PlaneShift
Development => Development Deliberation => Topic started by: Eonwind on March 18, 2014, 11:28:18 am
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Greetings!
For all of you interested in Rules and the new combat system under development I'm opening this thread both to keep you up to date with the latest development news and hear your opinion about things that will need to be addressed about combat.
First of all a few words about the new system: beside the current system which allows you to make a "standard" attack you'll be able to queue up to 5 "special attacks" or "special maneuvers" (as I favour to call them).
These special attacks will work in a similar fashion like spells, so upon relying on the powerful scripting interface we can have these attacks buff/debuff stun the attacker or the defender and finally play a graphical effect and sound like spells.
Each attack can have prerequisites like require a certain strength or agility, skills requirements, race, etc.
The results we would like to achieve with the new system are:
- create a realistic system with different styles to suit everyone need and taste
- make a realistic system (while still preserving gameplay) with the ability to make maneuvers and counter-maneuvers. (The system I have in mind may resemble the late medieval - early renaissance european swordplay styles).
- Attacks are not spells: we don't want the two systems to overlap (aka attacks will not be just a different form of spellcasting/magic)
- the system will encompass all type of (implemented) weapons and some style will be cross-weapon
- some basic special attack will be available to anyone (as long as they've the prerequisites) some other will be purchasable by trainers or by completing quests
You can find the latest informations on styles and special attacks in the wiki (http://planeshift.top-ix.it/pswiki/index.php?title=Combat_System).
One last very important thing I want to mention is the current system will force us to make substantial changes to the already existent system, including the standard attack. I will not go down into boring math details, our objective would be to keep the same damage output we have at the moment.
Suggestions, questions and comments are welcome :)
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I am just afraid that implementing new features means adding new bugs to old bugs, already neglected for years. I know people who are more interested in getting prepared balance attempts finally uploaded to the game database (e.g. fixing Platinum Steel blades with a value less than an Octa, or enabling bulk crafting), than looking forward to having combat even more complex and possibly beginner-frustrating (I already expect new characters being unable to kill a Diseased Rat without a double-boosted attack).
But well, there are different kinds of players. Some may be excited about these plans. And I may be more pessimistic than usual today. Sorry for that downer. :flowers:
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Thanks for the info, Eonwind. This looks interesting and will for sure have potential to make combat more entertaining. I am very curious how this will turn out.
I want to see the kikiri style manoeuvre, a quick sequence of vertical swings with a pair of blade weapons :lol:
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Perfect, guys! I'm happy that this is being looked at.
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I enjoyed the double-blade whirling attack in Gothic 3; the Bastard swords were the biggest supported by this style, but Katanas were the most stylish. When you mastered this style, even wild boars (usually the most dangerous opponent because they keep disrupting your attacks with quick shoves) were no more big issue.
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I am just afraid that implementing new features means adding new bugs to old bugs, already neglected for years. I know people who are more interested in getting prepared balance attempts finally uploaded to the game database (e.g. fixing Platinum Steel blades with a value less than an Octa, or enabling bulk crafting), than looking forward to having combat even more complex and possibly beginner-frustrating (I already expect new characters being unable to kill a Diseased Rat without a double-boosted attack).
Bugs (new and old) will be fixed like I always did, if an old bug hasn't been fixed yet there is probably an issue that make it difficult to fix, debug or close it. About PS longsword cost they've been fixed long ago and bulk crafting has been enabled for many crafting and will be enabled for more in the future.
About diseased rats ... is a new character able to kill it from the start now? ;D
We would like to keep the ordinary attack as much as equal to the existing one as possible.
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This sounds like a terrific improvement.
Three questions:
1. Will these special moves be predetermined, or will the player have an option to put together his or her own unique combinations?
2. Will there be synergy for using these combinations.
3. Assuming two players duel, will both players be able to initiate a sequence of moves at the same time? If so, then how much granularity will there be in determining hits and damage? ( ie. Does the entire sequence hit or miss, or can each step in the sequence potentially hit or miss )
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How do you line up your attacks so you do not run into the problem that is endemic to the short cut system where subsequent actions fail due to triggering before the first action completes?
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1. Will these special moves be predetermined, or will the player have an option to put together his or her own unique combinations?
Yes, it will be possible to queue up to five attacks at once.
2. Will there be synergy for using these combinations.
Yes that's something we want to, it may not be the easiest thing to do and it could be available for the highest attacks in the chain but it's technically possible.
One thing I want is having synergy options for groups (see the martial style, Wall of shields as an example).
3. Assuming two players duel, will both players be able to initiate a sequence of moves at the same time? If so, then how much granularity will there be in determining hits and damage? ( ie. Does the entire sequence hit or miss, or can each step in the sequence potentially hit or miss )
Each step (I take for step word you mean attack) will have his own chance to succeed or fail. The success chance won't be the same for every attack (e.g. some attacks maybe more accurate at the expense of damage or the opposite).
How do you line up your attacks so you do not run into the problem that is endemic to the short cut system where subsequent actions fail due to triggering before the first action completes?
You can queue up to 5 attacks. To queue attacks you can use the attacks window (can be opened in the next client with /attacklist), select the attack and hit the appropriate button (works just like the spellbook window) or you can drag your favorite attacks to the shortcut window and use it to queue the attacks. Once an attack is queued the attacks will be run in the queue order (FIFO = first in, first out).
The queue list will be shown, as of now, above the stance selection, below the HP and mana pool bars.
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I guess you must have changed the short cut execution code because the last time I tried making a short cut that did several non-instantaneous things it did not work.
for an example the result of:
/cast meteor
/cast meteor
/cast meteor
was one casting of meteor and two "can't cast while casting" error messages as the second and third casts did not wait for the first to finish.
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I guess you must have changed the short cut execution code because the last time I tried making a short cut that did several non-instantaneous things it did not work.
I think the chaining of manoeuvres is an intrinsic feature of the new combat system, just as today switching to an /attack stance induces a sequence of attack events with a given weapon delay.
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I guess you must have changed the short cut execution code because the last time I tried making a short cut that did several non-instantaneous things it did not work.
I think the chaining of manoeuvres is an intrinsic feature of the new combat system, just as today switching to an /attack stance induces a sequence of attack events with a given weapon delay.
exact. Spells actions are not placed in a queue but attacks have a proper queue, as of now unlike any other game action. The shortcut system hasn't changed.
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This is a good news, I can't wait to try it! \\o// \\o//
I'd love to see in barbarian style something similar to "berserk mode" :whistling:
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I am just afraid that implementing new features means adding new bugs to old bugs, already neglected for years. I know people who are more interested in getting prepared balance attempts finally uploaded to the game database (e.g. fixing Platinum Steel blades with a value less than an Octa, or enabling bulk crafting), than looking forward to having combat even more complex and possibly beginner-frustrating (I already expect new characters being unable to kill a Diseased Rat without a double-boosted attack).
But well, there are different kinds of players. Some may be excited about these plans. And I may be more pessimistic than usual today. Sorry for that downer. :flowers:
I agree fully to what LigH said!
.... Bugs (new and old) will be fixed like I always did, if an old bug hasn't been fixed yet there is probably an issue that make it difficult to fix, debug or close it. About PS longsword cost they've been fixed long ago ....
Hangatyr: "Hanquist what do you offer me for those Platinum Steel Longsword Blades of finest quality?"
Harnquist: "Well ..." He starts adding up the value of the ores, taking in account the time spend to craft them, multiplying the outcome with the average weight of an Ulbernaut and finaly taking the square root out of this nonsens "... uhmm yes after taking everthing into consideration I offer you 213 Tria!!" he replies with a broad smile.
Hangatyr: "Ahh yes 213 Tria you said? Just to make sure."
Hangatyr: "I also have some Platinum Steel Sabre Blades of finest quality too. How about those?"
Harnquist using the same formula, but this time he triples the weight and divides it by the amount of sparks emitted from his furnace during a second .. "Ahh that would be .. erm .. 61 Tria my friend, a quite nice offer I may add."
Hangatyr nods and mutters "Uhmm .. 61 Tria .. If I dig some coal, I get twice as much for a single ore."
So much for "it is fixed a long time ago"!
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Unfortunately, "fixed long time ago" may possibly mean "... on the testing server; just Talad refuses to upload this fix to the gaming server until there are other nits done". If this case were true, Eonwind is not the one to blame. Except for not stomping daily on Talad's toes... ;)
Disclaimer: That's just a more or less satirical example without any insight in the actual decisions of the development team. But the fact that many NPCs still "spook" across the plaza makes it look rather plausible.
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than looking forward to having combat even more complex and possibly beginner-frustrating (I already expect new characters being unable to kill a Diseased Rat without a double-boosted attack).
About diseased rats ... is a new character able to kill it from the start now? ;D
We would like to keep the ordinary attack as much as equal to the existing one as possible.
if you implement a new combat system I don't know if it's good to build it on top of the other or just revamp it completely, beginner frustration will be as big as nice-to-have features are low with all features that get implemented. That being said if you're going to revamp it revamp the whole thing to reduce bugs and build starter templates for attacks similar to the current system, and make a script that can translate the old attack x to the new one
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I've been hoping for such a system, however I do have one concern... there was talk about opening a window to click or drag abilities to the queue. This is highly infeasable to do while moving or fighting stronger enemies that require fast reaction. Is there a way to use shortcuts to add abilities to the queue? If not, can we get an "/addtoqueue <ability>" command?
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I've been hoping for such a system, however I do have one concern... there was talk about opening a window to click or drag abilities to the queue. This is highly infeasable to do while moving or fighting stronger enemies that require fast reaction. Is there a way to use shortcuts to add abilities to the queue? If not, can we get an "/addtoqueue <ability>" command?
of course there is, the attack list window works just like the spellbook window: you can drag the icon to your shortcut bar and even assign a key binding to it.
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Quote from: Glaciusor on May 23, 2014, 12:19:49 PM
I've been hoping for such a system, however I do have one concern... there was talk about opening a window to click or drag abilities to the queue. This is highly infeasable to do while moving or fighting stronger enemies that require fast reaction. Is there a way to use shortcuts to add abilities to the queue? If not, can we get an "/addtoqueue <ability>" command?
of course there is, the attack list window works just like the spellbook window: you can drag the icon to your shortcut bar and even assign a key binding to it.
I think what was meant:
Wouldn't it be more handy to have normal attack-shortcuts in the shortcuts-bar as we have now. And after pressing such a shortcut. It's added to the queue. This would make the fighting-system as flexible as possible.
Ok. I know people are wanting to add magic attacks in between the normal attacks if you use such a system. But that is another discussion you aren't going to avoid. :P
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I think what was meant:
Wouldn't it be more handy to have normal attack-shortcuts in the shortcuts-bar as we have now. And after pressing such a shortcut. It's added to the queue. This would make the fighting-system as flexible as possible.
Ok. I know people are wanting to add magic attacks in between the normal attacks if you use such a system. But that is another discussion you aren't going to avoid. :P
I think I've already unswered this question or maybe I don't get the question at all. Anyway I will enlist the way you can possibly use to add the attacks to the action queue:
1. open the attack window, choose the attack and click to queue, OR:
2. click on the appropriate icon on the shortcut bar (you need to have previously set the shortcut by dragging the attack icon in your shortcut bar - just like spells), OR:
3. push a key to queue the attack (you need to have previously set the shortcut and assign a key to it - just like spells).
The normal attack (default attack) is just like any other attack except it's the one used by default if you don't queue any other special attack.
You can queue any number and type of attacks, up to 5 attacks, in the queue, even from different styles: normal attack - side slash (sword) - shield bash (shield) - ...
Whenever you cast a spell the attack queue is interrupted just like it happens right now so you can: cast a spell, queue a couple of special attacks, cast another spell, etc.
I hope this clear the doubt.