PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: Vengeance on August 09, 2003, 06:51:34 am
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1. PS will probably also have fairly rudimentary AI for the foreseeable future, so I doubt merchants will react if a mob accidentally attacks you in a shop in PS.
2. PS will require thought, searching, research and repetition to find rare items also in order to make things and fulfill quests. If you don\'t like this or find it \"boring\", maybe Diablo would be better for you.
3. Mobs will probably be faster than you when you are unbuffed in PS also. Wolves are faster than people, as are flying creatures, and most others. SoW in EQ isn\'t being \"buffed to all hell\"--it\'s a L5 spell for many classes.
4. If you fall off a boat in PS (if we have them) because you weren\'t paying attention, our GMs won\'t help you either. Pay better attention.
5. In PS it is highly likely that for most things you will be forced to group to accomplish them. It is a MMORPG which is a fundamentally social thing. If you want to solo, play NWN and chat in irc with your so-called friends.
6. It will probably take us a year or two (or more) to add things like the rogue skills Abe listed. Like it or not, they are simply not as high priority as other game features like cool spells, guild house construction, etc.
Continued in next post.
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7. Mob aggro goes after the person who has done the most damage, and higher level characters are able to distract the mob in EQ so that the lower level characters aren\'t automatically wiped in every battle. It is a game design issue--intentionally making mobs dumber so that the game can be fun for mixed-level groups. PS may do it differently, but will certainly allow lower level chars to live through many battles.
8. Towns are mazes because the tall walls make good occluders and this design makes the 3d engine faster (thus reducing render lag like PS has). Especially when EQ first came out, render lag on those primitive cards was a big deal and as a coder you should know that Abe. We are in fact redesigning our cities to have better occluders as well, and will probably end up more like EQ cities than they are now.
9. Casting spells in PS will certainly take time and I\'m sure PS will have some visual way of showing you that progress over time. Casting spells that are too advanced for your skill level will certain result in spellcasting failures (\"fizzles\") in PS also.
10. Currently there isn\'t CD between *any* players or mobs. 100 people can stand on the same spot, just like EQ. This is done for very valid reasons, most of which revolve around efficiency or griefing.
11. The command line will be the central interface in PS also, and as so many people here are linux-based, I\'m sure they will love that. :-)
12. NPC Dialog will require typing, as will talking with your friends. No ESP interface has yet been defined.
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13. NPCs leaving out important quest information is so that the quest provides a *challenge*. If you don\'t like challenges, PS will not be for you. As the husband of someone who has literally completed hundreds of quests in EQ, I don\'t know what was meant by \"Buggy, broken, impossible pieces of crap\"--in fact I think that applies quite well to our existing quests in MB. :-)
14. The PS Rules team will 100% for certain nerf and change people\'s and item\'s stats and abilities as we figure out more of how the game is working once people are in it. We may totally change the combat or magic system to something new and eliminate all existing spells, Everything is on the table and everything will probably be changed 10 times before it gets very stable. Abemore the fact that you didn\'t know what \"nerf\" means makes me question your level of MMORPG knowledge in general.
15. In PS, you will probably do more walking than in EQ. EQ has Gate, teleport, evac, the moon bus, druid towers and many other ways of jetting around without walking. Paxx, our Rules guy, hates teleporting and thinks it is too easy.
16. In EQ, there aren\'t that many different items for < L20 players because L20\'s are such newbies. In the modern game, that represents about 2 days worth of work and people jet right by L20 on their way to 65. The majority of EQ is setup to take care of its high-end players because they are the most dedicated to the game (and thus the most lucrative to Sony). I am sure that in PS we will also want to take good care of our high-end gamers because they will be our most loyal fans as well.
With all these reasons to hate PS, I\'d like to know what people think is a reason to stick around. EQ is the way it is because in a lot of cases that is how it has to be. The goal of the MMORPG game designer isn\'t to make life easy on the players and it isn\'t to make progression short, painless and direct. It isn\'t the goal of the MMORPG game designer to make unkillable smart mobs that attack perfectly. And to accommodate as many concurrent players as possible (perhaps 5000 instead of 500), corners are cut in things like collision detection and AI.
I have written this thread to explain why I think the main thing the \"EQ sucks\" thread does is illuminate the ignorance of the posters on how MMORPGs are designed.
Sincerely,
- Venge
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but in eq don\'t you have to declare a duel to fight another human? will ps have that?
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Originally posted by Vengeance
With all these reasons to hate PS, I\'d like to know what people think is a reason to stick around.
I stick around to read your occasional posts in which you attack people, it\'s really entertaining.
This is actually the most info I\'ve seen about the future thoughts about PS...at least said directly. Maybe Abemore should insult EverQuest more often and I might eventually get up to speed on things.
**wanders off to find out what he has missed**
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if ps becomes eq, i will difinately not play it.
but right now one can only wait and see.
nice post bytheway, a lot of info.
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Thanks for the info about PS... As to EQ I can only tell you that I think that there are a lot of better alternatives out there, but that is only my oppinion.
So if anyone wants to play it, be my guest... :P
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Uh oh... I don\'t like the looks of this thread... singled out by Vengeance...
*Abemore reluctantly goes back to read the thread*
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Originally posted by Vengeance
With all these reasons to hate PS, I\'d like to know what people think is a reason to stick around.
$0.00 :D
And of course the smart, or at least reasonable ppl here.
PS: Venge, you\'re only allowed to make it maze-like as the dungeon. :P
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*sniff*
:(
*hangs head in shame*
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1. Yeah. k.
2. Just like always.
3. Yup, just like in Baldur\'s Gate with the wolves there... :D
4. ;(
5. Well duh, its a RPG... you\'re supposed to. :P
6. Good things take time.
7. K.
8. Lower lag is always good. :]
9. Reasonable.
10. Less grief is good. :))
11. Yeah.
12. K.
13. Challenges are fun. Dont make them stressful though.
14. K.
15. The $0.00 helps here... :P
16. Yah, just make sure there\'s something to keep the newbies there till they get over L20.
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Again, thanks for the info on Planeshift... that is the most official info in one place I\'ve seen in a while, albeit it is all common sense...
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I posted these things because I wanted people to understand what the EQ designers were thinking--not just decide that mazelike cities \"suck\".
I did that by illustrating that the PS designers and coders face many of the same constraints and dilemmas as EQ did (or any other MMORPG). As I was reading the \"Why EQ Sucks\" thread, it hit me that most of those complaints in that thread will end up being the same way (or almost) in PS and wanted a dramatic way to illustrate it.
Obviously some of those things are bugs in EQ or just bad implementation choices, but nothing is perfect and neither will PS be.
As far as the information content goes, I agree these things are all common sense and so I\'m not giving away anything confidential to the team.... But if all this is common sense, why does EQ suck for the same common sense?
Maybe it does suck--I just haven\'t heard any good reasons yet.
- Venge
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You have a point Vengeance i personally dont have any problems with EQ gameplay but that doesnt meen im gonna play it anymore. Im sure all of the people that arent designers and coders cant make anything better than EQ or PS
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PS will always be > than EQ since PS will always be free. 8)
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well it\'s not that i hate eq but it\'s the same as ultima online it\'s there for a long time and eq is also improving alot i like ps because it\'s made for everybody rich or poor and you can see the development and might give ideas to improve things. the other games are all after money and in my opinion really to much fo uo you pay bout $250 for 6 months well i aint gona pay that much for a game not even to buy it.
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Originally posted by Vengeance
As far as the information content goes, I agree these things are all common sense and so I\'m not giving away anything confidential to the team.... But if all this is common sense, why does EQ suck for the same common sense?
Maybe it is all common sense, to people who have played many mmog\'s, but others (such as me) have played only a few so really don\'t know what is common and what is not...so it does help to have those things posted whether or not a lot of people here already know them.
As I said, I\'ve been curious about what was being planned for a long time, and this helps me even though it may not help others.
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In my opinion the PS developement may face the same problems as EQ since nothing will ever be perfect. But the situation is different.
Since I pay for EQ a whole lot of money (well not me personally, but in general), I can expect certain things. If I get a \"faulty\" product I have the right to complain.
The attitude of people about PS is completely different.
I don\'t want to express, that I don\'t expect anything because PS is free, but since I have (in theory) the possibility to contribute I should/would rather do something myself instead of whining...;). If I don\'t or if I can\'t for whatever reason, I\'m not to complain.
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the key difference between PS and Everquest is that we currently have the ability to shape Planeshift - that ability might have been possible at one point in Everquest\'s develoment process... but isn\'t as obvious any more. Hopefully Planeshift will continue changing and will continue to be as friendly to it\'s community as it has been or else it will just be another EQ
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Ahhh yes.... I actually enjoyed playing EQ. *the audience gasps in astonishment*
Yes I really did. That game sucked roughly about 4-6 hours out of every day for me. That and the lack of funds are what forced me to quit. EQ was when I played it a very solid game with a lot of good feature. I have to agree with Vengeance that the thread hasn\'t really come up with any good reasons to hate EQ. PS is better because of the community and the price tag. The real draw though is the community. A MMORPG is all abou the community. I look forward to adventuring some day with Moogie, Ayshe, and many others I have met here. I look forward to someday wandering into the Diaboli Baths and thinking: \"I helped come up with this idea.\" I look forward to exploring a dynamic world that I had a hand in creating and doing so with friends.
So Venge that is in short why I would stick around to play PS.
Hope that answers your question :-)
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Hiya,
Zaphar, I think you hit the nail on the head there. I havn\'t played EQ myself, nor do I think I ever will. This is partly due to my firm belief that P2P schemes are unfair and show the developers\' true drive in creating the game... they just want money.
PS is not like that. For as long as you stick to your promise, I and many others will highly respect you for your selfless dedication to this project.
I also agree that the devs\' friendliness and helpfullness to their loyal fanbase helps a whole lot in creating a community in which so many people feel compelled to stick around and help out. There\'s a fairly close relationship between the developers and their fans in this project, compared to other games, where you may play for an entire year and not have the priviledge of meeting the big guys. :)
Ooh, that\'s another thing. Open source! You\'ll always see many eager contributers ready and willing to ease the massive workload that the devs face every day in creating such a promising world. It also means that we can contribute ideas and possibly even see them implemented in the game at some point. Not only do you receive many highly imaginative ideas, but also an insight into what your players\' general needs of a MMORPG are.
Well umm... that\'s all from me. :)
*vanishes in a puff of pretty stuff*
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Im really glad there wont be public teleporting =)
REALLY glad.
i love traveling, traveling to a new city gives you a nice sense of accomplishment and adventure =)
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Originally posted by bbum
Im really glad there wont be public teleporting =)
REALLY glad.
i love traveling, traveling to a new city gives you a nice sense of accomplishment and adventure =)
dito - teleporting really cuts back on the replayability of most games simply because people become lazy and they become a bridge for powergamers to overwhelm any RP ingame
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Like when Planes of Powere came out, nearly ruined everquest.
The only city anyone went to was PoK because thats where all the teleports were.
Druids and wizards lost there jobs.
That reminds me... High levels getting a teleport spell can be a good thing, just needs to be controled on how many places he can go to.
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Good to see you back, Mogura.
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Please say we\'ll be able to hire a stage coach. (Come to think of it if there\'s enough walking that might be a good job.)
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if this game is going to be as big as it has been said a few times, the endless amounts of walking WILL become boring... A stagecoach or something similar would be nice, and some animals for riding (landbased).. There isn\'t really any need of teleporters, they are just there to reduce the often boring times of walking...
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Zaphar I couldn\'t have said it better! An active involved community, contribution possibilities for all and comradeship, that is what makes PS special. The fact that it is open source and free are huge bonuses that are the cherries on the cake.
Great to see you back Moogie.
Drillixer and Xaltar I agree teleports should be an exception to the rule at most and there should be the danger that if used a teleport can go wrong, badly wrong, and you end up in some god-forsaken place instead of your destination. That\'ll keep it from getting too popular a mode of travel, maybe Paxx could live with that?
The stagecoach, horse or some other animals for riding is a great idea. But we need more variety too. Just having one or two ways of flying is very restrictive. I would for example, as animal trainer, like to be able to train some big bird like an eagle so as to be able to fly on it (shortish distances only) but great if you need to escape or in stead of climbing somewhere high up.
Venge it will be nice if you can comment a little bit more on modes of transportation.
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it would be nice if most creatures were taimable and rideable (to reason - you cant ride a fire elemental or that sort of thing of course )
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Originally posted by Vengeance
I\'d like to know what people think is a reason to stick around... ...The goal of the MMORPG game designer isn\'t to make life easy on the players and it isn\'t to make progression short, painless and direct....
So what is the goal of an MMORPG designer, for you?
I\'ll be staying with this game because it is by gamers for gamers. It is the fantasy, swords and sorcery version of a world dreamt up by the people to be forever added to and improved by them.
I\'ve seen that the development leaders are willing to learn from their players, and that they are motivated to above all give the game maximum enjoyability for all.
The ideas for setting, races, story and world are innovative, original and diverse.
I believe this game will grow and expand indefinitely. To me it represents all the great virtues of gaming.
Because of this, I think PS will be taken to levels unprecendented by the current developers, within and beyond their lifetimes.
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i myself have played Everquest since kunark expansion, and I still love the game, i\'m a 52 chanter and i guess maybe its b/c i\'m on a smaller server (the 7th hammer) Yes there are some thing that could be done but youv\'e got to think how much can the change to make the game \"harder\" if the do to much people will leave, the day the made \"KEI\" lvl 50+ only really pushed the limit. Eq is really a great game and i plan to try EQ2 b/c it shall be what EQ1 was ment to be The main reason PS will always be better than eq1 and 2 is b/c everquest is owned by sony and verant, they need money, pull to many strings and you get less money, ps devs i canwhipe everyones face against there buttocks and they wouldn\'t loose a dime see what i mean, they aren\'t preasured to hold back and let the players hold the whip.
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Originally posted by druke
The main reason PS will always be better than eq1 and 2 is b/c everquest is owned by sony and verant, they need money, pull to many strings and you get less money, ps devs i canwhipe everyones face against there buttocks and they wouldn\'t loose a dime see what i mean, they aren\'t preasured to hold back and let the players hold the whip.
I know what you are trying to say, but I think your annalogy is a bit forced
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I know what you are trying to say, but I think your annalogy is a bit forced
*gets out her crystal-energy whip and \"applies\" a dozen lashes to Drillixers buttocks with due motherly love* \"When you have learned to spell a-n-n-a-l-o-g-y with your crystals mommy will even let you criticize fellow guild members\" :P
I think what Druke is trying to say is that PS developers do what they do for the love of the project and not in order to make some company oodles of money. I don\'t know EQ but in principle I also dislike comparing PS to a closed source, p2p game without the kind of player involvement (i\'m guessing here) that PS players can achieve.
Did the power-out in the states hit your brain Druke? :D
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Originally posted by Wolfmane
*gets out her crystal-energy whip and \"applies\" a dozen lashes to Drillixers buttocks with due motherly love* \"When you have learned to spell a-n-n-a-l-o-g-y with your crystals mommy will even let you criticize fellow guild members\" :P
*looks up list and realizes that comment was made by Druke - then slowly conneects Druke to AO...* oops
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What game designers want to do is to design an engaging and lengthy game for their players. You do this by putting constraints on what they can do. If every piece in chess could all move like the queen, then chess would be totally boring. The limitations can be frustrating at times, but they are truly what make games games.
Imagine basketball without traveling or fouling.
Imagine soccer with no offsides and no \"hands\" rule.
Soccer players don\'t sit around saying that it \"sucks\" because they WANT to pick up the ball. It is the way the game is made and a big part of what makes it fun.
The same is true with MMORPGs. The trick is to take out the constraints that are not fun and put in the constraints that are fun. :-) And that, mostly, is a matter of opinion.
- Venge
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Venge quote:
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The same is true with MMORPGs. The trick is to take out the constraints that are not fun and put in the constraints that are fun. :-) And that, mostly, is a matter of opinion.
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It looks like this is the thred to read!
EQ was my first MMORPG, so in the begining I really like it. I started to play in Jully of 2000.
As a newbie I definately disliked the \"auto attack\" guild leader death thing. Big bummer. If PS takes that out it will be a big step forward for newbies.
EQ gave you almost no instruction on what you should be doing. The tutorial was suposed to be enough. They just now added in game maps! I don\'t think you need to have an in game map of whole world, but your starting city should be there! Newbies ALWAYS ask where they can find this or that!
EQ shops made no sense at all. Taverns did not have glasses! but they had beer! The basics should be in every town. I should not have to travel 80 miles for a sharpening stone! I don\'t mind traveling 80 miles for emeralds but stones! hah! *calms self down*
Midlevels are fun, proably the most fun of the game for me. But! downtime sucks. In EQ it is at it worst in this part of the game. Good high level groups seem to have less down time than the midlevel ones. I am wondering what Blizzard will do with its game. They are the masters at keeping you busier than hell while you play!
EQs high levels are the reason I gave it up. A Vox raid with corpse recovery can easily take 12 hours of your life. The main reason anyone would do such a thing is that your ingame items are so valuable to you that you will give up your real life to get them back. I would like to see a game where your \"worth\" was placed more on your characters skills than the trinkets they get. A 50th level char should be able to kill almost as well with a rusty sword as he can with a \"light saber\".
Darin
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traveling is never fun but it needs to be done. to get some resource it may be far away so you get as much as you can once and only get it when it is needed most. it makes it so you don\'t have all powerful people who have everything.
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I agree with Derwoodly, this thread is starting to become the most interesting and important one I\'ve read so far in PS forums.
Venge your annalogy with chess is the best description of how and why the rules are designed like they are I\'ve come across. Great to have a reference point like that to consider.
The points raised by derwoodly on items needing to be there, glasses in pubs etc., are important. It really is that kind of detail that completes the atmosphere in a fantasy world like this. It is the kind of thing you don\'t really pay notice to when it is there but you sure miss it when it isn\'t! That may however be a problem for devs in terms of polycounts, complexity etc. A suggestion to consider here, maybe certain places like taverns could be fighting free zones. Thus in these rooms there will be less activity and movement that the game-engine has to deal with, on the other hand there will be more details like beer glasses etc. So these taverns are almost like 3D chatrooms. Maybe the idea is wacko since my understanding of the technical side is lacking to say the least but anyway ......
Thanks for bringing up the travelling bit again evanchild. Not to be a pain in the netherregion :P Venge but could you comment more on modes of transport or ask Paxx to do so?
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I was just wandering one thing I really didn\'t like about Everquest was that it was a life sucker you had to play it so often just to get somwhere you couldn\'t just play it when felt like and get somwhere like in most FPS, I just hope that PS will be freindly to the casual gamer who doesn\'t have ADSL and won\'t be on 24/7 (don\'t take that Literally)
And ditto i\'m playing PS for the $0.00 price tag
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Ok I think derwoodly\'s criticisms of EQ are pretty valid. There are several cases where the AI of the npcs could be better (as far as not killing you :-) ).
Also, our intent is to have a newbie map that you join on startup in which NPCs will tell you how to do things and let you practice a little bit. I don\'t know if this will be in CB release or not.
I am sure our Rules/Settings guys will try to make sure that the shops have items that make sense in them. However, spreading items around is a way for game designers to enforce that people explore and move around, so we may have some frustrating omissions also. :-)
Regarding the raiding, I\'m not sure I agree there. Raids are time-consuming, not because of anything EQ did, but because it just takes a long time to get 60 people in one place and get them all buffed and get them to all shut up for a minute. :-)
Regarding traveling, the team is sensitive to it being \"boring\" to just run for hours (or even minutes) anywhere. On the other hand, we think doing that helps the sense of immersion, makes the world seem bigger and more integrated, and is more realistic as well. I think we\'ll have to just play this one by ear, but know that we don\'t like hours of mindless running either.
- Venge
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As for traveling, I hope there will some sort of system where yuou can just give your charactor a destination, and sit back as they find there own way there. The danger being the less you have traveled there, the more likely you will take a wrong turn....
Can I hope for something like this, or will we have to hover over the keyboard for an hour long trip?
Also, just having charactors advance regardless of how many people they kill will set PS far appart from EQ!
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I really liked EQ also, I kinda how the PS enchanter is like the EQ chanter, with Mezz and stuns mainly. The only thing that I didn\'t like with EQ is zoning, and if you didn\'t play ALL the time you couldn\'t get money like the other players. You had to farm things with I didn\'t like. SO now you have players that don\'t have a jobs, only go to school that can play for 8 or more hours a day and make tons of money. It wasn\'t until after they did the stable selling that ppl could make money while online and off. Also if you couldn\'t play as much you\'d get left behind in lvling.
That being said, zoning may or may not be something that can be taken out of a game like this, DAOC did somewhat get rid of it but there were still zones even in DAOC. And like many other ppl I have used it to get away also =).
I understand that players that play alot will get more out of the game, but in the case of EQ I payed my $12 bucks a month just like everyone else shouldn\'t I have be able to play with my friends that lvl faster? Ashrons call had s good medium with this using a guild like structure and even while off line your guild members would give you part of your experience also so that you could continue playing with your friends. I hate farming, and the little time that I did have to play I didn\'t want to spend it selling and having to keep up with what the going price of things were. But with regret, that is part of life and I can\'t see any resolve to this problem and all MMORPGs will most likely have the same problems. Unless you could have a house and an auction company that would run for you all the time and adjust prices to \"The going rate.\" Like in EQ in the bazaar, they build a list of items in a database, and you can search for them. Why not when your setting up to sell have these options; What you want to sell it for, Option for sell at % higher than the highest price, % to sell lower than the highest/lowest price, and have a min price to sell it to ppl wouldn\'t get smart and have a 10k for sell and they mark thiers down to 2 pennies so they get it for almost nothings. Also have your \"house\" be able to sell while you weren\'t online would be great, possible? All depends on the coders =)
Well thats just my $0.02
Flame on =) hehe
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Originally posted by Vengeance
I am sure our Rules/Settings guys will try to make sure that the shops have items that make sense in them. However, spreading items around is a way for game designers to enforce that people explore and move around, so we may have some frustrating omissions also. :-)
This does not need to be enforced. People will explore and move around on their own (and for quests). Intentionally adding frustrating elements to a game just does not seem like the best coarse of action. Derwoodly is right; 80 miles for a sharpening stone in EQ is preposterous. Each town should have the basics.
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Ok Abe, you convinced me.
I\'ll make sure that none of the quests take more than 2 minutes either and everything is located really close and obvious for you.
You really don\'t get it... and that\'s a shame because it is preventing you from enjoying these games.
Just my opinion,
Venge
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Yeah thats what I wanted. Every post I\'ve ever made was just a complaint that games are too hard. :rolleyes:
A little less sarcasm would do us both good.
Lets ask ourselves for a moment, \"why do people play video games, or watch movies, or read books?\" It is to escape reality, is it not? Escape the troubles of real life? But for this to happen, we must suspend our disbelief. Each time something illogical presents itself, it becomes that much harder to suspend disbelief. It\'s okay if there are no sharpening stones in the mushroom city where the magical mushroom people live, because they have no need for weapons, but all other cities should have them. Things need to be logical.
The future of MMO gaming is as seen in the film The Thirteenth Floor. A persistent parallel reality. With all the inherent frustrations of reality, why take the time to implement new frustrations in the alternate one? Inevitably every game will frustrate to some extent, but to purposely add new frustrations would only lessen the fun.
If there\'s still something that I \"don\'t get\", then please explain it to me.
frustrating omissions bad, logical omissions good.
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It sounds like Progress Quest would be the ideal modle to use for PS. :))
You could log on to PS and type /autolevel and your character would piolot his or her self to the \"killing fields\" kill random monsters, then head back to town and sell all the loot and buy the apropriate items!!!
You should also have some crossbows that would magically reload and fire small arrows that have been woven together and packaged into a cartrige. Oh, 1000 or so arrows per cartrage would be good. As you level the firing rate would go up!!!
And all of your character classes should have pets with the same features as well. That way your character can go have a beer while the pet levels for him!!! Wood Elves would like that feature!
Hummm, beer... I think I will go and have one... now where did I put that spoiler on the... *fetch me a glass of beer* quest
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reminds me of my old roleplay thread, and the one guy that just wouldn\'t stop about how roleplaying is pointless
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Originally posted by druke
reminds me of my old roleplay thread, and the one guy that just wouldn\'t stop about how roleplaying is pointless
I guess I\'m \"that guy\" in this thread? How sad that I don\'t realize it...
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Duke wrote:
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reminds me of my old roleplay thread, and the one guy that just wouldn\'t stop about how roleplaying is pointless
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Are you talking to me? am I the \"one guy\"?
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Abemore, if you are in favor of long runs for items that don\'t make sense to be close by, no matter how badly you need them, then we are in agreement.
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Oh good. I guess it was just a missunderstanding. Glad to see we\'re all on the same page now. ;)
*runs from the conversation before something else goes wrong*
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RUN Abe! Run! :D
Thjis thred has given us some badly neede info though, thanks Venge. I like the idea of not having to go forever to find something needed, however something really worthwhile shoul be difficult to get hold off and thus also worth questing for. But I\'m sure the dev team will make sure of that too.
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Originally posted by Vengeance
Ok Abe, you convinced me.
I\'ll make sure that none of the quests take more than 2 minutes either and everything is located really close and obvious for you.
You really don\'t get it... and that\'s a shame because it is preventing you from enjoying these games.
Just my opinion,
Venge
Venge, I think you overdid it a bit with the 2-minute thing. Basic things should be able to be found in the vicinity of the town, I agree with Abe on that (Please, don\'t delete my account), BUT they should only be BASIC things (swords, daggers, armour, minor semi-useless magic runes, newbiestuff).
The more interesting things, people should take time getting those. 80 miles is a bit far, but having to walk for quite a while (say, 30 minutes RLT or something) dodging arrows, dragons, wolves, tigers, other treasurehunters, that would be better. It\'s not that the game should be TOO easy, it\'s that people should have a challenge for the better things (the better, the more you dodge, parry, hurt).
And for getting those better things, there would be two choices; either you team up with someone (or more than one), or you go alone, and hope you won\'t be hurt going there, or killed on your way back.
As for the no-travelling thing, it can be annoying. Maybe it would be an idea to have a FEW points over the map, which you can use to travel from one place to another, like between levels, or between one end of a level and another, so you don\'t have to travel the whole cone just to get to the top or bottom. That way, people would be using more of the landscape, and not sticking to one or two close-by towns, crowding them out (As Hyplaa is close to now, with up to 40 people doing the hunt-the-crystal). And it would make the worldbuilders happier, as they will see that their areas will be used too (Been builder for various MUD\'s (yes, text-based mmorpg, ancient-style), and it\'s always nice to see your area being used by players, and getting compliments about them).
Sar
ps: RLT = Real Life Time.
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Wow, thread resurected from the dead!
Just so everyone knows I pulled that 80 mile number out of the air. Game time I think it was about an hour and a half to go four zones.
Shadowbane is being criticized for the same thing. In Shadowbane you don\'t have speed buffs, teleport or horses, and running drains stamana, so you have to rest every now and then to get it back.
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I am sorry, but PS will not be the last dungeon of FF7 where you tape the controller down and make the team fight up to level 99. What are you people trying to do with PS? Making and auto system is truly preposterous (even if I can\'t spell), to say the least boring. If you want a game where you can easily kill all the monsters (even if there is \"danger\" as you call it) Just by pressing a button, go cheat at some RPG...I bet you have a gameshark right?
Honestly using the fact that \"some\" people use PS as escapist lore as a sheild for an obviously weak argument is childish. Realism and the fact ther you are pulled away from your \"normal\" reality is what PS should be all about. Why make it so easy every blacksmith is pumping out spider silk armour every day? Things in PS, all things should come out of hard work, albiet fun, and provide ample rewards for the people playing it. I think you are complaining that it might be too hard, and I also think that if you played enough games, you would understand that there is a much, much more complex philosophy behind gaming, MMORPG\'s, and hoo-boy life in general.
If people do not want to take the game seriously, why should they be rewarded for 1 days worth of fighting around the city, while little \'ol Harwen treks to the deepest pit of the stone labyrinths and back, and then to the highest mountain in the land, just to get an item just as worth while as whatever 1 day of fighting around the city would give.
Why can\'t the quests be frustrating? Are we supposed to pamper the obviosly slow-witted? I agree there could be some \"newb\" quests which are easy as sin to solve, but should these types of quests plauge PS? Heck no!
The only reason the Regulars complain about the NPC\'s is because they seem a little rob-tronic, single command line interface thing. Honestly the only easy thing about the quests should be the NPC interfaces (smarterchild, anyone?). Hard things make people glad to solve them. I always tear out the last couple of pages of a word search book, it takes the fun out of it knowing i have the answers.
Well, anything else? I think that the (almighty) Devs aren\'t exactly here to make the game horrible for us, so let\'s not take every little change they make so personally, think of it as an input and response basis, they give you something, if it turns out to be crap, tell them about it, then, they might change it if your argument is strong enough, or enough people complain as well, simple as that.
Oops, I rambled again :(
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You have some great points Harwen. The game should be chalenging. The problem with many of the MMORPG\'s is that they force the players into a mindless bunch of clicking. The hope is the mindless clicking will be elimintated. I do not think all of the mindless clicking can be eliminated, but I would enjoy a game that did not require me to schedule 8 hours of my life every time I log online to play PS.
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Well the quests in fantasy novels typically take 1000 pages to do, and if the people doing it are on the East, the destination is always on the far West of the empire, with required detours to the North and South first, plus a little backtracking.
We don\'t want to read 50 page novels where the Golden Chalice of the Five Winds is in the next village over do we? :-)
Why should PS be any different?
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Vengeance, that is very ambitious of you to want to put quests in PS that are worthy of a 1000 page novel. I suspect some of the quests will be a bit shorter. I am used quests being more like doing a NPC a favor. You go to a NPC and they say that they need some item. You find it and bring it back to them (just like a golden retriever! good doggy!). I actually like the idea of quests, especially when they can be solved over several days/weeks of gameplay. Quest generally give you something to do that does not involve a commitment of a eight or more hour uninterrupted game session.
If we must travel 3000 miles by foot then I for one would appreciate the ability for my character to walk himself. Heh, I can hear the laughter now! The feature would not garentee safe passage mind you, it would just auto guide you down a road. That way you could at least surf the web or eat dinner or something while your character travels.
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Originally posted by Vengeance
Well the quests in fantasy novels typically take 1000 pages to do, and if the people doing it are on the East, the destination is always on the far West of the empire, with required detours to the North and South first, plus a little backtracking.
We don\'t want to read 50 page novels where the Golden Chalice of the Five Winds is in the next village over do we? :-)
Why should PS be any different?
Hmm... Really? You wish to have quests this huge in PS?
That would be a wonderful idea! I hope there will be such quests!
And if possible, I\'d love to help design one of those quests (the story, I mean, not the programming ;))
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Im new to the MMORPG scene, and i say that this is a project im more then happy to stick around for. Planescape is at a fragile stage atm and it is at the moment what we choose to make it.
I find in many games certain things the user want to do cannot be accomplished because these features where never written into the game. Its like walking down a corridor and seeing every door be a simple texture on the wall, and only a door at the end being interactable with. a MMORPG shouldn\'t be that way, if you are going to create an entire world, that hundreds if not thousands of players can enjoy, then create that world. And it is our input now, during it\'s development that will enable this game to take the form of something brilliant.
The reason i never played EQ or AO is simply because of th price tag. It\'s bad enough that i have to pay $50AUS for a game, but then have to fork out an aditional $350AUS every year to play the game. This is clearly not worth it. If you spend so much time in a game, there is something wrong with you, it shouldn\'t take you away from life, maybe ease the pain of it, but not take you away. All i want is a game i can play with my girlfriend online, this has proven to be fun... and so, for a couple of full time students, a free game is what we need.
I think its a great idea, that at the moment players now get an input as to what should be in the final release of PS. It\'s something that you dont see much or get at all with games now. A developer will simply release a game to a few and based on 100 responces fix what they see fit. This way, you have an opinion poll on a larger scale, and it can only prove to be usefull if managed properally. A game should be what the gamers want, not what the developers see fit to give us. Much like a government, except more practial, as this works.
As for quests, not 2min and definalty not something that is 1000 pages in walkthru, but something that takes a few days to complete at say 2-3hrs a day is alright. I agree with Harwen in his definition of a quest, they should be challanging and fustrating, and provide something more then a simple hack and slash, but then not so complicated as to force you to do actual research outside of game time to figure it out.
Well i\'ve said enough for this post...i\'ll ramble more later... :P :]
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We have kick ass devs, and a free game. So im VERY happy.
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I hate Paxx X(
Paxx makes up the stupid rules! Man why doesn\'t he take a vote before inflicting those crippling blows on the game?!!! He should ask me at the very least:P
But seriously I think the players should get to vote on the rules that go into the game.( No PKing!!! What is this world coming to *shakes his head in disgust* )
Otherwise the game is as good a Zero cost game gets. I think i\'ll hang around to see how Paxx ruins it further:P.
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Originally posted by Auran
I hate Paxx X(
Paxx makes up the stupid rules! Man why doesn\'t he take a vote before inflicting those crippling blows on the game?!!! He should ask me at the very least:P
Paxx\'s posts are usually very well thought out, I for one enjoy reading them. Keep up the good work Paxx!
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There has been a vote on PK, and around 80% said no PK, so, sorry. No PK in a long time.
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Originally posted by Caldazar
There has been a vote on PK, and around 80% said no PK, so, sorry. No PK in a long time.
and those 80% are a bunch of first time mmorpg\'ers that don\'t know what fun is... :P if the rules are good enough, not like in DAoC, then PK will be fun...!
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Maybe u should try reading the polls?
20.83% Said No Pk
36.11% Said Yes Pk (note that it\'s higher than No)
43.06% Said Yes, depending on how it\'s done.
So really, the majority is in favour, as long as the rules of it are fair. :D
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Originally posted by Xordan
Maybe u should try reading the polls?
20.83% Said No Pk
36.11% Said Yes Pk (note that it\'s higher than No)
43.06% Said Yes, depending on how it\'s done.
So really, the majority is in favour, as long as the rules of it are fair. :D
I think Cal was refering to an older poll, done way back... But still, those people back then were boring (some of them still are :P). I think Pk\'ing should be allowed if it is enforced the right way, not letting players of extreme skill kill newbies that just started...
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Oh, right. :D
Anyway, surly the new poll is more updated?
And I agree that pk\'ing in some form should be allowed.
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i do aggree if done the right way pk should be allowed but something like mu for punishment for doing it should be inplemented (pkers classed as a murderer shops wont sell items to them) now im just waitin for someone to say im floggin te dead donkey to make it a full on pk disscussion :D
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*Ahem*
Allow me:
U\'r floggin the dead donkey. :D :D
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This post started out good, now it has gone to the dogs, the pk dogs that is.
Please read some of the PK threds for more information on pvp. I believe the next release WILL have pvp in the form of a dueling option. It will not be a free for all like Shadowbane. Of cource, I am only repeating rummor. Only time will tell what the next release is like.
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derwoodly i have read the pvp stuff hence the floging the dead donky term
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My bad, I only added to spam, I know you have read the PK forms Seperot. I must have felt the post needed another \"please read before posting\" message.
D\'oh, I am adding to the spam as we speak!
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Originally posted by Xalthar
Originally posted by Xordan
Maybe u should try reading the polls?
20.83% Said No Pk
36.11% Said Yes Pk (note that it\'s higher than No)
43.06% Said Yes, depending on how it\'s done.
So really, the majority is in favour, as long as the rules of it are fair. :D
I think Cal was refering to an older poll, done way back... But still, those people back then were boring (some of them still are :P). I think Pk\'ing should be allowed if it is enforced the right way, not letting players of extreme skill kill newbies that just started...
The Way i seen this done and i really liked it was in RPG Worl Online...Premitive but entertaining... What they did was started everybody off Non-PK and in order to advance to a PK you had to do this quest called \"PK Quest\" and you can become PK once the quest is finished... i thought this interesting so i\'d let the staff and fellows know of it.. something similar wuld be nice.. I mean if im a newb playing and PvP is open and all i do is leav the city and there they are the Camping Newb Killers... waiting in some area where Newb s have to level do to low strengths of the creatures... they set at the entrance and block it where if you leave the town to level soon as you start in they either kill you or hit you, and if you live through the berage and run into the Leveling area they send in a couple guys and guard the door... and you end up dead... thats NOT fun... and i hope that if PvP is activated that it requires something to be...
Ragnarok Online does it where you have to be level 30 and you pay to enter this PvP building.. so your running round in a Arena specified for PvP... i thought that neat as well...
Im done now
Eoghann Adair
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Ragnarok Online does it where you have to be level 30 and you pay to enter this PvP building.. so your running round in a Arena specified for PvP... i thought that neat as well..
Didn\'t the dev team say a while ago that there will be Arena\'s where you can vs another player.
As usual correct me if I am wrong.
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Yes. Obviously Adair hasn\'t read the numerous posts made by the devs. PvP will be duels, arenas, guiuldwars, and special zones.
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This post is not about PvP. Abemore is not a pro PvP poster. This post is about game dynamics and the reason most of us our here. PS has good interaction between players and deveolpers. I have never had this kind of interaction with any other develepment team.
Originally posted by Vengeance
Ok I think derwoodly\'s criticisms of EQ are pretty valid. There are several cases where the AI of the npcs could be better (as far as not killing you :-) ).
Thanks Vengeance for listening. :?)
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I just wanted to put my two cents in. I\'ve never played EverQuest, but I DID spend about eight months playing Dark Age of Camelot. I\'d like to put my opinions out here for the consideration of the design team.
There is only one thing so far that I can see about what Vengeance has said that troubles me. I don\'t mind grouping with people, when they aren\'t irresponsible time-wasters who pull mobs before the party is ready and end up getting everybody killed (over and over and over again). It\'s true, everybody is new at one time, and everybody has to learn--but I say that I shouldn\'t be FORCED to group with somebody who has three level 50 PCs and still does idiotic things.
My primary game time is between 2am and 6am, Central Standard Time (USA), which means (at least when I was playing DAoC), that I\'m often the only experienced player online, and when I DO find people who want to group, they\'re ones who get my character killed REPEATEDLY, which costs me (and the character) in terms of XPs, money, and (most importantly) time.
In addition, there is the problem that when I log on, there are usually precious few others on the server with me. If they have a group, it\'s normally full or (even more frequently) they\'re not in my level range, which means I\'m left to *gasp* solo. If I don\'t solo, I don\'t get XPs, and if I don\'t get XPs, what\'s the point in playing the game?
If you want to encourage grouping, that\'s one thing, but don\'t set the game up so that it\'s IMPOSSIBLE to level while playing solo. I\'m not trying to be antisocial; I think it\'s much more antisocial to force people to group when there\'s no way in hell they\'re going to get along (or succeed), which will make the game less enjoyable for everyone.
Group quests are fine, but there should also be several available for solo PCs. Likewise with monsters.
That said, I now want to focus on the things I LIKE about Planeshift. Everybody, so far, has been doing a fantastic job--and I\'ve only seen the pre-alpha version (I know there\'s a lot more that\'s been done, and I\'m extremely anxious to see it).
The graphics are smooth and detailed, the music is very professional, and the GUI interactions are top-of-the-line.
The races are all very imaginative, and I like the revisions that have been done to the dwarf (unfortunately they aren\'t available in pre-alpha).
Furthermore, I like the fact that everybody who plays the game (at this stage, at least) has a chance to contribute to the game\'s development--and their contributions are taken seriously.
And, of course, I like the fact that it\'s free, and that it\'s guaranteed to stay that way. There is one concern I have in this department, though--what about advertisements? There\'s nothing in any of Planeshift\'s documentation, agreements, or licenses that says they can\'t sell advertising space, and I wouldn\'t put it past anybody (especially anybody from a capitalist nation, such as my own) to pull in some profits for the \"Non-profit organization,\" start pocketing a salary, and let the gamers suffer with in-game advertisements.
Can anybody put this fear to rest? I won\'t believe it\'s not going to happen until it gets put into the company\'s official documentation.
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I wouldn\'t put it past anybody (especially anybody from a capitalist nation, such as my own) to pull in some profits for the \"Non-profit organization,\" start pocketing a salary, and let the gamers suffer with in-game advertisements
True.. but This is a planeshift world, not the real one.. Example if someone put an add for coke somehwere it would be pointless, people IN yliakum will not drink coke so there isnt reason to advertise.
But i wouldnt blam them if they charged people for the servers, Its a natural thing to do. 8)
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Originally posted by Vengeance
As the husband of someone...
explain.