PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Saphire on August 10, 2003, 05:23:50 am
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Seeing as how almost every other mining system is fairly borring (click click click one billion times sitting in the same spot trying to get the same ore 20 other ppl are trying to get) and rather usual (the rock on/in the land somewhere, again, clicky clicky) and since PS is just the opposite, i think it needs a mining system that\'s just as cool as the game is!
im not sure what if anything is planned for the mining system right now, so please excuse me if there\'s something already done for it.
Basically, 80% of mining would be done in the ground, 20% on the surface; not like Run/Escape, where there are only 2/3 major underground mining areas. Why so much under ground? its the place where the majority of the minerals and metals are excavated. this leaves the other amount left over for open pit mines and rocky out-croppings and things of that nature. Now, lots of mines would not be part of the normal world, which means that you have to load in another area. this effectivly means that mines can be as small/large as could be made without interfering with other areas underground.
The metals. Ahhh the metals, the hard part of mining. What to put in? You have all your basic Copper, Tin, Iron, Coal, Gold, Silver, Mithril, Adamant, etc and any other \"special\" ores to put in ... stuff. :P Copper + Tin = Bronze, Iron + Carbon (Coal) = Steel, fyi. Maybe some of the less touched-upon metals like Aluminum, Nickle, and Platinum.
One thing that\'s hardly touched in MMORPG\'s are Minerals. Minerals can give great strength to a metal, even if that metal is already an alloy. (read: Tungsten tipped steel bullets) Some minerals can be Zinc to prevent corrosion on iron, and make stainless steel and brass when mixed while molten with copper. Sulfer (or Sulpher, however YOU want to spell it...) to be used in fire making in cookingbecause it has a low ignition point, and thus ignites at lower temperatures. Phosphorus can be used to provide chemically generated light (glow-in-the-dark stuff has some phosphorus in it) and of course many others that could be used in quests or in everyday use. (Ran out of torches? Use light-emitting phosphorus when combined with [other mineral/metal]!)
All that is useless without having a fun way to mine the stuff out, though, so here\'s where my main idea is!
Basically, when you go into a mine you\'d normally see a bunch of rocks on the ground. Not so in my idea. The mineral patches would be everywhere; floor, walls, AND ceiling. How do you get to the ceiling? You get a builder to build you some scaffolding. :P The more you mine the more the rock face becomes deformed and small, until only a small nodual is left. Eventually the nodual would be re-grown into the full amount of the seam (pushing the players out of the way, just incase someone went AFK too close to the nodual as it was regenerating) but be un-usable until it was fully regenerated.
Leaving the mines alone for too long will result in the noduals being \"over grown\". the longer they are over grown the higher the chance that the seam could drop off \"free\" peices of ore (something like wall decay irl (in real life), where bits of wall fall off the longer it stays up) and of course being over grown they would be larger than normal; again this is where the builder can come in, he can build wooden or stone walls around a nodual to limit how large they can become. making a node small would mean less ore yeild but you get it faster (as it takes less time for it to regenerate to its size) and making a node almost to its over-grown size would mean it would give a large yeild but regenerate slowly. building walls could also let paths remain open incase there are too many over-grown nodes nearby. the walls would eventually deteriorate and fall apart with some of the original material being recoverable after some hours with higher builder skill making them stay longer. walls can also be used to separate the iron ores from the copper ores. :)) they also give a place to put a torch (if dynamic lighting will be put in)
Some times nodes will completly \"run dry\" and die off, but another node of the same type is randomly placed in the mine where there are few other nodes nearby. this will lead players to \"Where\'s that mithril node...\" and thats where a geologist\'s hand book comes into use. you walk upto a wall, take some ore, and look into the hand book looking for the ore. now, you actually have to look in the hand book, on-screen and say \"Ok, this has to be mithril ore. its light in weight and its greyish blue in color.\" with alittle blurb at the bottom about how skilled you have to be to use it and stuff.
Skilled miners wont need the geologist\'s handbook; they\'d prolly know it all by visual referance to memory. ;) just incase you cant take out a sample (imagine trying to pull out a adamant ore at the lowest skill level! :P ) there\'d be little peices of ore sticking out of the dirt, just littleral screaming \"Minerals and metal here! Im over here!\" and \"MINE ME YOU DUMB ***!\" :D and you can do your visual confermation that way. \"Yeah, thats [metal/mineral]. That stuff aint comming out o there at my skill level.\"
Of course you can be totally oblivious and mine it anyways, but you wont know what metal it is until someone smelts it, or you\'re stuck there for 15 minutes trying to get a metal out of the rock.
OK, enough of that, four things i forgot to mention:
1- sometimes nodes of the same type will be able to clump very close together. This is good, because it means that: A) The ore will regenerate x times faster with x amount of nodes there B) you\'re gonna get alot of ore :D and C) That cluster will stay there for quite awhile.
2- With the rough and sometimes mucky ground, travel can be hard with a full load of gold (heaaavy!) which is why a builder should be on-site to place wooden or stone floors in the mine. these stay up longer than walls, since they cant be lamed. about 36 hrs can be derived from even the lowest skilled placement of wooden floors.
3- Nodes that originate on the floor will grow upwards, nodes that originate on the ceiling will grow downwards, and nodes on the walls of impenetrable rock will grow away from the wall. Ceiling nodes will be mined out upwards, leaving a cavity in the roof. Floor nodes will be dug out downwards, leaving a pit in the floor. Wall nodes will be reduced to a thin seam on the impenatrable rock.
4- Sometimes \"dummy\" nodes will spring up. these would be \"one time\" random nodes, where they come with one type of ore (Copper, for example) and then when they are mined out (usually a low amount) they will not regenerate but move to another location in the mine with a different ore type (this time maybe Zinc) ready to be mined out again (this ensures that \"Oh, there\'s only [these ores] there, i think i\'ll move on now...\" doesn\'t happen like it does in... run/escape. :P )(Why \"dummy\" nodes? You\'d be a dummy waiting for them to regenerate. :D )
Idea additions:
Guild mines
Guild mines operate the same as the usual public mines (the ones above) except that they are usually much smaller, and privatly owned by guilds.
The way you can see a possibility of a [future guild] mine is a shimmering rock, for a shimmering rock holds valuable minerals and metals; and wealth! Underneath the shimering rock is a room of a uniform radius (im not sure how big something should be, lets just say 1 to 3 normal building floor sizes) and inside that room are dummy nodes and dirt nodes. The room is randomly generated every time you enter the mine; so one week it can hold copper, then next adamant (again to stop the \"oh this thing is here, i wont go there, its useless to me\" etc etc and the possibility of online \"guides\"
You can go upto the shimmering rock, and examine it. you then recive information on how it looks like. this rock is basically a bill board to tell you \"Hey, i have copper and tin! good for making bronze!\" or \"I have coal! and lots of it!\" IF you know what you\'re looking for (Geologist\'s hand book )
When you (the miner) put down the mine entrace, the entrance will stay up for 5 days or until the dummy nodes are mined out, then collapses (dont worry, it pushes the players out to avoid harm) to ensure someone else gets their turn. 3 days or more are needed for the mine to recouperate. when its built a dirt node will be centered on the mine entrance, meaning that you have to crawl down there, and mine out the dirt node from the inside. dont worry, the dirt node doesn\'t expand; thus the entrance will stay \"open\" for the 5 days.
Once you finish mining out the dirt and get to a metal/mineral node there you can look at what type it is (if you didn\'t check the sparkly rock, again, you can do this entire thing in ignorance and get some ore) and mine it out as stated above like a normal dummy node. there are about 1-3 dummy nodes in the entire mine; all other space is either open or filled with a dirt node. when you\'re finished for the time being you can exit the mine and close the door to it and come back later. once the mine is exhausted, you get pushed out of the mine and the mine door collapses. you cannot use the mine again for atleast 3 days. the longer you leave it, the more ore accumalates but only to a certain amount.
the next time you go in, you may get phosphorus, iron, and copper instead of sulfer and coal.
you can also put in things like Evanchild said, like a bucket attached to rope slung from a pully to bring up ore so a miner can just go from the node to the bucket instead of having to climb the ladder to give the ore to someone. at the top you can have crates of ore ready to be hauled by people (or summons or what-have-you) to be taken to the smelter or something. also, at the top of the mine, everything there cannot be taken by anyone without the miner or the builders permission; same goes for entering into the mine. you have to OK it with the miner and/or builder first; which often means giving them a small amount of $ to get in.
Additions:
- \"Dirt nodes\", non-regenerative nodes that give nothing to you, but must be mined out to uncover the other, much more valuable metal and mineral nodes.
- Added in the \"Guild mines\" to this post.
- The miner can put down a mine entrance, its just that a builder is needed so that the mine can have enhancements. IE: wood/stone for walls and floors
- There will be tracks and trucks in the large public mines. guild mines could have them put in but they are too small, have too little amount of ore, and do not stay open long enough to facilitate the use of these ore hauling trucks; though they can still be built.
- Remember guild mines are meant to change hands.
End of Additions
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Hope you enjoyed reading that looooong thread! (If you didn\'t your missing out on some great ideas)
[edit] i should murder myself for having so many typ- s[/edit]
[edit]Added additions section.[/edit]
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erm... each guild could build their own mines from rope wood and suck. rope from basic cotton or woll and wood from erm trees :) stuff like that. then you work in it and output 2 dirt for every ore. and it is put in a crate built in to the mine and take it all when ur done. something like that.
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nice idea saphire and good details i would like it to be like that too instead of (click click) :D
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[moved into the original post. thx again Evan for the bucket/pulley idea] :)
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This is awesome! I might actually consider mining now. Anyway, I\'d put carts in too. (the builder\'s could build these)
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Very good idea Saphire!! I would like such a system to be implemented, for it has great potential IMO...!
There could also be added some sort of random monster infestation (although it should be rather rare) and then the mine would have to be cleared out before you could take up working there again :) adds a little diversity..
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Mining isn?t just digging in the dirt. Things like building scaffolding or trucks on rails to get material out are things that a minor can do. I?ll think any of these things don\'t require a builder because its standard mining practice to do this stuff. They also know how to reinforce ceilings using timber build mining equipment and so forth. It?s the same as a fisherman being able to tie a fly.
This doesn?t mean that a minor forges his own items. Some basic implements like a pickax would have to be made for him but only really the head. Being able to put a handle on a pickax seems like pretty basic skills. And the heads are pretty close to indestructible.
Hard rock mining is completely different though. It?s incredibly slow going without explosives. In ancient times if they had to go through granite basalt or some other very hard material basically they couldn?t. So what would be interesting to incorporate mining magic. I.e. magic spells that aid the minor. I don?t know what they would be but it would be cool.
There is one point that I?m not entirely sure of. Maybe a developer could come on and enlighten me. Mining is tunneling in the Earth basically. After mining you have a hole in the ground. Does this mean that minors can build dungeon levels eventually? It would seem like a programming nightmare to me but I could be wrong it might be easy.
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hehe, I\'m afraid I havnt read the entire post yet - but I\'m sure it has potential... one thing though - why have \'all the basic metals\' - lets make new ones! And since this is the medieval times there is no scientific community that regulates the names of things throughout the world... so NPCs should refer to the same metals with different local names. For example a stone like metal could be refered to as runewood in the upper levels of Yliakum and NPCs in the lower levels refer to it as lightstone. Etc etc... Might cause some confusion at first for noob miners, but would add another layer to interlevel mining operations.
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thats a good idea drilixer, and saphire it would be cool to mine like that, with the money potential it would be a great way for guilds to get their money. but fish, they did get stuff like granite and marble (how do u think they made all those big buildings like the taush mahal or how ever u spell it) the grantie and marble and other hard rocks have grains, much like wood. so the ainctient quarriers and miners used chissles and wedges to seperate the rocks thru the grain, it was long,hard, and expensive, but they did do it :) wich might also ad an idea for quarrying in this game, eh?
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I don\'t thinka nyone wants to hire slaves or whatever and drag gigantic bricks piece by piece to their worksites... would get extremely boring walking allong \'dragging your brick\' at about .5 mph to your work site which is many leagues from the local quarry...
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Actually comparatively speaking marble is a very soft stone. It?s very easily shaped and has some beautiful patterns to it. Granite on the other hand is hard to work with indeed. How they used to get granite was to slab it off a ledge not mine it out of whole. This meant you had two to three faces that were already free. Another way they worked granite was to use a boulder. They split in shaped the boulder to make what they needed. When your mining in a whole you only have one face showing. This means the only way to get it out is to drill. I?ve actually used a star drill to get through granite. It takes really good tool steel and a lot of muscle. And if you miss you hurt like the dickens because it requires a baby sledgehammer.
Most of the really old buildings aren?t even made of granite they?re made out of some other stone. There?s a lot of stone out there that comes out in blocks almost by itself. Basalt which is an igneous rock is in a class by itself. If you hit a Boulder or ledge made out of that stuff you might as well give up. Its blasting time at that point.
I can?t help but think though at some point in this discussion were getting way beyond what?s practical to write into a game.
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Originally posted by Fish
I can?t help but think though at some point in this discussion were getting way beyond what?s practical to write into a game.
I havnt read any of this - except to say that minerals/metals should be unique to Planeshift and not steel iron etc etc... but you are probably right... half the ideas in these forums are looney...
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miner mines the metal and minerals used to smelt and shaped into the builders/miners tools and the builder goes and puts down the mine entrance and walls/floors so that said miner can get more ore out quicker.
The big, static mines where i\'d think 75% of every miner would be would have ore hauling trucks and such like that, but not the small and guild-owned \"open for 5 days only\" mines. the guild mine idea is just there to put another spin on mining. \"Oh, there are too many people there mining the metal i need, so i think i\'ll travel around and look for a buildable mine where i can get the ore i need and then some\"
but yeah, miners should be able to put down the basic mine entrance to a buildable guild mine.
only problem i can see is if this idea gets \"too good for its own well being\". we have to remember that 1000\'s of players will be doing everything, and atleast 100\'s will be mining out ores, so if we put in anything like cave-ins and magical mining out inpenetrable rock (its inpenertable for a reason, you know...) the server will have to be mighty powerful...
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I dunno - I don\'t think guilds should be able to just get their own mines... if they want a mine they can build their guild hall either beside or on top of an existing one :P
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Originally posted by Drilixer
I dunno - I don\'t think guilds should be able to just get their own mines... if they want a mine they can build their guild hall either beside or on top of an existing one :P
i said:
When you (the miner) put down the mine entrace, the entrance will stay up for 5 days or until the dummy nodes are mined out [blah blah] to ensure someone else gets their turn. 3 days or more are needed for the mine to recouperate.
and so any guild or single person can own it for 5 days, but then after they get kicked out because there is no more ore, wait 3 days, at which time another group could come in and say \"we\'ll buy this from you for 10000 tria\" and it passes hands over to the next group of people.
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hmm - I allways liked ore simply respawning in mines... that way people have to compete for the ore that is there until they have the money to plant a structure around the mine\'s entrance - of course some mines would not be able to have a structure built around them
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I wonder if instead of responding the same spot in the mine it would be possible for the mine to actually go deeper. One would think that traveling in the mine the graphics would actually render quite quickly. There wouldn?t be as many polygons. So when you go into a mine it?s more dynamic. There would be a set of standard mine configurations that would be fed to the game engine in your computer that would stitch the configurations together. It becomes like plumbing, fitting pipes together.
Sections of the mine could even become flooded. So either the minors would have to be unaffected by water or you would need a pump. But since your underground you could actually have mining that goes up. Then the water would just pour out.
You can have the usual mining disasters as well. You can hit gas pockets or have a cave-in. Then you have to use your skills to get out. It would also important for the minors to do some preventative maintenance to their minds. Say after going by a place that?s going to have a cave-in there would be the telltale signs that something?s going to go wrong. So from time to time it would be prudent to inspect your mine. Or if you spend extra money reinforcing a particular tunnel you can guarantee there never will be a cave-in, a lot of extra money. But if it?s a main tunnel it would be cost effective.
Another thing this might do is to turn a mine into a Guild hall or something. Once a mine is played out you hollow out a few room?s leave the passages as they are. Install a few doors and you?re in business.
One thing that hasn?t been talked about is prospecting. It would be another skilled minors would have to train. Just because you dig a hole doesn?t mean anything will come out of it. And finding a good mine sites begin with this skill. There is also the issue of being able to follow a vein of good ore that bears the minerals and metals that you?re looking for. Prospecting is another one were some interesting spells might be applied.
Just batting around some ideas...
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those are good ideas fish, but they arn\'t for the little buildable guild one... those are more for like a dungeon mine or the public mine sort of thing.
i really do like the idea about \"plumbing\" the whole mine together; lots of little rooms and peices that can be randomly compiled and peiced together, something like Diablo. uber idea. 8)
actually i just thought of how cave-ins could be done without crashing the server; just have \"dirt\" nodes that almost instantly regenerate at a certain time. a cave-in node would act like this: you mine it out like a normal dirt node, except that after 48 hours (real-time) little spikes apear all over the roof. this is the warning that \"hey, this roof is about to collapse!\" and 4 hours later it will (all the more reason to have a builder on-site!) collapse in with all the effects; pushing the miners to the nearest safe area (having to excavate your body when you come back wouldn\'t be fun) falling rocks that do some minor damage, and the sound. gotta have a good sound.
builders could put up supports and a area around the supports would be protected from cave-ins (aka \"the spikes of d00m.\" :P ) and walls do the same except they block the ore flow, as well.
maybe on the lower levels there would be flooding, but the only way a mine could flood on the upper levels is if the miners accidentally ran into a under-ground stream... or magma vent. :P
[e]prospecting sounds like the guild mine idea... maybe you would have to go into town and buy a prospecting permit and buy a deed to the land you want to prospect. maybe as a visual cue there could be lots of little pebbles and maybe alittle bit of coloration on the rocks nearby to suggest \"OMG I FOUND GOLD!!! 1337!!!\"[/e]
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I\'m not sure about digging and everything... sounds a bit complex to program
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im gonna make a picture (MS paint owns you. :D ) to better explain this entire concept. how/where do i upload my stuff? i just want to know ahead of time so i have a answer when im done my picture. :]
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I use hostmysig.com
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I thank you, Drilixer!
The image and blurb will be up shortly... as soon as i find a format that can give me the resolution i needed. Jpeg SUCKS for resolution... X(
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gif
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The picture! .png format (http://hostmysig.com/data/saphire/mining%20picture1.PNG)
sorry, but .png was the only one that could give me the necessary resolution. open it in another window and read along. (ph33r my 1337 MSpaint skillZ 8) )
Ahem. Alright. First thing i want you to know, this would be a dungeon mine. dungeon mines work just like public mines, except that monsters are inside and cave-ins happen. Second thing you should notice: there are multiple areas for other rooms to be attached to on existing rooms; however, because the mine size is uniform but layout is not, the computer randomly generates peices of rooms like in diablo. [edit]look on the walls on the map if you cant spot them. they\'re little purple/blue dots[/edit]
hallway K could\'ve been attached to the start room on another opening, and on another rotation. rooms can be randomly generated next to rooms, and with hard rock looking exactly like impenetrable rock a room could never be discovered since everyone would think \"oh, thats just impenetrable rock. i wont check if it could be hard rock, since it looks like impenetrable rock.\" ;) and dont worry about someone digging a huge bottomless pit, the floor is the floor and that can\'t be changed (unless theres a floor node there, but most of the floor node stuff tries to reach for the roof)
[edit] sorry that its .png format. i think you all should still be able to veiw it, its just that JPEG doesn\'t do it justice (some parts dissapeared in JPEG and text became fuzzy; unreadable) and .gif reduced the amount of colors (again making things unveiwable) i hope the image helps though![/edit]
[another edit] if you want a closer look, right click on it and \"save as\" and save it to your hard drive. open it in mspaint and zoom in to about 2x mode. you should see it with much better clairity[/another edit]
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still sort of weird... how would this fit into an mmorpg? does the \'sand\' respawn so later miners can have the \'pleasure\' of digging through it?
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this would fit into a MMORPG as to provide a new way of the usual \"click click click\" sydrome of mining. just because its a repetative task doesn\'t mean it has to behave like a repetative task. with this its \"click click \'oh, no more ore\' *move to another part of mine* click click\" and it gives multiple jobs to multiple classes. it can even be a great place to put a quest in...
Think; A fighter, mage, miner, and builder all head into a dungeon mine to retrive a peice of a mineral (some soap stone, lets say) and they all go in. the fighter + mage kills off all the enemies at the front of the cave and such so that the miner can clear out the dirt in safety, and the builder prop up the just mined and stop any chance of a cave-in in the area. as the 4 make it through the place, they stumble upon a mineral node. the miner from experiance knows that it isn\'t the mineral they are seeking and they continue on. the miner hits a wall face and *crumble* there lays a open cave room. some giant spiders here-and-there which the fighter kills off with ease but its too dark so the mage casts a light spell to light the place up.
and there it is! in the middle of the cave, a boulder that gleams with the mineral they seek! they all head in, and get some of the ore, but when they are heading out a thunderous roar erupts from the center of the cave and the big boulder becomes alive! they all run away as the beast tears the builder\'s supports usunder, causing a cave in that not even the supports can stop (hey, a new cave creature spell!) and they all run for their daintly little lives and make it out alive. with mineral in hand the 4 head to the old man and and claim their prize. the end. :)
the \"dirt\" nodes do not respawn. the cave-in nodes do though, which is why you need a builder to put up supports. :) there are no differentiations between dirt and cave-in nodes, so until the spikes apear you wont know. ;)
(and the supports last longer than it takes for the ceiling to collapse, so as soon as the supports go and wait a hour later... *squish* for any NPC :P (PC\'s still get pushed away, though. \"OMG I GOT FLATTENED! NERF IT!\" would not look good spammed 100 different ways 1000\'s of times a day on the forums would not be fun))
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Yes there would be programming involved but let?s break it down a bit. They?re already talking about the players building buildings. So let?s think about what would be minimum to make it work. I might be wrong on some of these points a jump right up and correct me please(not that you wouldn?t). Crystal space, the engine that this is based on, has the room portal system. Essentially build a room and to get to the next room there?s a portal. If you don?t make the portal two ways it becomes one directional. So each tunnel section would have a portal on the front and back end of it(I don?t know if they call them portals but you get the idea). So if you?re duplicating the same section for say long hallway you essentially use the same room back to back. So for a straight mine shaft you would have a duplicate hall in the straight-line. So then you?d have to build three sections, a standard mine entrance, hallway, and the end being mined. It?s up to the server to figure out how deep the mine is and where you are in it.
Having the mine split, shafts up and down, a section filled with water, and all the other stuff can be done later. However when you mine you have to mine enough material to add a section or you have no chance at all of getting anything out of it. That?s the general idea.
One might argue that after a few years of this there would be mines everywhere. I argue it is a nice habitats for monsters. Making the mining professional little bit more dicey and interesting. The entire mine system would be set up at the server end so as mines increased in size and scope you don?t have to update. Another possibility is if a mine hasn?t been used for an extended period of time because it?s played out and nobody?s in it just have a collapse.
Even though I think there?s no chance that this will be in the first official release it would be a cool add-on for later on. Although there would be some programming to it I don?t think it would be daunting.
So I guess it?s really an idea for the future.
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hmm.. it\'s an interesting idea but I think it\'s sort of cheezy :P you have to realize that you want to make it more interesting in realistic but making peoiple HAVE to party like that is one thing alot of players dont like and dont have time for... miners would much rather just go mine and not have any of these problems... I understand what you are saying now with this system... but it doesn\'t look like it would be much fun :P I\'d rather have one big premade mine than a dozen of these.
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Public mines: No \"special\" stuff for miners to do, sometimes little amounts of monsters, builders do their work here to help the miners work better at their job(wood floors wear out fast, but provide a moderate speed boost! stone floors are thusly better. walls to give places to hang torches/etc) however, they are gynormous, and take awhile to explore completly. not randomly generated
Guild mines: Small, however, they carry the majority of \"special\" features in a mine. player owned, they let the player mine in peace, and let in other miners where certain conditions must be met if they so choose. randomly generated when the player makes a mine entrance.
Dungeon mines: Monsters roam in these, they are smaller than public mines and carry some of the \"special\" features. not randomly generated
Dont like cheezy? use a public mine. Looking for something different and somewhat of a adventure? use the guild mine. want a real challenge with beasts gaurding the best ores? use the dungeon mine. 8) (rather ballanced towards anyone\'s tastes, i\'d say)
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you make fun of RuneScape in your topic, yet use its metals in your idea, i really dont think there is such thing as mith/ addy ore. but ive been wrong before. nice ideas :)
God bless,
-Jag
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Mithril and Adamant have been used in MANY various fantasy worlds; one of them being The Lord of the Rings. Remember Frodo\'s mithril chain main? Yup. :D
Oh, and Mithril is Steel and Silver combined, and adamant is like, 2 parts steel 1 part black steel or somthing... but their \"special\" attributes dont pass over from fantasy to real life. Mithril and Adamant are both used in crafting and arts stuff doing with figurines and stuff; as they\'re too weak a alloy (combination of two or more metals. Bronze is copper + tin, for example\'s sakes.) to be used in weapons/armor.
Oh, and i did not once say the word \"Runite\" in the other posts nor did or ever will suggest it as a metal, because runite is used in runescape and Adrew Gower would prolly sue us... ;) :P
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Though he wouldn\'t sue us (at first), that would be a a very cheap ripoff. Instead we should Groovadelic-Monkethemnesuimiteon, it\'s tye-dye shinyness would stun and confuse your enemies :P
Seriously, I\'m sure you can think of a better metal. :)
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I still havn\'t been convinced from what you said that your idea is any better than having public mines - public mines would have creatures and traps anyways - just the dirt and cave in thing is way little off and I don\'t think builders should have a part in mining unless if you want to break the building skill down into various sub skills like: tower builder, mason, bridge builder, minecrafter... etc etc...
Edit: and in case you can\'t tell I don\'t like the idea of breaking down the mining skill either
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did i say i was trying to break-down the mining skill into other things? no.
its just that while i had spent my time in runescape as a miner (to begin with, before the update removed the option to be a miner) mining was highly tedius and borring. even with monsters around, it was \"ugh, 2312 more exp... x # of coal... y # of hours... and z # of clicks\"
All the mines in RS are public, and thats the problem i had. if i wanted to mine coal i could try the wilderness level 11 and be owned by the level 13 \'pure\' punk with a rune 2h or long and lose a load of coal... or i could try going into the dwarf mines and get coal there, but the outside non-level required area was always full, and the level-required area was always empty; and the level-required area was a good 40 levels away from my level. this left me with little ore and thus little exp.
if i could go, find a private mine that only i could own, and mine out in solitary i would, but there are none so i quit. so thats what these other mines are for. for a player to go into, and mine out either alone or with his/her miner friends so they can gain a level (if there are \'levels\') or whatever they need without having to sit by a rock in a public mine only to lose to the mass of 10 other people trying to get the ore you also want. :(
its not faster, you just get more ore and alittle more exp; without some 5 people slowing eachother down and taking forever to get a full load. that and the idea is rather unique; something that no other MMORPG has... i think.
[e]also think that builders will be apart of almost every other skill. the builder builds a safe house out in the middle of monster-infested no-where for fighters/mages to use and recouperate in. its only fair they should have a hand in gaining more exp in constructing stuff for miners; like floors for faster travel. One skill, many abilities.[/e]
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Sry, but... bump.
Im just asking if anyone has anymore thoughts on this idea before it falls into the land of obscurity and dust (aka page 2) :P
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public mines roxxorz!!!
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you should be able to smith coins from gold (with a very high lvl of course), becuase it would be conterfiting it should be ilegil which would make it more rewarding but gives you a bad reputation and makes you more inclined to get into trouble with the law enforces but more inclined to become a member of a crime guild. it would score you points with them.
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You see, in fantasy worlds there is no \"real\" coin system. It\'s based on purity of the coin, and weight. If you have a pure gold coin, weighing 1 lbs, it would be worth so-and-so flour, milk, etc. If you happen to mine crystals, you can make your own coins (that\'s rather difficult, though) or you could sell them to the coinmakers for some coins. However if you wish to make illegal coins, it would be to use fake-gold or mix gold and iron, making non-pure gold coins, etc. (By the way, dwarf coins are ALWAYS worth twice as much as human coins. No matter what. They simply smelt their gold more efficiently, and shape their coins better. No way to get around it.) :)
To make a diffrent version of the public/guild mines, you could allow people to buy small parts of lands somewhere in the world. So if your guild stumbles across a small valley full of precious metals and other goodies, you could ask permission of the government to buy that plot of land, and only guild members (or you alone) would be able to mine it. However, buying land areas full of minerals isn\'t cheap, especially not if you know there is something of value there. However, public mines are mines made on some random spot where any person can go in and start chopping. :)
The land-buying thing can be used for just about anything. You can buy your own forest or a lake, however not everything should be for sale. Mostly remote locations that noone bothers visiting anyway, and that isn\'t close to some town or another. Otherwise the government would obviously just go claim all the stuff for themselves. :)
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Originally posted by Gronomist
The land-buying thing can be used for just about anything. You can buy your own forest or a lake, however not everything should be for sale. Mostly remote locations that noone bothers visiting anyway, and that isn\'t close to some town or another. Otherwise the government would obviously just go claim all the stuff for themselves. :)
I kinda like the idea of privately owned land. Only you would get to decide who gets to enter the area. Of course, you\'ll probobly have to pay property tax.
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the problem with buying land is the world would have to be really big and if there are as many people as i think there are (in planeshift) then there will be a problem because of all the people that buy up everything and then take over most of the world a slitly bent version of world domination just cost more.:)
P.S. plus the server lag it would have to store all the information of each land sale and buying and eventually you would have really large areas where you cant go.
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what about monsters in the caves that mine ore, you could have a warrior / mage go into a mine for ore & kill monsters that collect or hord it in obscure places.
:emerald: But we must balance it to keep away from monster bashing, maybe many quests would be to get ?10 Minom Hides? & return to a npc dwarf & he gives to some ore he just mined or something? Lots of randomly generated quest like that.
:diamond: I like the idea of many different ores, it would be nice to make a wall that you must dig through & the server randomly generates a sub-tunnel for them to break through & then they make an opening everyone rushes in & starts mining new ore, after most of it is mined up & everyone abandons the sub-tunnel it collapses to form a wall. & After a while the server generates a new sub-tunnel different from the first were you can mine different kinds of ore. This would be in the main mining system.
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Well, there are alot of good points throughout the various posts, these are my 2 cents :
1. instead of making alot of different metal ores, in my opinion (and as it was suggested in the original thread post) there would rather various ores,minerals and such - so you mine a certain number of metals, yet you can mine minerals such as sulphur (used to heat forges every hour or so, to heat ovens and etc), coal and other minerals, various types of gems, etc ...
2. when planning the mining procedure, care should be given to beginner and veteran miners, i just think a low level miner who mine simple materials shouldn\'t worry about too much, and a veteran miner who mine high-grade materials should worry about dangers (monsters, etc), and depth (rarer materials go way deeper into the mines) which means plans of how to carry it to the mine enterance.
3. to give a skill depth (or should we say prevent it from being so dull as a click and get), you don\'t have to have grand things like cave-ins, or frames - as much as they are realistic and of course really cool, they are demanding when it comes to computer power and design/programming time.
Just in the same way a \"bad\" game will have a smith turn materials into a sword, and a \"good\" game will have him spend a little more time in the various stages of making (blade heating, hammering etc),
a miner can and should, in my opinion, have some stages of his own, if you think a smith does the smelting than i have to break it, it\'s terribly wrong - smithes never had and never should work with non processed ores (not to mention how heavy it is) - and since there obviously shouldn\'t be a special skill to it, i think a miner should take care of the smelting, which enriches this skill quite a bit.
* most of the mined ore is dirt, so the miner gets rid of a lot of it in the smelting process, plus he needs to heat every once in a while the smelting oven/forge, to turn the processed ore into metal ignots. (based on coal/sulphur or so)
* as it has been mentioned well in a couple of previous posts, a lot of finished materials are made of a few different kinds of ore, so to make say mythril, you need to smelt processed silver and iron together, etc ...
this somehow brings sanity if there are a lot kinds of different minable ores.
4. about the guild thing, i\'ve been thinking pretty much the same, mining guilds (or companies as it has been in our past) ussually had mines filled with carts and support wooden frames, and smelters equipment near the mine enterance, those are various things which are made to speed \"group\" mining.
I think this is a good idea, and it can introduce a really good workflow, as roles can be devided in order to have a bulk production rate which gives your guild a good reputation as a supplier (a good way to ease the time it takes to sell the fruits of production).
But it seems guild was reffered to a clan at some posts, and to a guild in others.
I think having a clan owning a mine or so is very terrible, as for guilds i think it\'s great since guilds are the signs of a living economy, (guild is a hierarchal group of people sharing the same job) in my humble opinion seeying self-efficient people who sell their products-completly-made-from-scratch-alone is simply childish, stupid and unrealistic at all.
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Why not have new mines appear by monsters breaking through
Example
Player X is walking along with his group when sudenly they hear a crash and when they go to investigate they fin that a knew mine has opened and spider like monsters are crawling out the hole
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Idealistically the caving in process should have effects on the higher lvls, so cave in = lower highest lvl, but you should be allowed to build beams that hold the mines up (I\'m not so sure wooden would hold a city though) so there should be differrent materials to make the beams.
irrosion from rivers could \"erode\" the dirt which results in discovered ore and ore \"patches\"
obviously to mine deeeper means mine harder ground = more skill required the deeper the less paatches (but more valuable)
speaking of irrosion, river irrosion can cause caveins too
the monster idea WOULD work if it wasn\'t for the fact that they have to get into there somehow so there would actually be an entrance before the new one was started (unless the spider layed eggs and the eggs \"seeped\" through the dirt into an empty chamber(unlikely))
if a cavein occurs, the new top lvl is hard to mine as the old second layer etc. untill the weather has eroded it a bit
one ore idea on irrosion: Irrosion-based quests??? \"put up three granite beams on the coords (x,y) on a certain lvl in the mines else the city will cave in\"????
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*psst its spelled \"erosion\"*
I think that every so often, if a mine is left unattended, monsters will breed in there and they will have to hire a warrior or mage to clear it out so its in working condition once more... The payment for the mage/warrior might be accomplished better in \"barter\" than in conventional money. At least for the warrior, they could trade for that service metal that they have mined and smelted which the warrior could then use to get a new sword from the smithy. yee, overstuffed brain is leaking ideas out my right ear and into the forums :P
josePhoenix
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dude......lol........the guy who started this post MUST play, or have played runescape lol
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Ok Sapphire, you have explained how the mining areas should be, which I agree, they are very good ideas, but you havent explained any other way of actually mining besides the click-click-click method. Do you have any ideas?
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Originally posted by en3r0
you make fun of RuneScape in your topic, yet use its metals in your idea, i really dont think there is such thing as mith/ addy ore. but ive been wrong before. nice ideas :)
God bless,
-Jag
Mythril is from ancient Norse mythology, often used by expert dwarf crafters, since I\'m such an expert :p.
Adamantite is a play on adamantine which means \"Having the hardness or luster of diamond\".
Runes are the old Scandinavian written language, and Runite is probably a heavily copywrighted play on it.
Perhaps instead of telling you the name of the rock you have in your inventory, it should tell you the hardness, cleavage, color, and that type of information. Then you have to look it up in your book of rocks & minerals.
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Looks like a lot of work went into this idea. one thing I disagree on is the geologists handbook part. Many people mining will probably have picked something like...\'Miner\', for a job. Miners have +10 to appraisal of metals, menaing they\'rew not going to need help with the most basic of things. Maybe they could sort the metals into different levels?
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wouldn\'t mining just be..just one click and then u just keep mining and ur inv. will get filled up? instead of click-click-click-click-click etc etc. for 3 hours long?
but maybe u can add something that when someone is a good miner..or everything that will have something to do with mining..that u can \"see\" in some kind of way what materials can be found where.
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Originally posted by THAPRINZE
wouldn\'t mining just be..just one click and then u just keep mining and ur inv. will get filled up? instead of click-click-click-click-click etc etc. for 3 hours long?
No. it\'s more entertaining to see people hurt themselves clicking for hours.
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Like real-time mining, you use the \"attack\" key/mouse (however combat will be like) only you \"attack\" the wall with a Pick-Axe / Shovel etc. , then you break off a \"chunk\" of rock & then you can inspect the chunk to see if it contains anything useful, if it does you have to bust up the chunk into smaller ones until you get something to work with... I would like to see more spread out work like less time spent on using pick-axe & more on refining, that way it is more to do & less repetitiveness... I would also like to see a fractal fit to the wall (if possible) but for implementation you could just have a unchangeable wall then when you strike it with a weapon chunks & stuff fall out & dust using particles anyway @ first it wouldn\'t change the wall geometry but eventually I would like to actually be able to hallow out a cave etc...
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yeah, i can imagine ppl with overstretched fingers.. and finger-RSI.
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Here is a mine-able flat wall:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/mine/Mineing1.jpg)
This is an example of sort of what it will look like after people start mining it:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/mine/Mineing2.jpg)
The vertices on that wall move inward to reveal Chunks or rocks, you can eventually mine them & they fall out of the wall?
These Chunks contain chunks of Gold/Metal/Jewels whatever & can be broken up & extracted:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/mine/Mineing3.jpg)
The dust & small rocks should be able to be gathers & sifted for gold-dust & similar stuff like that?
I don?t know how hard it is to program the editing of wall meshes in sub-object mode, but it would be nice?
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Wow, sometimes you amaze me with your models...
Here we are talking about how the mining should work, and Zeraph goes and makes a whole model with textures for an example...
It looks awesome Zeraph, its perfect.
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Thanks, it is not that much, mostly had the computer randomly add \"noise\" to a GeoSphere mesh for the rocks & a tri patch for the wall... it turned out much nicer then I had expected... :]
Anyway I wonder if it is possible to modify the verts(geometry) of a wall from the server, my guess is that it should be to difficult, but I need to learn how to program in C++
* Puts it on his To-Do list \"Learn C++\" :D *
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Wow Zeraph, that is really nice. Would this have the caves expanding after time tho? because that might not be...good so to say :P
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I\'m no dev, but doesn\'t PS use static world geometry? Some similar things to this I would like to see the ability to alter the world (ala Red Faction only to a greater extent), but that deserves another thread if it has not previously been discussed.
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Ok Sapphire, you have explained how the mining areas should be, which I agree, they are very good ideas, but you havent explained any other way of actually mining besides the click-click-click method. Do you have any ideas?
Perhaps instead of telling you the name of the rock you have in your inventory, it should tell you the hardness, cleavage, color, and that type of information. Then you have to look it up in your book of rocks & minerals.
Problem solved.
one thing I disagree on is the geologists handbook part. Many people mining will probably have picked something like...\'Miner\', for a job. Miners have +10 to appraisal of metals, menaing they\'rew not going to need help with the most basic of things.
Iron Pyrite (AKA \"fools gold\") looks very similar to gold. However, it is not gold. Any new and exspecially inexperienced, and over-confident miner could make this mistake. The book would not only hold information of minerals, but how to test and differentiate. as well, not EVERYONE will know the difference between \'metal-31-8a\' and \'gemstone 82-b\'
Zeraph\'s nice-looking pictures
Well done. Just as i had imagined.
Would this have the caves expanding after time tho? because that might not be...good so to say
Caves would be encased in a inpenertrable rock, thus limiting how large they can be by the total volume of the \"cave\"
I\'m no dev, but doesn\'t PS use static world geometry?
Each fairly-large sized chunk of rock in the \"cave\" would be a model, not geometry. Each model would then have a weight, health (how much punishment can i take before i \"release\" myself? more later on...) density value assigned to it, as well as what it is (dirt? gold? \'metal#813-2a\'?)
A simple physics model would then take over for each model using the weight and density values to it, while the player provides the velocities and direction. Each material would alter the physics model further, simply by putting on a sort of \"magnetism\" effect. This determines how well the material is going to \"stick\" to it\'s neighbors. Dirt would have the worst, while compacted dirt would be better; metals would have the best, if they were formed in a string.
Of course, before all this happens the server spends a little amount of time forming a 3D grid of the dungeon area, and choosing random locations throughout that grid. It\'d then check if a room could be placed there of a certain height, width, and length. It\'d then put more rooms and connecting corridors between them. It would then make all the walls of those room impenetrable (unclearable) rock. Then, it\'d do a check to see if everything could be accessed by doing a flood-fill alogarithm. It\'d then place all the mineral generators needed against the walls of that map, and dirt flood-filling all the other areas as stated in my idea, and with the final touch a entrance at the highest point of the mine.
Maybe even empty areas where monsters are placed, and random items spread throughout the mine as well to provide variety.
And please... Don\'t revive old topics like this one. I was barely able to remember anything...
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dont think that when u mining the wall really has to \"shrink\" because its to difficult + then u gonna mine away whole PS..+ if uhave to inspect every chunk that falls..thats gonna take way to much time..if u need to collect alot of material for an item..so that would only work if u dont need alot of material for an item/weapon...else ur gonna be busy a whole week to get enough for even a sword.
tho this would be more realistic, and i prob wont gonna be a miner in PS..i\'d go for a more simple mining system
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Why would the devs make the process take a weak to get enough for a sword? & I would think that if no-one is in a particular section it would \"Cave-in\" like discussed earlier in this topic, that way there is a constant supply of stuff & the caves are always changing which means they are unmapable @ least in the long run... & there will be unmineable barrios that way you can?t just mane a hole through the world, although that would be cool, you have a shovel & start digging a hole & find a underground cave with animals & crystals & then you start mining?
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sounds cool...tho i think thats a bit to much..for me mining is something ur gonna do..when ur gong away..putting ur character in a mine. start mining..and then go out having a drink urself or soemthing ;)
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Mining is hard working for too less gold, so it doesnt\'t need to be \"cool\". Miners also have a low status, so not too many ppl should do it.
Thats what mining is. btw check Ultima Online, they also have different types of ore like iron ore, gold ore, copper ore, dull copper ore, shadow ore, verite etc.
And UO also has \"mines\", just places caves were you can mine everywere (ground) instead of just rocks (in a not-mine).
You can smelt the different types of ore into metals. The metals can be used to make weapons or other types of items. So miners will sell the metals to blacksmiths.
I don\'t see the point in guild mines, if a guild wants a mine for themselfs they just need to go to a public mine and kill everybody there (or scare them and let them run away). When everybody is gone they can all mine ;) (and ofcourse some need to protect the mine to prevent new players will come and mine).
About the different types of ore: You will have a few common types of ore (iron ore for example). The other types of ore are uncommon of rare. This means that you won\'t be able to find them everywere. You need to know a place were you can find this type of ore (like gold in a gold mine). And ofcourse you\'ll need to keep it secret when you found gold, otherwise alot ppl will mine the gold you found.
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Originally posted by Toadhead
I don\'t see the point in guild mines, if a guild wants a mine for themselfs they just need to go to a public mine and kill everybody there (or scare them and let them run away). When everybody is gone they can all mine ;) (and ofcourse some need to protect the mine to prevent new players will come and mine).
The trouble with something like that is that the question of PvP.
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..somewhat like what i mean is..that mining is boring.. its not something u want to do..all the time..i know everyone wants to go hunt..or craft stuff..which can be cool, but mining will just nvr be cool..in my opinion. so thats why im voting for a very simple mning thing..And the only thing which can be fun of the mining part..is the prospecting.. that with a skill u can tell faster and better what kind of material is in the ground.. so someone with a higher prospecting lvl will find faster and more..material of an higher quality..(gold will be found mroe easily for example)
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Thats just an opinion, others could like mining (like me).
I hope mining will just be hard working, and ofcourse some knowledge were you can find different types of rare ore. An expert miner can make alot of money when he\'s abit lucky. Mining don\'t need to be \"cool\". And mining will earn you more money than hunting!
Toadhead
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:D Well especially if you are the only one doing it...
I hope the ncp market will fluctuate like an npc blacksmith has run out of Iron & hasn\'t found anyone who will sell them some, there aren\'t many of the type of sword he is making so you can sell him Iron for a high price he will raise the price of his swords but since no-one will buy a high priced sword the npc lowers the price gradually... so no-one mining = less Iron = High demand = Miners get rich & sword prices go up = no-one buys sword = sword price goes down = miners still get the better deal (poor npc blacksmith ;) )...
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or maybe...he just goes out mining himself?
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i think you should be able to hire npc\'s to do work!
so if you get enuf money you could have a working crew!
you could start a mining besnes!
thats just my idea tho
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I think the first idea is very good, but something you all forget is the way the game is going to be built up. There arent going to be any classes u can be both the builder, the miner, and a lot of other things, so all the ideas can be implemented, so u wouldnt need a crew or other players to help u, u can even use the ore urself if u have the skillz in smithing that is needed to make what u want so i dont see any probs. If these things were built into the game it would make me want to mine aswell something i have never wanted to as it were to boring clicking away on rocks all the time...
So great idea and no problems with it.
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Soo i read this thread and i think that you guys have some good ideas which are erm mostly useless. We dont need an in depth overall simulation of mining ! Why ?
1. It would be a full time job for the programmers, and it might finally turn out that after few years we have a wonderful mmoms (massive multiplayer online mining simulator). Trust me its not worth an effort.
2. It\'s not going to be fun to do. Now tell me how many people dream of beiing a miner ? Imagine working in a dark corridor all day it might be very hot in there and air is not fresh at all. It\'s not my definition of fun. And it\'s just the first part of crafting process, i would rather make it as simple as it can be. Ofcourse it needs some improvements. But what you\'re aiming is getting a complete realism. And if we would like to follow that route we would get a crafting process that takes month to make a sword.
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Actually that\'s not such a bad idea to make it take a month to make a sword, because you can always make it speed up the process in a game so it doesn\'t take so much time, like maybe it takes less ore to make a sword or faster animations & more ore per minute etc. I would like the process to be involved making you do more different things with the ore then just 1 or 2 things to make a sword. the more complicated it is the less time you will be spending on doing one monotonous thing. Who knows, it may be more interesting to do many different monotonous things for short periods of time then to do 1 thing for a long time.
Who really wants mining to be a monotonous \"/dig gold\" move to right \"/dig iron\" or whatever process, I say that if you have to be there while your Char is mining like we do right now, there should be more to it then this. otherwise I would be happy just typing \"/mine all\" & your Char mines until he is full of stuff, you could go out to launch or have a party, you wouldn\'t actually have to be there. Why not have mining be done when you are off-line? your Char actually does it when you log-off or something. That would be the most simple way for mining to be done... :rolleyes:
I personally want it more involved, like chipping a cave into the side of a mountain, making mine shafts having mines collapse etc, but that\'s just me... ;)
Big Edit Alternative:
I thought of an alternative also, why not have mining be mostly walking? there are deposits you can find deep in a network of caverns, you /dig gold & your char digs for a while until a little meter fills up takes about 15 seconds or whatever & now you have a arm full of ore. you have to transport the ore to the mouth of the cave were you can sell it to a blacksmith or something. there are monsters in the caves so they can kill you when you are transporting ore back/forth. so mining would mostly be transporting ore to the mouth of the cave & that\'s what would take up all the time, you can only hold a certain amount of ore @ a time, no mine carts becouse you wouldn\'t be able to navigate the caverns successfully & there will be no elevators... that\'s what mining is right? getting the ore out of the mine & then refining it later? a specialist looks @ the ore & decides how \"good\" it is depending on how some factors & buys it & you go back down into the cave to get some more. no systems of mine carts because with the current system that\'s not happening anyway...
All that is needed is a long system of caves which I could help model & an NPC to sell the ore to. also the caves+npc selling area should all be in the same sector so you do not have to go to load screen when transporting ore. maybe to prevent /spawn abuse, every time you /spawn or die you loose the ore you were carrying...