PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Drilixer on July 25, 2003, 05:40:34 pm
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There are not going to be Player levels in Planeshift I believe... If that\'s the case isn\'t there a problem with the whole idea of the current \'duel\' but no pking system? How would a new character EVER know how strong another character that challenges him is if there are no levels? Higher \'skill\' characters at this point would look pretty much the same as new characters if people are unable to see the clothes they are wearing and stuff. So I think alot of new characters would unknowingly accept duels with Uber-characters and the Links out there...
I posted this in Wish List forum since the problem is inevitably not the dueling system but the level system and the inability to gage your power in comparison with someone else\'s. Replies Please.
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i thought about the same problem some time ago and thought that having the apearance show how experienced you are (probably using standard exp. if there will be some, or calculate it from all the skill levels) ...my idea was that the more experienced you are the older you\'d look ...but the idea didn\'t pass through :( ...so i\'d still think in somewhat the same way, but with a different indicator
...maybe in the library a book with all the players listed with skills above some level.... or something like that
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Only problem then is that you would have duelists hanging all over the library - we agree that there needs to be some way to refernce people\'s levels: the only two ways that I can imagine are experience and total number of allocated skill points. But then there is the problem of where this information will be displayed on a character... what about when you target something that information is given to you in the little target window
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What about showing their names with different colors to depict their skill level vs. yours? Red or purple could mean that they\'re too powerful to duel. Yellow or white could mean that they\'re about the same. Green could mean they\'re too weak. It could accompany this with a little phrase in the buffer like \"This character would have an advantage in a duel\" or \"This character is too strong for you!\" This would also be helpful in forming groups.
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sounds alot like Neverwinter Nights System, I never really liked that one but it could have just been my general dislike for NWN
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Problem is, with a skill based system determining strength, it would really have to take into account where the skills are allocated and match those up. Because if someone had skills strong against someone elses weakness, but they had overall less skill points, they could still stand a chance. I think it really shouldn\'t say anything though. Maybe there could be a scouting ability that would let you see someone elses strength, but otherwise going in to try and fight someone you have no idea about usually is a bad idea.
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thats an idea - you could run a spot check and if succesful you would see their stats (not their skills just strength intelligence etc etc)
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Why don\'t you just make it so you can right click them and see stats as an option?That would make it easy.
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no, no, no. you cant see the stats of anyone. thats crazy.
you can however take a look at that players weapons and gear. If they have a glowing sword, and yours is made of wood, its probably not a good idea to challenge them.
also there should be different type of dueling. dueling to the death should not always be everyones first choice. there should be dueling for honor, gold, or an agreed prize of some sort. and there should be an option for nonlethal dueling so\'s people dont go getting themselves killed.
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The easiest way would be to show the character\'s age (in the game). I mean, to show the netto time the Char was playing. This way you can determine how strong or weak the char is.
Just show such a line:
An adventurer since: 3 days (baby char)
And here I mean 3 game days and not 3 calendar days ;)
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Originally posted by no_dammagE
The easiest way would be to show the character\'s age (in the game). I mean, to show the netto time the Char was playing. This way you can determine how strong or weak the char is.
Just show such a line:
An adventurer since: 3 days (baby char)
And here I mean 3 game days and not 3 calendar days ;)
What if they don\'t spend a lot of time improving their skills in game? That could be very misleading. But, it\'s a good start. Maybe it could keep track of how much time they had actually spent upping their skills, eh? That would work.
But I really don\'t see what\'s wrong with right clicking and getting stats like Captain said. What would be \"crazy\" about it? Would an anonymity setting fix the craziness?
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i don\'t know why i said that. its really not crazy. it could work, but if it were done this way, no one could ever pretend to be lesser skilled than they really were (except in your anonymity scenario). If may be fun to wear cloth armor and carry a wooden sword to see who picks on you. Then you can unleash the fury.
...or not...whatever.
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im sorry i like this game alot and hope for it to be really good but if there isnt gonna be lvling theres no point of putting monsters in the game i dont think ill like it too long without lvls ....
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Yeah, no point in putting monsters in the game. Because if there\'s no levels, there\'s no progression. Right? Wrong. Fighting enemies will still give you experience. It\'s just that instead of lumping all your experience together and giving you a massive boost once it reaches a certain amount, it gives you experience in certain skills based on what you do. It\'s the difference between a level-based system, and a skill-based system. PS is skill-based. I don\'t see why that wouldn\'t appeal to anyone at least the same as levels, but to each his own I guess. Personally, I think without levels, you don\'t have levelling (like you said) and that\'s a good thing in my book because it means more actually PLAYING instead of mindlessly pulling ad nauseum.
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I agree with Ravencrowe. It doesn\'t really make any sense just having everything affect overall experience and suddenly become really good in something you never even practice. Lets stick with the saying \'Practive makes perfect.\' Even if there is no such thing as perfect, you still get better. Levels simply mean the overall skills, and can be very misleading too. In That Game, for example, people are playing as \'Pures,\' only training in strength and end up killing things 5 times their own level. So levels don\'t really mean much to me.
I like the ability to check on other players statitstics. While the idea of just having to right-click on a player to check their stats is pretty good, but I also agree with introducing trickery and deception in. Of course, it\'s not \'nice,\' but it does create some interesting results. Perhaps, like Wedge said, there could be an independent ability to check up on the stats of the player as well as monsters. However, there could also be a trickery option to decieve others, but I\'m not sure how that will work. Should it be an independent skills with other options? Sould it be part of an existing skill? Should the scoutign ability have more advantages than just checking on the stats of a player or monster? Will anyone actaully answer these questions?
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I\'ve been thinking about it, and a scout skill should be something that you would really have to put some skill points in to for it to work right. The better you are at the skill, the more information you can reveal about a person. Since I think it would be real cool if the game had a bit of an espionage involved, making information a commodity is an element I haven\'t really seen in any game before, yet is a very logical thing to have. Also perhaps a listening skill that lets you hear someones /tell and /guild messages if you are nearby them, there could be spies in the game. I know that sounds like an invasion of privacy, but the devs seem to really want to promote a roleplaying atmosphere in the future, so you really shouldn\'t be discussing much that doesn\'t concern the game while in-game (obviously that isn\'t something that applies at this point in development of course).
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Originally posted by shangralah
im sorry i like this game alot and hope for it to be really good but if there isnt gonna be lvling theres no point of putting monsters in the game i dont think ill like it too long without lvls ....
you have to ignore shang sometimes. he says things without thinking.
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dungeon siege was more like diablo but improved the skills you used the most ; well in the end you had a level upgrade but it\'s was not that usefull
I like just what ravencrowe said, which was exactlyy that skill upgrading would stop hardcorse gamers, or spoilers to my opinion, to get in touch with you and say : hey i\'m 42 level and you, you poor 12 level !
I mean, it stops competition, it makes people wanna spend good time in the game ; like gta vice city, cause there you progressed in a world without always going further in the scenario, you just took your time as you wish
I want to take my time, enjoy the world, not run like hell for some points ; it\'s a game, not a contest ; skill developping goes this way ; )
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Originally posted by Abemore
Originally posted by shangralah
im sorry i like this game alot and hope for it to be really good but if there isnt gonna be lvling theres no point of putting monsters in the game i dont think ill like it too long without lvls ....
you have to ignore shang sometimes. he says things without thinking.
har har har!!!
another problem: Idon\'t like cookie-cutter character builds and scouting skill would be necessary for duelists... making dueling a little less original since everyone would inevitably get that skill (andmaybe even the anti-scouting skill) - but if such a skill were instead put in the form of scrolls that players with scrollmaking and scoutingcan make a player made market could be developped (which would always have the dueling communities support and give the guilds something to do beyond bickering :) )
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Ha ha ha ha ha ha youl\'d be making character sheets of the players, that seems so funny to me for some reason... OK wait now it doesn\'t. But yeah that\'s what I\'m saying, information should be an industry.
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the scouting scrolls should be a completely player made commidity so that we can even force the duelists to work together with the craftsmen and other players - what duelist in there right mind would substitute a good combat oriented skill for scouting when he can just buy a scouting scrolll froom his merchant friends?
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I for one think that everything should should upgrade when you use it, with most things building off of some simple actions. For example, with all items you could look at it to get a quick description, or examine to get all the details that your charactor can know. This however would take a whole minute of sitting there, doing nothing else, and everyone could tell you are doing it. Then, this would be expanded to players, so that you could look at some one to find out what there race is, and maybe which is there highest skill(without giving a value). Then, examining a player would give you alot more info, but they would be alerted that you are trying to examine them, and all they have to do is walk away before the minute is up, and you find out nothing. Or something like that.
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people often make the fallacious assumption that adding a timer to a skill will balance it - for spells and weapons this may be correct since damge/time is tantamount in combat - but out of combat such timers quickly become tedious. Anyonne who has ever played everquest remembers the timer inn shops when you wan to see an item\'s stats... caused some very long and tedious shopping trips. I doubt I am the only character who preferred to run around in newb gear or naked just because shopping was so slow.
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Wait, can\'t we use the \'Scout\' ability to examine the statistics of monsters, too? Otherwise, how would you know if something is too strong to go up against other than just looking at it? Which is, of course, not the best of ways to get an adequate measure of the power of something else.
As for the timer thingy, perhaps as time goes by, you get more descriptive information on the character. A quick glance will just tell you a quick glance\'s worth of informtaion, while a long study will give a long study\'s worth of information. I like the idea of getting better at a skill as you use it, as you are practicing the skill. Perhaps being more skilled at the \'Scout\' ability will have getting more accurate results and less time to find those facts out.
As for tedious shopping, I may have a way to make it less tedious. This would be for the stores to already have a description of each item near it. Therefore, the stores will be providing \'Customer Service\' while the customers in turn actually buy stuff from it, instead of going around naked or in newb gear.
More ramblings and rantings...
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is it just or would it be interesting if the \"consider ability\" was just not implemented, the only thing to your judgement is what you can se eon them. Alot of great books and movies have beenw ritten with things like that, if you were for say in a guild war you could have your guys disquise as part of Monkeths \"tradeing org.\" and sneak in, no conisders no name tags, or perhaps your consideration changes based on what you are wearing,
consider- to look at something and judge how powerfull something is based on what it looks like
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problem with that is - high level wizards would be running around naked challenging nOObs to duals and then utterly destroying them :P
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I think a \"consider\" command is necessary... or maybe not even a separate command; just look at a player/monster and it tells you how \"tough\" he/she/it appears. The heuristics for this would be pretty simple; lots of MUDs do it. It would, of course, be cool for players to have a \"sandbag\" ability to fool other players.
As to the problem of knowing who not to challenge to a duel, I assume there will be an option of dueling just for sport, without killing or property changing hands. If this is done (and the whole \"arena\" idea seems kind of silly otherwise), it just seems obvious to keep a persistent ranking table. So you\'ll know not to challenge guys with ranks way higher than yours, and if you do, all you\'ll get out of your severe thrashing is embarrased.
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Originally posted by Muzzle
I think a \"consider\" command is necessary... or maybe not even a separate command; just look at a player/monster and it tells you how \"tough\" he/she/it appears. The heuristics for this would be pretty simple; lots of MUDs do it. It would, of course, be cool for players to have a \"sandbag\" ability to fool other players.
As to the problem of knowing who not to challenge to a duel, I assume there will be an option of dueling just for sport, without killing or property changing hands. If this is done (and the whole \"arena\" idea seems kind of silly otherwise), it just seems obvious to keep a persistent ranking table. So you\'ll know not to challenge guys with ranks way higher than yours, and if you do, all you\'ll get out of your severe thrashing is embarrased.
I\'m afraid I got lost reading this thread - so i read it again - and got lost... you do understand that consentual PvP duals and guild fighting will be the only way to PvP in Planeshift right? That is not debateable in the slighest. The problem is that the duelists need some way to gage their strength versus the other persons and Planeshift doesn\'t have the ease of just telling levels like other games.
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... you do understand that consentual PvP duals and guild fighting will be the only way to PvP in Planeshift right? That is not debateable in the slighest.
Yes, that is exactly the premise I based my comments on. And I wouldn\'t want it any other way. Actually, I\'m even working off the possibly-incorrect premise that these duels (and BTW people, that\'s \"duel\" (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=duel), not \"dual\" (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dual)) will only be fought in some central arenas or whatnot, not just out in any old cave where two toughs stumble into each other. I\'m also assuming that it will be a choice to fight just for fun, or to show off, without grave consequences for the loser, and/or that some stats will be kept about who\'s the best fighter in the arenas. So just don\'t challenge people who are doing much better than you if you want a chance to win.
The problem is that the duelists need some way to gage their strength versus the other persons and Planeshift doesn\'t have the ease of just telling levels like other games.
And my point is that I don\'t really see how it will be a huge problem. Of course, I haven\'t seen much real information other than \"no free PvP\" and \"no levels\" (both commendable ideas IMO), so I might just be full of it.
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The problem is that the duelists need some way to gage their strength versus the other persons and Planeshift doesn\'t have the ease of just telling levels like other games.
And my point is that I don\'t really see how it will be a huge problem.
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Alright if you don\'t get it yet... lol - the problem is that we are trying to think of a way to minimize grief players tricking new players into fightng them and then destroying them - for example in most games new players are deathly afraid of fighting high level guys - we don\'t have that apprehension in this game to stop them from fighting the \'big guys\' inadvertantly
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Originally posted by Drilixer
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the problem is that we are trying to think of a way to minimize grief players tricking new players into fightng them and then destroying them - for example in most games new players are deathly afraid of fighting high level guys - we don\'t have that apprehension in this game to stop them from fighting the \'big guys\' inadvertantly
Ummm, I don\'t understand that problem either- you have to be challanged to a duel, and I am assumng it will be non leathel by default, so theres not much to be lost. And what is there for the other player to gain, anyways? Since there are no levels, you would have to get better at skills by doing something challanging, and trashing a newbie isn\'t very challanging. So whats the problem? :P
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*sigh*... the problem is in the actual challenge. How should a newb have any idea of who to dual and who not to dual (and I\'m going to spell it \'dual\' this entire thread since one of you corrected me :P ). I understand that there is little to be lost from duAling, but that doesn\'t change the fact that losing sucks and being kicked into the dirt sucks... and doing both at once sucks even more. Grief players could find it just as fun to pretend to be noobs, challenge them (since their is no way for other players to rate each other and know that they are about to be stomped), and then beat the noob\'s head against a wall.
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What if you could right click on someone and there would be an option that would say \"Consider Player\" and it would say like, \"This player is a minor Challenge\" or \"This player is a Major Challenge\"
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Originally posted by Matt Man
What if you could right click on someone and there would be an option that would say \"Consider Player\" and it would say like, \"This player is a minor Challenge\" or \"This player is a Major Challenge\"
that\'s the problem... there are no levels.. by what means could the computer say one character is a challenge or not
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Since the comp knows all, it wont show u thier stats, it looks at thier stats and judges, it doesnt give an exact judgement, it just gives a range
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there aren\'t levels as in you are a level 2 warrior. but there are skill levels. you can be highly skilled at certain kinds of combat or highly unskilled at certain kinds of combat. It should be possible to calculate the chances of your surviving a duel. It just depends on what the dev\'s want the game to do.
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Thats what i just said, it would give u a judgement of how hard your opponent is according to your stats.
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Maybe the computer could name a player after their highest skil! such as someone who is skilled in alchemy over everything else would say \'skiled alchemist\' when you looked at them... that would be useful for dueling and for advertising your tradeskkill as well without haveing to shout that you are an alchemist for example
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Originally posted by Drilixer
such as someone who is skilled in alchemy over everything else would say \'skiled alchemist\' when you looked at them...
Heh, I thought you would come around eventualy! Seriously, it would be pretty easy to sum up the skill values, and compare the total number of skill points that players have. Infact, the duel command could have built in preventers, that if one person was twice as good in combat, it would outright prevent it. Or atleast give the players a warning in big scary leters.
And, after all if there is a big problem with players challanging newbies, there could be warnings issued, and we could go around looking for such people and telling them to pick on someone their own size! .. like that Kran over there, I\'m just a lil person.... :P
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Originally posted by Drilixer
people often make the fallacious assumption that adding a timer to a skill will balance it - for spells and weapons this may be correct since damge/time is tantamount in combat - but out of combat such timers quickly become tedious. Anyonne who has ever played everquest remembers the timer inn shops when you wan to see an item\'s stats... caused some very long and tedious shopping trips. I doubt I am the only character who preferred to run around in newb gear or naked just because shopping was so slow.
i think you where the only one lol ... the bottem line is who cares .. the world will not end if you loose a duel im shure there will be some way to tell what mob you should be fighting and as far as people ... oh well you loose a duel you need to get over it
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If you would just reead the last two threads (before yours) Nadius you would see that there is more to this issue than dueling :P
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It was a while back but I love Wedges idea about eavesdropping:
I\'ve been thinking about it, and a scout skill should be something that you would really have to put some skill points in to for it to work right. ... Also perhaps a listening skill that lets you hear someones /tell and /guild messages if you are nearby them, there could be spies in the game.
Not knowing the capabilities of your opponent beyond the physical (equipment and stature) I think is a good thing. As far as I?m concerned the less dueling, the better.
It might even start a tradition of the pre-duel boast:
?I?ve killed dozens of swamp men on the northern marsh.?
?Oh yea, I?ve killed a dragon all by my lonesome with only a sword and shield and I was hurt going in to that cave?
?Sounds exciting, well look at the time ? I must be going!?
I heard no ?permadeath? ? so lessons will be learnt. You can always refuse a duel, or as someone suggested duels of honor and money.
Even without levels I hope there will be some sense of accompleshment - an occasional reach this stage of skill and get access to somewhere, something, or some other such capabilites.
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i don\'t like the idea of duels. you should be able to walk up to somebody and hack them up.
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I dont know if i like the idea of walking up and... \'hacking\' people, but maybe an alternative idea to PvP servers.
Maybe an idea like AIM has, you know how they have that warning system. When you get higer percent warning level you can send messages less frequently to people... I was thinking how about a warning level where we can warn people...
Think of this, there is some guy who keeps kill stealing you and your party, so instead of calling a GM you all warn him, Once his level gets above 50% you can use secondary skills to attack him... like EQ\'s bash and slam (if those skills will be in there) Those two skills to pretty little damage... When the person is warned to 95% or more then you can use your primary weapons and go all out attack on them. You can make it so everyone can warn others up to 15%... (example, i can warn someone 0 - 15%, someone else can warn same guy 15 - 30%) The percentage should depend upon how many people can be in a group. The warning level also has a time limit to which it goes down. and after 45% of his warning goes down (or that equal amount of time) then you are allowed to warn him your 15% again...
Its a good idea in my opinion, and wouldn\'t allow all out PvP... Once you get the guy to 50% those small attacks are just like... hitting the person with your shield or a regular punch... then 95% you can beat the guy up and possibly kill him... maybe the devs can set it so you can only knock him unconscious... or... you can kill him but no matter what level he is he respawns with all his items....
how do you like my idea?
~Dan
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then how would you raid another guild?
you could set up a system so your leader declares war with another guild and at each guild house you can view diplomecy of who is allied with this guild who is at war and who is at peace and neutral.
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Honestly... i think i like my idea alot, i would still allow guild wars and the like.
Also, people who pvp and kill the player (using my warn system, outside of guildwars) will have a slower decrease rate of their warning points. So it takes them longer to get out of the red (where red is the percentage where other players can attack them)
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Intersting idea dam, but the problem with killing greif plsayers is they ctill chat even if they are killed or knocked down in levels or whatever. A more direct solution whould just be to limit their ablity to shout, and give people a big warning when they challange for a duel... and mybe when they enter a PvP area, ther would be a warning noise to make them a bigger target.
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yea, like their name would appear above their heads... if they can do that... to make them stand out some. or how about... he gives off a certain glow, purplish light perhaps.. it would make it kind of cool because the PKers would stand out and it may make some want to by PKers.... but also, everyone knows to watch out for them, and also when they walk into an arena everyone will be gunning for them... so its kind of like... you get that special evil glow thing, but everyone hates you... it would be cool
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this thread is getting off topic. Discussions of PVP and Dueling are better served in the PVP, and theiving sub-forum.
And most of it has already been thoroughly hashed over. Go read that sub-forum and you\'ll get most of the answers to what you want.
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again - the level problem does not only pertain to dueling!
Evanchild: stop talking about hacking people up - the devs have already made it clear that that won\'t happen