PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: MishkaL1138 on August 18, 2014, 04:08:12 pm
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Is PlaneShift homophobic?
Since the marriage system was implemented, PlaneShift allowed for the marriage between characters, with only one limitation: it mustn't be between characters of the same gender. Let's look at the reasoning behind this limitation:
- PlaneShift is set in the Middle Age: In real life Middle Age, homosexuality was not only forbidden, but heavily punished. "Sodomites" would be impaled on stakes, or burnt at pyres, or presumed they were possessed by demons, and lesbians would be accused of dealing with the devil.
- The Octarchy doesn't allow for same sex marriage: Lord Iragdun Salikarios, as well as the rest of the Octarchs (presumedly), believe in the sanctity of marriage through the union of man and woman.
- A homosexual couple can't procreate: The incompatibility of same gender relationships won't allow for them to procreate, that is, produce offspring (despite Kran abbility of "gemming").
Is this the environment in which we want to play?
The current playerbase is smart enough to know there's something amiss in here. We have been roleplaying this kind of unions for many years. I, myself, have a gay character. His name is Kharrt, he's a Kore Enkidukai, and he was deeply in love with his boyfriend Dhury, even married him in front of Xiosia.
I don't think the gods look down on same gender couples, either. After all, Talad (the god, that is) still loves Laanx dearly. I'm not sure what kind of love is it, or if it was a bromance at first, or they were actual lovers. It's complicated. The point is, there's not a hard-headed faction in game that will discriminate against the lesbian/gay/bisexual collective, at least in the lore.
Now, let's see why the aforementioned reasonings can't work in PlaneShift:
- PlaneShift is set in the Middle Age: RL Middle Ages were controlled heavily by the Catholic Church. We're talking about a time when the rate of illiteracy was about the 90%. The only "smart" ones were the monks, priests, and the like. PlaneShift is not like that. There's not a religion like christianism was a thousand of years ago, and our characters aren't illiterate either. We're living in an illustrated setting, albeit medieval in the looks.
- The Octarchy doesn't allow for same sex marriage: This is a poor, cheap, hurried excuse for not wanting to implement same gender marriages mechanically. I have read the lore, and nowhere have I seen that homosexuals were prosecuted for their preferences.
- A homosexual couple can't procreate: This is convenient. Yliakum is a secluded space. A hollow stalactite, with limited resources and, all around, not big enough town for the two of us, cowboy. Homosexual couple not only are unable to have offspring, thus can't contribute to crowding the stalactite. But if it's about creating a family, they can have a healthy one by adoption, as healthy as a traditional one.
Please, don't turn PlaneShift into a Real Life lookalike. We play this game to have fun and do the things we're not able to do in real life. That's what roleplaying is for, and that's the attractive of this game.
Please, leave your vote.
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I think PS is bending the concept of sex anyway. Laanx, who had a sex change, Kran, who are genderless. Marriage between species (Is a Kran marrying some other race for love gay marriage? :D) With such a lenient concept of gender, I find it hard to believe gay marriage wouldn't be IC anyway.
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You forgot to allow an option for a kran to marry kraself. You can call me Mr. & Mrs. Bilbous from now on. Really the way you people go on with your adult themed melodramas completely mystifies me. You do understand, now, I am not referring to any specific gender orientation when I said you people. If you want more of that kind of thing in your life step away from your keyboard and go out and meet new people, you may need to lower your expectations if you are not having the success you think you deserve.
Why should there be any marriage functionality in Yliakum? You can role play it if you want and it just causes trouble for the gms to deal with when your spouse becomes inactive. I say don't accommodate, get rid of it altogether. Where is the option for that in your poll?
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I don't think Planeshift is homophobic, some people is.
About the reasoning behind the mechanics of marriage you cited. You did it all by yourself, or is it stated somewhere, or someone in dev department or elsewhere explicitly pointed out those reasons?
I'd vote on forget entirely marriage mechanics, for what is worth.
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You are forgetting that the most of the 13-18 yrs of age audience actually likes the marriage mechanism.
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I think PS is bending the concept of sex anyway. Laanx, who had a sex change, Kran, who are genderless. Marriage between species (Is a Kran marrying some other race for love gay marriage? :D) With such a lenient concept of gender, I find it hard to believe gay marriage wouldn't be IC anyway.
For Xiosia's love, Gurgus has the hots for Tyrus...
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- PlaneShift is set in the Middle Age: In real life Middle Age, homosexuality was not only forbidden, but heavily punished. "Sodomites" would be impaled on stakes, or burnt at pyres, or presumed they were possessed by demons, and lesbians would be accused of dealing with the devil.
blaming the church for not allowing homosexual marriage during medieval time is inaccurate at best. Even in ancient times were being homosexual or bisexual was fashion and common practice between the society high up, same sex marriage was never ever thought of.
- The Octarchy doesn't allow for same sex marriage: This is a poor, cheap, hurried excuse for not wanting to implement same gender marriages mechanically. I have read the lore, and nowhere have I seen that homosexuals were prosecuted for their preferences.
You've never read of any persecution of homosexuals because there has never been one, and something like that will never happen as well. The Octarchy would not approve any persecution, however it doesn't automatically mean that same sex marriage can be officially sanctioned. However my personal opinion is players are free to play whatever they want, including same sex marriage, until it's not exceeding the limit of decency (especially in public channels).
- A homosexual couple can't procreate: The incompatibility of same gender relationships won't allow for them to procreate, that is, produce offspring (despite Kran abbility of "gemming").
The nature has its limits and so that's why in ancient times, even when being homo or bisex was fashion, marriage was never ever socially approved.
In a world where less than 50% of children was able to reach adult age the society needed a form of family which was able to produce enough children to keep the birth-death rate count balanced, and also never forget the frequent plague and illness which were quite frequent and could easily decimate the population.
About adoption it was not a common practice and was only recurred at in extreme cases when there was the need of an offspring to avoid a family name extinction.
Also what about threesome rights? Yes why limit ourselves only to 2 core family members instead of 3 of mixed genders?
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The first thing first that comes to my mind is: the vast majority of RPers have ignored game mechanics when it suited them and now they care to see a little label reporting to whom they are married with?!?
Anyway, you should consider some things imho:
1) The Yliakum isn't ruled by a democracy, so if the rule is the Octarch doesn't allow gay marriages you have to accept it or break the rule at your own risk;
2) Since I imagine that to be married to someone there is the involvement of some burocracy and thus the Octarch, if the Octarch doesn't allow you to marry someone you are not officially registered as married-> thus you can't have that little label saying you are married with your beloved;
3) Since just the gay marriage isn't allowed you can continue to meet your beloved whenever you want: is that little label (OOCly) or an official acknowledgment (ICly) that really matters?!?
4) Sometime I think some people forget it: it's a game! :P
5) Bilbous stole some of my thoughts! :P
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Eonwind makes a lot of very valid points here. I'll address a couple things in particular, but I want to make my main point clear here: We are not playing in a medieval fantasy setting. Our characters are. We are pulling on the puppet strings of someone in an entirely different reality, without any of the social constructs, morality, politics, or religions of our own reality. We can liken elements of Planeshift's setting to our own Middle Ages, but it is merely a comparison. You cannot draw direct analogies to something that is fictitious.
Prefacing with that, let me get into the specifics.
- A homosexual couple can't procreate: The incompatibility of same gender relationships won't allow for them to procreate, that is, produce offspring (despite Kran abbility of "gemming").
The nature has its limits and so that's why in ancient times, even when being homo or bisex was fashion, marriage was never ever socially approved.
In a world where less than 50% of children was able to reach adult age the society needed a form of family which was able to produce enough children to keep the birth-death rate count balanced, and also never forget the frequent plague and illness which were quite frequent and could easily decimate the population.
About adoption it was not a common practice and was only recurred at in extreme cases when there was the need of an offspring to avoid a family name extinction.
Also what about threesome rights? Yes why limit ourselves only to 2 core family members instead of 3 of mixed genders?
Eonwind is exactly right. Homosexuality was forbidden across cultures during Earth's Middle Ages. I'll remind the reader about my first point about drawing comparisons to our own Middle Age, as it's an irrelevant comparison to begin with. However, that being said, the reason for homosexuality being forbidden was not merely a religious dictate by the Catholic Church, Islamic Law, and other main world religions at the time. The reason for governments and kingdoms banning homosexuality was a far more practical one: You can't produce offspring in a homosexual relationship. World population levels at the time were far lower, and at a constant threat of things like the plague, and a relationship that could not produce your family an heir and a successor was entirely useless.
- The Octarchy doesn't allow for same sex marriage: This is a poor, cheap, hurried excuse for not wanting to implement same gender marriages mechanically. I have read the lore, and nowhere have I seen that homosexuals were prosecuted for their preferences.
You've never read of any persecution of homosexuals because there has never been one, and something like that will never happen as well. The Octarchy would not approve any persecution, however it doesn't automatically mean that same sex marriage can be officially sanctioned. However my personal opinion is players are free to play whatever they want, including same sex marriage, until it's not exceeding the limit of decency (especially in public channels).
Eonwind is again correct on the matter of settings. The Octarchy will not recognize same-sex marriages, but that does not mean they're outlawed. If you, as the player, want to put your character in this situation, be my guest. Just be mindful of how this relationship would fit into Planeshift's setting.
People in this setting are not like people today. They are biased, prejudiced, and fundamentally different. They live under a very different moral and legal system. Now, if Planeshift's setting had been made so that, for example, the Klyran race had a strong dislike for the Kran race, it would be perfectly normal to see establishments in Amdeneir with "NO KRAN" signs outside. Now, the current setting explicitly does away with any form of racism, but were the game made like this, a Klyros and Kran who are best friends would draw some funny looks for the rest of the city's population, and they would not be wrong to do so.
That sort of blatant racial exclusion seems taboo to us today, but this was commonplace in a system like ancient Rome, where left-handed men were publicly and blatantly discriminated against. The same is true in some modern societies, even. So again, while the Octarchy's stance against homosexuality may seem taboo to us, in today's setting, be mindful that our characters are not playing in today's setting. That sort of bias is common, and normal. Those who think more liberally are eyebrowed at for being strange.
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In summation:
IC vs. OOC.
Don't pull your preferences into this game.
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:thumbup: to that.
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I have a few tiny things to point out... that's all.
The location of the marry function in the game makes no sense icly.
* If it represents a mutual decision between two characters, then it should not be limited by gender.
* If it represents a legal arrangement that was witnessed by the Octarchy, then it should not be on the right click menu of the character in question. It would be better in that case to attach that option to an NPC or to a quest.
Regardless of the real-life reason for disallowing such unions in-game, it would be good practice to have some written material to show how this decision came to be (or why it always way) ICly. Players should not need to come to the forums for this information.
If you wish to allow such unions in-game as an illegal union, then maybe make a pair of NPCs who are illegally wed.
If you wish to discourage such unions and relationships in-game for ooc/real life reasons, then that should be made clear to players.
Comparing PS to medieval Europe is kind of troublesome in a lot of ways. I know PS has been described this way since before I started here, but perhaps we might want to rethink this analogy as its often used as an excuse for justifying the existence and non-existence of things in PS.
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Comparing PS to medieval Europe is kind of troublesome in a lot of ways. I know PS has been described this way since before I started here, but perhaps we might want to rethink this analogy as its often used as an excuse for justifying the existence and non-existence of things in PS.
Wait...Are you saying there are dragons in PS? Because there were no dragons in medieval Europe, but if PS is not medieval Europe, there must be dragons (I'm kind of a champion of double negation.)
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The map says dragons exist. You can't argue with the map!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_be_dragons
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This:
The location of the marry function in the game makes no sense icly.
* If it represents a mutual decision between two characters, then it should not be limited by gender.
* If it represents a legal arrangement that was witnessed by the Octarchy, then it should not be on the right click menu of the character in question. It would be better in that case to attach that option to an NPC or to a quest.
If you can marry anyone of the opposite sex on a whim, you should be able to marry anyone. Even a kran. Because it's clearly not a legal matter if you can easily have on-the-spot hippie weddings.
Personally, I think marriage should be removed from the game. It adds nothing. The female's name might change to the male's, but I honestly don't get what the point of that is in the real world or in this game. Especially in this game. It's pointless. Just roleplay your marriage and be happy.
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Don't invent problems.
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I have a few tiny things to point out... that's all.
The location of the marry function in the game makes no sense icly.
* If it represents a mutual decision between two characters, then it should not be limited by gender.
* If it represents a legal arrangement that was witnessed by the Octarchy, then it should not be on the right click menu of the character in question. It would be better in that case to attach that option to an NPC or to a quest.
AFAIK in the future a few books describing the various races traditions and habits will be released and some wedding traditions will be described as well. However always remember this is a game and since none ruled where two characters have to celebrate their marriage it's far more convenient and simple for game mechanics to leave things as they are.
I have a few tiny things to point out... that's all.
The location of the marry function in the game makes no sense icly.
* If it represents a mutual decision between two characters, then it should not be limited by gender.
* If it represents a legal arrangement that was witnessed by the Octarchy, then it should not be on the right click menu of the character in question. It would be better in that case to attach that option to an NPC or to a quest.
Regardless of the real-life reason for disallowing such unions in-game, it would be good practice to have some written material to show how this decision came to be (or why it always way) ICly. Players should not need to come to the forums for this information.
If you wish to allow such unions in-game as an illegal union, then maybe make a pair of NPCs who are illegally wed.
Like I said above about wedding traditions. Settings details and PS culture is always being expanded and deepened if someone really cares or is bothered why the Octarch law is like that (ICly of course) may try to write something and submit to settings department. If they deem it's good enough (always from a settings and IC point of view) it may be officially released.
Aside that I don't really see a point in creating a specific quest just to outline why it's illegal a same sex marriage, just because I think the argument is not really the focus of PS mood. I would rather see more racial quests like the ones written by Taya to better describe each single race culture.
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Don't invent problems.
I lol'd.
When I played, I naturally assumed that homosexual relationships were publicly frowned upon ICly, generally not taken seriously or maybe even discriminated against. I thought it would be interesting to RP this and to have to defend my character's love against people's judgment.
Sadly, none of that ever happened. Everyone seemed to be perfectly fine with it. Turned out that most of my character's friends were homosexual. That really weirded me out and I didn't know how to deal with it. Yes, I didn't know how to deal with something being socially accepted that I didn't think would be.
When I played a different character later, and she learned about another character's homosexuality, she reacted like I'd previously expected most people to react - she was put off, confused about how to deal with it and why the other character would openly speak about it, and didn't know how to feel about it.
Don't pretend like everything that is harmless and just one person's inherent preference is perfectly accepted in every of today's societies. My country allows for homosexual registered partnerships - even if it's not the same as a marriage - but there's so many other things that aren't socially accepted.
I think it's interesting to RP something that ISN'T standard and excepted, that is unfairly against the rules, that other people will judge and discriminate against blindly. I think banning racism from the game is a real shame - it might seem necessary because of relation to IRL standards / events, but it would be so interesting (and so much more realistic, at least if the races are any similar to humans) to have.
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If you are going to let a cat and a flying lizard, and demons, and dwarves intermingle who really cares? My character doesn't even have a gender and people of his species have married. I mean, what's with that?
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I think it's interesting to RP something that ISN'T standard and excepted, that is unfairly against the rules, that other people will judge and discriminate against blindly. I think banning racism from the game is a real shame - it might seem necessary because of relation to IRL standards / events, but it would be so interesting (and so much more realistic, at least if the races are any similar to humans) to have.
+1 to contradicting the norms and riding the turbulent storm of emotional reactions that follow. :) But when reason sets in and the waves settle, so too does the fun. For me, at least.
For me, this does not seem to work out in role play. I find its much easier to just write a single author story with intended reactions and consequences than to see such things play out desirably in multi-player RP.
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To the attention of everyone reading and commenting on this thread:
I have to apologize for the way I started this thread. It surely was unbecoming of me, and the words I used totally uncalled for. At no moment did I want to call the developers homophobic or bigoted, and the players' response has been bigger than I expected at first. It has taught me a lot about how many people think.
This game is not limited to a single region, let alone to a single country or continent. It spans all over the world. This topic sure is itchy to some, if not most, and country laws and regulations are so different from one country to another, and even inside a country, from one region to another.
I do understand same-gender relationships in this game are not the norm. But neither are the conventional kind of unions we see in real life either. A Kran can love a Klyros, a Klyros can love an Enkidukai, an Enkidukai can love a Stonehammer, and so on. They can be friends, best friends, lovers. They can marry in front of a god, they can marry in secret. They will get their named changed, or they won't.
We have seen many marriages in game. In the four years I've played, my main character has married up to three times (or maybe four), even. An alt of mine has married too, and has lost her husband, and doesn't know where is he, or whether he's dead or not. Another alt of mine got married to his mate, both males, and he too has lost. You can ask him his story if you hear him sing at the Den. Another character of mine loved the ground kra stepped on, and passed away peacefully to become one with it.
I recognize being outraged and posting this thread out of spite, but I realize how wrong I was, and now I ask everyone who may have felt offended to forgive me, and thank all those who commented and made their point across.
I must also ask you not to post again in this thread. It'll be here if anyone ever stumbles upon it, but now that we know how we all feel, I think it's better to put it to rest, and come back whenever we have a disagreement of this kind.
~Mishka
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I must also ask you not to post again in this thread.
Posted!
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I keep spilling cold water on my pajamas.
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I must also ask you not to post again in this thread.
again
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I am a banana. :offtopic:
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Interestingly, the subject, and even more the reaction of people, the question is not so much change the rules of the game, it's like playing each as developing its role as trying to have fun creating situations with their characters, do not think anything whether good or bad, is the story that we are developing, which is medieval setting, does not mean you have to compare with anything but as is the creation of your medieval for you setting, the tools we are creating a character and that this is developing and evolving according to the circumstances that others are considering it.
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Outlaw marriage! One big orgy under the Dome!
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Krans make nice couples.
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PS is not set "in Medieval Times" but fantasy-themed with some vague "antique" flavor. In "Medieval Times" there were no octarchs, arenas, polytheism or ulbernauts, let alone krans or enkidukai or a massive underground world. Also in many societies some forms of homosexual marriage were allowed in ancient times, although were usually restricted to transgender males who were treated (more or less) as females (female homosexuality has almost always been "invisible").
Anyhow if Yliakum can be democratic polity in which the officers are (theoretically) elected and where women can be soldiers and vigesimi, I see absolutely no reason to exert discrimination on the issue of same-sex marriage, which nowadays is pretty much standard, just as female emancipation or racial equality is.
As for having children: children and pregnancy are utterly absent in the world of Yliakum, so whatever. The only consideration should be love.
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If you really want to marry a player in a way that is not enabled, then craft your own ritual and adopt your own form of marking. Identify married couples by something in their character description like a piece of jewellery or a tattoo, not by the OOC name floating over their heads. Personally, I would go for branding with a hot iron and the imposition of a steel collar and chain, but that may or may not fit into your concept of marriage. It does however, work well with the dead and with puppets and mannequins ( eyes and mouths sewed shut with black thread so they can hear and smell, but can't see or tell. <3 )
Seriously though, pushing for a game option to marry to the same gender has been debated and shot down in the past. It's kind of a waste of time to pursue this.
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PS is not set "in Medieval Times" but fantasy-themed with some vague "antique" flavor. In "Medieval Times" there were no octarchs, arenas, polytheism or ulbernauts, let alone krans or enkidukai or a massive underground world. Also in many societies some forms of homosexual marriage were allowed in ancient times, although were usually restricted to transgender males who were treated (more or less) as females (female homosexuality has almost always been "invisible").
That's inaccurate at best. Homosexual marriage was never allowed in ancient times for reasons explained above. Transgender males were extremely rare, an it was a practice restricted only to a few ancient cults like Cibele's where the ritual emasculation transformed the subject in a priestess of the goddess.
Anyhow if Yliakum can be democratic polity in which the officers are (theoretically) elected and where women can be soldiers and vigesimi, I see absolutely no reason to exert discrimination on the issue of same-sex marriage, which nowadays is pretty much standard, just as female emancipation or racial equality is.
Yliakum is not a democracy and the Octarch are not elected.
As for having children: children and pregnancy are utterly absent in the world of Yliakum, so whatever. The only consideration should be love.
Inaccurate. Children and pregnancy are not absent, in fact are an aspect of the society which has been roleplayed many times and can be considered an integral part of the settings.
This thread should be closed.
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Haha Rig, so glad to see you still stirring the pot with your wit and chains, [Lhaa says hi o/]
Siteya and the DOX have been performing same sex ceremonies [and will continue to do so, if approached] and no wrath has befallen them by their beloved Goddess. I also agree with Caraick, the middle ages is a far throw from what we have in the other wordly fantasy of PS. I am quite sure from my history lessons that in medieval times women did not walk around the cities half naked.
I vote to remove that marriage button, it is wee bit to easy...or masquerade as a lemur of the opposite sex with a mask and marry whom you want to, start a Laanx love revolution!
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Please don't close the thread, it's a great discussion -
I think Yliakum should continue with its awesome and progressive nature - we have women who can wield axes as well as men, racial discrimination is outlawed, it's just a great ancient progressive society - and absolutely, let all of us get married to each other, regardless of gender. I think it is a great idea - the gender restriction should be removed on marriages.
Please do not remove the marriage option - being married is awesome and immersive and full of drama - I love it - and trading with some noob but accidentally almost marrying him cracks me up every time - so big YES for marriages, it helps our world.
I do think that removing the gender restriction would eliminate the pockets of clandestine same sex creatures who - back in the old days - seemed to be more explicit romantically, kind of...mm...like a bit too explicit and I did wonder if it was because they felt kind of outlawed, that the romantic aspect had to be so in-your-face.
But that isn't the point. The point is Yliakum is darling and totally unique and progressive - the only open source mmorpg around, we should not have male-female explicitly written into our marriage rule. But we have to keep marriage, half the rp I know of would have died otherwise - and even right now, there is a pending marriage that might fall through and I swear it keeps things interesting :love: :love: :love: :love:
/me throws a pebble into gossip and smiles. Cheers all, big love :love:
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Haha Rig, so glad to see you still stirring the pot with your wit and chains, [Lhaa says hi o/]
Hi there Siteya! It's been a while. Glad to see you again. [ Tell Lhaa I said hi back :) ]
I vote to remove that marriage button, it is wee bit to easy...or masquerade as a lemur of the opposite sex with a mask and marry whom you want to, start a Laanx love revolution!
I agree. Down with the button!
PS is not set "in Medieval Times" but fantasy-themed with some vague "antique" flavor. In "Medieval Times" there were no octarchs, arenas, polytheism or ulbernauts, let alone krans or enkidukai or a massive underground world. Also in many societies some forms of homosexual marriage were allowed in ancient times, although were usually restricted to transgender males who were treated (more or less) as females (female homosexuality has almost always been "invisible").
That's inaccurate at best. Homosexual marriage was never allowed in ancient times for reasons explained above. Transgender males were extremely rare, an it was a practice restricted only to a few ancient cults like Cibele's where the ritual emasculation transformed the subject in a priestess of the goddess.
I'm no historian, but I'll leave this here. In brief, the legality of homosexual marriage and relations were not the same in all medieval societies and changed over time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_medieval_Europe
We should keep in mind that Planeshift's history is vastly different than real world history. It's medieval likeness is rather shallow at best therefore, we should not rely too heavily on the use of real world history to legitimize or exclude certain practices.
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You know, guys, just because you can propose to someone it doesn't mean that you're ensuring a legal marriage. I am all for homosexuality, but I think in this setting it should be outlawed, or at least on some of the levels. Obviously people are going to propose to people of the same sex, which is going to start some great RP. Also, it could make some great setting development RP protests that become so big that the Octarchy has to rethink this.