PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => PvP,PK and Thieving => Topic started by: Saphire on August 07, 2003, 09:32:40 pm
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Anyone play Sims Online? Anyone see Sims Online and CNN\'s story on griefers?
Basically in Sims Online, you can go to other player\'s houses, take along your sledge hammer, *bang bang* knock down the door and steal the other player\'s bling bling.
If Player-Player theiving is put in you can and will get some people who do nothing but go around, steal other player\'s things, and then sell those things to NPCs/Other players/drop them into a well or something along those lines just to cause grief among other players.
Also, if players can build houses later on, i could see other players doing the same things like those on Sims Online, where someone goes to YOUR charcters house, takes along their lock pick kit or whatever, *creeek* door\'s open and your \"+8 Battle Axe of Mage Slaying with Freezing Enchantment\" [that was sitting on the table \"safely\" in your home] ( :P ) is gone; that weapon of which you spent two weeks playing a long quest to get.
Those were just examples, but i think you get the picture. ;)
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I agree. As I said in this post (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=3935&boardid=21&page=1#24)...
Originally posted by Abemore
I think it should be very dangerous for a thief to pickpocket a player character. I\'m talking high risk, low reward.
Only a small percentage of a players money can be stolen (no items, unless very insignificant--like apples). A player character will almost certainly grab the arm of a thief and demand his money is returned to him. Humiliating the thief, and possibly beating her to within an inch of her life (but not killing). A badly beaten thief is then in no condition to steal from anyone until she is healed.
On the other hand, stealing from NPC\'s has a much more attractive risk/reward ratio. And this is where most thieves will spend their time.
The only safe time to pick a PC\'s pocket is when he or she is away from keyboard (not paying attention). I imagine it like this: when a PC\'s pocket is being picked, an icon will appear on their screen to alert them. Clicking the icon before it disappears will allow them to catch the arm of the thief. The more skilled the thief, the less time the icon appears on the victims screen. And a stealthed thief may create a less obvious semi-transparent icon.
This, of course, should be developed and tweaked further...
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hehe... that is my favorite part of sims online - you know people can get security systems it\'s just that most players are too damned unrealistic/lazy - they forget that the game isn\'t completely social
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8o
Reading that makes me wonder why more people dont read the manual.
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Stealing would be awesome and building houses 2 it should be u have a house to your key... If you dont want to be stolen from then dont keep your key on you...
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Everyone has there own ideas of pk and thieving but plz give it a rest im sure by now the staff has made up there mind about stealing but that is a good example why thieving would be bad saphire.
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Well i played D&D for a while ( still playing but due to vacation nobody of the game is nearby ) and one of my mates is a thief and one of my other mates got a special 2D12 + 4fire db sword after a quest of 3 months playing ( every evening ) and the dude stole it and you can really get big fights and people not playing the game anymore if this can be done in such a rate ( i know i would stop playing if they keep on picking on me ) X(
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Thieving is a must, so the game is as realistic a possible. It would be cool if a thief could choose what item to take. The bigger it is, the more chance of him/her being caught.
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i reckon thieving be awesome
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Something like Silk the Theif in The Belgariad by David Eddings?
Maybe a housing system where you can buy different types of bigger and better locks from a blacksmith with a high dexterity. The blacksmith could get the componemt metals, smith them, and then install them on his house, or the houses of others for a small fee.
Then the thief could come along with his set of lockpicks (which he may have made himself, or he may have had made for him by a blacksmith) and tries to open the door into the house.
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I think equipped items should be impossible to steal, and everyone should be able to have a safe in their house which is impossible to open, no matter how high your thieving skill is.
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yes, that sounds good, except that money on the person should still be able to be pickpocketed.
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I think you should be able to pick what you want to steal from the person. The higher value of the item the more chance of being caught. And if the person who is being stole from has maybe more than like whatever experience then they can catch them... Or maybe an awareness skill can be added.
If the person who has been stolen from has a certain amount more of experience than the person they can catch them and are given options like these:
Let go with a warning
Attack (take 50% life from thief)
Drag towards nearest guards
If they choose to attack the thief, the thief can retaliate but have 50% life away. If they choose drag to nearest guard, depending on the skill points (Agility, etc.) They can escape and get away.
Dunno if other people have posted this same stuff...
Edit- Also on the thieving of houses, Either there is a warning that when you buy it, it says do not leave IMPORTANT items lying about. Either be able to put them in an impentrable safe, or in a bank. Or the person who stole the items cannot sell them for a certain amount of time. So like if the player who has been stolen from has been on for... 5-10 full hours, without finding the thief, and if a certain amount of time goes by- say 4 days without the other player getting on the thief can sell it (read last paragraph to counter not being on when things are to be stolen).
Like if the person in the house has the ability to know who broke into their house. Either go and try to get their item back... Or for a price they can either hire a Pc or an NPC to find the person and get the item back. If the person logs off, a NPC can be hired and whenever that person logs on the NPC takes back the item. If the player who stole doesnt get back on in a certain amount of time (say three days) the item is given back to the person who was stolen from.
Also the skill of the NPC is taken into account... The more skill the NPC the more amount of money it costs, but the higher chance of getting your item back. If the thief is found he is put in jail for about 1-4 days (Depending on crime) and cannot get back into his account until his jail time is filled.
Another idea is the person has the ability to put in a alarm system which the thief cant detect, and is set off if he attempts to break into the house. A personal guard to watch your house (if you have important items, or going on vacation/won\'t be able to get on in a while)
*blah i dunno*
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But it\'s a bit unrealistic to be able to steal their boots don\'t you think? Equipped items shouldn\'t be stealable (even swords, that would be really annoying because they\'re expensive), as well as quest items. Money, yes, but maybe a random amount, the upper limit of which gets higher depending on your skill.
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Just thought of an idea how theiving players can work.
Basically there shouldn\'t be any factor of stealth. When a player tries to steal something from another player, the victim is alarmed at all times. Only the more experienced theif would take less time to acess victims money and items. For unexperienced theif it should take up to 30 seconds to access victims personal stuff. Although theif can\'t take items that a victim is wearing, such as sword, armor, any clothing), theif can reach the pockets where smaller items are and where money is.
But during those 30 seconds a theif is locked and can\'t move, unless a theif presses abort on the process. Meanwhile a victim gets an alarm message (\"you are being robbed\") or the theif next to you starts glowing, or whatever... The point is once the victim realises the theif is trying to rob him, the victim is allowed to attack, while the theif can\'t attack, even if he presses abort on the process. So the only option for a theif is to run away or steal really fast and run away.
1) advantage of this
If the theif is strong and experienced in theivery, it would take less time, say about 10 seconds. During that time even if the victim starts to attack the theif, the theif will loose life, but will gain some profit.
2) disadvantage
If the theif is unexperienced, and gets killed in the process of stealing, the victim is allowed to loot the theif for his items. But only for items that were in the pocket.
I find that this may work. What do youz think?
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I found a tiny huge glitch in that one.... :D
Nobody\'ll be able to reach the higher lvl\'s of pickpocketing, as all the low lvl pickpockets\'ll keep on getting caught. Nobody\'ll ever be able to nick summin.
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that\'s the whole point. The harder it is to nick something, the less experienced theives there will be. U suggest that everyone would become great theives in no time and go around stealing everything :). I think it should be very hard to nick at the beginning, and be at the same time very dangerous for the theif, because when the best of the best reach high levels of theivery there will only be a few of them. :)
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Maybe, but u should have a lesser time limit, or maybe the player being robbed should have less a warning. Otherwise nobody\'ll be able to reach a high lvl, as they\'ll keep getting caught.
Nice idea, but it needs tweaking. :D
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I\'m not sure if we should penalise players for not being glued to the screen all the time. It\'s a nice idea for players to be able to figure out what\'s going on and choose to act on it, but what if a player has to leave the computer and comes back to find their character with no clothes, weapons or money?
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ok, not a problem, there should be afk position, where player types afk and he sits down and can\'t be harmed. no regeneration, no fighting, unit just freezes.
I mean it\'s a game, let\'s make it dangerous and interesting.
And, there won\'t be players around you everywhere and not everyone will be a thief. But if you start to get robbed there\'s a good chance the theif is a noob and you can kill him and take his money. :)
I think it\'s fair.
p.s. I think that people will start to cheat the system this way. After all you can rob your friend as many times as you want and return the items, for the purpose of powering up stealing ability. So I believe, this has to be thought out more. Maybe upgrading stealing ability is not a good idea, maybe it should just be skill of a player. knowing what you are doing, there should be a small, but complicated process to steal something. This process would take a newb 30 seconds, while it could take an experienced player with shortcuts and who\'s serious about theivery, only 10 seconds.
But like I said, there\'s shouldn\'t be any stealth, where a robber can nick your stuff without you knowing. That would cause grief.
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My reactions to the sashok20 thieving system:
- AFK should only stop the initiation of thieving and pvp... nothing else. And it will not stop what already has started.
- you are attempting to create a community of hulking Kran thieves, because your thief acts like a tank while stealing. not an ideal scenario by anyone\'s standards.
- I kinda like the vague idea of solving a puzzle to steal, making it a player based skill, but I think it needs to get more specific.
- I agree nicking without the \"mark\" knowing is unacceptable. That is why I suggested an icon (of varying intensities) to alert the mark in my earlier post.
- and I think killing is probably a fitting punishment for a thief, but only IF you catch him/her, and no looting the corpse.
I like what you mentioned about players raising their thieving skill by safely stealing from a friend. It\'s a good point. However, if I recall correctly, this is not how our skill based system will work. In our system, you are given a certain number of \"skill points\" as you gain experience that you can use however you want in whatever skill category you want. So you can kill 1000 monsters and only your thieving skill would increase if thats what you wanted.
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?Take this as Paxx the player and not Paxx the DEV?
There is another possible solution?
Instead of ?thieves, muggers, pickpockets? stealing real items they would steal a generic item type, ?thieving loot? this is then transferred for money or exp at a ?fence? of some type.
If pick pocketing a PC, the thief becomes vulnerable to being caught by the player?if he, she is?one hit knocks the thief out, and or (victims choice) taken to the jail or some thing like that?.where the thief is given remedial tasks to do until they ?pay their penance? for guild members, this might include?working in the guild garden or some stupid thing like that.
My point with this is that thieves have fun and a challenge, players want to catch them, but there are little ill effects to the victims.
In the case of NPCs depending on type?it might be like an attack or like the PC. But this would allow us to have thieves enter houses and other odd things.
To add more incentive on the ?penalizing the thief? the victim might get an ?item was stolen, will be available again in X minutes? this way we can also have NPC thieves :-)
And only items in inventory are susceptible.
Anyway that is an idea?mull it over, think about it, spew about it, and we might be able to flesh out some stuff.
I am probably the biggest thief fan in the Dev team, and we need concepts that we can sell, not just what thieves would want.
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If thieves stole generic \"thieving loot\" items, then there would be no reason to try to catch them. It could all be done with statistical probabilities and would only have roleplay implications. The victim (who wouldn\'t really be a victim because he/she wouldn\'t be losing anything) would only call for a guard if their character was morally against thieving. Otherwise, why bother?
I agree 100% with...Paxx-
My point with this is that thieves have fun and a challenge, players want to catch them, but there are little ill effects to the victims.
...but I think a very small percentage of the victims money or an insignificant item should be at risk in order to motivate the victim to catch the thief. Motivation is key. My suggestion of the \"you-are-being-pickpocketed\" icon that you have to click to catch the thief is still my favorite system.
Isn\'t it interesting how most people like their own ideas over others\'? :)
Frankly, I don\'t see the problem with thieving anymore. We have enough raw ideas here to make wonderful system. Unless... there\'s something I\'m missing... paxx?
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paxx your idea totaly kills the motivation to be a theif.
What if a theif is drawn to steal by some knowledge that a person has an item the thief desires. Of course, it wouldn\'t be easy, if you read what I proposed.
or what if it\'s a spy mission? and a theif works for a guild to retrieve an item from player.
as I said, no equipped item could be stolen, even if the theif manages to get thru the process(about the process, well I have no idea yet :) ).
As for Krans... well, maybe stealing ability should be their worst skill possible :). after all, a huge rock is trying to pick pocket you sounds ridiculous
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Originally posted by Abemore
If thieves stole generic \"thieving loot\" items, then there would be no reason to try to catch them. It could all be done with statistical probabilities and would only have roleplay implications. The victim (who wouldn\'t really be a victim because he/she wouldn\'t be losing anything) would only call for a guard if their character was morally against thieving. Otherwise, why bother?
the key is having it so there is some penalty for the victim?like not having access to a random item for some amount of time (to simulate it?s being stolen and gone). This can be money, an item short of a weapon strapped on, or armor strapped on, but could be a hat, or rings?bracelet.
I have no problem with the icon coming up for the (you are being robbed) but I would want it to be some opposed skill roll.
At the same time thieves might choose different pick pocket/ stealing options, grab and snatch?shadow and evaluate?and then take, or in a house, appraise and take?.all these things then give different payoffs from the fence, faction hits are taken as deemed?.
If the victim becomes aware of any of the actions?(icon popping up) he can then attack normally on the thief, a hit will cause the thief to be KOed, but it must be a hit?and then the victim can have a choice of penalties. If there is a reward for the thief?in some cases there may be, then the victim would get it from the local authorities.
Anyway that is my thinking at the moment?Ideas still more then welcome.
As far as it being pretty good, I think it is, but it is not my choice :-)
It is something I?d have to propose and get people to take on. With no major veto?s. So the better the idea, the better the possibility it gets through.
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some of the things you proposed sound good, would work well. specially the one where the victim(if he beats the theif to 1hp) gets to choose what to do with him. maybe to let him live, but to take his loot or kill him, but can\'t take theifs loot or spare the poor bastard.
but that generic item really disapointed me for a sec there paxx :)
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Sashok20
I read your idea, and I don?t find it all that wonderful, Abemore is right in that we all like our own ideas. The main difference here is that the thief uses the character skill (stealth included) to steal the item. The item can be anything?random or not so random, but it is not something specific to gameplay, it is specific to the thief as a character. He might have a quest to steal the ?ruby of the lost duke? and we might have an NPC with it?another player given a quest to transport it, or a player in the area has it ?as far as the quest is concerned? but in reality never even heard of it?the server simply picks a player with the right parameters?if the player loggs, thief reports back and is told?he passed it on to another PC/NPC.
For the thief the only real difference is that he is not stealing from the player but from an NPC, that might be human, with a humans AI and a humans motivations.
This is the same for spying and any number of things, grief is avoided, there is gain to penalty, and uses for thieving skills can be much more then this?but this is the classic urban thief startup.
You should not be trying to pick the pocket of the War hardened Hero of Legends, hell skewer you for breakfast and not break a sweat.
But you might burglarize his home :-)
But also in games like these, players don?t have items that are prized stuff. They have only the things needed to play the game better, with this we can expand characters a bit more?.in the house, the baker might have some trophies or gems or statues, or paintings?when in reality the player only uses the house to keep spare equipment and supplies that the baker got cheap.
We are blemishing reality of the game to fit the needs of pickpockets and thieves, while not making others miserable.
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I just thought all that stuff you proposed about the different styles of stealing are all show off. it\'s like the idea or the theory of stealing, but not the action. If you saw the movie \"the last castle\" :) you would know what I mean. I had enough of EQ to understand that robbing npc is very unprofitable/dangerous/ but not exciting. It\'s all buncha AI to me.
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This is all theory right now sashok, even the system you posted is theory. That\'s how things are in the pre-implementation stage of development.
Paxx- I have no problem with the icon coming up for the (you are being robbed) but I would want it to be some opposed skill roll.
That\'s fine, someone mentioned an awareness skill to be used to detect thieves. Not a bad idea to help determine the opacity or obviousness of the \"you-are-being-robbed\" icon.
On the Idea of stealing a \"copy\" of an item, a serious flaw exists. The ability to copy items would be exploited immediately. Two people could even steal one item back and forth generating an undetermined amount of copies. In other words, I like my idea better ;)
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I think the theives getting to choose the items is horrible, and that you may want to check up those people online when that system gets implemented. Besides, I don\'t want to have to go through the game and be watching my back 24/7 it might make the game less fun when elder players steal all of the newbs money, (Hey, are you new? Yes? ::Snatches:: /buddy NameOfSucker ) I think that it is a dangerous skill to begin with, I\'m sure the devs are working hard on that one :) But being able to steal should only consist of money, and then a percentage of that would be better, as rich people would me more favorable to steal from than a poor person...Also, crystals would be impossible to steal (would you really accept that? your only diamond? or your hoard of 40 diamonds that took you 5 months to excavate from an island city?) So, you should be able to buy a crystal, and sell it for an equal price, thereby protecting your money in some way,...(crystals should be expensive)...Ever played Lufia? That seemed nice, though shops wouldn\'t really accept crystals as payment....hopefully the currency should be in denominations (like the crystals) so let\'s say 30 trias equals three so and so\'s which equals 3 emeralds and such...Stealing equiped items is just silly...no one steals a sword out of my hand...I would prefer though that stealing was implemented in battle,...or at least would be activley stoppable...sadly,...that\'s where the cheating might start...
Another thing about the houses, is making them completeley lagslip-proof...you don\'t need to pick the lock if you can walk through the door...Again, give it time.
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Here\'s how it can be designed to make it fun for the thieves, but only mildly annoying for the victim.
Here are the various ways of stealing:
- From a player victim: Has a chance of becoming wanted if player is too high level. You can decrease this chance by improving your pickpocketing skill. Thieves should only be able to steal money from players and not items. When you are marked as wanted, npc guards will kill you/send you to prison if you\'re near them.
- From a monster: This provides a safer way to improve your pickpocketing skill. An unaggressive monster has a chance of becoming aggresive when pickpocketed. The higher the pickpocketing skill, the less there is a chance of this happening. Stealing from monsters is not really stealing. This merely generates a random item that is droppable from the monster. You can only steal three times from the same monster. Note that you might not get anything from pickpocketing if your pickpocketing skill is too low.
Also note that stealing won\'t actually remove droppable items from monsters. Stealing would just be a way to generate MORE items from a monster.
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Clearing things up a bit
What I meant as far as a copy?the victim never looses the item, and the thief never really has said item in a usable way, it must be fenced (sold to someone who deals in stolen goods).
What the victim would loose is use of an item for some amount of time depending on where it is equipped.
Another thing is, 99% of the items a character has are game items, sword, armor, stat boosting items, money?but one can assume that the character will have more things then what they have in ?game terms? this is the area we (as thieves) can frolic in. The only time we will get a usable item from a pickpocket/burglary would be as part of a quest, or from certain NPC groups that are out there to motivate thieves.
Just to make even more evident, Pick Pocketing is not the mainstay of any master thief?it is his/her training.
It is what early or small time thieves might do, the idea of pick pocketing some ?ogre king? in my opinion is stupid and something role playing games have truly messed up in doing. What pick pocketing in the high end game would be a very selective (pre combat disarm) where said NPC then cannot use his primary weapon or is in some other way of lessened effectiveness. It would not be a (thief gets free stuff as some other group are in combat) this would be the thief types version of a debuff, or if not a thief and was an assassin, the character would backstab the opponent instead.
I think a major issue is the role of thieves in the game. I have many lofty plans for them at the high-end, but at issue is how they should get there. Where and when do they acquire the skills needed to pick a guild house lock and pilfer through the guilds stuff to steal their member list, or their standard?.or some other thing important to them.
Or how can we justify a spy, and saboteur getting into a guild house and opening the front door. All while not allowing it to be a 3 minute jump over the fence and do it type thing.
In short, supply the thief types with many uses, fun content, and a feeling of a breed apart, and useful in a group. But I would not want them to be the ?useless till levels X when they out damage everyone? like in some other games.
Of course we also need to remember that there will be mages and fighters that have certain thief skills and that needs to be monitored?.but don?t think of pickpocketing and the mainstay of the thief type.
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How about this?
I think that you should be able to pickpocket a monster and get free stuff. It\'s a bit self oriented, but that\'s what a thief is about... stealing.
HOWEVER, you can also choose to steal a monster\'s weapon stealthly (unless the monster\'s level is too high). If the monster is sleeping or is not in aggresive mode, you can sneak up to a monster (using some stealth skill) and pickpocket the weapon. That in essence disables the monster\'s weapon for a set period of time.
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Besides pickpocketing, thieve skills are also associated with poison, stealth, daggers (throwing or not), and backstabbing.
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I propose sumthing like thieving in Morrowind! If u are nto familiar with it here... You must crouch and be hidden to steal from an NPC or u will automatically cought! if couhgt all surrounding NPC\'s attack you and u die! Now with PC the same except it is at random whether the PC catches the thief, therefore, everytime a thief goes to steal he is taking a risk to be cought and sent to jail or killed by the PC without any reprucutions against the PC and the PC would get there item back whether they kill the thief or send them to jail (it would be players choice whether the thief was killed or sent to jail) however if the thief is succesful in stealing from a PC, there should be a limit on how much gold stolen adn each weapon/item in the game should have a rarity level adn thieves could only steal certain rarity level items from chars and this eliminates anger over PC\'s losing precious items they worked hard to get and i think there should actually be a jail where thieves that were cought are sent... that brings us another possibility.. escaping from prison and then bounties!! yall can discuss ideas about bounties and things but i belive this would be a rather fair way for both the thief and PC\'s
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Sounds good to me.
Here\'s what I propose to make it more balanced.
Stealing would be like morrowing... BUT if you steal something that\'s not armor or weapon, you get to keep it. If however you\'re stealing the npc\'s weapon/armor, then you cannot keep it, but you disable their use of that weapon/armor for a period of time.
Since this is like Morrowind, the stealing screen doesn\'t show all possessions, but only a few random things.
Against players, you can only steal money... since people might find some way to abuse this.
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As for the prison idea, that sounds like fun if properly implemented. A fellow thief can disguise himself as a guard and sneak material in for his/her fellow thieves. Things like lock picks in bread.... Or nail filers.
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Anyway, the thing I like about being a thief is that people will always be suspicious when you\'re around. If you can support that kind of suspicious attitude towards thieves, I think that will greatly enhance the roleplaying experience.
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There is no \"stealing screen.\" Thieving is fast; you don\'t have time to pick and choose.
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I would like to see a working system for stealing myself.
The problem is exploits. You can not assume that thieves will pick targets that they would have to run from. People will do things in a game that they would not do in real life. That is one reason for playing a RPG. People will target characters that they can just mug. No matter how long it takes or what flashing message you get they will just take the item. They may even have someone to heal them, or maybe your character is out of mana or low on stamina you. In most cases the target will loose.
The idea of knocking the thief out with one hit is interesting. I don\'t think it is realistic but that is probably not a big concern. I am not sure if players would want to be a thief if their powerfull thief got knocked out by a whimpy noobie mage.
Consider a game like Unreal. You take normal friendly people and place them in the Arena, and soon people that normally cringe at the Discovery channel are knee deep in body parts and shouting \"who\'s the @%!$ &%$!# now\" (Yah babby, that is what PvP is all about!).
All in all this is a good thread it should have some stars next to it.