PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Kuiper7986 on June 12, 2003, 03:38:13 am
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Here\'s an idea about type of metal for armours and weapons from strongest to weakest:
Bronze
Brass
Iron
Steel
Silver
Pewter
Mythril
(Of course there would be more)
Steel is important so I think there should be more than one type of steel:
Traditional Steel
Tool Steel
Krupp Steel
Stainless Steel
Spring Steel
Damascus Steel
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Mythril is a metal created by Tolkien, a metal that is specific for his world (can even be found in ronescapes for some reason) and should not be used here.
It would be better if you came up with something unique instead of just mention the most common metals.
Why not add adamite as well?
BTW. Is silver stronger than steel?
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Mithril exists in almost every fantasy-rpg. With a couple of exceptions. Although I agree that it shouldnt be used in this game.
EDIT: spelling..
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strongest to weakest:
Bronze
Brass
Iron
Steel
Silver
Pewter
Mythril
ok: i\'m confused now. Isn\'t it the other way around ? Yeah, we should come up with some PS kinda metal: how about we could add some crystal swords like in diablo ? I really liked the way that looked. Besides, theres plenty of crystals in the PS world right ? ;)
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dude, you\'re whacked if you think bronze is stronger than iron or steel, steel is the strongest natural metal known to man. and composites like adamantium(yes it exists, composite steel and aluminum if i remember correctly) are unknown in a fantasy setting
mythril wasn\'t specifically created by tolkein however, mythril is gaelic for silver, he merely changed it\'s properties to be magical silver, of elvish design
I agree with one thing on that list, pewter should definitely be on the bottom... unless you add tin, which is about the only weaker metal
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He must have meant from weakest to strongest.
Anyway Both Mythril and elfs was created by Tolkien. He started it all, and created fantasy as we know it today with elfs, halflings, orcs, mythril etc.
Mythril was the strongest material in the lord of the rings, but also very easy to work with. Therefore it was also very expensive.
However Tolkien was the creator of Mythril, and many fantasy games took after him, just like they did with typical fantasy races like elfes, dwarfs (the fantasy dwarfs), orcs, halflings etc.
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leather, plate mail, silver mail, chaos mail, chain mail..
leather is obviously leather plate would be steel silver being silver chaos some rare magical metal chain mail being steel rings... got it from a great game elkardian
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plate mail, chain mail arent materials, they are designs for armor.
beside leather and metals i would like wood, bones, crystals and felt(word? i mean those pressed, not weaved cotton material, its really good against arrows and hard to cut.)
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fanomatic
Anyway Both Mythril and elfs was created by Tolkien
you know, that\'s awfully strange, elves were an anchient celtic myth, just as dwarves, borog, and trolls were from nordic mythos, and satyre, as well as nymphs and medusae were grecian mythos
tell me, do you think that fairys and halflings (another word for hobbit, which WAS a tolkien creation) were invented by SSI? most of these things have been in legends for thousands of years, a few of these creatures are older than writing.
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Tolkien simply collected the parts for his mythos from those around Europe. Afaik, most of his creatures and races can be traced into some old stories. And every nation has their ghosts, pixies, gnomes and elves. I believe the names (troll, fairy, gnome) are quite often just different names to same \'creatures\'. But the creatures might be different by culture.
But back to the topic:
The list seems odd. You would place pewter above steel and Iron? I\'d change the list this way: [from strongest to weakest, respectably]
Mithril - Steel - Iron - Bronze - Silver - Brass - Pewter (tin?)
Though we could add some materials like wood and cloth (in different forms), and bone of course. I could imagine that cloth isn\'t suitable for weapons, but it can be made into an armour. :)
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But there are some points I could take up. Now let\'s see, if steel has been invented, there would not be many reasons to use any other materials, except special properties and price. For cheap armour/weapon, use Iron which is very prone to rust. For special and magical properties, use silver (let\'s be Tolkienish and keep Mithril as a form of silver). Now a weapon made completely out of silver wouldn\'t be good, since silver is such a soft material (silver dagger against a steel plate?). So let\'s use \'silvered\' weapon instead. A blade which has silver veins added on it, to deliver the desired effect (kill \'em werewolves!).
For armour, I don\'t quite have a point why to use silver, unless it also has defensive magical properties.
>>>end_of_rant
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other reasons for nonsteel armor are weight and religion/believe.
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oops I must\'ve put Pewter in the wrong area, sorry.....well I do know that Pewter is expensive, that\'s about it, I always thought Pewter was like Porcelain type material. Well you could add wood as an armour, like Mokujin from Tekken 3, bleh, only thing for wood would be a shield, instrument, bow and arrow, and swords, staff, or Rod.
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pewter is a metal that is most often used in statuettes and figurines, it\'s soft enough to be easily sculpted, but will hold it\'s shape, unless banged, whereas some other soft metals will bend under their own weight easily.
in other words, it\'s actually unlikely to be used as an armor in any way, unless it\'s a decorative peice.
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Well, one thing that I think would be cool would be composite materials. In real life, alloys are used to take the properties of two or more differenent metals and combine them to form one material with some properties of each.
I think it would be cool in Planeshift if:
- Each metal has a stength value (how hard it is, so how much damage it can take)
- Each metal has a weight value (how light it is, some characters prefer lighter armor above all, though this in most cases be inversely proportional to strength)
- Each metal has some \'special\' characteristic (maybe it absorbs some amount of magic damage, takes less damage from demonic/holy weapons, etc.)
- When you are creating metals used for smithing, you can melt together different metals to gain some properties of each metal (so if iron was high in strength and weight, and absorbs 10% fire damage, and tin is low in strength and weight, and absorbs 20% damage from holy weapons, then the resulting alloy would be medium strength, medium weight, absorbs 5% fire damage and 10% damage from holy weapons (assuming you use a 50/50 combination, otherwise the values would be different)
Just a thought 8)
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that would probably be an alchemists job there... still, composites weren\'t truly understood until modern times, about the only thing known about them was that gold could be made stronger and varied in shade and hue by melting them wild silver, nickel, brass or zinc. beyond that, very little was known about combining the strengths of metals.
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OOps, wild=with
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>>mythril wasn\'t specifically created by tolkein however, mythril is gaelic for silver, he merely changed it\'s properties to be magical silver, of elvish design
No it is not.
1. Theres no such thing as ?the gaelic language?. Its a term to describe 3 different languages, all of which originated from a certain branch of the Celtic language.
2. Tolkien disliked gaeilge (Irish gaelic) and didn?t use it in any of his books. He did use Welsh to create one of the languages (sindarin i believe) and Welsh is not a gaelic language, its from a different branch of Celtic.
3. Mythril is ?airgead? or ?soith? airgid? in gaeilge. Its not Irish Gaelic or Scottish.
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I mean weakest to strongest...
(No, I\'m not here, I\'m just a figment of your imagination.)
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First of all, Tolkien did borrow a lot of material from Norse mythology. This isn\'t to say the man wasn\'t a genius.
Right, as far as materials for armour, the only ever used historically/archaeologically (I am an archaeology major) are
Cloth, Leather, Wood, Bone/antler, Copper, Bronze, Iron and (very impure Carbon-type) Steel. Leonardo da\'Vinci perhaps designed an arrowproof (crossbow bolt-proof) vest by using lead as well. As far as I know, Brass, Pewter and Silver were never used except ceremonially (as they were too expensive-silver, or didn\'t exist commonly-Brass and Pewter)
In order of strength (from weakest to strongest) I would have to suggest these armours:
Light Armour Category:
Cloth
Cloth with some Wood
Cloth with some Bone
Soft Leather
Thick/Hardened Leather
Medium Armour Category:
Hardened Leather with Bone
Copper (small plates sewn together, needs only pounding, not smelting)
Bronze Mail
Iron Mail
Steel Mail
Heavy Armour Category:
Copper Plate
Bronze Plate
Iron Plate
Steel Plate
Of course, special fantasy metals could be included, but I don\'t think mythril should be, it\'s been used too much. Also, being an archaeologist, I am always wary of steel being used; steel as we know it wasn\'t invented until the gossamer technique in the 19th century. There was some semi-steels before, but the process is very difficult as it requires melting the iron ore at very high temperatures with coal and pumping massive amounts of air through it to remove impurities (oxygen bonding etc.). The more carbon in the steel, the harder but more brittle it is. Stainless steel doesn\'t exist without chromium (very difficult to extrude from ores). Possibly, planeshift could include steels that have zinc or aluminium additions, but they didn\'t happen historically.
Just my thoughts on the issue,
Xirius
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Yeah the first list was too unoriginal...
But wow go provisionist! I truly like it. It seems more uhh..cant find a word for it...more..\"realistic to a world like planeshifts\"
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>>Right, as far as materials for armour, the only ever used historically/archaeologically (I am an archaeology major) are
And what about the armour and weapons used by the Samurai ? Are we solely using Western European technology here ?
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add some mysterious metal :
Oxanyte (nb : I hope this name didnt exist in reality lol) :
Oxanyte is a strange composite metal. It\'s a very rare one just because it\'s hard to find : if you want to find Oxanyte ore you have to mine under the ocean.
It has been discovered by the dwarves who mine deeply near a coast and under an ocean. Once the Dwarves find it they were so exited they continue to dig ... but the ocean was to close and the tunnel was immerged...
he dwarves Oxanyte tunnel :
|.....................................................................|xxxxxx___xxxx
xx\\.............................................................../xxxxxx___xxxx
xxxx\\......................................................./xxxxxxx___xxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ___xxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxOxxxxxxxxxxxxOxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx___xxxx
|___________________________________________xxxx
. = ocean
O = Oxanyte
_ = mining tunnel
x = earth
Oxanyte is a black ore with blue reflect. It\'s really strong and rare as the mythrill. (maybe is the Oxanyte the mythrill of PS?)
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Thought I would offer my knowledge on the subject...
Originally posted by mcclane
And what about the armour and weapons used by the Samurai ? Are we solely using Western European technology here ?
Example that doesn\'t fit into what I said? If you are refering to their \"steel\" that is simply very pure iron folded and heated at high temps? Um, essentially that is it. Their armour was typically small (2cm x 4cm) plates of this type of iron sewn together, with some hardened leather. If I am mistaken, please tell me, but with examples please.
Western technology only? Nope, bone and antler were very North American and Siberian. Perhaps leather should also be divided into furs, suedes and rawhides. Again, tell me if I am wrong but with examples.
Originally posted by fken
add some mysterious metal :
Oxanyte (nb : I hope this name didnt exist in reality lol) :
Oxanyte is a strange composite metal. It\'s a very rare one just because it\'s hard to find : if you want to find Oxanyte ore you have to mine under the ocean.
It has been discovered by the dwarves who mine deeply near a coast and under an ocean. Once the Dwarves find it they were so exited they continue to dig ... but the ocean was to close and the tunnel was immerged...
Oooh, good material concept. Definitely something like that should be added, but of course very rare and terribly expensive.
Xirius
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>> If you are refering to their \"steel\" that is simply very pure iron folded and heated at high temps? Um, essentially that is it. Their armour was typically small (2cm x 4cm) plates of this type of iron sewn together, with some hardened leather. If I am mistaken, please tell me, but with examples please.
Except their swords were significantly better then anything Europe had to offer for a very long time. Their armour was usually made of metal and leather but you forgot to mention that it was renowned for been light and non-restrictive in movement.
The samurai were possibly and probably the most advanced warriors in the world before muskets and rifles started.
>>Western technology only? Nope, bone and antler were very North American and Siberian. Perhaps leather should also be divided into furs, suedes and rawhides. Again, tell me if I am wrong but with examples.
Howabout some Celtic/Gaelic weaponry ? Instead of a stick u could have a hurl :P
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Thought of something: Leather armour for planeshift will have to include for example: Rat hide, Tefusang hide, Clacker carapace, etc.
mcclane: You\'re right about the samurai, but then, I said nothing about quality of manufacture, only the raw materials used. A really well made suit of bronze mail could be stronger than poorly made iron plate armour. This should also be taken into account when the devs create the armour products. Samurai had better armour than westerners simply because it was higher quality, but they used the same ores out if the ground.
Lets see, as far armour absorbing damage, these factors must be taken into account: material, quality, and what is\'t being hit with (hardened leather good against bludgen attacks, but poor against arrows). Maybe wearing the scales of a clacker and the teeth of a tefusang protects against red way spells.... somthing like that.
I was saying nothing about the weaponry, though it would be made from similar materials. Again, quality of manufacture must be a major factor in this. Example: Two Kran. Same skill levels, one being level 10 in hammers and one being level 10 in swords. A well made wood and stone club should be around the same damage as a poorly made iron sword.
As far as weapons materials, I think from worst to best (not taking into account quality of manufacture) would be: wood, antler, bone, stone, copper, bronze, iron and *cough* steel, perhaps followed by fken\'s Oxanyte.
This is an example of a system I would like to see implemented:
Llyando vs. Xirius (it\'s ok, the example is me and my housemate)
Quality is how well made the item is, i.e. the samurai swords from kill bill would be 10/10 and a sword made by a terrible apprentice would be 1/10. Strength is the strength of material. For example, a rat hide simply thrown over the shoulder would be 3/100, a suit of bronze mail would be 40/100, bronze plate would be 50/100, oxanyte plate would be 100/100.
Broken would be a penalty for any brokenness of the item. 10/10 would be undamaged, 1/10 would need to be replaced.
Llyando is wearing tefusang hide body armour (quality: 4/10, strength: 25/100, broken: 10/10). He is also carrying an iron shield (quality: 3/10, strength: 65/100, broken: 8/10). Finally, his weapon is a bronze falchion (quality: 8/10, strength: 30/100, broken: 9/10)
I am wearing bronze mail (quality: 5/10, strength: 40/100, broken: 8/10). No shield. I am carrying two iron falchions (both quality: 4/10, strength: 55/100, broken: 10/10).
Right, an example of combat: Pretend we have the same skills in swordplay and armour.
1. I attempt a hit from my right handed falchion, Llyando dodges
2. I attempt a hit from my left handed falchion, Llyando blocks with his shield: Here all the previous stuff comes into play:
My total damage is as follows: (4/10) x (55/100) x (0.75 penalty for being right handed) x (10/10 brokenness) x (80my strength) x (1.2 bellcurve randomiser from .5 to 1.5) = 15.84 damage
His shield blocks damage as follows: (3/10) x (65/100) x (1 grrrr ambidextrous, no penalties ) x (8/10 brokenness) x (70+80/2 the average of his endurance and strength) x (.9 bellcurve randomiser from .5 to 1.5) = 10.53 damage
His does not safely absorb all the damage, there is 5.31 that the shield couldn\'t handle. He is not hit, but his shield is more broken than before. Items have their own hitpoints determined as follows: Their material (65 for Llyando\'s shield) multiplied by 10 and multiplied by the quality (3/10). This gives his shield 195 hitpoints, and I just lowered it by the 5.31 damage from my attack, his shield goes from 156/195 to 151/195. Not enough to lower it to 7/10 for the next blow, but after a couple more hits like that, it might.
3. The battle will ensue, I won\'t detail every hit. The randomiser if you\'re wondering is to take into account all the little things like if I ate a not so fresh rat eye for breakfast and feel a little whoozy.
This probably requires reading through a couple times, but I think it makes some sense. Essentially every hit is a calculation taking several factors into account, including skill levels in applicable areas that I choose to omit as they would make what I said much more impossible to understand.
I think the devs have a system like this already, just not yet taking into account materials and quality.
Comments?
Xirius
P.S. I think I\'d win the battle...hehehe
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It\'d probably be better to have quality uncapped but progress on a logarithmic scale. That way there is no real upper limit to what a craftsman can achieve, but diminishing returns would kick in (that said, the scale should be shifted for more difficult items to craft - perhaps the difficulty should be a divisor, so the output quality should be something like:
Log n ((Blacksmithing + Relevant Crafting * Bellcurve Randomiser (0.5,1.5)) / Difficulty)
With n being an appropriate base for good early progress, but slowing progress later.
Ideally, a 1.0 for quality for an item should be reasonably hard to obtain (for simpler items this level would represent being a real blacksmith rather than just an apprentice), pushing above that would become much more difficult. Above that will require much time and practice, and those craftsmen that attain that level will reap the benefitcs.
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(I don\'t know if this was mentioned above or not, I was rather lazy when skimming through everything :P)
Personally, I like the idea of the unique metals and having new names for these metals. This is a different world we\'re on, so couldn\'t it be possible for there to be different raw materials than what you would find on earth? Yes, I understand this is to take the role of a medieval fantasy and shouldn\'t be sci-fi, but that doesn\'t mean we have to use the terms \"steel\" or \"bronze\".
What if, instead of even using metals, all of the weapons and stuff were based entirely on different types of crystal ore? Some of the crystal ore could look similar to metal. Other crystal ore could have it\'s unique look.
Another idea with the crystals: Crystals could also have say a \"degree of purification\". The higher the degree, the more purified, and the stronger the crystal will be.
So, let\'s say for example, we make up a name for a type of crystal, \"Castellite\". This could be a reasonably strong crystal by nature, probably around the iron stage or something. Now say when we buy a Castellite sword from the merchant, it\'s not purified. It\'s just a normal Castellite sword. Then we go to a specialty shop to actually get it purified. Purification could cost us more money (maybe a lot more), but that sword will get stronger after each purification.
This would not only allow for a change from the everyday steel sword and bronze armor, but would also allow more versatility when it comes to different strengths of swords.
Just a though anyway.
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Too much like runescape. And that game is foolish. I prefer, rather then having repeats of weapons using different metals they should be just totally differen weapons and like magical/blessed weapons. Plus, who ever heard of a bronze sword O_O;
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Originally posted by T0rk . Plus, who ever heard of a bronze sword O_O;
ummmmm ok i guesse u need some more schooling have u never heard of the bronze age??????
what do u think most things were made of than???
ill give u a hint bronze
(oh and yes they made bronze swords then)
edit for some spelling
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Originally posted by T0rk
Too much like runescape. And that game is foolish. I prefer, rather then having repeats of weapons using different metals they should be just totally differen weapons and like magical/blessed weapons. Plus, who ever heard of a bronze sword O_O;
Agreed. That\'s why I suggested what I suggested a couple of posts above. I think it\'s unique and provides a different take on materials altogether...in my opinion anyway.