PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Edico on November 16, 2017, 08:51:25 am
-
I play this game since 2006. And with this character, "Edico", since 2008.
These days most of the time I was the only one player online.
Besides the fact that this game has become boring even with players inside, I am constrained to respect stupid rules like starring at the screen while my character is hitting the dummy.
Today I received the biggest disrespect for me as a player since I play this game.
I'm done with this game. I want my account to be deleted.
I am not intending to play this game, ever.
Thank you!
-
No disrespect from me, ever. Be well, old pal.
Esanor Serich
-
Make a thread about this issue without directly referencing your ban. Otherwise they have justification to delete your threads.
-
Thank you Volki! I edited my post.
-
I have to echo that the GMs are being kinda problematic about the issue with the dummies. It's obvious that they were created for the sake of training and grinding skills but to get onto people who are alt-tabbed because it's absolutely boring to just sit there for hours and watch your character hit a dummy for a minute after making one click of the mouse and instead expecting people to stare at the screen for hours with the only action you have to take being a click of the mouse is expecting people to endure absolute boredom. And it's absolute boredom to bring for example your axe skill level up from say 100 to 101/102 and not do anything else because you don't want to get banned. At the end of the day do you expect people to still want to play this game instead of something else if you're going to force that experience on someone?
I understand GMs have concerns about it because of botting but there's a clear difference between alt-tab training and botting. The problem comes in when somebody is alt-tabbed, they get turned around, and then suspected on botting when they don't respond for a few minutes. Before GMs decide to take action they need to at least wait 20 minutes because I don't see somebody botting for less than 20 minutes, but with alt-tabbing it seems reasonable to not respond for a few minutes. I've gotten warned by a GM one time who just straight up said 'take care of afk training' and jumped offline before I could even give a response, and I mean immediately. I don't see 'afk training' being against the rules even though things like scripts/botting or taking advantage of bugs are. If GMs are going to take enforcement on an action then it needs to be established in rules first.
But to not get long winded, why were dummies developed if they're going to be policed like this? Because if you're going to police people like this you might as well just expect people to grind their weapons on mobs, which is equally redundant. This is especially problematic when your ability to deal with enemies relies on specifically raising the weapons or magic skills, which are extremely painful to raise.
Staff needs to take this as an example of what happens when problematic and boring developed features are policed - you drive away your playerbase. Which is already hurting in numbers. Sorry if this comes off as an attack but I truly do like Planeshift's world and lore and I hate to see it die out due to a lacking playerbase. I feel like Unreal Engine is going to lure more players in and the unfair policing of forcing people to partake in a very boring feature needs to be addressed before it causes a controversy in the next generation of players that Unreal may attract and gives the game bad word of mouth.
Quick edit to add another note: Grinding is also more or less filler due to a lack of development of a larger world with more to fight and skill-build with. So with it being filler you ought to just let things like afk training slide until a more fleshed out game is built and the grinding is less time consuming. And the 100-200 levels of skills need to be made less time consuming.
-
Edico, just click on profile and then on delete this account.
If you want your in game accounts deleted, it may take some time. An alternative is to change your password to some huge ass string of random text and the forget about it.
-
To add to Geoni's last point, I'll paste what I said from the deleted thread.
Here's PS and grinding in a nutshell:
>devs make roleplaying game
>"encourage" roleplay by making grinding so tedious and boring that players don't want to do it
>turns out players will do anything to realize their character's potential
>grinding is so boring that you barely have to interact with the game to do it
>passive grinding becomes preferred method among players
>GMs crack down on "botting" by punishing players that passively grind
>GMs decide to call it "AFK training" and punish players that aren't botting
>GMs punish players that grind while alt-tabbed or just not looking
>using game's features is punishable
>players leave because they realize this is illogical
Another thing. I don't get how you can make a game with grinding this tedious and then expect players not to bot and passively grind. This game encourages those things via mechanics. There's a point at which people recognize unfairness and decide breaking the rules is reasonable. This game is well past that point.
I feel like Unreal Engine is going to lure more players in and the unfair policing of forcing people to partake in a very boring feature needs to be addressed before it causes a controversy in the next generation of players that Unreal may attract and gives the game bad word of mouth.
This. I've already seen it happen a bit.
Maybe Talad should try playing this game to see how unfair it is. Try to get to 100 in a few skills. See how much he's even able to roleplay. In fact, try having a life while he's not allowed to alt-tab from training. Conditions are that he only gets one monitor, like most of us, and can never break the rules.
-
... If GMs are going to take enforcement on an action then it needs to be established in rules first.
...
"You may not be AFK (away from keyboard) and leave your character doing an action over and over by itself (e.g. fighting)."
Source: Rules page http://207.244.96.64/PlaneShift/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367016#msg367016
(http://207.244.96.64/PlaneShift/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367016#msg367016)
The idea of gaining skill is so that it's not so easy you max out everything in two weeks. Realistically if you were going to learn a task and become the best, a master it's going to take time, years even to fully master that craft. From what I understand it takes about 200hours to fully max any skill. That's just over a week (granted you are not going to do that at one time with no breaks!) But think about it, most of us do 12 years in school THEN go on to anywhere from 2-6 years of college, sometimes, even more, to fully become a professional at something. It's not that far-fetched. I know of SEVERAL players who have done it legitly, on multiple characters even. Some people choose to read while they grind, others utilize Netflix or youtube, or web browsing. Use windowed mode, we are not saying you have to stare AT your char 100% of the time, but you need to be glancing over at them every few minutes or so. We don't just ban lightly despite what you might think, most of the players who have been banned for this action got several warnings.Noone who gets to the point of getting a ban for it is unaware of the rule. And there are also several people who don't even bother to train they just RP or train idly when they do have the time.
Maybe we should put the dummies in a PvP zone :devil:
-
The idea of gaining skill is so that it's not so easy you max out everything in two weeks. Realistically if you were going to learn a task and become the best, a master it's going to take time, years even to fully master that craft.
This is a video game. We're playing fictional characters. It's a roleplaying game. This is not a life skill simulator. It is not a wizard simulator. No one except maybe you and the developers want it to be that. Gamers do not want to play that.
Also, school is meant to keep children occupied and give them knowledge to handle the real world. No one goes to school for 8 hours a day for 12 years and learns one subject. It isn't even remotely similar.
By the way, you've been lied to by most of those players. Please come back to me after you've maxed a Way.
And let me reiterate: this is a video game. We've already told you numerous times why the design is terrible and illogical. Why people break the rules. Why they play characters that don't match mechanical skill. Why they quit.
You're desperately holding onto a terrible idea. There's plenty of good ones that will not destroy the playerbase due to unfairness. Just grant ranks based on time and what actions your character performs. Or implement character age and let older characters have high skill from the get-go. Do both. There's so many other better ideas that support roleplay.
THEN go on to anywhere from 2-6 years of college, sometimes, even more, to fully become a professional at something.
Yeah. In real life. This is a video game. Most people don't have that time to waste in real life and then in-game.
My friends make fun of this game because none of you realize how absurd the grinding is. (That and the persistent bugs.)
Maybe we should put the dummies in a PvP zone :devil:
I'm not sure why you think this is funny. You're a GM of a game that regularly hits lows of less than 5 players online. That you think it's okay to make such jests in this situation is odd.
-
... If GMs are going to take enforcement on an action then it needs to be established in rules first.
...
"You may not be AFK (away from keyboard) and leave your character doing an action over and over by itself (e.g. fighting)."
Source: Rules page http://207.244.96.64/PlaneShift/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367016#msg367016
(http://207.244.96.64/PlaneShift/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367016#msg367016)
The idea of gaining skill is so that it's not so easy you max out everything in two weeks. Realistically if you were going to learn a task and become the best, a master it's going to take time, years even to fully master that craft. From what I understand it takes about 200hours to fully max any skill. That's just over a week (granted you are not going to do that at one time with no breaks!) But think about it, most of us do 12 years in school THEN go on to anywhere from 2-6 years of college, sometimes, even more, to fully become a professional at something. It's not that far-fetched. I know of SEVERAL players who have done it legitly, on multiple characters even. Some people choose to read while they grind, others utilize Netflix or youtube, or web browsing. Use windowed mode, we are not saying you have to stare AT your char 100% of the time, but you need to be glancing over at them every few minutes or so. We don't just ban lightly despite what you might think, most of the players who have been banned for this action got several warnings.Noone who gets to the point of getting a ban for it is unaware of the rule. And there are also several people who don't even bother to train they just RP or train idly when they do have the time.
Maybe we should put the dummies in a PvP zone :devil:
What's the difference between botting/scripting and afk training? Because you eventually need to click something to continue or you are scripting something. The rule words it like 'leave your character doing an action over and over by itself' when it should just be one 'over' here because repeating the action more than once (initiated before afking) requires a script. And I've been accused of 'afk training' when I was just alt-tabbing and didn't look at the screen for around 5-6 minutes because I was writing a post on a forum. But that's not being away from the keyboard. And the alt-tabbing thing is what I don't see in the rules. Indeed, you're posting here saying the 'legit' players would read or watch netflix windowed.
200 hours per skill is ridiculous by the way and it just highlights my point on why this isn't going to keep new players interested going forward. Especially when it'll get boring after about 4/200 hours of training that skill. And your use of real life skill building as a justification is far-fetched. Games are not real life and shouldn't take as long to learn a skill in as it takes in real life. And not only is skill-building in real life going to create a productive outcome but it likely isn't doing a repetitive motion for 200 hours straight.
As for the people who just RP and don't train, I used to be one of those people back in my early years on PS after I was introduced to RP around half a year in, because I found RP so interesting I more or less abandoned training/questing/mining platinum for the guild. But the problem with not training but RPing comes when you want to play a character who knows a decent bit of magic (at least most of the tiers) which requires an even worse form of grinding and questing for glyphs, or has some combat skills and could feasibly fight a monster and kill it or in the least fight it without dying in 2-4 hits. But because of your always having to be IC rule you have to grind in order to justify IC skills. Or completely avoid monsters so you don't die even though your character isn't a weakling/coward in how you intend to RP them. Thus, Planeshift's mechanics are putting a restraint on people who want to be fully dedicated to RP.
You can say "If you want it you should work for it." That's fair but when the grind is very time-consuming and very boring, who would want to? In fact people with time restraints may not even be able to.
-
Chill people! Gesh it was just how I had interpreted it as a player as far as the idea was for it I have no idea. That's something to take up with the devs. I personally have maxed maybe close to a dozen skills or so amongst several characters. It takes time and patience and is crazy hard. But I am guessing with it also being a PvP game that there has to be some work into getting skilled otherwise what's the point? I really have no idea, I was just trying to explain one theory or thought about it. There has always been and will always be the argument between power levelers and RPers. Devs and Players. It's impossible to make everyone happy. So just do what makes you happy and have fun as long as you're following the rules. And remember Devs make the game and rules, the GM's just enforce them. If you want a change you need to appeal to them. I really don't care, it's their game and if I want to play I have to abide by their rules. I've heard the devs have said in the past it might just be easier to remove the dummies altogether, who knows? I really don't know
If you are not paying attention to your char and it's doing actions and you don't respond to us then how do we know if you are botting or AFK/Tabbed out? We don't.
Depending on how many times you have been caught/warned and what the action is we usually wait anywhere from 5-20 min. And a verbal warning or tell from us is not considered an official warning most of the time, the record that we can look up in game easily is done with the /warn command you get big red letters across your screen and that stays on your permanent record, if I do a /listwarnings on you and you have several already for that offence I'm not going be so inclined to wait 20 min because I know you know the rules and should be paying more attention. And depending on the actual offense we don't just ban unless you have at least 1 previous /warn for that behavior.
Geoni the GM you speak of was Sorka, he' s no longer with the team and he also had pretty bad internet connections and that's why he did not help with events so much because he could lose his connection at any point and was not reliable enough.
And yep. I crack jokes. That's just who I am. ;) Those that know me know that I'm always the one to lighten up the situation and I was being sarcastic. They would be pointless in a PvP zone. They were designed for people to test weapon damage on, not to train skills fully on anyways, they already reduced the health and made them take damage in full def to try and keep people from AFK training as much. Ideally I think the idea (again I don't know here this is just my opinion, nothing official) was if you train using mobs that are your level or just slightly above it, you gain skill in your weapon, and your armor, pps all equally at the same time so they progress together at the same rate and you are interacting with the world. But people are always looking for a faster/better/lazy way of doing things so this seems to have become the norm for training it, though it was never intended this way. *shrugs* I really have no clue just thought I'd point out a few things and be helpful I never said I agreed with the idea that it takes so many hours to fully max a skill.
I'm just rambling on at this point, no idea if any of this will even make sense, so don't hold it against me! Just trying to show you both sides of the picture some.
-
I personally have maxed maybe close to a dozen skills or so amongst several characters.
You've never maxed a magic skill. Don't lie by omission.
It's impossible to make everyone happy.
Using an idiom to support your argument when your argument did not depend on a premise involving 'everyone' is underhanded. What you should have said is this: either the developers or players are happy. And that leads me to believe you either don't play very many other games or you know absolutely nothing about game development. If both are not happy, the game invariably fails. If one of either is not happy, the game suffers and eventually dies. Especially if players are unhappy.
But I am guessing with it also being a PvP game that there has to be some work into getting skilled otherwise what's the point?
Um... The most popular PVP games do not involve a ton of grinding. Or any at all. In fighting games, you unlock characters. In online FPS, the most that's expected is unlocking new weapons and gear. MMOs with PVP have to make grinding fun or part of the PVP so the player is entertained. But your skill is entirely dependent on twitch, aim, and strategy. It's dependent on you. In fact, most PVP games try to match players of similar skill or rank so that you don't get a ridiculous situation like PS has where noob characters are vastly underpowered. A noob can hardly kill a diseased rat. My character can force choke hundreds of mobs within a ~50 foot radius with hardly any effort.
Other games with PVP recognize that grinding takes away from time spent getting into the meat of the game. So they have grinding as part of the PVP or make it fun enough to retain players. This is the same concept I've been trying to explain when it comes to roleplay and grinding. Grinding takes away from time spent roleplaying. In PVP games, people want to get the edge on other players, so they grind. In this game, people want to be able to mechanically match the IC capabilities of their characters, so they grind. You can't stop people from grinding alone without stopping them from playing. (In PS's case, it used to be that serious roleplayers would just ignore mechanics, thus a huge portion of the game, but now they tend to leave the whole game.)
And remember Devs make the game and rules, the GM's just enforce them. If you want a change you need to appeal to them. I really don't care
If you're just a GM and don't really care, don't share your opinion? This thread should be seen as an appeal to the developers.
I've heard the devs have said in the past it might just be easier to remove the dummies altogether
Remove training.
Ideally I think the idea (again I don't know here this is just my opinion, nothing official) was if you train using mobs that are your level or just slightly above it, you gain skill in your weapon, and your armor, pps all equally at the same time so they progress together at the same rate and you are interacting with the world.
Yep, that's totally how that works in real life. No one uses bags. No one uses targets. No one uses literal training dummies that are shaped like humans so they can actually practice aiming strikes to parts of the body. Instead, you go out and murder people who are your skill level. You don't need sparring partners. All you need is to kill wildlife and other people down on their luck.
So much for 'realism in training'. We have to spend hundreds of hours training but we can't use the same means to train that we would in real life.
Sorry, but I'd rather not have my characters turn into bloodthirsty killers that can't sleep at night due to the number of people they've had to kill just to become master swordsmen or whatever. Killing people is not good for your psyche, even if they are criminals.
-
I may be missing the point here, not a power leveler by far, so please bear with me if I get things wrong. Not going to go personal to the level of quoting and replying to things that struck me as odd, I will try to address what seems to be the gist of what I got by skimming through this thread, which got too long too fast, and too bitter for me to read in full right now.
I was wondering, if people get bored by watching a dummy, why not go train with some mobs instead? Many exist in the arena itself, and the loot will make it worth their while more than the shattered straw of the dummies. Guessing the dummies were put there to help newbies get from level 0 to 1 and from 1 to 2, not power levelers who want to grind from 101 to 102. You want thrill, go fight a boss, that trains you too.
That said, I will make a suggestion to the devs that will help things out, at least IMHO: modify the game so that dummies only allow people to train a skill if it is below level 10. Then let people AFK train at the dummies all they want, knowing they will max at level 10 and will need to move to a mob to advance any further. That will make things more interesting than making the dummies a PvP area, and still allow newbies to train to a level that ensures they don't get instantly killed off by the first kikiri or one-eyed rat they try to fight.
As for Edico's original request, I would say wait it out till your ban ends, and if you are still resolute, log into the account and delete your character, then move on. After all this is only a game, and games are meant to help people have fun. If this one brings you no joy, then look for some other game that suits you better.
-
ayyyy "GMs and devs just wanna see people grind the hell outta their game" officially confirmed
-
I was wondering, if people get bored by watching a dummy, why not go train with some mobs instead? Many exist in the arena itself, and the loot will make it worth their while more than the shattered straw of the dummies.
I have done that. I maxed several skills before dummies were introduced. It is worse. Tedious. Annoying. Boring. I'm less bored hitting a training dummy because I can entertain myself with another game or work on something. The loot is not worth it.
It seems you don't know how training works in this game, so I'll describe it as quickly as possible: you find a mob you can train on without dying. That means it's weak enough not to hurt you too much but resilient enough that you get the most practice points out of its lifetime. That's boring. Whether or not there are training dummies, it's boring. But it's the best method because any other would take much longer and be more tedious. Then there's progression points, which don't make any sense from a design or realism perspective. You have to gain PP from killing hundreds of mobs just to purchase stats. The only positive aspect of PP farming is loot.
You want thrill, go fight a boss, that trains you too.
Bosses are meant to be killed by a party of players, firstly, and you do it for the loot. If you are training on a boss, you are doing it wrong. This is such a weird suggestion that I'm doubting you've ever fought a boss or maxed any combat skill.
That said, I will make a suggestion to the devs that will help things out, at least IMHO: modify the game so that dummies only allow people to train a skill if it is below level 10.
I'm pretty sure that's not feasible with PS's code. But, besides that, this is going to drive away players. Rank 10 is extremely weak. If you are not knowledgeable about this game, you should strive to learn more about it before making suggestions that could be harmful to the game.
Also, for the record: it's almost evening on a Friday and there are 11 players online right now. Counting myself who is online just to watch the playercount.
-
Tempted to reply. Migg is not maxed, on purpose. He has fought a couple lesser bosses by himself, successfuly. He picked a skill that allows him to do just that. Trained it slowly and hardly ever visits the arena, mostly does it to test different weapon's effectiveness in a static environment that allows him to make direct comparisons and infer effectiveness statistics.
I wonder why people want to max. So that they can fight other players? The environment? For me this game's appeal is the interaction with other players. Killing a mob became a lot less fun as soon as Migg got above 60 in ranged, now it takes no brains, just brawl. I do it to keep roads clean for others or loot the stuff I need. I can go anywhere and return unmolested. I don't have to hit a dummy for hours on end just to see my stats reach that top level that means there is no longer anything to do when RP is not available. I am in no hurry for the game to end.
That said, what has so drastically changed since the time this game was thriving? Is it AFK training that drove the player base away, or just that the game development has crawled to a halt and no new content exists to tempt old players who have completed every quest and maxed every skill into returning to the game? I wonder.
-
I wonder why people want to max.
To roleplay characters that actually contribute to their world and can be depended upon... If you want to roleplay twink, indigent, or disabled characters, go ahead. But most people don't play fantasy roleplaying games so they can play "your average everyday guy" character.
Being maxed is way more fun than being a low level. Player-skill becomes relevant. You can be practically a superhero. Considering you haven't reached that point, I'm not sure why you're poo-pooing it.
-
I may be missing the point here, not a power leveler by far, so please bear with me if I get things wrong. Not going to go personal to the level of quoting and replying to things that struck me as odd, I will try to address what seems to be the gist of what I got by skimming through this thread, which got too long too fast, and too bitter for me to read in full right now.
I was wondering, if people get bored by watching a dummy, why not go train with some mobs instead? Many exist in the arena itself, and the loot will make it worth their while more than the shattered straw of the dummies. Guessing the dummies were put there to help newbies get from level 0 to 1 and from 1 to 2, not power levelers who want to grind from 101 to 102. You want thrill, go fight a boss, that trains you too.
That said, I will make a suggestion to the devs that will help things out, at least IMHO: modify the game so that dummies only allow people to train a skill if it is below level 10. Then let people AFK train at the dummies all they want, knowing they will max at level 10 and will need to move to a mob to advance any further. That will make things more interesting than making the dummies a PvP area, and still allow newbies to train to a level that ensures they don't get instantly killed off by the first kikiri or one-eyed rat they try to fight.
As for Edico's original request, I would say wait it out till your ban ends, and if you are still resolute, log into the account and delete your character, then move on. After all this is only a game, and games are meant to help people have fun. If this one brings you no joy, then look for some other game that suits you better.
You do realize that mobs are repetitive as well and a lot of the stronger bosses require you to have like all your stats maxed and very high weapons/magic skill to face them alone if you don't have friends who are also around to help and of decent levels as well?
The only reason I see dummies having been implemented is because devs know how grinding is, but then team turns around and wants to police a lack of development/filler.
-
I deleted my character. It seems there is no "account deletion". I changed the password of the account with a random password generated by a random password generator.
For me is over.
Bye!
-
I believe Venalan was looking at re-writing the ruling so both players and GM's could understand, do remember though this is like no other game, we are player/testers, a carrot on a stick, in fact we are testers, the player audience is not catered for as the project takes priority over everything. Sadly a game with no players, 4 online as I speak, is not a game.
-
Dear all,
Just a few thoughts on this sad and serious topic.
- A game has rules, and these rules are meant to be followed by everybody. Break the rules, you are punished. That is hardly worth a discussion.
- Whether the rules are good as they are, that is an entirely different point, and therefore should be discussed separately.
Of course PlaneShift has some problems, of course the rules are not perfect, of course we should discuss them. But separately.
The GMs are like sport referees. They do not make the rules, but they enforce them. If they do not, they are not doing their job properly.
A tennis referee decides whether a shot was out of bounds or not, and punishes players by giving points to their opponents. He does not have the right to allow a player to play inside the doubles corridor during a singles match.
A GM who catches a player cheating must take some action (see point 5).
Of course GMs should take part in discussions and decisions about rules, but they are not taking those decisions on their own!
- PlaneShift is an RPG, not an Idle game (Idle not as an adjective, but as the genre name, where you just set some parameters, and the game then plays by itself). RPG means you act out your role, so it is not really asking too much to check your game screen every five minutes or so.
If you wish to be AFK, no problem, but don't do AFK training. A player who had been around since 2006 knows this. - As a side note, I believe that good RP has absolutely nothing to do with your skills. Good RP is achieved by the way you are inside your character, and the RP situation. Whether you are able to slay Maulberlords, or merely rats does not make a difference there. But this, too should be in other threads...
- Finally, we have the standard complaints about GM behaviour. In other threads and in Dev Meetings, the GMs have repeatedly explained how they proceed when they suspect some player of breaking the rules (they contact and warn the players, then do some small action, then some bigger action, and only after repeating this several times, there is a ban). I do not seem to remember punished players describing in similarly detailed ways GM misbehaviour. Quite the opposite, in the case of Talcon (early 2015) I asked him repeatedly to check his logs for GM messages, and he never bothered to give us any information.
Pretty much the same here, all we know is that Edico felt disrespected. But why, and how? Since Edico left, we are not likely to get an answer.
Please also remember that GMs are doing their job (which also includes the many events!) in their free time, so the least thing players should do is to be respectful and polite towards them. I do understand that this is a radically new approach for some, but do try it, and you might be surprised by the GMs' reaction.
Enjoy the game (with its rules...).
Gonger
PS This is how you delete an account: Click the Profile link, then under Actions you will find the option Delete this account. I honestly wonder what is so difficult about this.
-
Lex iniusta non est lex.
-
Lex iniusta non est lex.
Fancy Pants :)
-
I've seen here people that strived so hard to find arguments for something that is not psychologically normal.
I've seen too many stupidities in this thread.
Emaline and Migg look innocent.
But the player "Gonger", that according to his profile is 53 years old, has blown my mind making analogies between the rules of the tennis sport which is an entertaining activity and the rule of starring at the screen which is no activity at all. That the GMs are like referees! Referees of what? Role Playing Game when there is no one to role play with.
I played this game in periods when the server was crashing like 10 times a day and we were waiting hardly each time to be up again. When there were like 170+ players online. When there were 15 players from my guild online. Now you are happy if you see 15 players in the entire game.
If I know the rules? Obviously I know them. But in the past the game was compensating me with other things.
Now I was the only one player online and the only thing that remained from this game was the stupid rule of starring at the screen.
Some people like role playing in this game (I didn't like), others like fighting, others like crafting, ... and so on.
What remained from this game for me is not as much the stats and skills I developed with my character. For me was my guild, "The way of the Hammer", that made me seen other things in people which you can't see them in real life. Even I was probably one of the worse Hammers, my guild definitely changed my character in the game.
This game is not what was in the past and I don't think would be again.
I think this discussion has enough.
I please the moderators to close this thread.
Thank you!
-
But the player "Gonger", that according to his profile is 53 years old, has blown my mind making analogies between the rules of the tennis sport which is an entertaining activity and the rule of starring at the screen which is no activity at all. That the GMs are like referees! Referees of what? Role Playing Game when there is no one to role play with.
I will make one final attempt, so nobody can say I did not try...
The basic principle of multiplayer games is IMHO "Equal rules for all". If you bend those rules in your favour, it is called cheating. Referees are supposed to prevent cheating. The referees of PlaneShift are called Game Masters.
The analogy is between playing tennis, and playing PlaneShift, and it is perfectly valid. If this blows your mind, well, maybe you are still too angry about all those events. Anger is a bad consultant.
Those who wish to use their own rules because they do not accept the principle "Equal rules for all" have two options:
1) Keep playing multiplayer games. But then they must live with the risk of being punished by the referees.
2) Stop playing multiplayer games. Nobody cares how they twist the rules if they play all alone.
Gonger, aka the Mind Twister
-
Gonger, Edico hasn't suggested anywhere that the rules should be applied differently to him. He's said the rules are unfair given that the content of the game encourages the actions that the rule disallows.
An unjust law is not a law. That's what this incident boils down to. The developers and GMs are expecting players to follow an unjust rule. The GMs are responsible for this as well because they have plenty of sway with the developers. The developers are not moderators; they shouldn't be the sole influence on what should be moderated.
People naturally do not follow illogical and unfair rules. This rule is that.
-
Gonger, Edico hasn't suggested anywhere that the rules should be applied differently to him. He's said the rules are unfair given that the content of the game encourages the actions that the rule disallows.
Well, he is also complaining about punishment (what he calls disrespect, without explaining what exactly it is). This implies that he feels treated in an unjust way. But he states that he knows the rules. Break a rule, be punished. So what is this all about, then?
An unjust law is not a law. That's what this incident boils down to. The developers and GMs are expecting players to follow an unjust rule. The GMs are responsible for this as well because they have plenty of sway with the developers. The developers are not moderators; they shouldn't be the sole influence on what should be moderated.
I am talking about this in detail in point 2 of my first post in this thread. Bad rules need to be discussed (by everybody involved!) and changed, and the new rules need to be applied to all players equally.
To my best knowledge, the rule quoted by Emaline ("You may not be AFK (away from keyboard) and leave your character doing an action over and over by itself (e.g. fighting).") has never been applied as harshly as Edico claims. See point 5 of my first post. (Why do I have to repeat all this???) Nobody is expected to stare at the screen all the time. They are expected to react every now and then.
This rule is far from being perfect. For example, after how many minutes is a player considered AFK? Two, five, ten? This should be stated precisely.
Nobody ever said that PlaneShift is a perfect game... and neither are the people in and around PlaneShift.
People naturally do not follow illogical and unfair rules. This rule is that.
Fine. But is it not better if at the same time people try to improve things? For example, start a discussion at a Dev Meeting.
PlaneShift is constantly evolving and probably always will be.
This means a chance for everybody to contribute to improve it.
Merely complaining about unfair behaviour will not achieve this.
Good night now,
Gonger
-
Gonger, Edico hasn't suggested anywhere that the rules should be applied differently to him. He's said the rules are unfair given that the content of the game encourages the actions that the rule disallows.
This implies that he feels treated in an unjust way. But he states that he knows the rules. Break a rule, be punished.
Did you miss the part where I said that "an unjust law is not a law"? You're blessed if you've never been punished for absurd rules in your entire lifetime. Just because you know you're going to be punished for breaking an absurd rule doesn't mean you deserved punishment. Being aware of a rule doesn't mean you agree to follow it. The defiance and ignoring of absurd/unjust rules/laws has been called "civil disobedience." If people are having to do that in a video game, you've really screwed up.
An unjust law is not a law. That's what this incident boils down to. The developers and GMs are expecting players to follow an unjust rule. The GMs are responsible for this as well because they have plenty of sway with the developers. The developers are not moderators; they shouldn't be the sole influence on what should be moderated.
I am talking about this in detail in point 2 of my first post in this thread. Bad rules need to be discussed (by everybody involved!) and changed, and the new rules need to be applied to all players equally.
To my best knowledge, the rule quoted by Emaline ("You may not be AFK (away from keyboard) and leave your character doing an action over and over by itself (e.g. fighting).") has never been applied as harshly as Edico claims.
Apparently he's saying it has. It's probably happened to others. Maybe noobs. I know other players who have been annoyed by it, though I can't recall if they were kicked (but that's down to my memory). For all I know, the noobs I've been trying to get to stay in the game were kicked or banned for "AFK training" and refused to return. If I was a noob and was told I couldn't train while AFK when the game clearly demanded it, I would quit immediately.
Nobody is expected to stare at the screen all the time. They are expected to react every now and then.
Which is only slightly less absurd? Why should you need to react if the training dummy or whatever is going to die eventually? The only reason GMs should need to check is for botting. And upon finding out someone is just AFK and training normally, they should do nothing.
This rule is far from being perfect. For example, after how many minutes is a player considered AFK? Two, five, ten? This should be stated precisely.
Yes. Alternatively, let people go AFK while training in a game that encourages it and stop punishing people for doing what they're naturally led to do.
People naturally do not follow illogical and unfair rules. This rule is that.
Fine. But is it not better if at the same time people try to improve things? For example, start a discussion at a Dev Meeting.
How many times does this topic need to be brought up before the people defending the rules/grind admit that it's been criticized? How much do we need to complain in-game, on the forum, and in gossip for the developers to take notice? I'd be surprised if it hasn't been brought up at a dev meeting, but that doesn't seem like the appropriate place to bring it up.
This means a chance for everybody to contribute to improve it.
Merely complaining about unfair behaviour will not achieve this.
Because complaining about unfair behavior never improved a community, society, or anything at all, ever. Complaining has only ever left the world in a worse place, where people are imprisoned without due process, low-born women can't own property, and blacks and whites can't live in the same neighborhood.
Where do you think I got the phrase "lex iniusta non est lex?" It sounds so pretentious that I'd only ever use it in a situation where it's extremely relevant. This is that.
To add to that, complaints can be criticism. This is obviously criticism while being a complaint. Nothing improves without criticism. Almost every online game that I've played in the past decade has responded to complaints with improvement. Developers actively seek criticism while making a game (it's called testing). If this many of your players are complaining, you've made a mistake.
Also, I'm not sure that even you believe people shouldn't complain about unfair behavior. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you might want to reconsider that notion.
-
Loud noises
-
- Equal rules for all.
- No cheating.
- Discuss and change bad rules.
I cannot express this in a more simple way. If somebody still manages to misunderstand me, so be it.
I give up.
-
What is sad in this discussion is that that the many of the hardcore players that left the game are not here anymore to say their opinion.
Instead the most talkative here is a player (gonger) that he does nothing when he enters the game. He stays there without doing something.
-
.....Instead the most talkative here is a player (gonger) that he does nothing when he enters the game. He stays there without doing something.
Not true. I play different GM events whit Gonger and receive help from him at the beginning when i start to play. And i've always found the GM very helpful and funny :devil: . And ,for what it is worth, i don't think this kind of discussion have much sense. I mean , exist Dev Q&A where you can ask , propose, or discuss peacefully. So if sometime the rule seem to be against you. Be smart, take a breath, analyzes the situation, talk whit other players, involve a GM. Ask and the universe respond. This is my opinion and experience of course. Bye