PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: druke on July 13, 2003, 07:53:10 pm
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Greetings, Druke here.
I have been putting a thought together and am thinking of moving it to the official request board.
Circle magic-multiple Casters coming together and casting a spell.
For every member the difficulty to resist a spell would heigten and if it were a dmg type spell it would be aplified.
example- A Collosal Pit Fiend appears in the Plaza, the arcane order council, being the most powerful mages in the land :P .We all gather in a circle around avenger, the mage of red, being the most powerful offensive mage. we all go into a meditive state giving avenf=ger our magic power (mp) and fuling him, he is smart enough not to jsut throw a fireball at the demon with his fire resistance ;) so he creats a sonic shockwave that shoots towards the fiend, but instead of being his single meager wave it is plified, causing the ground to temble, and shingles to fall, the wave creates such a vibration that when it strikes its target it shatter all his bones stunning him while avenger switches with longraider seeing as how his lightning abilites are geater and able to cause more damage to the flame protected demon. Once again the gather except aroun longraider, the clouds darken and a massive thuderbolt zaps the weakend fiend to ashes.
non combat exampl-Tepsu needs to see something on another plane, hi power however wont allow it, he calls upon his fellow council members and they gather around tepsu, his aquatic eyes go completely blue and his scrying spell manifests in his large crystal ball. He is able o pass al the wards with his hietend abilities.
now there would have to be limits or this could happen-
Druke Suspends apprentice noname for bad behavior well he et angry and sees it nescisary to get revenge so noname gets the school classes to gather round him, the 50 people all lend noname strength and he launches a massive firball, incenerating the school and all the teachers.
since no detail have been released on magic X( this may not work but i\'ll try to fix up anytthing on this file and if people think its good i\'ll move it too the official board
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Errr actually someone just posted pretty much the same idea in the \"Combo Magic\" thread...
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Aye thats what gave me this idea, but if you read its quite different, my idea is a single spell raised in save difficulty and heiten damage if a damage type and greaer ability to pass wards, the \"combo magic\" was noithing but conscutive spell casting of the same elemental type for a purley damaging type scenerio
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Errrr yeah, your right, that\'s actually the idea that I posted in the thread... so I\'m kinda right too, oh well, whatever.
And your description remind me of that time when the Jedi Academy recruits all channeled their force powers through that one clone guy to throw back a whole Imperial Fleet. Hmmm, except that guy died, so maybe it\'s not a good idea to use a person as a focal point and just make the focal point the target area or enemy of the spell.
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Since I\'m planning on being a wizard myself, I like this idea. It\'s kinda like passing a fireball around in a circle, and as you pass it, it gets bigger. I\'d rather have the focal point an object or area though, as wedge suggested. All the mages would gather in a circle and chant perhaps, and in the center all thier energy would be drawn together, and collectively they would decide where it goes.
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Sounds good to me...
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Yea, I really like the idea of strenght in numbers. It would give a reason for wizards to form clans together and stick together.
Edit: Spellong
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its not like there isn\'t a good mage guild :O
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I know that, but it would get more people to join your guild.
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Yeah but don\'t restrict this to just mage classes! Warrior classes should be able to initiate synchronized attacks and mages and warriors could combine skills for enchanted attacks!
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Originally posted by Wedge
Yeah but don\'t restrict this to just mage classes! Warrior classes should be able to initiate synchronized attacks and mages and warriors could combine skills for enchanted attacks!
If you read my thread, you would\'ve seen that I also put that in. Combo blows and Magic+psychical combos.
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I love this idea. would make coop playin much more interesting. Depending on the xp sharing system though
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Originally posted by Davewaveman
If you read my thread, you would\'ve seen that I also put that in. Combo blows and Magic+psychical combos.
Incorrect. You suggested being able to chain attacks into combos, which would add a damage bonus. I\'m suggesting being able to synchronize attacks for a single massive attack; which is also what I said in your thread. I think it\'s better that way since doing a combo attack doesn\'t really seem like it takes much coordination, just everyone attacks and it would happen. For a synchronized attack though everyone would have to prep for it together before it would be launched, like you would actually have to select a command to do a team attack. Seems a more teamly thing to do, and just has more potential for looking cool. Also it could be more readily applied to things other than a direct attack, like mages combining spells to heal a group more effectively.
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Combo attacks for warriors are nice, but in actual combat most combo attacks would be defencive: such as two people fighting back to back to defend each others\' blindspots... so for the warriors instead of that, what about a list of war cries to buff themselves and their comrades - it would have to be a \'helluva\' buff though to balance your circle magic idea.
PS - I love the idea though Druke; there are just some balance issues. For more details on such party skills check one of my posts here:
http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=4702&boardid=11&styleid=3&sid=0a01d6cd9e8485fc6632651a1f445c96
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Circle Magic is a wonderful [and so far, unique] idea (not mentioned by others in their combo posts).
Another use for Circle Magic that I didn\'t see mentioned could be for summoning. It would be great if there was something that could only be summoned by a group of qualified mages.
or perhaps there is a great door somewhere that can only be opened through group concentration.
maybe teleportation, or revival of the dead, or party levitation, or beast charming, or party healing (as mentioned)? powerful magic requires several mages to cast.
and also some spells could REQUIRE several mages, and other spells could simply benefit from several mages (like the fireball).
the possibilities are endless. excellent post! :))
[edit] to clarify, I too do not like the idea of empowering one person. the focus should never be on a single character (with some exceptions), but on a goal, as in the examples mentioned.
Originally posted by Antity
I love this idea. would make coop playin much more interesting. Depending on the xp sharing system though
I believe, the more player interaction there is, the more interesting the game will be. This is a feature that could definitely improve the fun factor.
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Interesting idea, but I see a problem with this. For combat magic, anyway.
No monster would allow itself to actually be surrounded, and if it werre, would go on a killing rampage. Unless the mosnter were either sleeping, paralysed, unoconscious, superbly arrogant, and so on, anyway. Or there was a method of distracting, but the \'distracting item\' may be destroyed along with the monster.
However, out of combat, Circle Magic whould be a fascinating concept. It will, however, force shy people who aren\'t that great at walking around, talking animatedly to random others, to get out of their shyness. Still, as this is a MMORPG, this is unlikely, but it can happen. Some may view this as good; others, bad. And when I think of a circle, I am thinking of ten or so mages, and of course, in a circle. If there are no nearby threats, the problem would be gathering mages. Especially if you\'re not in a guild and don\'t want to be in one, for various reasons.
I like this idea, but there are the factors of balance to be controlled. The balance issues mainly being mages becoming too powerful. Drilixers thread does this well for warrior and rogue-type characters, but why not use this in other jobs as well? Of course, this thread is based mainly on magic, so I\'ll leave things off there. I\'m rambling on and on again...
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Errr yeah, the mages would be vulnerable when casting such a spell, and that\'s why it would still be a good idea for them to drag a couple punching bags--- I mean warriors to distract the monsters in the meantime. Which would also bring up an interesting point as to whether or not such spells could hit your own party members!? And I don\'t think something like this would make mages too powerful, since it would also use much more magik then just casting a regular spell, you couldn\'t go through a dungeon and use it on every enemy, just try and save up enough mana to use it on a boss type creature. They would probably have a period of weakness after casting such a spell that would cause a %-based cut in stats for a certain period of time.
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Originally posted by Wedge
Which would also bring up an interesting point as to whether or not such spells could hit your own party members!?
Don\'t worry aout hitting your own party members - the devs wouldnt make a loophole for PKs (especially not one that powerful)
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Originally posted by Wormtail_
I like this idea, but there are the factors of balance to be controlled. The balance issues mainly being mages becoming too powerful.
this is not really an issue, in fact depending on how it is implemented circle magic may serve to reduce the power of the mages because it takes away the ability of a single mage to cast powerful spells.
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Abemore has a point - perhaps instead of making it so that all magic can be \'Circle Magic\' a new \'Spell School\' could be added for Group Magic - that way a character would have to use skill points invested in \'circle magic\' to properly work together with other mages -> But the devs would have to be careful balanceing so as not to form a circle magic cookie cutter build
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i have an idea how it would work, a normal exp party would be a group but a grp limited to like 6 poepl, maybe an alternate group option for mage types onlyan alternate group (called a circle) the circle elects one leader (the circle crator) after that the mages gather none more than 5 foot from eachouther and each standin still if they move the cicrle looses there bonus, while a circle leader is casting he draws form all other tap on the azure shard and thus empowerts his spell, a mage can elect not to give his power to the leader by mearly disbanding from the circle
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og corse there would be no exp for a crcle, its more a rare event or special need occasion
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The Circle Magic idea is good. I am also of the opinion that the balance problem can easily be solved by restricting circle magic to a limited number of high level spells that need the cooperation of between 3 - 6 mages each of a differnt one of the 6 magical ways.
It would mean that you would need multiple, highly experienced, mages who are also from more than one school of magic. That combination will not come about quickly or easily!
Also the idea of a circle magic spell significantly draining mage mana for a rather lenghty time means that the mages are comparatively weak after the casting of a Circle magic spell and would need other types of players or yet more mages to protect them.
In this way circle magic will not be used for any little combat operation but rather for well planned, coordinated quests where a specific magic circle spell(s) are required to complete the quest.
Done that way it would make for a really nice element to the game without the balance issue coming up.
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Why don\'t we do this like in the fantasy series The Wheel of Time where circles can be formed among wizards but their are restrictions implied as follows:
1. Circles are very sexist... circles can reach 3-6 FEMALE mages max without MALE help. From there the addition of 1 MALE mage doubles the number of female mages possible. Adding another male mage would add another 3-6 possible female mages who can \'join\' the circle.
2. Balancing act - there can never be more male mages than female mages in a circle.
There are many other restrictions possible but I\'d rather get some response before posting them :P
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i don\'t know bout the whole sexist idea,
but perhaps for balancing issues, all mages had to be above a certain skill to do it, and all amges have to have some skill in the desired shade
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hey
I think maybe a guy would start a group spell, and it takes a certain time to load up (like 15 sec.) In that time the mage would be harmless and the mages that are around him can do a support spell, so the spell gains in power, thus the more mages, the more powerfull the spell. off course there should be a max for example based on the spellcasters level. The higher the level, the more support it can receive.
When the spell is cast, all the mages that participated in the spell would lose a lot of cast points. But if the main mage gets killed in the mean time, nobody would lose spell points
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I think something like this would be an essential part of magics, in summoning creatures, normal offensive spells, defense spells, whatever. This way you could have a lot stronger spells then usually would be possible, however there would be major risks to casting powerful spells like this. If you send to much power to the person/object that has to do the most important thing he/she/it could die or worse. Also, doing something like this would require massive amounts of mana, so you can\'t do this very often.
Here\'s a screenshot from naruto where they summon some kind of big snake with this circle magic:
(http://www.arcaneorder.com/images/summon.jpg)
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I think it\'ll be used a lot for enchantement, peaceful magic and summoning. But this will probably be too slow to be used in battle imho.
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A little more information on the WoT series and \"linking.\"
Only female \"Aes Sedai\"(channelers) can link, and males cannot. Females can only link up to 13 Aes Sedai; beyond that, males are needed to extend the circle. While linking, there is one leader that guides the channeling of all the linked channelers combined.
Using \"Circle Magic\" in battle is feasible, in my opinion. Mages, i think, generally hang around at the back, providing support for the front. Therefore, the mages could \"link\" and create a powerful weapon to unleash.
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I think the idea of a sexist magic ring is a bit hard to realise, there are way more people playing a male character then there are female, and I generally think that it shouldn\'t matter if you\'re a guy or a girl when playing a game. This idea makes the difference between male and female a bit to big IMHO.
You can always use the circles in large scaled wars, but not so much in small battles I think. IMO it would cost a lot(maybe even all) mana, so it\'s only good for 1 attack/summon, not to just use ll the time. I see how something like this would be used to make some kind of large magical defense wall around a small city, summon some kind of really powerful creature, or casting one really powerful spell.
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Originally posted by Wormtail_
A little more information on the WoT series and \"linking.\"
Only female \"Aes Sedai\"(channelers) can link, and males cannot.
Males CAN link. Well, they can -be- linked, anyway. A female is needed to do that.
:P
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If you want to create a circle, have warriors to protect the mages during the sorcery (don\'t tell me such a spell is cast in less than 5 seconds), you need probably a lot of people. This is no longer a group, this is an army :P
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Well, males can link, but there must be one more female in the circle than the males at any time. Well, always a female, 2 if a male is linked. (source - The World of Robert Jordan\'s Wheel of Time ) :P
I think the idea of a sexist magic ring is a bit hard to realise, there are way more people playing a male character then there are female, and I generally think that it shouldn\'t matter if you\'re a guy or a girl when playing a game. This idea makes the difference between male and female a bit to big IMHO.
I was merely posting an example of how linking was done in an 11 book (and still more to come) series. Perhaps a restraint on certain races linking could be used. There may be some races who are more used to working in groups, and others who just want to stay out of linking altogether, but can link in smaller groups. This would have to be based off the storyline.
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Yeah, it might be pretty hard to make a magic circle containing a few krans and dwarfes :P
Maybe you could do something like this with the 2 human and 2 elven races. For example, you can\'t make a ring with just Ylians, you need the same amount of Xacha aswell. This would go for Dermorians/Nolthrir too. Races like Kran/Dwarfes should be pretty restricted in joining a magic ring, maybe only one of this race can be in a ring. Lemurs and Diaboli however would be able to make rings without needing any other races. for Enkidukai, Klyros and Ynnwn there would be other specific rules since they aren\'t really magic based but don\'t completely suck in it either..
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an alternative would be that 2 or mages could link and their mage skill is averaged for the linked spells but their mana combined
in this way a powerfull mage could help out a less powerfull comrade.. meaning he couldnt cast to his full capability but the lesser mage could cast beyond his ability
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I *heart* the idea of Circle Magic because it makes mages more powerful and connects the magical community. It also balances out becuase being a lone mage can be sometimes difficult. I think however the Mage/Warrior Combo attacks arent such a good idea, because it may get confusing, but thats just me. I also agree with having risks, because having a huge order of 350 Uber-Mages in a circle may create unfair advantages. I like the idea of consequences and maybe even having the spell backfire.
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Maybe if the energy if being focused to one specific person they can have too much power and light and energy vents out of their mouth and eyes as they let out a demonic scream and explode, killing everyone in the circle. This kind of act would most likely leave the mages involved paralyzed and drain of all energy which would bring the dangers of a simple beast sneaking up behind and killing them.
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Wouldnt this give mages too much power over archers, knights, ect
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No it wouldn\'t because it most games the mages have a disadvantage, and with risks, it balances it even more.
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Hehe, The title had me immediately thinking of The Wheel of Time :D.
There needs to be risk though to such a potentially awesome spell. The bigger the circle the more powerful and risker, also harder to cast and more mana required.
Perhaps risk could be that every member of the circle tries to pass their spell casting to allow the lead/focal mage a better chance in cast the spell.
Something like :
- The focal is the first one to start the circle.
- The focal links to another who accepts the link.
- This continues with links forming until the last link is back with the focal.
- The first link after the focal casts the spell then the next and so forth with the last caster being the focal.
- If someone fails they suffer a manaburn or whatever and are damaged (most likely fatal).
- Death in the ring is bad and the dead mage is removed the two it was linked two are now linked and suffer some transferance damage (this allows for a casscading effect and heightens the risk).
- The final chance of the spell is left to the focal/leader as it checks to succeed modified by the rest of the mages success.
- Failure now loses the spell and results in a manaburn (larger?) with transference damage to the first and last link. After the focal is removed, either the circle is broken or the first link takes over? not sure...
- The best way I can see it is the chance for the focal to succeed is only modified positively, make a spell impossible for one to cast but every successful link reduces the difficulty by an ammount until it is possible.
I hope that was understandable. I don\'t know anything about the magic implementation, this may be a laughable approach. It may sound complex its would most likely be simple in play requiring practice and paitence, I guess a nightmare to implement though.
One thing to note, if your worried about the power of the ring and your an archer.... just kill the focal to stop the spell or hit one of the weaker scrawny looking mages you may kill them all.
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I like the linking idea, its great. So is the death of a mage and mana burn. I think though that a defensive or a non combat spell should have lesser risk than an offensive. Just a thought.
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Hm... I was havnig a similar idea before I found this post. I have been thinking a lot about combined forces, but not just limited to mage, but can also include other combination such as swordman and mage (think Chrono Trigger).
I suggest a system where the circle/combo can consist up to 2-6 players. Also it\'s hard to get all into position, so here\'s my suggestiong on how initiating a circle will go, broken down into steps.
1. A player takes a glance at a list, which list the circle/combo that the player can initiate and complete with others. Note that the list only display spells that can be completed by party members nearby. If a party member is too far away, a spell that needs that member won\'t appear on the list.
2. A player select the spell and activate it. A notice will send out to all players that will need to be involved. If more then one player can fulfill the circle/combo\'s requirement, both of them will receive a notice. A circle also appear on the ground that indicate how close the required players needed to be for the circle/combo to activate.
3. The players receiving the notice has a set time limit to move into the circle and trigger the it by clicking on the notice (15 seconds or something) before the circle/combo dissolve. If two players can fulfill a requirement that only require one. The player that first respond by entering the circle and trigger the notice is the one that will be in the circle.
4. When, within the time limit, the requirement is met, the circle is triggered.
A player can only trigger a circle once. And the players that assist in activating that circle will not be able to initiate their own for 30 seconds. Also circle initiator will bear a larger portion of the spell cost then other assistance.
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Magicians joining their powers together is a common feature in many fantasy books, so why not in a game? It is simply a great idea! The only downside I can think of is that it would make mages so cool that the amount of non-mages may shrink, even if equally advanced features would be available to all sorts of fighters. I don\'t know what others think but mages are already so much cooler than everything else in most games and I don\'t expect Planeshift to be an exception. However, I would greatly love circle magic.
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do u have to be in the same party to use, or can 2 partys all join in the cricle spell (how big can a party be in ps)?
if the spell fails dose the whole party share the dmg? or the last person to cast it?
If someone is hit while casting dose it distract them enought for it to fail or do they take more dmg?
i think that if your are meditating on a spell you are less prepared to block.
for non magice classes could there be a life share skill or something?
that could be use in a similer way to make it more fair?
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To Lardhoc: The problem with mage being too popular is the reason why I say some circles would require non-magic users \'s skill. In this case the mage provides the power and the fighters redirect those power in ways most effcient to them.
To SirTokesalot: I don\'t think it would be easy for 2 partys to try to fulfill each other\'s spells, so I think a circle spell is limited to one party. I\'m not sure how big a party will be in PS, but I\'ll take a wild guess of 4~6.
If the spell fail, the initiator will take the majority of the negative effect while the assistors will receive only a fraction. And if an assisstor is hit while casting a concentation check could be made to see if he/she loses the spell.
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Nice idea Druke! ;) Like you said there could be a person leading the spell. I believe that the power of this person could decide how many people can join and if too many people join in he cannot handle the power and dies. I also think it could be cool if he dies when succeeding, since that would compensate for the great power of the spell.
just a thought
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Hum, howzabout this...
One mage from each way of magic can join the circle, however, only two are needed for the most basic combination spells.
Each way will take up a \'slot\' on a magical balance diagram thingy that can be left up to whoever it\'s left up to. xD
Each slot has a given position in the circle, ie bottom left, left, upper left, so on...
A mage can only channel his power with a mage of a slot adjescent to him.
For instance, a, eh, fire mage couldn\'t channel energy to water mage. He would instead send it to, say, a light mage, who would send it to an air mage, who would send it to the water mage.
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I love this idea, for it\'s a really common thing in most non-game universes, and only lacks rules for it\'s use ingame.
I\'m not going to dive too deeply into combinations and other rather obscure things, but there obviously need to be some restrictions. However, most of the ones I envision haven\'t been brought up yet, so here they are:
The ring can be made up of any number of mages and any combination, any races, any alignment and any experience level, but:
1) Each member of the ring increases the difficulty to co-ordinate the powers, just like large groups of ppl. are less easy to co-ordinate than smaller ones
2) The experience levels of the mages involved have a great impact. This means that a circle of 100 highly experienced mages is more easily controlled than one of 100 newbie mages. Also, each mage will need to succeed in the controlling and the co-ordination, and dependant on the power required for the spell, the complexity of the ring (adding all modifiers together, like size, etc.), this may be very difficult for a newbie mage. Because every mage will need to be successful, the number of low level mages in the high power circle will greatly reduce it\'s chances of success. The difference in knowledge can also add to overall complexity.
3) The ways the participating mages are proficient in will influence the complexity. Having water and fire co-operate will be more difficult than only water, or white and dark, or whatever. This will also apply to the spell being cast, and even more so to the mage casting the spell / controlling the circle, because anyone who doesn\'t \"fit in\" right will be
harder to co-ordinate (the fire mage co-ordinating two fire and one water mage will have problems with the water mage, but not so much with the two fire mages, as they are more \"comprehensible\" ).
4) The alignment of the mages can add to complexity. While they might have a common goal, the level of trust is important for effectively joining forces, because everyone needs to give up certain safeguards in order to share / receive power. Therefore, if there is one \"evil\" mage in the circle of \"good\" mages, they are likely to instinctively raise barriers against each other due to lack of trust, reducing the chances of successful co-ordination.
Also, the power of a dark way mage might just \"feel\" bad / wrong to the white way mage, or vice versa, even if it\'s just subjective and has no reason other than imagination.
5) Of course, a mage who is used to circle magic will be able to participate more easily, while one who may know much and be powerful but has never done this before will have difficulty participating and, at the same time, create co-ordination problems for the rest who need to compensate for the lack of experience and the added wildcards.
6) there should be absolutely no sexist restriction in it, because it doesn\'t have any place in there. After all, the WoT magic has been \"contaminated\", but the PS magic hasn\'t. Also, it\'s not good in terms of RL problems, which just shouldn\'t exist in the game world.
7) While it might, at first glance, seem reasonable to add problems with certain races, this is also a bad thing and will solve itself automatically due to the restrictions 1 - 5. A Kran will not reach the same level as a Human, therefore it\'ll be harder to integrate them anyway, no \"racism\" required.
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Originally posted by PlaneWalker
To Lardhoc: The problem with mage being too popular is the reason why I say some circles would require non-magic users \'s skill. In this case the mage provides the power and the fighters redirect those power in ways most effcient to them.
Well, a group of mages could pour all their power into a warrior\'s sword, greatley enhancing its attack power. But that\'s only one warrior and several mages. I think it would seem silly if more than one non-mage were given the support of the magecircle. What\'s the meaning of joining your powers together for the purpose of splittig the combined power?
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I think that by linking together the mages will lose power. I mean that 10 equally powerful mages linked together would act as one say 7 times as powerful mage. This would come to their advantage anyway because they can cast 7 times as powerful protective spells on allies or maybe easier break through the spell-resistance of more powerful monsters by casting one more powerful spell instead of 10 less powerful spells that is easiliy resisted. Just some thoughts... What do you think?
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could you restate that? i am confused
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I think he means that there should be \"transission losses\", probably due to the co-ordination and channeling effort, but that, due to the increased power, there will of course still be a benefit (that\'s thee whole point of the circle :) ).
The central concept here seems to be that the circle would become a \"virtual mage\", with a \"virtual level\", and thus function like one simgle mage of very high level (something like pow(number of mages)*0.7), thus allowing it to cast spells that are way more powerful than each mage could cast based on their level, not just their power.
At least that is how I read it.
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Originally posted by Seytra
I think he means that there should be \"transission losses\", probably due to the co-ordination and channeling effort, but that, due to the increased power, there will of course still be a benefit (that\'s thee whole point of the circle :) ).
The central concept here seems to be that the circle would become a \"virtual mage\", with a \"virtual level\", and thus function like one simgle mage of very high level (something like pow(number of mages)*0.7), thus allowing it to cast spells that are way more powerful than each mage could cast based on their level, not just their power.
At least that is how I read it.
Thank you Seytra, that\'s exactly what I meant, and sorry Druke....