PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Volki on December 22, 2013, 10:45:13 am
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This isn't in the wishlist because I'm not sure about it, and I'd like to hear others' opinions.
So, Talad doesn't like the idea of classes. He says they are constraining. I agree with that, but I think they could still be incorporated into the game. Right now, training skills is nebulous. You aren't sure which skills you should have for the character you want. You aren't sure which NPCs to train with. There are no official trainers (they are mostly guards?) and no official gyms/dojos/etc. to train in. For a society that places so much importance on combat, the neglect of organized martial arts is unbelievable.
I suggest that we do have classes. There should be schools for classes, similar to how players have to go through quests to achieve Way mastery, but more organized. Maybe with a physical school, even, where trainers can be found and players can practice (rank up) with other students and dummies. I think it would make training combat easier and reflect reality more closely.
The school could offer many different skills. And that's when you choose your future skillset (class). You could ask an NPC about the classes, and he/she would tell you their specialties, which you could then focus on to become a master in that class. It would be interesting if NPCs could detect the ratio of your skills (if they were high enough) and then address you by that title. Like "Good day, Nostromo the Battlemage!" (Sounds dorky, but people like being special.) Of course, you'd have to account for the differences between classes so you could correctly identify a character. A spellsword is not the same as a battlemage. An archer is not always a ranger. And it would be strange if you had a character with a Sword rank of 180 and an Axe level of 150, and although he consistently used both he was always determined to be a swordsman by NPCs. So I think it would be simpler to have a trainer NPC ask a player, "What is your specialty?" and the player could choose, then leave it as that until he wished to change it. All NPCs would then address the player as the chosen class (given the player was qualified).
Also, not all schools would have to be combat-oriented. Just as there are cooking schools, music schools, and even colleges in the real world. I couldn't believe Aleena was offering herbalism training when it was implemented. It's so out of character.
I know this seems complicated, but I think it would be great for immersion. And I think new players would appreciate it, as it would help guide their training. Personally, I think players who have mastered skills (at rank 200) should be able to offer apprenticeship to lower level players, but somehow I doubt the developers would like that. So I came up with something completely different.
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There was already an idea to balance "classes" by defining a maximum for a sum of stats or skills. But I don't remember the progress of that discussion... This attempt may be a technical base for your idea, I guess.
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LigH, that is irrelevant. This isn't about restricting players. It's about making training more interesting.
(No more posts about restricting skills. Discuss my idea, add to it, whatever. Talad obviously isn't into restricting, so there's no point arguing about it.)
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I don't know if a conversation about classes is possible without talking about ability restrictions though. Even if the talk is about how to avoid them.
I have always liked the idea of being able to offer some kind of training or apprenticeship to other players once you are high enough in a skill though (considering you are full master in a way at 150, I would think around 180 or 185 might be more appropriate - the final stages of official training then linking into the idea of the master demonstrating such an in depth understanding that they are able to pass on their skills to others.)
As for schools as such, I think for combat training the arena is meant to serve this role to an extent - there were already dummies last time I checked; however, the arena still isn't complete so probably doesn't reflect this as well as it should yet. I'd still like to see more interaction with NPCs that give the impression of actually 'learning' from them.
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I don't know if a conversation about classes is possible without talking about ability restrictions though. Even if the talk is about how to avoid them.
Can you explain how it might not be possible? Seems like most players want restrictions, but Talad says no... I am only using the word to mean profession, or what you are qualified to be. Since that is what a class really is.
As for schools as such, I think for combat training the arena is meant to serve this role to an extent
Then there should be trainers present. I wasn't speaking about a physical school exactly (except where explicitly stated). Not all schools are physical places. Maybe this is lost in translation. I mean that there should be an organized body of professional trainers who will provide lessons and potentially places to train.
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I think this is an excellent idea, both for immersion, increasing chances for roleplay and for giving newer players a sense of direction.
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I don't know if a conversation about classes is possible without talking about ability restrictions though. Even if the talk is about how to avoid them.
Can you explain how it might not be possible? Seems like most players want restrictions, but Talad says no... I am only using the word to mean profession, or what you are qualified to be. Since that is what a class really is.
In most games (and this is a game, no matter that it is for RP as well) 'class' is linked to the idea of a set of abilities. You admitted yourself that classes can be constraining, even if you don't think they 'have to' be. But I would say class is a different thing from an RPed profession, so if what you mean is a way to make professions make more sense and be more relevant, then sure, we shouldn't need to worry about restrictions, as it's entirely possible for someone to have a skill without it being their profession and having a profession doesn't mean you can't have other skills. It just might be better to call it profession instead since class can be read as purely a game mechanic thing that does tend to bring restrictions. (I hate restrictions via mechanics but fully support them in RP, because no one should be able to RP that they are maxed everything. It's just silly.)
As for schools as such, I think for combat training the arena is meant to serve this role to an extent
Then there should be trainers present. I wasn't speaking about a physical school exactly (except where explicitly stated). Not all schools are physical places. Maybe this is lost in translation. I mean that there should be an organized body of professional trainers who will provide lessons and potentially places to train.
Maybe something is lost in translation as you put it, but as far as I see, my point still stands, since I am not really talking about 'arena as physical place to go and bash things' but rather 'arena as focal point for settings relating to combat learning and development.'
It's still a case of working out exactly what is needed though.
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A class isn't a profession. There really isn't another word for it. I am saying that a class can be something a player can choose to be, not something that defines the player. You don't have to have a class if you don't want to. And having a class does not mean you are limited to the skills required by that class. In other games, players can be constrained by classes. Here, I think it could be used to guide players toward their goals.
You ask a trainer, "What should I learn so I can be a ___?" The trainer gives you a list of skills and might direct you to the NPC that trains those skills.
About the Arena... I don't understand why people think it is a place for training. Arenas are for sports. That's why there are seats for spectators looking into each pit. Those are for people to watch fights. Which is why it's strange that there is a pit specifically for training, with those three dummies. Has nobody questioned this? Maybe the beta-ness of this game frees it from common sense.
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So the gladiator slaves of ancient days trained somewhere other than the arena where they were penned? Sure there were houses that had their own training rings on their estates where they put on minor spectacles for the locals while deciding which to take to the big show. Do sports teams train in their facilities?
/me has plenty of class, all of it low!
;)
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So the gladiator slaves of ancient days trained somewhere other than the arena where they were penned?
As I remember it, keeping the arena clean was an issue. And if they were professional gladiators, they would train under an expert of some style/class (just like my idea, guys!). They would need to transport equipment for training many gladiators. So... Why would they train in an arena? How does that make sense?
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Just because some things aren't finished in game yet doesn't mean they won't get finished and doesn't mean they won't be explained. But let's go with what you say, and I suppose the arena sits there as some kind of petting zoo for creatures while in between tournaments? I mean, it's such a large space so it would make no sense for it not to be used. Maybe it could be rented out for dinner parties? I don't know. I like the petting zoo idea either way. Really. Arangmas are cute.
But since we're all apparently getting it all wrong, maybe give some specific examples of what you'd like to see?
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You talking to me? I think an arena should be an arena. Think I stated something about the beta-ness. So, it really doesn't matter right now, and it's not relevant to the topic.
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I feel that classes are necessary in this game because, as an example, it appears that many strive towards being a master of both combat and magic. I think this game would be much more immersive if we had set specializations of some sort, rather than being presented with the possibility of being a master of everything.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that a "class" is much like an association? If I want to become a badass swordsman, I would join the "Swordsman' Association" or "Swordsman's Class" and get direction from them on how to train and so on?
If this is the case, then we already have these. They are called guilds.
From an IC perspective, guilds are not supposed to be random groupings of friends or even worse - groups of players. They are supposed to be actual organizations that have an in-character purpose and need. An example would be a baker's guild, or crafter's guild. I think the Way of the Hammer and Explorers are probably two of the most relevant guilds in Planeshift at the moment.
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But Volki, they are not holding tornaments all that time and they need to ultilise the space somehow. You do realise that by settings there is quite limited space in the world? Therefore if there is no training taking place in the arena as you say there shouold not be, what does go on there? It is a real question and you're not answering.
The beta-ness as you term it is very relevant; it's the reason the game doesn't answer your questions yet. Why ask those questions if they are not relevant?
I was interested in hearing more, since there might have been something here that would influence work I am doing on the game, but given the rudeness and how you are still not providing actual examples of the type of change you would like for this, I'll give up on finding something helpful here for now.
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You know guilds are never going to be treated that way, Rigwyn. That will also heavily limit someone's social circle. And guild really isn't close to the definition of a class.
Taya, I don't see how I am being rude? I don't have an answer to your question because 1) it's off-topic, 2) I haven't thought about it much, and 3) the game is in beta, so I don't see why it's really an issue. You are arguing with yourself. Edit: I re-read the thread, and I just noticed that I missed some provocative statements from you. Keep the drama off my thread. Don't bother posting again unless you have something worthwhile.
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I really want to leave the thread, and I really was trying to get something constructive from your idea. You can read that however you wish, but here are some replies to your points.
You've not answered several questions. The one that matters is where I asked you for some kind of example of what you would want to see.
1 - No, it's not off topic. In your original post you talked about class, but nothing anyone replies with seems to be hitting the mark you have in mind. So asking for more information about what you mean is certainly on topic. You also talked about NPCs offering more information and schools players could somehow be part of to connect with this NPC interaction. You've said the arena doesn't make sense here, though you haven't explained why or what else it could be used for to justify it not having a role in such things. Asking about this is on topic, because if not the arena and NPCs that can be based there, where else will these NPCs be? (The ones relating to combat 'classes' anyway.) How would whatever you want work? Would it be a mechanics change? Settings? Simply a change in how people RP with each other? (Your reply to Rigwin maybe hints that you don't believe that will happen.)
2 - I would request that you do think about it. I wouldn't have been asking you questions if I wasn't interested in understanding what you do want to aim toward. I am trying to work on areas of the game which are quite likely to connect to some of this or at least touch upon it, so helping my understanding of what you are hoping for might lead to me working on things a slightly different way.
3 - I'm not saying the beta status of the game is 'an issue', just that it's the reason the answer to some of the questions you have asked isn't known yet. Or rather, isn't known in game yet.
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You were asking about the arena specifically. I don't have anything to say about it besides what I've already said. When the game does not sufficiently explain something, I look for the answers in the real world. Usually the answers I find are close enough. Which is why I wondered about the arena. People don't treat it like an arena. Right now it's used as almost purely training grounds, and you say that the settings relating to it are unfinished (due to alpha/beta). That is why I see the discussion of an arena's purpose as off topic.
Were you thinking that I was comparing the arena to a school?
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Let me see if I understand you correctly by comparing it to something I think is similar in my favorite single player game, TES3 Morrowind.
Nearly every NPC in the game had the dialogue option "my trade" where they would tell you their class, what they do, and what skills they use. For example, a knight would tell you they use long swords and axes, wear heavy armor, and train in speechcraft and armor repair. Also, every class would point you to one person who could tell you more about that class if you wanted to learn. That person would be able to tell you about all of the skills involved in that class - the different types of longswords in the game, how to perform armor repair, etc. Some would also tell you who could train you in the skills involved in the class.
Basically if I understand this idea right, it would be similar for the NPCs, and players would be able to pick a class or change their class if they want. And NPCs would address them by their name and class.
It seems like this could be incorporated into the already existing factions system in the game. Members of the food association could tell you where to get cooking/baking training, crafters could tell you where to train smithing or whatever...
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It seems like this could be incorporated into the already existing factions system in the game. Members of the food association could tell you where to get cooking/baking training, crafters could tell you where to train smithing or whatever...
IMO you hit the point, being part of a faction as they are conceived today is basically picking up a profession. This seems to be the closest thing the topic talk about since classes means a set of specialized features and limitations in every known game rule. But since one of the core features of planeshift is not imposing and hard limit on what you could possibly train then being part of a group or professional people is the only thing left possible to divide what a character (mostly) do in predetermined categories.
This concept is not yet fully developed by the questing system yet, but as far as I know it's being expanded and perhaps in the future the NPCs will be able to address your characters with the title he deserves (example: master chef, master smith, ...).
One last thing about the arena: the arena is conceived as both a training area AND an area for combat shows, and it's actually used for both, just think about the Champinship Cup http://www.planeshift.it/events/24/1386450000 (http://www.planeshift.it/events/24/1386450000)
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You were asking about the arena specifically. I don't have anything to say about it besides what I've already said. When the game does not sufficiently explain something, I look for the answers in the real world. Usually the answers I find are close enough. Which is why I wondered about the arena. People don't treat it like an arena. Right now it's used as almost purely training grounds, and you say that the settings relating to it are unfinished (due to alpha/beta). That is why I see the discussion of an arena's purpose as off topic.
Were you thinking that I was comparing the arena to a school?
I wasn't thinking so much about the arena itself as a school, but about it being a focal point for combat learning since it's where people interested in combat go to test themselves and where recognition of a combat class and whatever else we want to build up from the idea could occur. I don't see it as off topic because you are talking about trying to add a new element of interaction and areas of the game that are not yet finalised seem like they'd be the ideal areas to build that into (depending of course on the end result wanted).
I like tman's suggestion of tying it into factions, because they should matter more than they do right now, though I also think we need to be careful with them, but that's true of everything.
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Bluh double post due to cat attack.