PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: bilbous on July 27, 2014, 03:25:24 pm
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In a world of gods and divination spells how can the Black Flame be secret? How can anyone have any secrets? Can the Black Flame prevent the other gods revealing his devices to their followers? Do the other gods not care enough about their followers to give them the information they need to fight off the threat? Are the gods all in cahoots or merely aspects of one personality fractured being.
What do you think is going on?
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I am very disappointed of you, bilbous.
"But how?" topic titles usually indicate a lack of intellectualism. This appears to be your rock bottom so far. ;) ;)
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What do you expect from a rock-head? Rock bottom has to be a good place indicating satiety, now?
BTW it is "in you" not "of you" :P
Is it the topic titles that so disappoints or the topic generally?
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No, the topic content is reasonable.
They must be masters of disguise, somehow. Magically...
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never let it be said I don't listen to criticism :)
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There are those that would expose them for what they are, but no one listens. "The Black Flame is just a fairy tale."
Good must prevail over evil or else we are all doomed!
I, Waesed, pledge my sword, my wealth, and even my very life to expose and defeat the Black Flame!
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I always figured the Black Flame operated so covertly that it's not really considered anything but a folk tale. It's sort of like you listening to a ghost story or watching some movie about possession. Odds are you don't believe in ghosts or demons yourself, so if someone walked up to you and claimed to "have had an encounter," how seriously would you take that?
That said, your point about magic can also be confronted with the Black Flame also being a supernatural entity. Maybe you can't actually scry for it? Maybe you cannot divine it? If it has any form of omniscience (and it could, it's a god-like creature after all,) then this wouldn't be all that far fetched.
I think the point is to create a more "lasting" antagonist. Judging from black flame players I've encountered, they tend to be more complicated than your average character, and frequently their nefarious actions, intentionally or no, are veiled as being something not attached to the Flame. Of course you have the random person that tries to pull some crazy ass bombing or something and write FROM THE BLACK FLAME in big bloody letters on the wall somewhere, but again, as per the first paragraph, odds are you'd think that person was a nutter.
I never played a black flame member, but I do know there's a hidden library somewhere in game with information about it. Who knows, maybe there's a reason lore-wise.
Just some thoughts.
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This is why divination and scrying are lame. Also, I'm pretty sure scrying isn't something that exists in PS.
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information gathering at a distance is definitely in the game as one specific quest makes use of it. It was kind of sketchy in effect but got the job done. There is also that one spell that supposedly gives you fore-knowledge of your opponents tactics. I'm not certain what exactly it does though. +s to hit maybe.
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Personally, I think this makes the most sense if you think of the gods as being powerful, but limited. Either they are not fully aware of what black flame is doing, or perhaps they see it as more of a minor infection - something that could be dealt with if it gets out of hand.
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Out of hand, like when the BF slaughtered the Nolthrir?
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http://www.planeshift.it/History <- Powerful, but limited.
information gathering at a distance is definitely in the game as one specific quest makes use of it. It was kind of sketchy in effect but got the job done.
Please tell us.
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I think you would have a stalemate if all gods were equally powerful, knowledgeable, capable and so on. The same thing happens when all players make themselves equally powerful and all knowing.
As for the out of hand part, if you look at the "history of magic" as an example, you see that Talad is not always paying attention to every little detail. There's this, "When Talad returned and saw what a mess the world became" bit in there. ( I don't remember the exact wording )
As for curative measures, who knows, maybe this is an enemy that is equally powerful, or perhaps the cost of exterminating it might mean wiping out the entire population in the process. There might not be a selective approach or like working with an infected hard drive, it might just be simpler to just reformat it and start over from scratch.
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@volki there is a certain person in the winch who gets a damaged letter from home (on another level) that alarms him and it is incumbent on the player to find someone that can give the recipient some peace of mind. I'll not say more about it, see for yourself.
At any rate I do not expect any firm answers from threads like this, I do like to hear other opinions as they help color my understanding.
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I always figured the Black Flame operated so covertly that it's not really considered anything but a folk tale. It's sort of like you listening to a ghost story or watching some movie about possession. Odds are you don't believe in ghosts or demons yourself, so if someone walked up to you and claimed to "have had an encounter," how seriously would you take that?
^ this
That said, your point about magic can also be confronted with the Black Flame also being a supernatural entity. Maybe you can't actually scry for it? Maybe you cannot divine it?
^ and this.
While talking about gods, magic and their mysteries in PS, one should always account for a few things:
- mortal magic, albeit powerful cannot stand the gods magical power. This means that should the best magician face a gods his spells will probably not even affect the god in any way. (e.g. the most powerful lava fist won't even scratch a god).
- Gods are NOT simply powerful beings. Do not think of gods like ordinary character with incredibly high stats and skills. Being a god doesn't mean just being a powerful character.
- Even if god may have a "proxy" or an "avatar", which could be mortal in some way, harming or killing him doesn't mean necessarily harming or killing the god.
- given the points above: srying on gods is not possible, reading a god mind is not possible, even proving their own existence is not possible if they don't want to (and we can safely assume BF - if it exists at all :P - don't want to).
- about magic divination, while it is possible within certain limits, well some form of scrying are surely outside those limits.
Suggestion about magic: while released spells are surely not comprehensive of all possible magical feats they can at least give you an hint about the power level a magician can attain at a certain realm. Of course you're welcome to create your own spells in your RP or use the existing spells in a creative way but the existing spells can be considered a guideline.
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Duh.
I mean no one even knew about the secret deity "Kraft Macaroni & Cheese" until now....
ahh, crap. I let it slip. Goshdangit...
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Duh.
I mean no one even knew about the secret deity "Kraft Macaroni & Cheese" until now....
ahh, crap. I let it slip. Goshdangit...
Ha ha. No. This is not true. Do not worry about Cairn fellow human Planeshifters. He has gone away for awhile. There is no such thing as KRAFT LORD OF MAC THE NINTH LEVEL OF CHEESEDOM. Anyone who feels like discussing the fictional KRAFT LORD OF MAC THE NINTH LEVEL OF CHEESEDOM is encouraged to join us crazy people in the dark cellar beneath the abandoned church looming terribly over the crowded streets of Arkham Massachusetts. Let us go. Do not bring weapons.
I treat the Black Flame in the same way people view the idea of a vast alien conspiracy. I feel as though there are so many dead ends and crazies out there who would make the entire idea of looking to closely into the Black Flame so much of a social faux pas that it would give the investigator the nut job label. Anyone who did get to close to uncovering the truth would likely disappear under mysterious circumstances. Those who do learn too much might even be driven mad, and become Black Flame worshipers themselves.
I would compare our modern world, with its cameras and records everywhere, to a fantasy world with accessible scrying. Even with access to information, the real truth would be so mired in crack pot theories and twisted folk tales that getting anywhere near to the truth would prove to be nearly impossible. If we can assume that Black Flame worshipers are actively spreading misinformation as well, we can safely say that it would be very easy for an investigator to fall down a rabbit hole that is filled with entirely fictional information.
Even if some one where to successfully scry on the Black Flame itself, there is reason to believe that the Flame would have the ability to warp what the diviner was seeing, thus providing even more misinformation. The Black Flame would not think like any mortal. It would think in terms of centuries, and eons, not in seconds and minutes. It's plans are unfathomable, and even its worshipers do not fully understand what it wants. What makes the Black Flame so interesting is that there is so much mystery and deception going on. The gods themselves probably don't even understand it's motivations.
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Since I hate everything about scrying, I would like to know how it works in the game. I'm not going to go questing for the knowledge (I may have already done the quest and forgotten about it). What can and cannot be scried? What information can be gathered from scrying?
The one time I've ever seen it used in roleplay was when a character was missing and someone used his magic powers of scrying to find her. Normally we'd call that cheating but people were tired of searching.
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How odd, I used the pseudonym Chucky Cheese in my book of BF exploits, does that mean I really work for Krappy Dinner the omnivorous?
I think, Volki, that you can assume that it works poorly and gives results that must be properly interpreted. Likely, the god's will can cause further obscurity such that so other god's help will be required to give even standard, poor results.
Of course as far as player run role plays whatever is ultimately required to further the event is what will be done.
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I,Waesed, have some knowledge of the Black Flame and their god, the Whisper. I have uncovered some of their plots but never the ones directing them.
Though the Octarch may not be aware of it, the Black Flame controls the government!
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I think, Volki, that you can assume that it works poorly and gives results that must be properly interpreted. Likely, the god's will can cause further obscurity such that so other god's help will be required to give even standard, poor results.
Brilliant. And common sense.
For those of us who wield it.
Though the Octarch may not be aware of it, the Black Flame controls the government!
A good paranoia based conspiracy theory? I'm IN. On any side.
And everything that Zayla said. And everything Eonwind said PLUS everything he thought. >o) >o) >o)
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The whole point of the Black Flame is that it's the bogeyman. Any rational creature in Hydlaa regards them as a ficticious, entertaining bedtime story that's used to frighten children. If anyone claims to be Black Flame, they're not, see?
Though, as players, we certainly know it's out there. It could be your friendly city smith. Your tavern's barkeeper. Even your own wife. You'd never know.
And you never will.
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I,Waesed, have some knowledge of the Black Flame and their god, the Whisper. I have uncovered some of their plots but never the ones directing them.
Though the Octarch may not be aware of it, the Black Flame controls the government!
KRAFT MAC AND CHEESE
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STOP SPAMMING CAIRN
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Black Flame's been expounded on.
Multiple times.
I am very curious about scrying, however. Can I one-up the question of how it works in today's PlaneShift?
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A stop spamming cairn sounds like a good idea so that everyone who passes will know that someone disliked spam so much as to erect a cairn with the message "stop spamming."
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Sorry, saw this and had to laugh:
(http://kanatyler.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/img_6578.jpg)
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Duh.
I mean no one even knew about the secret deity "Kraft Macaroni & Cheese" until now....
ahh, crap. I let it slip. Goshdangit...
Ha ha. No. This is not true. Do not worry about Cairn fellow human Planeshifters. He has gone away for awhile. There is no such thing as KRAFT LORD OF MAC THE NINTH LEVEL OF CHEESEDOM. Anyone who feels like discussing the fictional KRAFT LORD OF MAC THE NINTH LEVEL OF CHEESEDOM is encouraged to join us crazy people in the dark cellar beneath the abandoned church looming terribly over the crowded streets of Arkham Massachusetts. Let us go. Do not bring weapons.
I treat the Black Flame in the same way people view the idea of a vast alien conspiracy. I feel as though there are so many dead ends and crazies out there who would make the entire idea of looking to closely into the Black Flame so much of a social faux pas that it would give the investigator the nut job label. Anyone who did get to close to uncovering the truth would likely disappear under mysterious circumstances. Those who do learn too much might even be driven mad, and become Black Flame worshipers themselves.
I would compare our modern world, with its cameras and records everywhere, to a fantasy world with accessible scrying. Even with access to information, the real truth would be so mired in crack pot theories and twisted folk tales that getting anywhere near to the truth would prove to be nearly impossible. If we can assume that Black Flame worshipers are actively spreading misinformation as well, we can safely say that it would be very easy for an investigator to fall down a rabbit hole that is filled with entirely fictional information.
Even if some one where to successfully scry on the Black Flame itself, there is reason to believe that the Flame would have the ability to warp what the diviner was seeing, thus providing even more misinformation. The Black Flame would not think like any mortal. It would think in terms of centuries, and eons, not in seconds and minutes. It's plans are unfathomable, and even its worshipers do not fully understand what it wants. What makes the Black Flame so interesting is that there is so much mystery and deception going on. The gods themselves probably don't even understand it's motivations.
There is a factor here you completely skip in your analogy, Zalya: namely, the accessibility and preservation of *evidence*. In PS RP (and I presume the lore as well, although I have not seen a good source on how the Octarchy investigates crimes), investigations are focused on accounts from witnesses, with physical evidence being a minor factor, at best (in most cases, it ranges from scant to nonexistent). As a result of this, most of our characters give little regard to evidence preservation (Evirea's the only *serious* exception I've seen, and even then, I suspect that there's only so much she can get out of physical evidence), as even if the evidence available was painstakingly preserved and documented by the characters who first discovered the scene, the RPers involved would likely find a way to make it so that whatever physical evidence found was insufficient to solve the crime.
IRL, though, just about any physical action leaves behind telltale clues of what happened for those who are attentive and knowledgeable enough to find them, to the point where physical evidence alone can catch a criminal or tell the story of a disaster. This, by itself, makes vast conspiracies far harder to sustain IRL, as they would have to cover their trails to an extreme degree. (A great example of RL evidence preservation is the reconstruction of TWA 800's forward fuselage, which stands as a permanent exhibit in the NTSB training center.)