sports with no rounds and time to rest don't last more than 3-5 minutes.
I believe I already stated the issue with boxing matches, because I think your misconception stems from the length of the rounds. When they are not in an official match, those boxers will be practicing nonstop for much longer. I do not want to sound rude, but it's becoming obvious that you have never trained for anything. Re-enactments do not count. You are not required to reach peak physical and mental performance to participate in re-enactments. You are not competing.
And I find it amusing you say "you think you can fight for longer than a few minutes" when I previously stated I was a martial artist. Dunning-Kruger much? Every fighter trains to go for much longer than the time limits set in matches.
Royce Gracie vs Kazushi Sakuraba (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNd6-rQcyg0)
Most of this match was (slow) grappling. Non-martial artists tend to believe grappling is easy because they can not actually see the forces involved. It can be very tiring, whether your opponent is bigger or smaller.
Also, when striking, you usually attack within a hundred or so milliseconds after your last attack. There is no 1-to-how-many seconds delay. This is not properly represented in PS. By the tempo set in the game, one could fight for a long time.
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I think you're just pretending to know about fighting, as seems to have a lot of misconceptions. For what it's worth I've been training (and I still do) both with martial arts (and competitions as well) and medieval swordsplay with both sparring equipment and real steel.
Anyway all this discussion has very few to none importance for the topic because as I said the rules are not a simulation of reality but more a way to achieve a balance between armor/weapons/stances.
Where are the numbers I required?
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All medieval battles with anyone carrying a sword lasted minutes? Wow. I guess the Knights Templar really over did it in the heavy armor, fighting in the deserts of Saudi Arabia. Their battles lasted hours.
Probably all died from exhaustion afterward, I'm sure. :lol:
You've just shown you've no idea about the difference of a battle (on a battlefield) and
a duel. While a duel can hardly last a few minutes a battle can last for hours, but don't even start thinking a knight swing his weapon non-stop for hours. That's not even close to reality.
No, no. The battles lasted hours, so you cannot even begin to say that the sword fighting was only minutes long.
I know full well that you cannot swing a two-handed sword for hours, but I also know full well that such weapons were used for much longer than minutes. Why? Because even with breaks, as Volki pointed out, you would still need men constantly engaging. And it's silly to thing of a battlefield of a thousands of men swinging weapons at each other a dozen times before retreating to rest.
Why? Because battles lasted hours. And with how many men fought at once, you cannot say that they were exhausted in five minutes tops.
Mental stamina, I'm more on the fence with. If PVP wasn't a thing at all, I'd say to do the same thing to it that I would physical stamina. But powerful spells are supposed to be hard to pull off, if there would be any sense of realism in this.
If PVP was ever used extensively, high-rank mages could just spam the R5 spells and trash just about everything. The low rank spells should be the bread and butter of a mage, with the medium ones used more often the larger your rank (but never as much as the lower ones), with the bigger ones used against a particularly nasty foe or as a finisher.
We cannot work in general here as each way is different. Some are made to be efficient in attack and have an R5 attack spell, other focus on something else. I know that Devs are working on new spell but most of the way don't have a "low" level attack spell. And why should i kill beasts with my R1 new attack spell when i can use an R5 one (or even R4) ? Didn't my char spend hours to train her skills just as a blacksmith would do it or any other ?
You stated that we can't work in general because each way is different, yet you compared blacksmithing and magic?
I agree with the fact that each Way is different and would need to be treated different, but then don't start saying how you should be able to access all your magic because it works the same as a blacksmith.
Each Way would needed to be treated differently, as they should be. However, combat spells should, I believe, generally follow that rule.
And I already said it doesn't matter when it comes to NPCs. Go ahead and kill every monster ever, I don't care. But it would negatively affect PVP if mages could conjure up their most powerful spells on a whim, non-stop.
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Balance of game rules is always tricky... some people want more realism, others want fun with casual play, some want to see "progression" with higher stats, some want to keep things not too hard for new players. Either way, this is just a game, and several aspects of the rules have been much worse earlier. So thanks for your efforts, Eonwind and whoever else is helping out in the rule dpt.
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And I already said it doesn't matter when it comes to NPCs. Go ahead and kill every monster ever, I don't care. But it would negatively affect PVP if mages could conjure up their most powerful spells on a whim, non-stop.
Just wondering, what makes you say this? I don't know much about the higher levels of combat skills, but from what I've gathered, spells hit a damage cap relatively early on while melee damage continues to rise. Which means for higher levels melee gets a much higher DPS than even the most powerful R5 spells.
(I'm not sure if this is true, but it's what I've heard/read.)
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Lumi: I am completly sure that when we do a PvP in this game it is also a "RP-fight" as we are completly ICly when we do so. <- I agree with that. I really love the mechanics.
Just the way the system is now, gives the feeling that fighting PvP isn't a good thing. I really love duels PvP.
Eonwind: However providing feedback with data like what weapon/realm one was using, the stance/KFactor, what armor type and how long it took before the stamina depleted will be much more helpful than saying things like that:....
I tried duelling without armor with Cormah, Derator, Kaerli and someone else, dont remember whom else, but so yes after 30 seconds I think you need to rest. Maybe a bit earlier even. So it wasnt that big fun for us. And sorry about those words, but it is frustrating sometimes in Planeshift. I am glad I do enjoy RPing so much again, but I had times, when RL was rough I didnt wanted to rp and just plainly train, duel or level things, but if it is too hard I would quit playing, since I wanna relax in a game and dont wanna be frustrated playing it. But yeah on the other side its a testgame :beta: , so I guess I sometimes forget this.
So back to duelling. We tried several times to duel each other, but somehow it isnt fun anymore. So all stopped on that. I might try again and tell you the times when stamina depletes.
For those of you complaining about having to take breaks during training: You guys know you can buy stamina restoring potions, right?
Okay about that I had a discussion with a rper. I cant drink icly so many potions while fighting. Icly it doesnt make sense. But well you said during training of course. So some people say training is ooc. But for me I never used to seperate my training as ooc. Its IC and if someone comes I cant say I am not here actually. Since someone gave me to think about that the mechanics arent really realistic I think about training Sulaika and saying I am OOC. But actually I dont like that thought.
And since it is a fantasy world we should stop thinking always in our realistic world whats possible.
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Games will always have a limited realism. No matter how hard you (all) complain about it.
That's one reason why it is a game, by the way...
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@ Raxus : Oh you took my poor "mechanical" comparison of magic and blacksmith to the letter. I wasn't saying that magic is equal to blacksmith which would be totally silly indeed. I was talking of "mechanic". Mechanically, when a blacksmith start, he will hammer his ingots and loose physical stamina very fast. With the time he will work on his stats and his art and this problem will be nothing but a bad memory (Which is perfectly "balanced" since he worked hard on it).
Therefor if a mage (or a warrior), arrive at the same degree of mastership (stats and art), why would he/she keep on struggling to cast ?
About the pvp. Tests has been made, a mage still does 10x less damage then a warrior. He has the advantage of the range, not of the damage made.
@Eonwind : I wish you good luck in the hard work. I know you guys are working hard to make us all feel good and enjoy the game. And i can tell that what you did with crafting or mobs behaviour for example, is awesome ! More balance is a matter of time and work and i am fully conscient that you are working seriously on it. :thumbup:
Beside, there IS a problem, it's a fact. I don't think that denying it or just not saying anything would help you, Devs either.
>The problem concern mostly the training of our skills. We cannot train magic anymore with killing mobs for example, the stamina drop streching out the training time x2.
Rinse actually restore around 120 mental stamina, while a good herbal potion go up to around 160. Therefor when you reach a certain level in a way or weapon, those "boosts" are ridiculously low.
If you need number : i am off testing :)
@Sulaika : The Champion Cup is still going on ! And Boni is about to re-open YACE (pvp !). Yes the pvp is still possible and still so much fun :P I don't know what happened with your friendly duel but so far in pvp, i had no stamina problem seeing how fast paced it is. (Or maybe it's just the "cup" effect lol)
And i train IC aswell.
@LigH : Yep you are completly right ! That's why the word "realism" is flawed and that we better use "balance".
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If the mechanics of stats and skills were roleplayed, there would be no balance, and roleplay would be trash quality. Thus, we separate the two.
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And I already said it doesn't matter when it comes to NPCs. Go ahead and kill every monster ever, I don't care. But it would negatively affect PVP if mages could conjure up their most powerful spells on a whim, non-stop.
Just wondering, what makes you say this? I don't know much about the higher levels of combat skills, but from what I've gathered, spells hit a damage cap relatively early on while melee damage continues to rise. Which means for higher levels melee gets a much higher DPS than even the most powerful R5 spells.
(I'm not sure if this is true, but it's what I've heard/read.)
I say that for the same reason you said that; from what I've heard/read.
I was under the impression that magic was superior to melee in terms of Damage Per Second. Because that's what it's like in every game I've ever played and what it appeared to be like in my short time playing PS so far. I did not know that magic was actually inferior. By a lot, apparently.
Which explains Lumi's answer about PVP. It seems as if mages are not strong, but rather are very weak. This seems rather backwards, but that's a different issue.
@ Raxus : Oh you took my poor "mechanical" comparison of magic and blacksmith to the letter. I wasn't saying that magic is equal to blacksmith which would be totally silly indeed. I was talking of "mechanic". Mechanically, when a blacksmith start, he will hammer his ingots and loose physical stamina very fast. With the time he will work on his stats and his art and this problem will be nothing but a bad memory (Which is perfectly "balanced" since he worked hard on it).
Therefor if a mage (or a warrior), arrive at the same degree of mastership (stats and art), why would he/she keep on struggling to cast ?
I see. And I'll explain why:
From what I understood, magic is powerful stuff. Obviously not in PS like I thought, but lemme give you my reasoning before hand.
Magic was supposed to be damage. Lots of it. Mages had low health and strength and made up for it in damage. 'Glass cannons', basically. They could deal a bunch of damage, but could take little before being wiped out. That is why I was afraid for PVP; the mages didn't have to worry about warriors because the warriors would be toast before they even got close to the mages.
But to balance this, mages had to use mana quickly and get it back slow; PS does this (at least on the outset where I'm at), so I thought that magic was some powerful stuff that really took it out of the character to use. As you max rank your stats, your mana should be huge, but then the mage was still limited by the mental stamina; a balancing factor for a really damaging play style.
Against NPCs? No one cares. Against other players? A look to balance is in order.
Mages deal the damage while warriors take the damage. Usually in tough armor, they could take physical punishment for much longer than other fighting styles. Except they were susceptible to magic, because armor doesn't help against fire.
After you guys told me that mages are the weakest link, I figure I need to make a 180. If warriors out-match mages, then mages need those strong spells to keep up. R1 spells obviously won't cut it is warriors are 10x stronger than mages at max level, as not even R5 spells will at that point.
So, yeah. If mages aren't even powerful, then PVP has a completely different problem, in my eyes. But that's another topic for another time. I'm learning new things about PS every day.
More mental stamina souns just fine, with that straightened out; regardless of PVP or not.
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We should be able to leap over the city walls with little effort if we carried nothing. O--) O--) O--)
If it weren't for the kryponite heels. ;)
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@Raxuss. Ah I see. You're thinking of Squishy Wizards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SquishyWizard). Most "classical" and "class-based" RPGs penalize mages for using armor. Therefore the mage is easy to kill but hits hard (with "nuke" spells) while he/she is alive.
PlaneShift takes more of an Elder Scrolls approach. You can raise any combination of skills you want. Mage with plate armor, battle axe wielder with leather, etc. You don't need to conform to the classical "roles."
At low levels magic has the advantage, because weapon damage is very low starting out and NPCs dodge/block it easily, while spells do pretty much a set amount on every cast. Magic is great for hunting because you can kill things stronger than you easily just by staying out of the NPC's range.
In PvP, usually warriors have the advantage of extra armor protection and mages have the advantage of higher DPS. But since mages in PS can wear just as much armor as warriors, the DPS for mages is lower. Their main advantage in PvP is keeping their distance from warriors and whittling their health down from afar.
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At low levels magic has the advantage, because weapon damage is very low starting out and NPCs dodge/block it easily, while spells do pretty much a set amount on every cast. Magic is great for hunting because you can kill things stronger than you easily just by staying out of the NPC's range.
In PvP, usually warriors have the advantage of extra armor protection and mages have the advantage of higher DPS. But since mages in PS can wear just as much armor as warriors, the DPS for mages is lower. Their main advantage in PvP is keeping their distance from warriors and whittling their health down from afar.
Exactly. And warriors do stand a chance against mages, even we fear them.
@Eonwind : I am not completly sure that it was what you was looking for but here are some results of tests on Mental stamina, with a MAGE char :
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level 157 Azure Way (without boost) + Will = 400
Realm used = Realm 3 (psychic blow spell)
Stance = Full defensive
KFactor = 20 sec before beeing depleted (without Relaxing Sleep)
25 sec before beeing depleted (with Relaxing Sleep)
Armor type = MA (doesn't really matter here)
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level 100 Red Way (without boost) + Will = 400
Realm used = Realm 5 (Fist of the Volcano spell)
Stance = Full defensive
KFactor = 34 seconde before beeing depleted (without Relaxing Sleep)
39 seconde before beeing depleted (with Relaxing Sleep)
Armor type = MA
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level 51 Brown Way (without boost) + Intelligence = 200
Realm used = Realm 3 (Stone Fist spell)
Stance = Full defensive
KFactor = 45 seconde before beeing depleted (without Relaxing Sleep)
Armor type = MA
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I hope this help in any way :detective:
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Try the same things without armor to see if it changes.
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I think you're just pretending to know about fighting, as seems to have a lot of misconceptions. For what it's worth I've been training (and I still do) both with martial arts (and competitions as well) and medieval swordsplay with both sparring equipment and real steel.
Pretending to know about fighting? Wow, what is that, a YouTube comment? You have not offered any real information. You have only been repeating misconception after misconception. You have not bothered to discuss intelligently. I have never met a martial artist with such disrespect for another.
Where are the numbers I required?
As a developer, you should be getting those yourself. Players can be testers, but they are not your slaves.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aqRkxTjV1c
:)
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lol
That's so bad, Rigwyn.
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This is better :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTGh0EMmMC8
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Try the same things without armor to see if it changes.
I did tried with and without MA and it make no difference. I am not mooving nor swinging a weapon.
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I'm assuming y'all are switching stances as you go.
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@Lumi: thank you this is much helpful. Anyway the armors should make some difference but maybe in your case it's only noticeable when you casting with an higher KFactor (50-100%). Tanks again for the data.
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Ah ok! i wasn't really sure what a KFactor was in that case :-\ lol
All the tests has been made on 0%. i will try with 50 and 100%, with and without MA.
@Rigwyn : Nop i didn't switched stance. As a mage i always stay in Full defensive anyways. I might try with weapons after but i am at very low level in those.
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@Eonwind : I know that you are busy on something else right now Eonwind but i re-did the test with different KFactors. I used the same MAGE char and same spells as in the previous tests.
Note : All the tests without using Relaxing Sleep. (the difference is not that big with or without anyways).
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level 157 Azure Way (without boost) + Will = 400
Realm used = Realm 3 (psychic blow spell)
Stance = Full defensive
KFactor = 50%
MA on
16 sec before beeing depleted (without relaxing sleep)
Ma off
19 sec before beeing depleted (without rela
KFactor = 100%
MA on
13 sec before beeing depleted
MA off
15 sec before beeing depleted.
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level 100 Red Way (without boost) + Will = 400
Realm used = Realm 5 (Fist of the Volcano spell)
Stance = Full defensive
KFactor = 50 %
MA on
25 sec before beeing depleted
MA off
25 sec before beeing depleted
KFactor = 100%
MA on
15 sec before beeing depleted
MA off
15 sec before beeing depleted
-----------------------
level 51 Brown Way (without boost) + Intelligence = 200
Realm used = Realm 3 (Stone Fist spell)
Stance = Full defensive
KFactor = 50%
MA on
45 sec before beeing depleted
MA off
45 sec before beeing depleted
KFactor = 100%
MA on
24 sec before beeing depleted
MA off
24 sec before beeing depleted
----------------------
Azure is the only way for which i noticed a difference with & without armor on. Armor shouldn't matter for a mage as he/she isn't mooving at all.
Nonetheless i also noticed that the Mental Stamina restore a bit faster without MA on...
Test with a WARRIOR.
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Weapons = Light Maces (level 35)
Armor = Complet MA + Helmet (Horned Helm)
Stance :
Normal = 1min04 sec
Aggressive = 34 sec
Bloody = 20 sec
The same without armor
Normal = 1min04 sec
Aggressive = 34 sec
Bloody = 20 sec
See how weird are the results... No differences with or without armor. I wonder if i didn't made a mistake in my testing ? ???
Or is all the difference in the vitess of stamina restoration ?
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Sorry, Lumi, can't resist.
(http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/oprah-bees.gif)
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<3
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Lol Yes well busy bee i've ben ;D
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Ok, I have not read all the comments to this post so this may have already been posted. PS has a paced combat system in my honest opinion. Unlike the old medieval battles where fighters would swing blades only when they had a chance of hitting their enemy, characters in PS swing constantly causing their stamina to drain quickly. This can be avoided by repetitively stopping and starting combat. All-out fights may only last a few minutes as previously stated but you have to keep in mind PS is not set up for all out fights. It is much more of a stop and go kind of combat system. Medieval battles lasted for hours, this is due to some good strategy of the fighters. In order to maintain constant fighting the troops would have to cycle through positions not unlike a flock of birds. Some fight in the front taking on the worst of the fight while others rest in the back. I think this could be incorporated in some PS group fights if needed to allow people to carry on their combat but it may be difficult to find other players online that have similar training. To be honest, I think the stamina penalties for wearing certain gear are needed but they certainly need balancing.
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@Eonwind : I know that you are busy on something else right now Eonwind but i re-did the test with different KFactors. I used the same MAGE char and same spells as in the previous tests.
Note : All the tests without using Relaxing Sleep. (the difference is not that big with or without anyways).
------------------
[...]
@Lumi: thank you so much for showing off the numbers, now that the 0.6 release is out I will review the stamina rules and I hope to be able to fix it by the next update (which will probably be out for christmas).
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Reviving this thread to say that I was in a duel with Kisoji a couple minutes ago. I have 1850 maximum physical stamina. We wore full sets of heavy armor, he had axes, and I had platinum steel longswords. I started in bloody, as one is supposed to when dueling. I hit him twice and... ran out of stamina.
Two hits.
He didn't hit me.
He only managed to hit me when I could not attack. I tried to run, so he killed me with magic. (Thanks...)
So, I lost because I ran out of stamina.
Dueling is dead. Please fix it.
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I started in bloody, as one is supposed to when dueling.
Mhm, really? Stance, armor weight, weapon weight, buffs from consumables, all of this can change stamina usage quite a bit, so this needs some testing before we conclude dueling is dead. Maybe it works better if both of you agree to use no armor? (I know, cheap workaround, but do you remember the time when armor really made duels impossible?) Or maybe keeping a stack of food or herbal buffs active will fix this issue. We should try and see :)
PS: Unfair spells? Aye, but stamina wont help you to escape. Mages can lock you down at will, just like archers with good gear can one-hit-kill you from a distance. Play fair and have fun ;)
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I already included all of the factors that played into the duel. Me, I am maxed in swords and heavy armor. Kisoji is probably maxed in axes and heavy armor. My stats are at a high enough rank that I can kill a pack of maulbernauts without glancing at my screen. Kisoji might be at my level or higher.
We both wore heavy armor. I used platinum steel longswords. He used axes. Our weapons were likely both player-crafted. This is the typical equipment used by duelists. I don't see a point in using no armor. That would be both boring (a short bout) and extremely dangerous (RP-wise).
This is a complaint for the developers to see. I do not use temporary "fixes". I will just avoid dueling until stamina is no longer an issue.
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Duelers do not use crafted weapons anymore...
Looted ones combined with a good helm are a lot more efficient...
you may use more /stop attack when you're not in range to your opponent.
but I agree that its a bit physical stamina depletion is quite annoying but not as much as mental stamina depletion for Mages...
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Why are non-crafted weapons better?
I have never needed a helm because I usually do not get hit.
Why should I need to stop the attack? My character should not attempt to attack when the enemy is not within range. I do not know any games that use a system like that. It appeared to me that my stamina was going down most significantly when I hit Kisoji.
My mental stamina depletes much slower than physical stamina. This could be because I am not yet maxed (in mental stamina or a Way), although it would be illogical to lose stamina faster at a higher rank. Never know with this game anymore.
Maybe we should gather some duelists and do some tests.
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Why are non-crafted weapons better?
Crafted weapons are not yet enchantable. Looted weapons may have modifiers which give a remarkable boost to magic way skills which make spellcasted attacks more powerful, or to weapon skills or combat attributes (there are e.g. combinations of bows and helmets which give arrows a lot more damage).
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I know some characters can hit over 2000 hitpoint with a good combinaison Weapons & helm
I know Pvp is now a lot less used than it was in the past but If you want to pratice just join the Champion Cup (february 1st)... I don't remember seeing you in the pit...
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Crafted weapons are fine for duels because they make it easier to agree on "fair" conditions ... not every fighter can find a pair of weapons each with the rarity "one in ten millions". To be clear, I did not say stamina usage rules are perfect, you just seemed to combine the heaviest possible gear with the most demanding stance :flowers:
EDIT: Just tested some food, useful for recovering stamina both instantly and over time.
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For a longer event with more respectful combat rules than the Cup, try to convince Bonifarzia and Lumi to organize another YACE (click the left picture in Boni's signature). That may give you a chance to study the current game mechanics better.
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Well, Yace mostly worked because it widely ignored current mechanics ;D
To experiment with and test the mechanics, it takes exactly what Volki was complaining about: Players that just have fun with some spontaneous duel sessions. We should really have more of them!