PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Migg on June 15, 2020, 10:46:55 pm
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As part of a recent RP, a simple book was collaboratively written and an attempt at producing translations in the languages of Yliakum was made. What was apparent by this effort is that most of the Language Projects (http://planeshift.top-ix.org/pswiki/index.php/Category:Language_Projects) in the PS Wiki (http://planeshift.top-ix.org/pswiki/index.php/Main_Page) are far from complete.
It is clear these projects have been started many years ago, and have not seen any attention since a very long time. What I feel is needed however is some work to bring these project to a level where basic texts can be translated, to facilitate better RP. I understand that aligning these projects to a state where a full dictionary, grammar and syntax guides are available for all is a daunting task. It could well be possible however to outline a basic set of rules and create a basic vocabulary that are both adequate for daily interactions, and also serve as guidelines to help players invent new words and phrases that will sound consistent, without requiring extensive knowledge of linguistics to do so.
I am not sure if any of the players who initiated these projects are still around in any capacity, and are willing to continue their efforts, but I would like, lacking the skills myself, to ask any players willing to help, to consider making any contribution, big or small, toward expanding these projects.
As a starting point, I will try to provide a rough outline of the current state of what is (and isn't) right now in the PSWiki as far as I could judge, only playing a Dermorian character and not having any linguistic expertise:
- Right now, Enkien is fairly robustly represented with a dictionary, grammar, cardinal numbers table (but no ordinal numbers), a set of examples and a set of useful phrases. Pronunciation and writing are also covered, but the language project could still use some expansion (I personally found ordinals to be the greatest omission, but Migg does not really speak Enkien.)
- Klyran has an extensive page thoroughly describing the language and providing rules on how to create various forms from a common root word, that greatly enhances its usability. Again Migg has not used the project much, but nominal as well as ordinal numbers are included. Pages include a fair vocabulary (which can be vastly extended using the rules set in the language page) and a couple of stub pages that have not been finished. I have seen the resource being used to achieve great results, and believe this could serve as the standard to compare other projects with.
- Nolthir only contains a sparse page, but points to an Elven language resource detailing Quenya, which should prove ample for any translation effort. This could be considered adequate, or an effort to deviate from that external resource could be considered, if anyone feels up to it.
- Pel Perrakithor (Stonebreaker) appears to be fairly well developed, with more than 12 pages devoted to its description. I have not used it in any capacity, but a translation to Pel Perrakithor is due, and that will gauge the project's usability.
- Ylian is sparse, with only a short page and scarcely any words. The language needs to be worked on before even simple phrases can be uttered in it.
- Gadermara (Dermorian) has only one page devoted to it that, while well written and very useful, is in need of great expansion before it becomes truly useful for anything but simple sentences used to spice normal RP. Again I found the lack of ordinal numbers especially limiting in the translation effort, but the vocabulary is also in need of expansion.
- Ignf (Diaboli) is also limited in scope, and contains very few words, though the race is not available for new players and hardly any Diaboli exist in the game, so this may consequently limit its appeal as a project.
- Lemur and Kran of course speak the common language, and therefore do not require much in the way of a language project, though I must note the Lemur have inherited a set of symbols used to write their language from the Xacha, but no mention is made on whether Kran use the same symbols or not.
Perhaps the players who did the Enkien and Klyran translations can post their own views on the subject, and their ideas on what is missing. Still, I hope this post helps spark some renewed interest in these PSWiki pages.
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The Klyran translation wasn't too challenging, given how well-developed it is. Well, other than trying to remember what I was taught decades ago. I had to do a few revisions and fill in a few gaps, but it came out fairly well, I think.
The other languages don't have as much detail, but there are a number of articles about creating languages out there. Apparently someone actually created a Dothraki language for Game of Thrones. I wonder if it might make things easier if languages were modeled after an existing language, at least for sentence structure and how words are modified by context. Things like verb conjugation, or making words possessive, or different tenses. Not really my field, but it is a fun task.
The Xacha alphabet has been cast adrift, it seems, by the merger of Xacha and Lemur. Maybe someone from settings can weight in here, but do Lemurians and Kran both use the same written alphabet? Was that always true? I'm trying to think of a reasonable way to keep the Xacha alphabet associated with Lemurians, but maybe another race could use it if Lemurians can't.
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The Klyran translation wasn't too challenging, given how well-developed it is. Well, other than trying to remember what I was taught decades ago. I had to do a few revisions and fill in a few gaps, but it came out fairly well, I think.
It came out more than well, but that is why it contrasts so painfully to the other translations. I would have liked a similar result for the other books as well.
The other languages don't have as much detail, but there are a number of articles about creating languages out there. Apparently someone actually created a Dothraki language for Game of Thrones. I wonder if it might make things easier if languages were modeled after an existing language, at least for sentence structure and how words are modified by context. Things like verb conjugation, or making words possessive, or different tenses. Not really my field, but it is a fun task.
I am afraid some of the less developed languages are already modeled after an existing language, or else have an underpinning syntactical and grammatical outline, which is not available as context. It may be easy to discern these patterns if you have the right skills, but this is not my field either. Personally I would love to help, but I have no clue how to go about it.
If someone would be able to set some general guidelines, players could help expand the language, adding words or phrases as need arises. In any case, if anyone has an idea, please comment; any contribution will help!
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And here I went and did it, added a word to Gadermara: Family = "efanaà", now all I need is someone to add it to the PS wiki!
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The Xacha alphabet has been cast adrift, it seems, by the merger of Xacha and Lemur. Maybe someone from settings can weight in here, but do Lemurians and Kran both use the same written alphabet? Was that always true? I'm trying to think of a reasonable way to keep the Xacha alphabet associated with Lemurians, but maybe another race could use it if Lemurians can't.
I have a downloaded graphic of the Xacha alphabet. I'm pretty sure I got it from a link on the Lemur Language page of the PSWiki, which would be the part where it says "Here":
Please note that Xacha and Lemur races have been merged into a single race in 2011. So we are going to use the former Xacha language for Lemurs.
Here is the list of symbols for the Lemur written language.
Source: http://planeshift.top-ix.org/pswiki/index.php/Lemur_Language (http://planeshift.top-ix.org/pswiki/index.php/Lemur_Language)
From this, I gather that there was intent for the Xacha language (and, subsequently, alphabet), to be used for Lemur.
That, however, still doesn't explain if the Kran also used this language...
Cue Tidebringer trying to figure out the lore from limited available resources... :detective:
If we look at this segment, from the "Second Epoch: Division" section of the History page, it says the following:
Though they were simpler in mind than the Lemurs, they were also given the same language skills and called themselves 'Kran'.
Source: https://www.planeshift.it/History (https://www.planeshift.it/History)
From this, it would be perhaps too much of an assumption to say they were created with the same language (despite nothing clearly stating that they weren't) -- especially considering that all it says about the Lemur language (in the same Epoch), is the following:
Having been given full self-awareness, intelligence, and understanding of language by Laanx, they called themselves 'Lemurs'.
Source: https://www.planeshift.it/History (https://www.planeshift.it/History)
So I looked deeper, as you do, and I found the following under the events of 10 AY in the "Race History in Yliakum" segment of the Lemur race page:
The Lemur, now mostly deaf, were still unsettled and confused by what had happened so they were suspicious of the Kran, and avoided them at first. A leader emerged from the group of Kran worked not only with the Kran, but with the Lemur, struggling to build a friendship between the very different races. The Kran, dealing with vibrations, had no problems learning to communicate the Lemurs.
Source: https://www.planeshift.it/Lemur (https://www.planeshift.it/Lemur)
Given the reference of the Kran having "no problems learning to communicate the Lemurs", it rather seems to imply that they weren't created with the same language, but rather both with the abilities to make languages of their own. All in all, everything I've been able to see -- from the above to a certain Kran from Jayose's Library mentioning in passing translating works written in the "old language" -- gives no clear-cut indication as to whether or not the Kran ever spoke a different language from the one the Lemur used. I rather question why I went to all this effort just to say that... :sweatdrop:
- Lemur and Kran of course speak the common language, and therefore do not require much in the way of a language project, though I must note the Lemur have inherited a set of symbols used to write their language from the Xacha, but no mention is made on whether Kran use the same symbols or not.
As for this, Migg, while you're certaainly not wrong by any means, you do seem to be neglecting (or at least not clearly stating), that all the races speak the common language. Behold, more lore! (this from the "Race History in Yliakum" segment of the Ylian race page):
442 AY - Truvar created the "Edict of One Language" to spread a common language amongst the races. The adoption will take about 100 years.
Source: https://www.planeshift.it/Ylians (https://www.planeshift.it/Ylians)
In other words, it took around 100 cycles, but it's been quite a long time (given that I believe the current cycle is supposed to be 750 AY or such), since the One Language ("Common") was fully adopted. Further, if we look at the Klyros language project wiki, we find the following:
All modern historians agree that like other languages, Old Klyran lost its positions after formation of the Octarchy and the degree of 451 AY. Since that time Common language was spreading rapidly and in just few decades made Klyran a dead language. The process is believed to have been completed in 530-540 AY. At least the last known book written in Klyran was written in 511 AY and a book that describes Klyros villages of 540s in first and second levels claims even elder Klyros didn't use Klyran.
This seems to state that with the adoption of the Edict of One Language leading to Common becoming essentially the only language in use, Klyran (along with other languages), became dead. Thus, the rekindling of racial languages can be assumed to be a very recent thing, as reinforced by these excerpts (from the same place as the one directly above):
And the last, third layer of Klyran emerged only few decades ago when number of enthusiasts began their efforts in restoring the language. As there were no native speakers left to the moment, the last layer, Modern Klyran, is definitely the closest one to the Common, especially in terms of grammar.
Number of factors enfueled the process of relearning the language by Klyros. Lack of farming lands for more and more growning population, rogue raids on roads resulting into problems with supply lines, natural disasters like the Ojavedan Plague - all these problems that the Octarchy failed to solve effectively. The Octarchy started to lose the trust and multicultural integration process not only stopped but even went in reverse direction. More and more people started looking answers for thier lives in ancient racial cultures including languages.
Source: http://planeshift.top-ix.org/pswiki/index.php/Klyros_Language#History (http://planeshift.top-ix.org/pswiki/index.php/Klyros_Language#History)
Of course, in grand PlaneShift tradition, the available lore seems to contradict itself: that is to say, despite indications of there being an "old language" of the Lemur and/or Kran, the General Language Notes on the PSWiki says this:
Lemur/Kran is the Common tongue used in modern times, and as such, will not have its own language.
Kran and Lemur languages are virtually identical. The reason for this is the nature of their creation by the Gods, and that they were only created 10 years apart. They then existed 300 years side by side, for the most part, negating the need for any deviation in speech. Some people say that this Lemur/Kran language is the Language of the Gods, and cite that as one of the main reasons it became the only language commonly used after the Temples were built.
All other languages fell into disuse after formation of the Octarchy and the decree of 451 AY. To the end of 5th century no racial languages were used except the Common.
However in last decades linguists and historians have made an attempt to resurrect the lost race languages. Their attempts were supported by number of racial groups within Ylaikum society, that desired to re-establish old racial cultures.
Source: http://planeshift.top-ix.org/pswiki/index.php/General_Language_notes (http://planeshift.top-ix.org/pswiki/index.php/General_Language_notes)
Also seemingly contradicting this, and in favor of there having been an "old" (or perhaps merely disused? magical?) language of the Lemur and/or Kran prior to the establishment of Common, is the following (which, bit of a Spoiler Alert I suppose, comes from one of the first of the Laanx religion quests available in-game):
(21:35:44) [NPC] Jayose says: It's surely some magical language.
(21:35:44) [NPC] Jayose says: I remember reading about a similar one in one of these books...
(21:35:44) [NPC] Jayose says: I will search for it.
(21:35:44) [NPC] Jayose moves into the library and starts searching the shelves. After a few minutes, he returns holding a book.
(21:35:44) [NPC] Jayose says: I've found it!
(21:35:44) [NPC] Jayose says: It's related to Laanx mythology.
(21:35:44) [NPC] Jayose says: This book says that the phrase 'Herta Feer Garad' was written on a few monuments in the legendary Kadaikos and means: 'light forms shadow'.
(21:35:44) [NPC] Jayose says: You can give those words to the person that asked for the translation.
Although, speaking of the Laanx religion, that brings me to this, which I've always felt deserves to be expanded upon more (source being "The Five Branches of Laanx", a book that can be found in Jayose's Library):
Laanx followers are expected to know the complex number system and language by a very early age, and be well versed in the teachings of Laanx.
To me, this seems to imply that there's some separate language and number system in use by those in the Laanx religion, one which is separate from Common -- otherwise, why would it be specifically called out in an information text as something followers are expected to know, considering that Common is considered the default and obvious language? That, then, would seem to contradict the General Language Notes assertion that, I quote again, "Some people say that this Lemur/Kran language is the Language of the Gods, and cite that as one of the main reasons it became the only language commonly used after the Temples were built."
And it would seem that in my grand tradition, this post turned out long and rambling. :oops:
All that said, though, I'm very excited to see if these languages get expanded upon more!
A TL;DR because I got excited about lore-stuffs and rambled:
- It seems like the Lemur and Kran both had essentially the same language to start, and any gaps were bridged due to their time together
- While it's unclear whether or not this is truly the case, Common might actually be separate from the original/"old" Lemur/Kran language
(I feel like it makes more sense that it's separate, but I'm just a player, so...) - It seems the old racial languages (aside from that of the Lemur/Kran) were lost due to the adoption of the Edict of One Language, which led Common to become the standard/only used language
- A movement to reclaim the old racial languages seems to have started very recently (within approximately a few decades of current setting time)
- There is some sort of Laanx religion-specific language & number system, presumably separate from Common, that has very little information on it
- Tidebringer is definitely excited about the prospect of the language lore potentially being expanded upon
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Excellent post, that was the kind of discussion I was hoping to elicit! As for the issues raised, here are my inexpert (and totally deprived of any references) ideas on the subject:
- I believe the common language would have naturally evolved as the common form of communication, at least in spoken form, since the two races (Kran and Lemur) were created together and appear to have been given their language, rather than having to evolve one. Had there been a need to evolve a language however, I would be willing to argue their common history would ensure they would evolve a common language, and would only deviate in the writing system if their physical form was different enough to make it impossible for them to use tools that would allow them a common writing system. My gut feeling is that this is not the case either.
- I would be willing to argue (again with no backing by any references to existing lore) that the Old Language was one that was separately evolved later in Kadaikos, after the long separation of the Lemur who followed Laanx in the Labyrinth. It would only seem natural for them to seek ways to differentiate their culture as one exclusively devoted to Laanx, and remove any traces of an affinity to Talad. References to that as the Old Language seem to contradict the idea, but as is the way with history, the Common language could be easily forgotten in favor of their own language, which became the "Old Language" when the Octarchy reinstated Common as the sole language in use across Yliacum. To the generations living the change, the language they had to abandon would be the Old Language, as by that time they lacked any recollection of it being their original system of communication.
So I would be willing to argue that it makes sense that the Old Language is the Laanx Religion specific language and number system, that it is explicitly specific to the Lemur and unrelated to the Kran, that it evolved in separation in Kadaikos and that, while refered to as "Old", it is really newer than common and only bears the name because the Lemur chose to eradicate all memory of what united them with Talad and the Kran while in exile, and hence chose to pass no record of their shared language to subsequent generations, for which the Common Language would indeed be a new language.
I certainly admit I have no references to back up my assertions, it is only what makes sense to me as a viable way to explain all the references you mentioned. What I must also note is that this seems to necessitate the creation of yet another language project, that of the Old Language.