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Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: Rigwyn on August 20, 2014, 07:11:46 am

Title: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Rigwyn on August 20, 2014, 07:11:46 am
So here's a fun question that's kind a simple at face value, but gets a little more tricky as you dig into it.

What are you, exactly?

If you cut off an arm or a leg, you are still you.

If you could cut off everything from the stomach down and your arms, nose and ears, you would still be you, right? If so, then you are not these parts.

If with the aid of advanced life support equipment, you could cut off everything from the neck down and still live, you would still be you, right? There would be no loss of self...

And if someone else could have their head attached to your now headless body, they would still be themselves.. they would not be you. Right?

Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Caraick on August 20, 2014, 07:35:27 am
Thanks for bringing philosophy into it, Rigwyn.  :D

Theseus' Ship: If an old ship is brought back to shore, and every last part of it replaced with new timber, sails, and rigging, is it still the same ship?

If Dr. Xavier's consciousness occupies another person's body, is that person now Dr. Xavier? It hits on the most fundamental concepts of where we draw our identity from.  If we say it's merely something physical, such as the quality of our race being bipedal, there are a thousand examples akin to the ones that Rigwyn's brought up that seem to dig at a physical grounding of identity. 

So where must the self be?
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Rigwyn on August 20, 2014, 07:57:29 am

I like the ship analogy, Caraick :)

Well, if we say that the person is their thoughts and the brain is just a mere appliance like a lamp or television, then that seems to solve the problem for a while, but then you could argue that without the brain , there are no thoughts just as the light from a light bulb depends on the current and filament.

So say you wanted to dissect this problem by pausing the body and mind using some freaky alien technology, making a perfect clone of the person, an then copying their mind into the clone.

If you now un-paused the clone, would the "self" or "me" be transferred to it? Would you suddenly wake up in this new body?

What if both bodies were un-paused at the same time? Would there now be two instances of the same "me" or would you have two different "me"s ?
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: bilbous on August 20, 2014, 08:00:06 am
I am the bacteria that inhabits this fleshly robot.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Rigwyn on August 20, 2014, 08:05:42 am
It kind of makes you wonder just how small the self is once you chop away all the extraneous crapola. Are we nothing more than a "this" pointer or a bacteria or growth on a pile of flesh?

Also, is wiping out someone's memories ( say through electroshock therapy  ( I use the term therapy lightly here)) roughly equivalent to killing them if you draw self from one's mind, self awareness and memories?



Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Caraick on August 20, 2014, 08:16:57 am
One theory of identity posits that our identity is formed by the memories and experiences that we've seen in our lives.  That our self is defined through a collection of experiences and images from life that constitute our identity. 

The easy objection to that, however, is memory loss or diseases that cause similar effects.

It does, I think, however, point towards a non-physical basis for human identity.  Towards something less material.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Rigwyn on August 20, 2014, 08:34:24 am
Perhaps its a mistake to assume that the self is singular. An onion for example, it not any one layer. It's all the layers.

If you change the "I am" self reference to a "we are" self reference, then you survive the mutilation in the thought experiment lab, no?

ie.

"We are the thoughts, memories, processes and fleshy things that are collectively referred to as Rigwyn."

To build on that, if you refer to yourself as "we are", might it also be logical to expand your sense of identity by including fellow people and other life forms?

"we are the thoughts and fleshy things that are collectively called the human race."
"We are life"
"We are the planet"
"We are the universe"
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Caraick on August 20, 2014, 08:37:19 am
If we assume the self is plural, then the finger that is chopped off by an errant knife is also, just as much, 'me'.  As is the blood that lies on the ground thereafter.  Problematic, I think.

Especially when extrapolations are made to identify the sense of self as the entirety of the Universe.  In that case, Rigwyn is just as much Caraick as Caraick is Rigwyn.  The names themselves are meaningless, if all is one.  Again, problematic.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Rigwyn on August 20, 2014, 08:41:43 am

Problematic if you need to identify things as singular, yes.

As for the finger, when it's chopped off, the cells in it are still very much alive. Same goes for the blood on the floor. Therefore, we are made up of not just one "life" but billions of tiny,co-dependent lives. We are a collection of living organism and colonies of living bacteria, are we not?



Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Caraick on August 20, 2014, 09:04:51 am
Our bodies may be, surely. 

But I don't think we want to call Rigwyn's finger laying bloody on the ground Rigwyn.  Or else you may get eaten by the dog. And I don't think Rigwyn likes getting eaten by dogs.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: bilbous on August 20, 2014, 09:46:49 am
Another theory is that the self is just the cross-chatter interference of the electrical signals passing through the neurons.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Volki on August 20, 2014, 09:53:20 am
One theory of identity posits that our identity is formed by the memories and experiences that we've seen in our lives.  That our self is defined through a collection of experiences and images from life that constitute our identity. 

The easy objection to that, however, is memory loss or diseases that cause similar effects.

That's not an objection. That is an addition. Our identity is formed by who we are biologically and our experiences.

When you lose an arm, you have lost a part of your self. Your body is not just some tool. It is you, and your brain recognizes that. In your mind, you have an image of yourself which allows you to orient your body and perform actions without constantly having to look at your body parts to make sure they are doing what you want them to do. When you lose a part of this map, you don't lose the map. This creates the phenomenon called a phantom limb. The fact that you have lost a part of something that is recognized by your brain to be a part of itself means you have lost a part of your own self.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Caraick on August 20, 2014, 09:59:15 am
Sounds like you're arguing for a more physical foundation for the concept of identity, then. 


I think one might argue that, when you lose a body part, your personality will change, but you are still very much the same person in an ontological sense.   If I transferred Rigwyn's consciousness to a computer, somehow, when his body expired, would he not still be the same person? By your argument, he would cease to by Rigwyn at all, once his body has died.  Are not quadruple amputees still the same person as before?
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Volki on August 20, 2014, 10:21:54 am
I don't believe they would be the same. Even their personalities will change after something so drastic. If we lived in a world where limbs could be replaced, the psychological effect would be much less, possibly nonexistent, but you still would have lost a part of yourself.

Our bodies are basically a collection of organisms living together. Every cell has become so dependent on the others, though, that we are now categorized as our own organism.

I personally do not believe that consciousness is separate from our physical bodies. I believe that a consciousness inhabits a body, but that it cannot really be defined as "a" consciousness. The body is a vessel for consciousness to experience the world. This could be through humans, dogs, or flies. The level that the consciousness is able to experience the world is based on the biological make-up of the body it inhabits. But once a body ceases to exist, the consciousness does not retain any memories.

So, I don't believe that each person owns a consciousness. But I believe that consciousness allows us to truly be aware through inhabiting our bodies.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Eonwind on August 20, 2014, 10:32:45 am
Interesting.
Albeit you all seem to be irresistibly drawn to define identity by scientific (or pseudo scientific) means. ;D
Since this is a philosophic matter my answer will be philosophic.

I am always becoming.

This means that none of the parts that make myself can be changed without consequences. If any of my parts is chopped away, including the mind, the soul or any of my body part I am no more the same person I was before.

Speaking about the concept of "we" as opposed to "self" I think the sheer fact alone that we are able to conceive ourselves as a "standalone" identity make each of us a "self" in it's own right, however we could never ever be what we are if what is outside of us would not exist, so we are surely part of "we".

In the end I think we are "I" and "we" at the same time and the two identities cannot be easily separed without making the other meaningless.

Unfortunately a lot of persons are not really aware of the "we are" concept and live their lives just like it would not exist.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: BoevenF on August 20, 2014, 12:45:12 pm
I can't believe it, but I concur with Volki  ;D
Interesting book about this argument is "The Mind's I" by Douglas R. Hofstaedter and Daniel C. Dennett. Even if their vision of the mind if I recall it correctly points to a "mechanical" origin, it's a wide collection of scripts about consciousness by many authors, so I think valuable per se.

I think the trick is the meaning of self, if we want to think about as a nucleus of awareness  that identifies our "presence" in the universe since our birth, or as a living bucket of experiences and interactions with the universe surrounding us
and constantly modified by sensorial experiences.
I tend to apply the latter.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: LigH on August 20, 2014, 02:20:32 pm
Oh, I can offer a "Douglas" too... a Dougles Noel Adams.

Don't look into the Total Perspective Vortex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_in_The_Hitchhiker's_Guide_to_the_Galaxy#Total_Perspective_Vortex). For the one who wants to be happy, ignorance is bliss.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: BoevenF on August 20, 2014, 04:02:12 pm
I am a pie.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Aramara Meibi on August 22, 2014, 01:15:52 am
just part and parcel of the supreme
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: tman on August 22, 2014, 06:51:30 am
Theseus' Ship: If an old ship is brought back to shore, and every last part of it replaced with new timber, sails, and rigging, is it still the same ship?

I like this question because, in my opinion, it's not about the physical world at all but about the way we as humans perceive and categorize things.  (Also, I just took a few benodryl a while back so forgive me if I don't make any sense.)

The universe doesn't care what is a "ship."  The idea of "ship" is something humans came up with as a shortcut for any number of configurations of wood, nails, sails, etc.  What is "wood"?  It's a broad term for some specific configurations of elements, each of which is just a name for a specific arrangement of protons, neturons, and electrons.  Etc.

So in this case, I think the answer really is "there is no answer."  I would say, yes it is the same ship because when I consider what makes a "ship" I am thinking of the configuration of the pieces, not the pieces themselves.  But that is just a matter of perspective on my part.  If you asked "if you take an important sword and replace the hilt, and then later replace the blade, is it still the same sword?" then I would say no, because in this case I feel that it is the blade which makes the sword.  But that's just the way it's organized in my brain.

You can apply this to humans too.  If I lose a kidney or break a hip and doctors replace it with a new one, I feel that the replacement is part of who I am and the old dead one is not any more.  You can do this with all body parts except the brain.  If you replace my brain, the body is no longer me.  The brain is the "essence" of the person just like the blade is of the sword.

Final note: http://xkcd.com/659/ (http://xkcd.com/659/)

Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Donari Tyndale on August 22, 2014, 01:40:50 pm
I'm the universe. God, if you wish to call it that. The only thing that exists. You all are a part of me, as is the earth, the solar system and everything else. Which still doesn't mean I give a hippy shit about saving the trees or starving children.

Now, that was the easy part.

The hard thing about your question is really that of why the heck our consciousness is a local phenomenon, i.e. why you think that you are in your own body.

In my eyes, the body of animals has, through interconnectedness by neurons, achieved a certain degree of coupling in the fog of quantum uncertainty that is the universe. The information that enters at one point of the body is transferred to a central entity, the brain, quick enough before randomness destroys that information.

The thing that separates my consciousness from yours is that my information entirely depends on the signals gathered by the cells that make up my body. I think that conjoined twins (There is a famous case of two with one body and two heads) are capable of having a sense of identity as being one being, but that also humans have the ability to have two identities in one body (Such as is the case of multiple personality disorder).

So while being joined by neurons gives you the ability to have a single consciousness, it is no must.

Now, another question is of course that of superorganisms such as ants. I think that ants are rightfully regarded as a single organism and have an identity as a colony, but I doubt that they have a sense of consciousness as a single being. If they were to travel lightyears instead of a few centimetres, the information they carry back into the colony is certainly subject to quantum uncertainty. Thus, humans can have a social identity as being one, but I doubt they would be able to share a single consciousness as they are not physically connected (yet).

Now, if you are the universe itself, why do you have a consciousness at all? I mean, one would not expect the universe to have a consciousness.

The answer to that perhaps lies in the quantum mechanic nature of the world. Without anyone observing the universe, it is in all states simultaneously (Schrödinger's Cat, essentially). You are an observation of the universe, a state of the latter. In fact, every human being is a state on its own right, such as every animal and everything else. Quite obviously, the universe seems to prefer to be observed (A collapse of the wave function, if you may), as if it would not, we would just be some weird quantum fog. Going one step further, we perhaps can think of the universe liking to be maximally observed, i.e. the more information a certain state can observe, the more likely the universe is in that state. A single electron can observe a single bit of observation, spin up or spin down, thus its consciousness would be pretty limited. Undoubtedly, humans are the type of being on earth that has a maximal consciousness, thus being able to observe a lot of information at once, thus being a likely state of the universe to be in.

To summarize, if you are a state of the universe, you are likely to be a state that carries some maximal observation power, i.e. a human (or similar).

Lastly, while it holds for me that I am the universe, so does it hold for you. Your consciousness is also a valid state for the universe to be in, and you are your own universe in your own right.

Welcome to the Donariverse, bitches.

Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Donari Tyndale on August 22, 2014, 02:11:43 pm
Another implication of this point of view is that the state of the universe is "now". Part of your consciousness is the observation of a "past", which really does not exist. You observe the universe at this point of time and come into being only right in this instant. Your past and memories are rather a likely past, i.e. the most likely chain of events resulting in the now. A state of the universe with the ability to carry a memory is just more observation power, a further increase in likelihood. And in the context of relativity, it's not even that hard to understand. Memory is just the temporal transferal of information, just like neurons are the spatial pathway for information. Both, however, are subject to quantum uncertainty (Including your past, which is pretty cool to think about).

This relates to the ship problem in the following: Imagine Martians came to earth and were able to teleport you, albeit with destroying you in one place and making an exact copy of you in another place. No one, including yourself, would notice a difference after the teleport.

From my point of view, the answer to the problem at hand is quite simple. As you are existing only in the now, you don't need to care about whether you are destroyed and assembled again.

Your past, and thusly the past of the universe, are rather a sequence of events that result in the state in the now. However, even though you do not have a past, as your consciousness has a sense of past information observed, you can just live on happily as that just seems what the universe likes.



Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Cairn on August 22, 2014, 05:30:18 pm
I like to consider myself a hunky stud.

On a deeper note, I think it's quite easy to derive millions of theories about what you are.

I prescribe to dirt.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Eonwind on August 22, 2014, 05:32:08 pm
Since your discussion is pseudo-scientific I would only like to point out you're missing just a small piece of information: the second thermodynamic law, which implies a past exists.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Donari Tyndale on August 22, 2014, 07:51:10 pm
Eonwind, we're not talking about thermodynamics, really. Quantum theory takes precedence as thermodynamics arises from it in a large scale limit.
The past exists but is of statistical nature (law of large numbers, which gives rise to thermodynamics). Your perceived past is the most likely past that resulted in the state you are in now. Which features an ever increasing entropy.
Basically, you are measuring your past only in the now and thus determining it. However, it is the most likely one.
And this is far from pseudo-scientific, it is as scientific as such talks get. Human consciousness unfortunately can't be put into a formula yet.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Timil Deeps on August 22, 2014, 11:44:54 pm
Whoo... talk about a topic close to my own heart.  I'm no expert or anything, but I majored in Cognitive Studies and minored in Psychology; Riggy's question is akin to the big issues we had to wrestle with in that course of study, especially as it relates to the concepts of "mind" and "consciousness," and the the debate of Dualism versus Materialism.  We looked at phenomena such as Phantom Limb (as mentioned by Volki) and read a couple of books by Daniel Dennett (including an audacious work entitled "Consciousness Explained"), among many others.  I could go on, but suffice it to say that while I'm not an expert, I'm definitely an aficionado of the topic.

Regarding the metaphor of Theseus' Ship, I would add that we already undergo a similar process known as Apoptosis (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apoptosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apoptosis)), in which various cells die off and are replaced. The popular myth is that this occurs over the course of 7-10 years, by which time you basically have a whole new body, but the process is actually an ongoing, rolling cycle of renewal. Research suggests that different cell-types have varying lifespans, and some aren't even replaced if/when they die (such as the cells of the cerebral cortex).*

I am always becoming.

I think this is a nice brief, if not very comprehensive summation that describes our transitory nature as temporal beings. However, I think Rigwyn's question is trying to get at our essence(s) as beings in relation to ourselves, eachother, and our physical environment.

One of my favorite answers to this question is by C. S. Lewis, who was reflecting on whether people really have souls or not. His conclusion was this:
Quote
"You don't 'have a soul'; You are a Soul. You have a body."

I realize this quote proverbially "breaks the hermetic seal on a metal cylindrical container of subterranean invertebrates" by including topics such as spirituality and religion, but the question is so big that I don't think physical sciences alone can comprehensively/meaningfully address it.

...Aaand that's all the time (and big words) I have for this post, for now...

I look forward to continuing this discussion!

-Timil

*See this selection of articles for more info on cell-death and replacement:
http://askanaturalist.com/do-we-replace-our-cells-every-7-or-10-years/ (http://askanaturalist.com/do-we-replace-our-cells-every-7-or-10-years/)
http://www.livescience.com/33179-does-human-body-replace-cells-seven-years.html (http://www.livescience.com/33179-does-human-body-replace-cells-seven-years.html)
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/02/science/02cell.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/02/science/02cell.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Rigwyn on August 23, 2014, 07:55:16 am
Nice posts, guys. I'll have to chew on some of these a little later.

A few related thoughts that I'm still playing with. ( well, one thought for now, I guess. I forgot the others after typing this one up... :/ )

Regarding Volki's suggestion that consciousness is something external that inhabits a working body ( Correct my if I misinterpreted this ), I'm not so sure I like that idea but, but if you word it a little differently, then its more palatable to me.

ie.

Thought, mind, consciousness is energy that has passed though the body and brain. Perhaps in the same way that electricity changes when it passes though a coil or a light bulb, perhaps there's a similar relationship with energy and thought. If this is so, then you could argue that this energy was originally external.

With regard to spirituality, I want to say that if there is a god then for me, it would have be the universe itself - not some puny heroin-addict-looking human with a messianic complex or political agenda.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Eonwind on August 23, 2014, 11:11:47 am
Eonwind, we're not talking about thermodynamics, really. Quantum theory takes precedence as thermodynamics arises from it in a large scale limit.
The past exists but is of statistical nature (law of large numbers, which gives rise to thermodynamics). Your perceived past is the most likely past that resulted in the state you are in now. Which features an ever increasing entropy.
Basically, you are measuring your past only in the now and thus determining it. However, it is the most likely one.
And this is far from pseudo-scientific, it is as scientific as such talks get. Human consciousness unfortunately can't be put into a formula yet.

No Donari, you're completely misunderstanding the quantum theory if you think it supersede or can break the two thermodynamic laws. While the future (in a quantum mechanic view) can be seen as a cloud of probability which collide in a "fixed" state when the a phenomenon is observed, the past is an already happened configuration so it's no more in a probabilistic uncertainty state. Also never forged that while the general relativity theory is more like a geometrical theory which not strictly time dependent (and just to make a silly example of what it means does not actually forbid by itself the time travel in the past) the quantum mechanics equation are time dependent and so speaking about the possibility of the past being a cloud of probability now is contradictory.

I also think the introduction and a better understanding of the second thermodynamic law especially in the relativity theory can make it possible to make the QED theory and relativity come closer to each other, perhaps ending all the silliness about possible time travels in the past.

Now speaking about human consciousness has not a scientific definition, so it entirely not a scientific topic, so in the end science is totally unable to tell anything about it; just like science is unable to prove anything outside its own domain (and always remember science is nothing but a method).
That's why any argument involving science trying to explain religion, metaphysic and other topics under the philosophy domain can only be defined pseudo-scientific at best.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Donari Tyndale on August 23, 2014, 02:00:53 pm
I also think the introduction and a better understanding of the second thermodynamic law especially in the relativity theory can make it possible to make the QED theory and relativity come closer to each other, perhaps ending all the silliness about possible time travels in the past.
Mate, sorry, but that just nonsense. Thermodynamics is just statistics, and nothing else. There are no laws on its own, they are a consequence of the underlying theory. If you don't get that, it's best we don't further this argument.

Eonwind, what you do in quantum field theory (the stuff that actually matters), not quantum mechanics (I used QM for the sake of being simpler to understand for most) is that in order to derive the outcome of something at point b while starting at point a is that you allow for everything to happen in between and weigh the possibilities accordingly. This gives you, if you know the incoming particles, the scattering amplitudes for outgoing particles in colliders.

Whatever you consider psuedo-science has always been an integral part of physics, interpreting whatever our model means for us. The many world interpretation or the Copenhagen interpretation are just two of those.

My argument is (And perhaps you've heard a little about QFT and can follow) that as you can not say which state you were in precisely, as it is bound to be subject to quantum mechanical uncertainties (Heisenberg uncertainty principle) you must weigh all possible pasts according to their likelihood in order to determine a "physical" past. Only in the now you are truly observing sharply. The past and future are quite muddy.

I don't see any problems with time travel either, considering I can go around a building and return at the same point in space. Relativity is so much more than just a geometrical theory, it tells us, and to the best of our experimental capacity, that time and space are actually equal parts of spacetime.

Here's a few (thought) experiments:

a) You put the rest of the universe into a sealed box. It would invariably go Schrödinger's Cat on you, and only you opening that box would determine the state it is in.

b) Say you exist now. You take a look at yourself in a few seconds, i.e. you self-observe. In between, you did not observe and were thusly in a superposition of all possible states. Your atoms were statistically spread out all over the universe, you were even in a state that included a superposition of your own death. Do you really think a consciousness can handle something like that?

c) We know of quantum eraser experiments. You can ERASE THE PAST of particles and make, in retrospect, their past a superposition again. This would, in theory, be possible for you and me as well.

P.S.
An electron just doesn't care about thermodynamics, and thus the wave function of you. Thermodynamics solely predicts how that wave function likely behaves.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Pierre on August 23, 2014, 04:03:27 pm
I also think the introduction and a better understanding of the second thermodynamic law especially in the relativity theory can make it possible to make the QED theory and relativity come closer to each other, perhaps ending all the silliness about possible time travels in the past.
Mate, sorry, but that just nonsense. Thermodynamics is just statistics, and nothing else. There are no laws on its own, they are a consequence of the underlying theory. If you don't get that, it's best we don't further this argument.

I understood Eonwind to be saying that a better understanding of why the second law of thermo (entropy always increases) holds could help stitch together QED and general relativity.

There are interesting physics papers out in the past year on the second law of thermo and why it holds, it's a valid scientific inquiry.

Stitching together QED and general relativity?  That's just electromagnetism and gravity - why don't we see if it can unify all the forces, so include strong and weak?  Anyway, I've no idea how that would be done. 

But it would not surprise me if the second law was connected to the arrow of time (always heading to the future, I guess that is another way of stating the second law, not sure about this) which was somehow connected to the structure of spacetime (space and time are not on completely equal footings, there is a minus sign difference), which a better understanding of could point a way towards unifying gravity with the other forces.

I liked that part of Eonwind's comments.  But one correction, general relativity is definitely time dependent.  You solve Einstein's field equations and get what's called a metric, just a way to measure distances in any kind of curved space.  The metric has space and time components.  So it's just like quantum mechanics in that respect.

Agree that consciousness is way too big vast complex and hard to grapple with - we don't even know where it's located - doesn't stop people from trying, but I don't see physics having anything to say about that for a very long time.

Donari, for thought experiment B, I think you are taking one of the interpretations of QM to be true, probably many worlds - if you are Copenhaganist then you would say you were always in the state you observed, you just didn't know it for sure until you made the measurement.  And we don't know which interpretation is correct.  So, maybe we will be able to deal with quantum, with our darling little minds. 

Consciousness probably stretches and grows as we do, I don't think when we were in trees looking a bit more like monkeys that we could have ever grasped the concepts of cars and computers and cell phones.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Eonwind on August 23, 2014, 05:20:58 pm

I understood Eonwind to be saying that a better understanding of why the second law of thermo (entropy always increases) holds could help stitch together QED and general relativity.

There are interesting physics papers out in the past year on the second law of thermo and why it holds, it's a valid scientific inquiry.

Stitching together QED and general relativity?  That's just electromagnetism and gravity - why don't we see if it can unify all the forces, so include strong and weak?  Anyway, I've no idea how that would be done. 

But it would not surprise me if the second law was connected to the arrow of time (always heading to the future, I guess that is another way of stating the second law, not sure about this) which was somehow connected to the structure of spacetime (space and time are not on completely equal footings, there is a minus sign difference), which a better understanding of could point a way towards unifying gravity with the other forces.
Pierre correctly understood what I meant, just a note about time: what I meant time in relativity is just a simple coordinate (sure, with a different sign) but it's otherwise equal to the space coordinates.

I also think the introduction and a better understanding of the second thermodynamic law especially in the relativity theory can make it possible to make the QED theory and relativity come closer to each other, perhaps ending all the silliness about possible time travels in the past.
Mate, sorry, but that just nonsense. Thermodynamics is just statistics, and nothing else. There are no laws on its own, they are a consequence of the underlying theory. If you don't get that, it's best we don't further this argument.
Sure Thermodynamics is just statistics and QM/QED/... are they not???
If you don't get that, it's best you don't further this argument.

Whatever you consider psuedo-science has always been an integral part of physics, interpreting whatever our model means for us. The many world interpretation or the Copenhagen interpretation are just two of those.
Yes correct, whenever physics tries to interpret the meaning of a relativity equation telling us about physical phenomena is in its own right, when pretends to do the same with consciousness (which I say for the n-th time - is not even able to define it) or likely matters is pseudo-science.

My argument is (And perhaps you've heard a little about QFT and can follow) that as you can not say which state you were in precisely, as it is bound to be subject to quantum mechanical uncertainties (Heisenberg uncertainty principle) you must weigh all possible pasts according to their likelihood in order to determine a "physical" past. Only in the now you are truly observing sharply. The past and future are quite muddy.

Speaking about Heisenberg uncertainty principle, you can't take a postulate and stretch it wherever you want. The uncertainty principle is all about measurement and while I think it can be, using common sense, stretched to include "perceptions" as a means to make a measure, you cannot measure now something in the past so it's not even applicable.
The past is past whatever configuration may have been superimposed to the configuration that has become our common past has already collided creating our common past.

I don't see any problems with time travel either, considering I can go around a building and return at the same point in space. Relativity is so much more than just a geometrical theory, it tells us, and to the best of our experimental capacity, that time and space are actually equal parts of spacetime.
Lots of problem and paradox are created by past time travel, possibly including the break of some fundamental physic laws. Many thinks Relativity is a geometrical theory, and the fact that treats time and space in the same exact way (except for a sign) is one for the main reason why it cannot be merged with other theories like QED.
My theory is the always increasing entropy works like an "inflation" mechanism that makes it impossible to move backward in the time coordinate, but it's just my thought. But about time travel there is a great news, we're all traveling through time to the future  ;D

About experiment c) you're going a bit wild with your fantasy, what is possible for a single particle (admitted the experiment is not falsified later) cannot be automatically transferred to a more complex structure or life form. It's science-fiction, full stop.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Donari Tyndale on August 23, 2014, 06:20:40 pm
Eonwind, the whole laws of thermodynamics are derived from quantum statistics. Well, they were there before quantum mechanics, but these days one can derive the laws from quantum mechanics and statistics. The second law of thermodynamics is implied by unitarity of the quantum theory, thus whenever you have a unitary theory, the second law of thermodynamics holds.

Thus, assuming the second law holds, we require any quantum theory to be unitary, including one of quantum gravity. This, in my eyes, is a sensible prediction for and possible quantum theory of gravity.

In fact, most theorems and things like Maxwell's equations/Newtonian gravity can be derived from quantum field theory and general relativity, and thus the phenomena we see every day are just large scale limits of these two theories.

Here, my point of view is that as thermodynamics etc. are just generalizations of QFT, the quantum theories are valid to be applied in large scales. We are, in fact, wave functions. Albeit heavily localized decoherent ones, that is why we do not notice quantum phenomena in our every day lives (Well, some).

I agree that extending these to something like consciousness is far from proper science, call it pseudo-science if you wish. But we are here to speculate on one of the biggest mysteries in life, anyway :D

Perhaps we can agree to the following points?

a) In fact, we CAN measure things in the past. And it has been done experimentally. It is called a quantum eraser.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser

b) Thermodynamic laws can be derived from quantum mechanics and statistics alone.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_statistical_mechanics

c) If there is such a thing as a quantum gravity theory, then everything should only be quantum mechanics at a large scale.

I fully agree that the concept of time travel is something that would violate a lot of physical expectations. A past subject to quantum uncertainties, however, would allow for time travel, as any paradox appearing would just result in a zero likelihood.

Then, the way time travel would be viewed is: Time and space are one, and you are traveling along a time-like curve on spacetime. You have a clock with you that gives you your "eigentime", i.e. the time you as an observer measure to pass.
However, the world is not just a set of four dimensional points. You, on your timeline, have also something that is an additional variable, i.e. your measurement of the world. Going back into the past (the same point in space time) occurs, according to your measurement, later than when you were there before.
On going back, there however is a different measurement of the world. You are back on the same point in spacetime, yet you measure a different world, namely one where you have travlled back in time.




Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Eonwind on August 23, 2014, 09:08:27 pm
Eonwind, the whole laws of thermodynamics are derived from quantum statistics. Well, they were there before quantum mechanics, but these days one can derive the laws from quantum mechanics and statistics. The second law of thermodynamics is implied by unitarity of the quantum theory, thus whenever you have a unitary theory, the second law of thermodynamics holds.
You're saying one thing and its contrary... the fact the thermodynamic laws can be derived from quantum mechanics, means they are coherent theories. My concern about the 2nd law is that a better understanding especially regarding relativity (and QED don't matter anything) may break the "symmetry" or equality between the space and time coords. I'm just speculating.

a) In fact, we CAN measure things in the past. And it has been done experimentally. It is called a quantum eraser.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser
excuse me but where does it exactly say the measure are done in the past??

On the contrary here say http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser#Does_delayed_choice_violate_causality.3F (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser#Does_delayed_choice_violate_causality.3F) causality is not violated, which basically means chances to violate time sequence through quantum means are still science-fiction.
so speaking about this:
Then, the way time travel would be viewed is: Time and space are one, and you are traveling along a time-like curve on spacetime. You have a clock with you that gives you your "eigentime", i.e. the time you as an observer measure to pass.
However, the world is not just a set of four dimensional points. You, on your timeline, have also something that is an additional variable, i.e. your measurement of the world. Going back into the past (the same point in space time) occurs, according to your measurement, later than when you were there before.
On going back, there however is a different measurement of the world. You are back on the same point in spacetime, yet you measure a different world, namely one where you have travlled back in time.
my speculation is nothing of the above is possible without introducing more dimensions, in fact I think there may be more than a single time dimension where quantum phenomenon may exist at the same time in different time dimensions (sort of time "parallel" universe) but going back in your actual "time line" would still be impossible.

So in the end, going back to philosophy: you're doomed to stick to the choices you made in the past and live with it, no matter what you can only change the future and the science can't say this it's wrong; on the contrary all the experimental data from physic, to archeology to geology are coherent in telling us time travel in the past is still unheard of, and unlikely to be possible.

I agree that extending these to something like consciousness is far from proper science, call it pseudo-science if you wish. But we are here to speculate on one of the biggest mysteries in life, anyway :D
Feel free to speculate, but sorry I have fun when science is kicked in a discussion where it can barely say anything about. I repeat this is the field of philosophy not science, it's very funny (and honestly not very constructive imo) trying to use a tool (because I repeat science is a method, a tool) not fit for the use it's used for.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Donari Tyndale on August 23, 2014, 09:47:31 pm
Eonwind, the whole laws of thermodynamics are derived from quantum statistics. Well, they were there before quantum mechanics, but these days one can derive the laws from quantum mechanics and statistics. The second law of thermodynamics is implied by unitarity of the quantum theory, thus whenever you have a unitary theory, the second law of thermodynamics holds.
You're saying one thing and its contrary... the fact the thermodynamic laws can be derived from quantum mechanics, means they are coherent theories. My concern about the 2nd law is that a better understanding especially regarding relativity (and QED don't matter anything) may break the "symmetry" or equality between the space and time coords. I'm just speculating.
A speculation it is. The mainstream view is that relativity can be incorporated into a theory of quantum gravity, though. I tend to adhere to the mainstream in this regard. Also, note that there is relativistic thermodynamics, i.e. you can reproduce thermodynamics of relativistic systems by relativity and quantum mechanics. Thus, relativity and quantum mechanics are consistent.
The symmetry between space and time are broken by the fact that all masses are real and energy is positive. Thus, the particles can only move in their lightcone.

a) In fact, we CAN measure things in the past. And it has been done experimentally. It is called a quantum eraser.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser
excuse me but where does it exactly say the measure are done in the past??

On the contrary here say http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser#Does_delayed_choice_violate_causality.3F (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser#Does_delayed_choice_violate_causality.3F) causality is not violated, which basically means chances to violate time sequence through quantum means are still science-fiction.
You do not seem to understand the setup of the experiment and causality. Take a look at the sections above in the article.

The setup is essentially two entangled photons going through a double slit. One is detected at some time, the other one is detected at a later moment. Depending on whether you choose to measure which path the the second photon took or not, you influence the outcome of the detection that has already taken place.

Yet this does not violate causality as the information from the first photon can only be extracted after the second photon has arrived, there is no faster than light or backwards time transfer of information. Which is just what causality states:
Information can only be relayed in a forward light cone, not faster than light, not backwards in time.

my speculation is nothing of the above is possible without introducing more dimensions, in fact I think there may be more than a single time dimension where quantum phenomenon may exist at the same time in different time dimensions (sort of time "parallel" universe) but going back in your actual "time line" would still be impossible.
Agreed, I am myself quite open to the option of multiple time dimensions.

So in the end, going back to philosophy: you're doomed to stick to the choices you made in the past and live with it, no matter what you can only change the future and the science can't say this it's wrong; on the contrary all the experimental data from physic, to archeology to geology are coherent in telling us time travel in the past is still unheard of, and unlikely to be possible.
It just means that the possibilities of violating reality are tiny, just as the possibility of all your atoms simultaneously tunneling through a doorway. That too is something unheard of.

Feel free to speculate, but sorry I have fun when science is kicked in a discussion where it can barely say anything about. I repeat this is the field of philosophy not science, it's very funny (and honestly not very constructive imo) trying to use a tool (because I repeat science is a method, a tool) not fit for the use it's used for.
Philosophy and science go hand in hand. Without philosophy, you're not able to come up with new ideas and principles in science.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Donari Tyndale on August 23, 2014, 09:55:52 pm
I think I finally know where we disagree but really talking about two different things. I agree that thermodynamics, the behaviour of an ensemble of quantum objects, has increasing entropy. On very tiny timescales, entropy may decrease, but in average and over timescales relevant to us, the chances of that happening are near zero and utterly negligible.
 
My point was that it is possible that the universe did not exist until just now and you just now observing it, which is pure speculation and just an amusing thought. In observing it, you would have also observed a past that conforms to the rules of quantum mechanics and thus thermodynamics.

However, if quantum field theory, the current standard model, holds, your observation is invariably subject to quantum fluctuations, the past as well. You can not give a time-energy graph of anything, that is just Heisenberg. Just as well as you can't give a position-momentum graph.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Volki on August 23, 2014, 10:54:56 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/NDMUrZB.gif)
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Eonwind on August 23, 2014, 11:06:06 pm
You do not seem to understand the setup of the experiment and causality. Take a look at the sections above in the article.

The setup is essentially two entangled photons going through a double slit. One is detected at some time, the other one is detected at a later moment. Depending on whether you choose to measure which path the the second photon took or not, you influence the outcome of the detection that has already taken place.

Yet this does not violate causality as the information from the first photon can only be extracted after the second photon has arrived, there is no faster than light or backwards time transfer of information. Which is just what causality states:
Information can only be relayed in a forward light cone, not faster than light, not backwards in time.

The article is still saying nothing about measure done in the past, and for a good reason... I think you're misunderstanding the experiment results. A measure done in the past would be able to backward change an event happened, and it says (and you say) it's not the case. Also note that it would violate causality.

My point was that it is possible that the universe did not exist until just now and you just now observing it, which is pure speculation and just an amusing thought. In observing it, you would have also observed a past that conforms to the rules of quantum mechanics and thus thermodynamics.

And my point is this is just not possible until the violation of causality will be proved to be possible. But right now it's not.

Quote
Philosophy and science go hand in hand. Without philosophy, you're not able to come up with new ideas and principles in science.

Can be true but it's not a bi-univocal relationship, philosophy has (by design) a greater domain than science and while some scientific facts can be use to strengthen a philosophic theory, science is useless or harmful when thrown at some concepts like consciousness where it can really say nothing about.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Donari Tyndale on August 24, 2014, 12:34:27 am
The experiment is all about influencing the result of the measurement that already happened. That's why there is an article. ;) It does also state that this is just what happens in the experiment, yet causality is something different. You can only cause the observed phenomena once you have the measurement from both photons, you need to wait for the second result to come in even though the first result is already there. That is why causality is preserved.
You can not change the past, however. The measurement from the first photon stays the same.
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: MishkaL1138 on August 24, 2014, 02:57:58 am
(http://i.imgur.com/JQrSWDm.gif)
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: bilbous on August 24, 2014, 02:58:17 am
We are stardust
Billion year old carbon
We are golden
Caught in the devil's bargain
And we've got to get ourselves
Back to the garden
Songwriters: MITCHELL, JONI
Title: Re: What are you, exactly?
Post by: Pierre on August 24, 2014, 07:19:15 am
Full stop.  :love:  Joni Joni Joni...we are the hexagrams of the heavens, the strings of a guitar...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcTDoi9JQiY