PlaneShift

Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Prreta on June 16, 2014, 12:24:59 am

Title: PVP styles
Post by: Prreta on June 16, 2014, 12:24:59 am
Forgive me if this topic has already been massively overworked; I'm relatively new to PS and its style of RP and may have not seen prior discussions. If that's the case, mark this thread as 'read' and move on.

This may seem obvious to you. if so, mark this thred as 'read' and move on.

I've come to believe there are three very distinct levels of PVP play :
- Detailed : describe exact placement of body parts, angles of joints and orientation of extremities.
     - RL knowledge of fighting is critical.
     - Very good English skills are critical.
     - Can take a lot of time and good visualization.

- Light : generalized 'Comic book' styled fighting
     - Requires no RL knowledge of fighting.
     - Moderate English skills are quite sufficient.
     - Faster paced.

- Avoidant : dislike or completely unwilling to engage in physical conflict RP.

I am PVP-Light.
I would assert that by definition 'Role Play' allows us to be good (or bad) at something that in RL we are not. From this point of view Detailed-PVP is more like a text-based fight club than Role Play in that it would be almost impossible for a player with no fighting knowledge and a super-skilled character to defeat a player with knowledge but a low skill character. It is also a lot of work, that I simply don't enjoy. When my 'Light' descriptions do not seem to be as effective as a detailed description of the same move would be, I feel that the encounter is --let's call it frustrating. Furthermore I have no interest in spending my limited free time learning the details of something I don't really care about when I could be having fun in PS.

I *imagine* that from the PVP-Detailed point of view the player with RL knowledge would probably gag at having to swallow some of the cartoonish moves pulled by the PVP-Light player who has no RL knowledge. They would simply find it egregious.

Who's right?
PlaneShift seems to intend to support a wide range of styles, for example it accomodates FPS gamers, Levelers, Questers and pure RPers. From that perspective -although it sounds like a cop-out-  no one is right...or wrong.

What do I propose?
It's no sceret that there is a HUGE amount of friction between the three styles with 'god-modding' and 'hand-waving' being common (printable) terms brandished at each other. As a comunity we can do better. By having a simple level-setting OOC at the beginning of any conflict, and I do mean simple, we can provide more enjoyable RP for everyone :

player a : "I'm PVP-Light, you?"
player b : "PVP-Detailed"
player a : "Do you want to do Light, or avoid the conflict?"

Perhaps the avoidance approach is a little OOC but it's almost certain to be more enjoyable for both parties than a mismatched PVP.

I would assert one more thing : more enjoyable RP for everyone means that more people will hang around, so we'll ALL have more opportunities for RP. It's self supporting.

OK, I'm done. Let the inevitable flamage begin....

-P
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Rigwyn on June 16, 2014, 02:29:48 am

First one to flame!

(https://onelastline.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/flamethrower11.jpg)

Seriously though, you are absolutely right when it comes to identifying different playing styles whether this applies to mechanics-pvp, rp-pvp, rp, non-confrontational rp, story based rp, quest-ilke rp or whatever. It's kind of hard sometimes to mesh up with people who have very different ideas about what is enjoyable and what is not.

What to do about it?

Well, with such a small community, flexibility and adaptability do help, but the game experience needs to be fun otherwise all the bending and leaping through hoops is for nothing. Using the ooc tab to indicate your preferences might be one way to go... ?





Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Aramara Meibi on June 16, 2014, 04:36:36 am
no matter your preferred level of detail, the key to successfully rping a fight is to keep in mind that you can only dictate your characters actions, and not the result of those actions. a method of determining those results should be agreed upon by all parties involved.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Kaerli_Stronwylle on July 12, 2014, 08:04:16 am
My apologies for the mild necro here; I was going to post earlier, but the forums ate my post...so here's a few tips I have if you ever get puzzled by PvP-Detailed RP:

1) An old tip that Farren passed on to me when I was first learning RPed combat was to pantomime /act moves out if you are not sure how to visualize them.  Even sitting there and running through the arm/hand motions of an attack can help keep you from being tied in knots!
2) Another good rule (I came up with this one to make sure that I can come up with a sensible response to moves other folks write) is the STA rule: every attack attempt must provide a Side (left vs right, this avoids mirror image issues), the Type of attack (slash, punch, kick, thrust, stab, knee, elbow, headbutt, pommel strike, et cetera), and the Aimpoint the attack is intended to strike (say a stab at a kidney, or a punch at someone's head), as these are the minimum pieces needed to keep a PvP-Detailed RPer such as me from getting tangled into the veritable Twister game that some RP duels turn into.  Of course, you can always add more detail atop these basic facts!
3) Most PvP-Detailed RPers I've run into are more than happy to clarify a move, or to accept clarification if such a thing is needed, so don't be afraid to speak up if you are PvP-Light and need a bit of extra guidance on the details.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Prreta on July 16, 2014, 04:59:52 am
Good tips. I wonder if 'Side' could be generalized to 'Stance'...and applied to grappling, which is perhaps the most confusing possible pvp-detailed action ?
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Caraick on July 16, 2014, 08:29:23 pm
My turn to flame!
(http://atomicgator.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/flamethrower1.jpg)


My two cents? 95% of all successful RP fights are done using your RP "Light" style, Prreta.  The other 5% is done between two people who might really enjoy actually getting into the details of a fight, which makes for a fun scene if that's your thing, but it's not always practical.  That being said, Rigywn's point on flexibility is a good one. Especially with such a small community, where most folk know each other, or know 'of' each other.

But, really, it's all summed up right here:
no matter your preferred level of detail, the key to successfully rping a fight is to keep in mind that you can only dictate your characters actions, and not the result of those actions. a method of determining those results should be agreed upon by all parties involved.

You the man, Aramara.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Volki on July 17, 2014, 03:24:09 pm
"Light" fights make me want to puke. If you aren't going to consider learning about something in order to roleplay it, just don't do it at all...

Caraick, what do you consider a successful fight? And where did you find those statistics?
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Caraick on July 17, 2014, 09:43:31 pm
"Light" fights make me want to puke.

Perhaps I'm not clarifying my interpretation of the "Light" style.  What I mean by that is a writer's level of understanding about medieval/magic fighting.  And since none of us were wizards at one point, and most of us don't have experience in medieval combat, I tend to assume that's the majority of PS's playerbase's starting point.  What we have is a working knowledge of how to use the weaponry and magic in-game, and that's what we're going off of.

That doesn't mean we're giving a pose like "Leeroy hits Jane with an axe, aiming for her head."  That's unspecific, and is a very weak way of expressing what could be written much more detailed, even without having been an axe fighter yourself, IRL. 


But this:
If you aren't going to consider learning about something in order to roleplay it, just don't do it at all...

Is just ignorant. That's like saying I need to have an M.D. to play my healer, or an M.S. in Chemistry to play an alchemist.  Yes, I'm going to know the general idea of what a doctor does, and yes, I'm going to know the sort of techniques that they have in the PS setting, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be a medical dictionary. 

As to this:
 
Caraick, what do you consider a successful fight?

I'll just use Aramara's answer, since it hits it so well:
no matter your preferred level of detail, the key to successfully rping a fight is to keep in mind that you can only dictate your characters actions, and not the result of those actions.

Bottom line? Both people leave the scene having enjoyed themselves, whether it's a win or a loss.  This is a game. You're supposed to have fun.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Volki on July 18, 2014, 12:11:11 pm
Aramara's answer is irrelevant. It's a rule. Everyone follows it.

If you aren't going to consider learning about something in order to roleplay it, just don't do it at all...

Is just ignorant. That's like saying I need to have an M.D. to play my healer, or an M.S. in Chemistry to play an alchemist.  Yes, I'm going to know the general idea of what a doctor does, and yes, I'm going to know the sort of techniques that they have in the PS setting, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be a medical dictionary. 


It's not at all like saying any of those things. Writers do not write about things they know nothing about. They must research what they write or the reader won't enjoy it. Same goes for roleplaying. In all my time roleplaying, I have tried to study or at least use common sense so that I can fully or at least partially understand what my characters do.

If you're going to interact with other players you must be able to understand each other. That only works if you and other players have a similar understanding of how everything works. When you are not willing to learn a bit about real combat but get your character into fights, you are ruining the experience of other players who can see through your mistakes.

Say that I have another character pinned to the ground in a stable hold. I know there are only a few ways to escape the hold in reality. Consider that my character is meant to be an experienced fighter, and this other character has just begun training. The pinned character does something ridiculous like twirling his legs around and trying to kick my character off, like something out of a really bad ninja movie. In my head, I'm seeing someone on the floor flailing his feet around. My character doesn't budge because I assume that the pinned character doesn't know a thing about ground fighting. The pinned character's player then tells me to let his character go.

Why should I? If the other player initiated the combat, am I really obligated to just let his player go after he allowed me to pin his character? Why would he waste my time? Why would he throw himself into something like this and think he could simply opt out later on without repercussion?

Those are the thoughts I have when I encounter players who don't bother to learn a little about combat before starting a fight. In other communities, people avoid these types of players. A few years ago, I remember many players like these being ignored in this game. Somehow the view has shifted, to where ignorance is accepted and knowledge is deemed "not fun".

The reason we learn what we wish to roleplay is to avoid conflict. I've never seen two players who each understand combat enter an argument, but I have seen many, many light-style fighters enter into many arguments. It is very clear to me why this is, but it seems others have forgotten.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: MishkaL1138 on July 18, 2014, 06:00:42 pm
(http://frupic.frubar.net/shots/32000.png)

/me puts on her special typing gloves and wiggles her fingers
My turn!

I have roleplayed many, many fights. Surely, the first ones were dumb and I tried to wiggle my way out of it. But the latest ones were real fun, lemme tell ya. I don't think there's a "Light" or "Detailed" way to roleplay a fight, you just go in there, and play. I think classifying stuff into categories is silly (with due respect), and it all depends on the overall RP capacity of the players, and their mood.

I honestly think it's just a "hey you got the skills to PVP? / Nah but we can RP / Oh okay care to tell me more?" and then discuss advantages of both players.

Or maybe this was just an excuse to show my mad Photoshop skills.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Prreta on July 18, 2014, 06:26:36 pm
On the topic of PvP style :

I find that my own suggestion of an OOC level-set works, but leaves me feeling unsatisfied from an IC perspective as it feels like it breaks the flow.

The two extremes would be to simply allow yourself to be run over, or to become untouchable. While this second meets the minimum rule of determining the effects of a proposed action on your character, I don't expect it's what Aramara had in mind. Neither of these incorporates the flexibility Rigwyn mentions nor seems likely to result in a satisfying encounter for either party.

What IC mechanisms have you all used to graciously recognize the other player's desire to enter an RP while avoiding a mismatched PvP which may seem to be called for in the situation? And if an encounter cannot graciously be turned to a non-PvP, then what approaches have you used to graciously avoid the encounter?



On the topic of RLvRP knowledge :

As Caraick hinted, if RL knowledge is required then none of us should play magic, since there is no such thing in RL. No magic = no fantasy setting.

Furthermore I doubt newbies to RP such as myself arrive with a full set of knowledge about any relevant skills, so that suggestion would prevent the community from ever growing. I mean seriously, who wants to play a nobody for the years that it would take to gain such knowledge in RL? No newbies = stagnation and eventual extinction.



On PvP methods :

Kaerli, the more I think about your STA rule the moe sense it makes - even for purely pvp-light settings. Thanks for that. :D
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Lumi on July 18, 2014, 07:17:04 pm
Oh that's an hard topic !  :o

I don't RP-pvp since a very long time but actually, from my little experience i tend to agree 100% with Mishka.

1 - I am a current PS player, i know the races and their flaws/bonuses, the habits of the community. Therefor i have a character that fit in the lore (or tries to).
In that case i  just put my char in any situation and RP him/her accordingly to the way he behave, make it a casual talk in a smith area or a fight. A small chat with the opponent in the beginning, giving some info eventually ("OK no magic", "no armor". and so on).

2 - I am a complet new comer and then i don't know anything about PS, the community habits and even maybe nothing about how to RP. In that case i just ask around because i am clueless anyways.

In my opinion, it all depend of the personn you will RP with and that concern all type of RP.
Relying on REAL is not useless because YES in real if someone stab me i will suffer :D and try to slap his face! If i actually throw flying rock at you, you can IMAGINE what that could give (toward your char way to be ofc ! )
I don't think the point is there. Making RULES could work if they are very basical else it will be a mess to make everyone agree upon them.

I just think we shouldn't be so ""seriously detailed"" about the mechanism behind an RP... and just start it.
You arrive in a situation where you might come up to a good RP-pvp with someone ? Well just go for it and act like your char WOULD and that's about it ?
If someone godmodd you then just /tell and here we come maybe.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: bilbous on July 18, 2014, 07:50:42 pm
Role playing anything that has been implemented in the game mechanics is an insult to the developers who bestowed them to the community :P


Just kidding, sorta, kinda, not really, but nobody said you had to listen to me.
 
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: cdmoreland on July 18, 2014, 08:47:45 pm
Role playing anything that has been implemented in the game mechanics is an insult to the developers who bestowed them to the community :P


Just kidding, sorta, kinda, not really, but nobody said you had to listen to me.

I love the mechanics of the game and have only rp'ed a fight a couple of times and that was against an opponent I knew well, so he kicked my butt. ;D I'm a dwarf that is as strong as the strongest Ynnwn in half the package and hunt maulbers and Lavvar for the fun of it. If you want to rp a fight with me, fight an Onyx Dagger and know that I will kill you 4 times faster than he kills you. :-* But I hunt animals and not people.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Timil Deeps on July 18, 2014, 11:19:27 pm
Hmm, come to think of it, my chars haven't done a LOT of PVP combat compared to some player chars I know, but what PVP I have done has been almost entirely RP. I think my style varies between detailed and lite, depending on who I'm playing with, and how it best enhances the narrative of the RP story (realizing, of course, that my concept of 'best' is entirely subjective).

I agree with Caraick and Aramara and Rigwyn's posts above. I also agree with Volki inasmuch to say that it's good to gain more knowledge and bring it into RP when possible, because RL knowledge is useful to enhance RP, but *not* that it is a requirement.

In any case, I think Prreta made the strongest point by highlighting the word GRACE.

Whatever style or method of PVP is to be used, the participants ought to be graceful toward each other OOCly.

If someone godmods, then why not graciously and gently either (ooc) whisper to them, so that the action can be retconned or otherwise agreeably addressed, or just let the matter go and see where the RP goes from there?

Or if someone happens to be a newbie at descriptions, and doesn't RP much detail, why not graciously look on it as a teaching/learning opportunity? OR (for just this once) try graciously humoring them and then have an OOC discussion about it afterwords?

Anyhoo, I realize this is somewhat idealized, but I hope it is taken in the spirit which it was meant.

~Timil~
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: cdmoreland on July 19, 2014, 05:03:25 am
Waesed hits Timil in the back of the head with a plate-mail gauntlet. "Long time no see!"
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Caraick on July 19, 2014, 06:53:47 am

In any case, I think Prreta made the strongest point by highlighting the word GRACE.

Whatever style or method of PVP is to be used, the participants ought to be graceful toward each other OOCly.



 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: This  :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Volki on July 19, 2014, 03:18:55 pm
As Caraick hinted, if RL knowledge is required then none of us should play magic, since there is no such thing in RL. No magic = no fantasy setting.

I expected a response from Caraick, but it seems he can't come up with one. Magic is completely different from real skills that translate into the game. It requires suspension of disbelief. The only way to maintain that is to ensure that the use of magic obeys common sense and settings. If you roleplayed a world with no magic, you would not be able to use this excuse.

Please try to counter what I stated in my last post.

Furthermore I doubt newbies to RP such as myself arrive with a full set of knowledge about any relevant skills, so that suggestion would prevent the community from ever growing. I mean seriously, who wants to play a nobody for the years that it would take to gain such knowledge in RL? No newbies = stagnation and eventual extinction.

Newbies to roleplay are expected to learn about what they want to roleplay. It doesn't take as much time as you think it does. Every roleplay community I have ever been part of has expected me to gather knowledge on particular subjects if I was not already familiar with them. It should be the same here.

If you have no knowledge on something, it is a good idea to not attempt to roleplay it. Yes, you're pretending to be someone you're not, but you can't pretend to be something you don't know anything about. It's annoying for other players around you and causes misunderstandings.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: bilbous on July 19, 2014, 04:28:08 pm
So unless you actually put on some armor and go out to kill your friends you MUST NOT ROLE PLAY duels to the death. After all, theory is no substitute for experience. You can read all you want and it will not prepare you for the killing fields. Is that how it is?

/me wanders away tittering.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Volki on July 19, 2014, 06:39:25 pm
You're joking, right?
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: bilbous on July 19, 2014, 08:12:16 pm
I am just following, excessively, down the path you have laid down.
How do authors write the parts of characters of different gender when they can have no true knowledge of their realities.  How can a person born of wealth write of poverty, or a person of no means write of the wealthy? We all keep secrets from ourselves and others.

But, yes, I was not suggesting you should actually go out and kill people. I have a tendency towards hyperbole as should be plain to see by now.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Volki on July 19, 2014, 10:28:06 pm
Writers try to research what they're writing about... I even said that in my other post. And I said the same goes for roleplayers.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Kaerli_Stronwylle on July 20, 2014, 01:19:36 am
Hmm, come to think of it, my chars haven't done a LOT of PVP combat compared to some player chars I know, but what PVP I have done has been almost entirely RP. I think my style varies between detailed and lite, depending on who I'm playing with, and how it best enhances the narrative of the RP story (realizing, of course, that my concept of 'best' is entirely subjective).

I agree with Caraick and Aramara and Rigwyn's posts above. I also agree with Volki inasmuch to say that it's good to gain more knowledge and bring it into RP when possible, because RL knowledge is useful to enhance RP, but *not* that it is a requirement.

In any case, I think Prreta made the strongest point by highlighting the word GRACE.

Whatever style or method of PVP is to be used, the participants ought to be graceful toward each other OOCly.

If someone godmods, then why not graciously and gently either (ooc) whisper to them, so that the action can be retconned or otherwise agreeably addressed, or just let the matter go and see where the RP goes from there?

Or if someone happens to be a newbie at descriptions, and doesn't RP much detail, why not graciously look on it as a teaching/learning opportunity? OR (for just this once) try graciously humoring them and then have an OOC discussion about it afterwords?

Anyhoo, I realize this is somewhat idealized, but I hope it is taken in the spirit which it was meant.

~Timil~
Agreed.  OOCly, we all need to be far more graceful in resolving some of the difficulties (such as position/state mismatches) we come across as RPers.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: tman on July 20, 2014, 08:01:36 am
Just because player A knows more about fighting in real life than player B, that doesn't mean player A's character is a better fighter than player B's.

After all, when you throw in the different races and such, how much super detailed RL fighting knowledge actually translates to PlaneShift?  Sure, if you have two Ylian fighting you can imagine it like a real life fight, but what about kran, or kylros, or enkis?  Surely moves/grapples/holds that would work against real people would be totally ineffective against them and vice versa, since their bodies are shaped differently and move differently.

The point is, requiring players to have deep knowledge of RL fighting is unnecessary.  It's a game.  It's not a simulator.  All that should be required is common sense and the ability to envision actions in three dimensions.  On that note, the more specific you are about what your character is doing, the easier it will be for everyone to envision the same thing.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Volki on July 20, 2014, 11:18:40 am
Where are you getting the idea "deep knowledge"? I never said this.

Once again, just because something does not exist in reality doesn't mean you can't use common sense to guess how it would work out in roleplay.

I am not even into "super detailed" fighting. My fighting is as detailed as pretty much everyone else who plays on this game, possibly even less detailed.

The reason this thread exists is that there was a fight in game between Prreta and a few players in the tavern. She was trying to stab a woman. I logged on in the middle of it. My character came up behind Prreta, pulled her off the victim while holding her in a lock, and tried to subdue her. Prreta attempted to escape, but not in any way that would be successful, so I couldn't really let her go. Prreta didn't like that.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Caraick on July 21, 2014, 04:10:56 am
Prreta attempted to escape, but not in any way that would be successful, so I couldn't really let her go.

Seriously?  :thumbdown:
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: bilbous on July 21, 2014, 04:53:06 am
mantra for the day: not my concern, keep trap shut.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Rigwyn on July 21, 2014, 10:29:52 am
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/139/856/memes-pan-with-it.gif)

Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Prreta on July 21, 2014, 05:33:29 pm
In my mind this thread exists because I went back afterwards and reviewed the fight to find out what went wrong am am trying to learn from it. I had an objective third party review of the logs and the conclusion was that there were errors on both sides but I do not intend to drag this community through the mud of the details. I'd like this thread to be about learning how to handle situations that myself and other newbs like me might encounter in the future.

Application of Kaerli's STA method could have helped prevent our misunderstanding, so score one point for more detail.

Thank You everyone who has responded graciously, I hope we can continue with what I have found to be an enlightening discussion of useful general principles.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Prreta on July 22, 2014, 06:15:50 pm
If the community as a whole feels that I have acted in some way inappropriately by posting this - despite my efforts to detach it from the precipitating event and remain respectful of all points of view,  then I will be puzzled as to how one is to learn in PS but shall immediately request that the moderators remove this thread.


Please people do comment.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: bilbous on July 22, 2014, 06:20:26 pm
Don't worry about it. $.02
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Timil Deeps on July 22, 2014, 06:35:33 pm
Don't worry about it. $.02

Make that $.04, because I second that sentiment. Asking is often the best way to learn, if/when there are people around willing to answer kindly and in kind (which the majority of posters to this thread have done, methinks.)
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Rigwyn on July 22, 2014, 10:43:49 pm
*shrugs*  I don't think you did anything wrong. My comment was directed at volki's comment. I think one of the hardest parts to rp is getting along with each other.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Kaerli_Stronwylle on July 23, 2014, 05:38:07 am
As one of the other RPers that was involved in the event that precipitated this thread, I'd like to add another suggestion, aimed specifically at grappling moves:

Instead of simply naming a grapple, hold, or jointlock, describe what it physically does to the other character that incapacitates them in some way.  For instance (borrowing Prreta for demonstration purposes), instead of "*Kaerli tries to throw Prreta into a chicken-wing lock now that she has a hold of her right wrist", it is better to say "*Kaerli tries to force Prreta's right arm to fold up beyond its normal limits, attempting to cause her wrist to hyper-flex as well in the process as her paw tucks in under her right armpit", as the latter actually explains why the maneuver is effective (the hyper-flexed elbow and wrist joints in the example) instead of leaving the character's player having to make an assumption about what the move does and how they can or can't get out of it.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Timil Deeps on July 23, 2014, 09:04:56 pm
I think another bit of advice I'd suggest is avoid jargon as much as possible in RP'd PVP, or else be willing to pause and explain (perhaps parenthetically) what unique terms mean.

For instance, I know a thing or two about fencing, so if i want to throw in bit of fencing terminology to add flavor to the RP, I should be ready and willing to explain what those terms mean, and what the implications of the move might be.

For example (assuming that the trainingdummy mentioned below is holding a mockup of a weapon):

/me aims his saber at the trainingdummy's torso in quadrant 6, and initiates a beat-coupe'-lunge.

Someone who has taken fencing should know that Timil aimed at the dummy's chest, near its shoulder, on whatever side the dummy was holding its weapon, and that Timil tapped the dummy's weapon with his sword, brought his sword quickly up and over the opposing blade, and then used his rear leg to propel himself forward order to strike the dummy's chest.  However, I'm guessing most people would struggle to understand what action was described by all that jargon i used.

The nice thing is that once a bit of jargon is explained to someone, you can use it with that person as shorthand in place of the lengthy, detailed description of the action.  (For the moment, I won't address the problems my example poses in terms of tempo/timing, right-of-way, and the fact that it is in fact a compound action that might require finding out how an opponent will react at each step of the process!)

So yes, it can be a dilemma: use jargon and risk having people not understand what you're describing, or invest in the time (and possible tedium) of deciding the level of detail you wish/need to use (I prefer sufficient rather than exhaustive), and then typing everything out...

But with patience and grace, the end result may not just be one Good RP, but future Great RPs!

Just my further $0.02 + tax & tip.

~Timil~
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Prreta on July 23, 2014, 09:24:43 pm
Now knowing the details of the sword attack I *might* be able to formulate a move against it. But with the grappling move Kaerli described,  I am at a bit of a loss.

How can someone new to these skills respond in any meaningful way that is satisfying to the pvp-detailed crowd? Assume the character knows more about such things than the player, from the perspective of accomplished claw-fighter and moderately skilled knife-fighter.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Timil Deeps on July 23, 2014, 10:25:03 pm
Here's an example of a principle that might be useful for PVP RP, among gracious parties:

When the developers of the videogame tie-in for the first (2002) Spider-Man movie were designing the mechanics of his web-swinging power, they ran into a conceptual problem: Some of spidey's airborne battles would likely take place above the skyline of the city, so what the heck would his swinging webs be sticking to?

The answer was: "The same thing we see them stick to most often in the comics: Nothing!"  Spidey usually just shoots a web up into the air and takes off, and we suspend disbelief and accept that it just works; We implicitly assume there's a taller building somewhere in the direction that he wants to swing, even when he does this from atop the highest buildings around (granted, sometimes he aims a bit lower, to help with realism). They get away with handwaving it because it's expedient to the story (and I think also because it falls within the Rule of Cool, but that's beside the point).

So, returning to PS-relevant examples, if a character ICly has sufficient skills as described above (knowledge/experience/instict of clawfighting and knife-fighting), then I think it's reasonable to suspend disbelief and assume she might have some idea of a move to make, even if her player does not necessarily know offhand what that might be.

I'll ask the reader: At that point, would it be reasonable for one to OOCly ask someone for an idea to try (probably not the opponent unless they're a very good sport), or just see if said opponent will meet one halfway with a bit of gracious handwaving, to keep things moving and OOCly amiable?

~Timil~

P.S.: A bonus thought for the day: "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care."
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Volki on July 24, 2014, 05:26:30 pm
@Timil, as far as I know Prreta's character has no fighting experience. If she was heavily scarred and wore armor, I might give her the benefit of the doubt. But she's a fenki who wears dresses and practices some magic.

@Prreta, I didn't name any "moves" because I knew you wouldn't recognize any of them.

In these logs, Sarras had her arms around your character's torso, her neck and her shoulder (wrapped around). And she was behind your character's back, which is the worst position for your character to be in. However, Sarras's hold on Prreta was not perfect. It could be broken. One of Prreta's arms was completely free and she still had her lower body to work with.

Quote
(23:06:28) Prreta struggles for a moment to regain her footing, then attempts to slip from Sarras grasp by dropping and rolling away.
(23:07:17) Sarras drops her weight and tries to sweep a foot under Prreta, opposite the direction of her roll, to knock her over.

I imagined that this would end with both of our characters on the ground. To me, your actions seemed rushed, as you assumed you would have been able to escape and thus added a second action to your post (the roll). I wasn't sure how I should react to this.

Quote
(23:09:32) Prreta runs into Sarras leg, then moves quickly to hit the dermorian in the baclk of the knee, attempting to knock her to a seat
(23:09:45) Prreta says: "Let go of me!" she growls

Maybe you thought your character had broken Sarras's hold. But then I don't see why she would have demanded to be let go. I'm not sure how you would hit the back of Sarras's knee when she was already behind you.

Quote
(23:11:13) Sarras's leg buckles, but her arms are already around the fenki's neck. She falls straight down and tries to shove her weight on top of Prreta to pin the wild woman.

Here I tried to reconcile between the actions. Since I thought Prreta should have fallen already, I let us both go down.

Quote
(23:11:15) Kaerli looks to Prreta gravely "Just what started this?"
(23:11:29) Kaerli then looks to Nabilia, then to Darryel
(23:11:55) Nabilia says: I mentioned something about Celroc and Alran and she flew off the handle again. This fenki's insane....
(23:12:27) Darryel coughs a lot, suffering from the overuse of magic, not giving a proper answer.
(23:12:47) Nabilia says: Hey, you alright, Darryel? Did she attack you?
(23:13:30) Kaerli growls "Great..." then looks to Darryel "You alright?"
(23:14:59) Darryel says "No... she didn't....*cough*.... I'm exhausted from my training and using magic again..."
(23:15:03) Prreta says: [sarras, I don't think you can have your hands around my neck, be blocking me from rolling away and at the same time be bringing your wieght down onto me unless I"m broken in have AND my moves had zero effect?]
(23:15:18) Prreta says: [broken in half]
(23:16:07) Sarras says: [one arm is around your neck, the other arm is around your shoulder. it's a grappling move.]
(23:16:51) Darryel says: [roll a di... wait wrong game :P]
(23:16:51) Prreta says: I understand that part just fine - it's the part after that where I dropped below your hold...that would have had to have zero effect
(23:16:59) Prreta says: [sorry, forgot []'s ]
(23:17:17) Prreta says: [I'm not sure how to respond to it because I can't reconcile all three of those things]
(23:18:06) Sarras says: [she followed you by dropping her center of mass... you didn't do anything to counter the lock so i assumed she still had control]
(23:19:18) Prreta says: [and you swept a foot under her to stop her rolling out of the hold without loosing your balance and...you know what, nvrmind.]
(23:19:29) Sarras says: [...martial arts bro]
(23:19:38) Prreta growls "If you don't let go of me right now I am going to bite your arm off!"
(23:19:48) Sarras says: [you don't lose your balance during a sweep... at least you shouldn't]
(23:20:09) Kaerli says: [I'm with Sarras on this one: you really shouldn't lose your balance on a leg sweep. Sarras' CM would have been over her stance for the entire time]
(23:20:39) Prreta says: [and my attempt to roll out of the lock?]
(23:20:53) Darryel says: [I don't know much about martial arts... sorry :P]
(23:21:05) Sarras straightens one leg, the other awkwardly trapped uner her body. "Go ahead," she grumbles, expecting someone else to intervene before her arm is eaten.
(23:21:11) Prreta says: [nevermind. go on. I've plenty of martial arts training mhyself but I'm not going to make this ridiculous situation worse]
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: bilbous on July 24, 2014, 07:26:40 pm
well now. it all sounds conflicting. "regain her footing" leverage her attacker upwards,  "dropping and rolling away" sounds like leaving her feet and driving her upper torso and/or her hips to the ground in an attempt to pivot on them ... the roll.

"drops her weight" seems logical to counter "regain her footing"  but the sudden dropping subsequent to the "regain her footing" would seem to cause "drops her weight" to over-compensate along with the twisting action of the roll, driving both to the ground leaving no opportunity for the foot sweep. Not necessarily though, but if the person being held is heavier and of equivalent strength then it would seem likely that a period of rolling would ensue during which the hold would be weakened but possibly not broken.

It is very hard to parse these actions on the fly so it is no wonder confusion is generated. There is also the very real possibility that how I have parsed them is incorrect. Certainly what each participant meant by their descriptions of their actions is subject to interpretation.



Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Prreta on July 24, 2014, 07:42:42 pm
Thank you for what seems a civil response Sarras, however I was hoping to spare the community from the details that they probably have no appetite for and which I think could have best been handled privately.

I was hoping to keep this thread one about general principles so that *IF* I do engage in future PvP roleplay, I am better prepared to handle it AND if necessary to gracefully disengage without resorting to being untouchable or being totally dominated.

I have admitted that I made errors. I think an objective viewing by a discerning reader will reveal that we could both have done better. There were also other messages --not included here-- in which I stated I had no problem with losing because Prreta isn't a grappler and i requested additional clarification to the moves. As the experienced pvp roleplayer you had the opportunity to teach..which I felt like was totally lost with the appeal to your own authority. After that point Sarras totally dominated Prreta because I got frustrated and gave up trying.

Several things from the above discussions come to my mind as possibly making the whole encounter better :
- we should have agreed OOC to the encounter taking place at all.
- we should have OOC established relative levels of skill of our characters and ourselves
- we should have used Kaerli's STA approach
- I should have not gotten flustered.

Oh, by the way - She yelled a lot because she's a vocal character and you were trying to restrain her. Also, Prreta's fangs and claws are capped, so I never expected she would be able to do any harm to you through your armour, or even if you had no armour...it was her posturing and me still trying to make the best IC experience possible despite my OOC confusion and frustration.

Now, Please, Do you have any constructive general principles to add?
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Volki on July 24, 2014, 08:19:02 pm
There were also other messages --not included here-- in which I stated I had no problem with losing because Prreta isn't a grappler

Quote
(23:23:23) [Tell] You tell Prreta: [sorry. i know rping grappling/wrestling and stuff is difficult, but sarras probably has years and years of training on prreta anyway. this is totes her thing.]
(23:24:36) [Tell] Prreta tells you: [I have no problem with it --even the losing, because Prreta is not a grappler-- if my moves aren't totaly ignored. that's what I have a problem with]

and i requested additional clarification to the moves.

I don't recall that.

As the experienced pvp roleplayer you had the opportunity to teach..

Every time I try to teach someone in this game I'm met with belligerence. So I don't try anymore.

which I felt like was totally lost with the appeal to your own authority.

What?

After that point Sarras totally dominated Prreta because I got frustrated and gave up trying.

Dominated? Prreta was being restrained. You can't stab at someone in a tavern and expect to get away with it when you're surrounded by experienced fighters.

Several things from the above discussions come to my mind as possibly making the whole encounter better :
- we should have agreed OOC to the encounter taking place at all.
- we should have OOC established relative levels of skill of our characters and ourselves
- we should have used Kaerli's STA approach
- I should have not gotten flustered.

I don't think agreements should be made in order to roleplay. When your character became violent, you agreed to participate with anyone who might intervene. I'm also not very fond of OOC discussions, unless the roleplay is of a more serious nature. It should be made obvious from a character's actions what he or she is capable of.

Also, Prreta's fangs and claws are capped, so I never expected she would be able to do any harm to you through your armour, or even if you had no armour...it was her posturing and me still trying to make the best IC experience possible despite my OOC confusion and frustration.

I did not know that her fangs were capped, and I don't know what that means. I did mention that Sarras was wearing vambraces.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Cairn on July 24, 2014, 11:49:21 pm
Random note, if you haven't gathered it from Bilbous' parsing:

Don't try and explain things through imprecise body motions. If you don't think the point will get across, try something like this:

Ex. 1: "Wulfar pivoted on his left hip, bringing his elbows up and toward's Mariana's nose."

Can also be explained much more easily as: "Wulfar turned to the left quickly, trying to break Mariana's nose with his elbows." Or, ""Wulfar turned to the left quickly, trying to hit Mariana's nose hard with his elbows put together."

Sure, it's not pretty and poetic, like you all like. Get over it. I can do poetic, but not many people appreciate it. Text walls are only good if you're with those who like to do them too.

While still imprecise, it leaves both players with no doubt as to the intent of the move. Let your intent be known - are you escaping, retaliating, trying to cause damage? Body movements are nothing without intent, especially in a game where it's already easy to get confused.

@Timil:

I am basically echoing you, I know. I am also simply adding on that instead of using Jargon, and instead of over-describing your moves, try and make them as simple and clear as possible, given the action. Thanks for your tremendous post, friend :)
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on July 25, 2014, 01:00:02 am
/me senses random and inexplicably violent vibes  ::|  ;D
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Timil Deeps on July 25, 2014, 02:26:07 am
{Respectful snippage follows:}

While still imprecise, it leaves both players with no doubt as to the intent of the move. Let your intent be known - are you escaping, retaliating, trying to cause damage? Body movements are nothing without intent, especially in a game where it's already easy to get confused.
{Respectful snip}
Instead of using Jargon, and instead of over-describing your moves, try and make them as simple and clear as possible, given the action.

Cairn, old friend, you are not merely echoing me... What you have in fact done is taken my q150 rambling and refined it into a finest q300 concept: Communicate your intentions

I forthwith propose that the "STA" model be upgraded to "STAwI": "Side*, Type**, Aim, with Intention"! \\o//
*(or Stance)     **(or Technique)

Thus, here might be an example of telling the simple STAwI of an action:

/me swings his left fist at Scirocco's jaw, hoping to stun the menki long enough to allow the ylian to escape.

By communicating the intention of an action, it provides helpful clues (or cues) for the other player(s) to go on. And if you DONT want to explicitly communicate a char's REAL intention, you can at least communicate what their intention might appear to be, such as:

/me strolls up to his old friend Wulfar and raises his left hand as if to pat the menki on the shoulder...

 
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Kaerli_Stronwylle on July 25, 2014, 04:30:50 am
@Timil, as far as I know Prreta's character has no fighting experience. If she was heavily scarred and wore armor, I might give her the benefit of the doubt. But she's a fenki who wears dresses and practices some magic.

That is an assumption you could have double-checked OOCly ahead of time; I generally prefer to do so myself, especially when dealing with a character who's a total unknown quantity.  (BTW: IME, Prreta has good instinct, but is still developing in terms of IC combat skill, based on Kaerli's interactions with her, which include a RPed sparring match.)  In a world dripping with magic, btw, I wouldn't say its safe to assume that simply because someone doesn't wear armor at all times or chooses not to bear scars, that they have never been through any sort of combat training.  Remember, also, that there is a very significant mental aspect to combat...and most offensively-minded mages need this mental training just as much as a weapon-swinger will.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Volki on July 25, 2014, 06:43:58 pm
I have observed her character and roleplayed with her many times. When I say "as far as I know", I don't mean that I'm not sure. The previous times our characters interacted, Prreta did not have much fighting experience. I don't think a few sparring sessions will help her much against a character who has been training many years.

But, no, I would not have bothered to check anyway, as I had just logged on in the middle of the struggle. I would check if we were about to spar or have a fight to the death, but that's not the case. My character was only trying to stop someone from getting hurt.
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Prreta on July 25, 2014, 09:33:38 pm
It seems there is one more item that can enhance the communications, implicit in Aramara's post but deserving to be made explicit : Interpretation of an action taken against you. This will serve to establish that you are envisioning the same thing. Taken together ISTAI seems like a pretty good guideline to follow in any PvP exchange, whether detailed or light.

I still think I'll go for a very light style but what a difference this guideline might make. Thanks to everyone who contributed insightful comments!

Now I just need to work on those gracious IC disengages...
Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Rigwyn on July 25, 2014, 10:37:30 pm
You know, it's always easier when you RP with someone who thinks similarly. I find that with some people, things just happen with ease while with other folks, every little bloody detail has to be explained and debated over ad nauseam.


Title: Re: PVP styles
Post by: Cairn on July 26, 2014, 12:16:36 am
/me senses random and inexplicably violent vibes  ::|  ;D

Just 'cuz I wuff you so much :( I miss my Mari....


/me as Wulfar raises his hand to return Timil's gesture, offering the man the highest of fives!