PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: lostprophet on August 23, 2003, 11:43:28 pm
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I\'ve seen many a mmorpg put in really innovative ideas but still use the click-and-wait style of combat (e.g. neverwinter nights, run?scape). What\'s the combat going to be like in PS?
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http://www.planeshift.it/player_combat.html
That\'s old but the only official thing I\'ve ever seen.
Basically it seems fairly automated except you can issue a fighting style for your character to take.
I\'d really like to know what KotOR\'s fighting is like, if anyone has played that, and if it would be any good here. Stupid thing don\'t come out on PC till\' November...
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Originally posted by Wedge
http://www.planeshift.it/player_combat.html
That\'s old but the only official thing I\'ve ever seen.
Basically it seems fairly automated except you can issue a fighting style for your character to take.
I\'d really like to know what KotOR\'s fighting is like, if anyone has played that, and if it would be any good here. Stupid thing don\'t come out on PC till\' November...
what is KotOR?
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Star Wars: Knights of the old Republic.
I have the version for XBOX. The combat is simple. Target, click, wait, repeat...etc.... yawn
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Jee they sure make it sound like more... oh well Vagrant Story has fun combat, but I don\'t think that would work in a MMO... hmmm lesee... Valkrie Profile\'s rules... no that wouldn\'t work... maybe something like Grandia\'s combat would work. All the partcipants in combat run on a single timer you can see, and if someone is charging a spell or about to attack, if you hit them hard enough it would cancel their turn. And it took place in a real-time envronment, so a character actually has to move within range of the enemy to hit them, and vice-versa. Yeah that\'s the best one I can think of right now.
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don\'t yal think the devs have already discussed the combat system? I\'m sure they will have already cemented whatever idea they want to use and are currently in the process of hammering it out... although they probably have alot of hammering to do...
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I thought of one goes a little something like this...
Each person has 5 attack and 5 defense slots. There would be a turn every 7 seconds or so. Each slot could be filled at any time.
You click on an attack slot and choose an attack, there would be four basic attacks; high, medium, low, magic. There would be sub attacks that could be learnt or whatever.
You click on a defense slot to choose a kind of defense corresponding to the attacks; duck, parry, jump or magic defense. This way, you can try and predict what they\'re going to use, and the other player can\'t win by using one really powerful move all the time.
I reckon this adds some skill to the combat, because I pesonally find automated combat boring, because people who play 15 hours a day become unbeatable, and combat is essentially boiled down to numbers.
Comments please?
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and skill depends on something that many people who play games dont have - skill/luck/coordination... making a \'skill\' based system would turn this game into a FPS and that is generally harmfull for roleplaying... that is why most mmorpgs use automated combat
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FPS? I\'m not saying that we all get our plasma crossbows out, I\'m just saying I\'m personally bored of auto combat. It gives long-time players too much of an advantage, because all they need to do is click and wait. What\'s the fun in killing a dragon if all you have to do is click on it, go make a cuppa and come back?
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LOL, yuh. The only way that u\'d need to be at u\'r pc is if there is pk\'ing. U wouldnt want to be ripped apart while u were making that cuppa lol.
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Originally posted by lostprophet
FPS? I\'m not saying that we all get our plasma crossbows out, I\'m just saying I\'m personally bored of auto combat. It gives long-time players too much of an advantage, because all they need to do is click and wait. What\'s the fun in killing a dragon if all you have to do is click on it, go make a cuppa and come back?
hehe... thats why the devs have to make sure that monsters for all players (and especially the high end players) dont fight mindlessly and have unique traits and abilities... I\'m sure whatever system is used will require some thought on the players part and cooperation amongst party members... even if you still click and wait... you might not be waiting as long as you think before you have to change \'clicks\'
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This is just my opinion but I think the reason why there are only automated combat systems is to compensate for lag. I dont think the server would be able to keep up with every single bullet, sword slash and so forth coming from 100+ people at once. Even if the server could keep up that would leave lagging players for dead. Now, PlanetSide is advertised as a MMOFPS, I\'m curious as to how well that plays. I think it would be great to take an RPG and turn it into an FPS. Granted there would be no need for many of the stats involved with automated combat but other elements could be added to promote the idea of gaining experience and encouraging people to level up. Just as an example, you could learn some nifty lightening magic that would knock down Mr. Hack N Slash before he even gets within 20 feet of you. But wait, learn the ways of the ninja and learn a chameleon technique and the mage would never have time to react to a knife in the back. There\'s a whole slew of ideas I have about making the game more than just a hacknslash fest but I\'ll post those else where.
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hehe well not to be rude but the devs arnt going to just drop everything they\'ve done to turn this game towards FPS status... that would not only require them to rewrite the coding and conceptual stuff, but also to find a new fan-base since most of the people here are RPG fanatics
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I\'ve played an mmofps called project entropia, the only lag i found there was client side due to my crappy specs. I\'m not suggesting real-time combat, just something to keep you busy, like switching styles or choosing attacks or whatever.
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Generally I find enought stuff to do while in Combat. If your in a group the monsters drop fast enought that you don\'t have time to switch combat styles.
Shadowbane combact is very fast. When your in a group of ten players, you will have to be content with getting one hit/attack per every other monster.
EQ is slower, but you can use the time to actually chat with your group members. Everyone complains of auto attack being boring, but making online friends is a big part of the game.
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Yeah, I suppose it is good to be able to talk during combat. It\'s just that I thought there ought to be more than just stats.
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I like the simple combat system in Elder Scrolls III Morrowind, It\'s point and click style with different moves based on the movement button pressed while clicking. Or you could add too that with a mouse based style of attack commands.
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I wish there could be a freer combat system. Most mmorpgs are heavily based around combat. Wouldn\'t it be nice to be able to use different weapons however we wanted, instead of standing there watching little numbers while we hit the monster, then the monster hits us, then we hit the monster etc. I wish we could use the mouse or keys to actually swipe or stab, or aim. They would only have to be very general, but it would infinitely improve the freedom of the game. Just think, if you saw someone else struggling, you could just whip out a bow, aim, and place a few arrows in the foul beast\'s head. This would also enable you to fight more than one enemy at a time. None of this would have to change experience levels, or weapon stats or anything, it would just involve the player so much more in the combat.
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That would be a horrible system, I\'m sure. It would probably induce rather large amounts of lag, and it would be highly dependant on the latancy of the client.
No reason to dreg up a 4 month old thread...
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\"Free World\" has a nice combat system, and so does \"Morrowind\". Altho the combat system in \"Morrowind\" is more of an FPS, exept with your stats actualy meaning something...
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That\'s nice, real nice, nothing like some warm friendly accpetance to make one want to post even more in a forum.
I started a new thread, but someone else got on my case, so I reposted in here.
I\'m new, so I just wanted to post my ideas. This is a wish list after all. Not like we\'re the Committee of Combat Systems making a final decision. Can\'t a guy dream?
Like whoever it is here, I\'m sick of the usual click on the monster and sit back and wait for someone to win, I just want to be more involved. Sue me.
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The problem, of course, is making combat *interesting* while not over-relying on the \"twitch\" skills of the player. How much of a characters success in combat should be directly related to the combat abilities of the player?
Doing calculations like \"Damage = Strength + Weapon * Random(1..weapon_skill)\" is fairly simple... handling abilities like \"wisdom\" automatically are much trickier. For instance, should an unwise character be able to restrain him/herself from plunging into a hopeless battle? Should an unwise player be able to force a wise character to do the same?
I personally think the most viable system is where the player controlls the intentions of the character, and the game/stats system controls the abilities. When it comes to combat systems, this \"controlling of intent\" could be as loose as \"I want to be fighting that guy\" all the way down to \"swing... now!\" (with the possible consequence that your character actually won\'t be able to swing the sword high or fast enough, leading to a painful and gory death)
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same here...
I played d and d heroes on xbox and was entertained, but it got boring quick...seems the ps team still hasn\'t changed there minds...its only a matter of time before they do though, i mean they may be pig-headed and stubborn, but they\'re not stupid; Well, atleast, i hope not all of them.
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Hmm... Interesting issue you bring up. I hadn\'t realized that, although I may enjoy my proposed system more, what about all the helpless folks out there who don\'t have any reflexes and are more or less in the game for the role playing? While I may not enjoy the system currently in use in most games, many people would not be able to hand a system that actually requires the player to have skill in combat. Maybe you could make a setting to determine how much control you have over a battle.
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that isn\'t the \"strenght\" of the player, that is the accumulated stats of his character dfryer. essentialy the player has just created a stack of numbers with no human relation except the click.
no motor skills, reflexes, sweat.
agony of defeat.
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furthermore, those with crappy rflexes are probably better suited to fishing or mining occupations in game. I mean in real life not everybody has what it takes to be a soldier. like in life, some people are doctors and some are soldiers. Sure they could try to switch occupations but they\'d both be crappy at each others job (until trained)
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I agree. I hate sitting back and watching the battle. But then again, real-time combat is impossible for a MMOG with one or two servers because of lag.
Thats why came up with this idea called a \"Fight Code\".
After both parties agreed to duel, they have ten seconds to enter a four or six character fight code. Ex. Player1 enters \"srtfdr\" as his fight code and player2 enters \"budlsr\". When the ten seconds is over, the player avatars fight according to their fight code received by the server.
Player 1 would Swing Right, Thrust Forwad, then Dodge Right. (notice the ancronyms) \"srtfdr\"
Player 2 would Block Up, Dodge Left, then Swing Right. \"budlsr\"
Numbers could also be used for a fight code if its easier for the server.
Once the animations are done and the damages are allocated, they have another ten seconds to enter their next fight code.
Rinse, Lather, Repeat until someone is dead!
If you typo something the server does not recognize, your avatar just idles and takes the blows. (So skill will be involved as well as involvement and its good for laggers!)
Plus, you dont need to talk anyways when your fighting someone. Only anime battles take a time out to talk or flashback on their parents\' death.
I hope this idea was original, dont knock me if it isnt because I never heard of it before. :P
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the idea is to have intricasy (if i spelled that right)
in game combat. this is basicly just the same turn based crap
prescripted.
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cmhitman said:
the idea is to have intricasy (if i spelled that right)
in game combat. this is basicly just the same turn based crap
prescripted.
Its a lot more intricate than clicking on a target and spamming one really good attack like in SWG.
BTW, this is not turn based since both players are acting at the same time.
If you can, come up with a better combat system that allows creativity, pace, skill, and is good for laggers. Im all eyes to read about it.
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so I send moves, he sends moves and they get executed at the same time...wait ten seconds, and repeat?I\'m bored already.
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no, you have enter a different fight code as the ten second pause comes on, thats the whole purpose for the pause so you have time to type the code. If you want the pace turned up, lets make it 5 seconds.
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there is no tactical edge...I\'m just putting in moves, he\'s just putting in moves...you need to devise a tactical aspect to your system.
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the whole fun in combat is out doing your opponet by:
Smarts
reflexes
not by each player equiping there best weapon and taking turns hitting each other until who ever has most hit pts wins...stupid
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Its not the game that should provide a tactical edge, it should be the player. If the player wants a good defense, he should get a sheild. If he wants a good offense, he should buy a better weapon or buy a bow.
An obvious tactic against a powerful magic user would be to come at him with a melee weapon where their defense is low instead of trying to fry them with your inferior magic skills at a distance.
Fight code could also have instructions for moving built in. The more experienced you are at fighting with a weapon, the more moves you can execute with it using the code.
I wont get too much into detail since Im just trying to get a basic idea across.
And dont call me stupid cmhitman.
You are the one who is trying to implement reflexes into a laggy MMORPG.
Go back to Counterstrike.
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i didn\'t call you stupid....
jeez
So your saying that the best fighter isn\'t really the best fighter but the guy with the best shield or sword or whatever special item he\'s got because hes collected animal skins all day
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Here\'s a thought on how to make your idea a bit simpler to use in the game You have specified time to select what your character is going to do next. Typing could be the only problem. You could have a little menu come up with lots of little buttons under different categories:
Button with Defence Pose on it
Button with Melee Attack pose on it
Button with Magic potion submenu on it which brings up potion stash
etc...
Although I think this would be kind of weird.
I would love an FPS kinda feel to combat intead although slow it down and have skills that will speed up your attack time. Spells need mana replenished and sword swings have a big radius but take a long time to put the sword back into \'ready to swing\' position. Also we shouldn\'t have people fighting all the time so the fighting should be \'prohibited\' inside city limits somehow although You could take it into dark alley where you wouldn\'t be seen and have a fight there. Another time could be night where You can\'t see much. This would be perfect for thieves and others that just want to take your money or kill you for it. To prohibit fighting all the time have fighting simply dissabled inside tavers and main buildings and have \'bounties\' put on people who will be seen by NPC\'s having a fight. NPC\'s could be those cats dressed as policeman or w/e they had back then... = ) Once a bountie has been put on your head for fighting inside of town or killing someone which is going to be even a higher offence. Or taking out your sword for that matter, the people will be notified and will rush to take you down.
Here\'s another idea. I don\'t know if you guyz will take this in account but here is how it would be possible to stop high levels killing low levels. Just have their reputaion decreased or their experience = \\ partially taken away. Some kind of a penalty so high lvl\'s won\'t pick on low ones although if they do and a low lvl kills the high one he will get a looot of reputation or xp or w/ e CB is going to have. Higher reputation will allow you access to more things in the game. Rare armours, NPC\'s liking you, you\'re allowed in special buildings (example would be: I have heard many good things about You, You can pass and choose out of my \'special\' weapons stash because I will know that this sword will be used with an appropriate level of sword mastery... or something like that. = )
Anyway, that\'s just my 2c.
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Rus said:
Here\'s a thought on how to make your idea a bit simpler to use in the game You have specified time to select what your character is going to do next. Typing could be the only problem. You could have a little menu come up with lots of little buttons under different categories:
Button with Defence Pose on it
Button with Melee Attack pose on it
Button with Magic potion submenu on it which brings up potion stash
etc...
Although I think this would be kind of weird.
Thats star wars galaxies on the dot, exept the magic potions etc , and I hate that game. Other than that, I like your words Rus. Alot of similar issues about mugging and bounties is discussed already at http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=7436&boardid=11&styleid=3&sid=eec921a042d20add50dcee2e7a06b2b3. The devs already have a system in mind to prevent people attacking randomly at lower leveled peoples.
cmhitman said:
So your saying that the best fighter isn\'t really the best fighter but the guy with the best shield or sword or whatever special item he\'s got because hes collected animal skins all day
No, I never said anything remotely close to that. Besides, what\'s the purpose of getting an expensive weapon if it doesnt improve your chances in battle? Looks maybe, but not entirely.
With my fight code system, an experienced fighter with a shovel could wipe out a noob with a dragon sword, just as long as he keeps himself at a good defense, which should be easy since the noob does not have very good offensive techniques at his noob status. But a hit from a dragon sword is still going to be a hit from a dragon sword no matter who weilds it.
[Edit# I made those weapons up.]
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With \"code based\" combat the person with the edge is the one that types fastest, not the one that know the game and has actual skill...
In other words, the secritary that types 150wpm can easily kill a person who has been playing the game for a while... i hate it...
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yeah kotor combat or morrowind combat would be great
kotor isnt judt click and wait. what happens is you enter combat with someone else then you have normal attacks and a list of special attacks
melee combat looks really cool because with the normal attacks it looks like it does 3 attacks but it really does one but the first \'fake\' attacks are always blocked making some flashy effects
morrowind combat is pretty good aswell except people with 56k modems and slower internet connections will never hit a moving target and the leveling system for it meens that if you start at level 1 it will take ages to get to level 2 but only a few minutes to go from 99 to 100
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Well there is not lvling in PS, it just gaining skill... And the whole thing about the game laging is just a stereotype people have of online play after joining slow FPS servers... Most MMORPGs have a very very fast server where the ping averages at around 0.005 insdead of the 30-200 you find on FPS servers...
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Look at the possibility of using speed factors for various actions, which can be interrupted at any time to nullify that action and begin a new one.
For example, a character could begin casting a spell in combat that has a casting time of 3 seconds, but after one second she takes a hard hit from her opponent and needs to drink a potion that would cure her. The faster and more experienced the player is, the faster the character will be able to stop her spell (which at this point should have no effects) and drink the healy to avoid splatting.
Also, if the combat system is turn-based, what is the point in using smaller, weaker weapons (that should rightfully be faster) such as daggers, if they are going to attack in the same amount of time as a greatsword?
Oh, and this could help control spellcasting as well. The speed factor of a spell could decrease with the character\'s skill level with that spell type.
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do i sense a hint of second edition in there dinner? no way...^_^
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Turn based roleplaying...cringe...
I know when im going bare knuckle with someone I wait while they decide which side of my face they are going to punch in then I return the favour, so on and so forth... (sacrasm)
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I think that the click and wait combat is best you can get in a rpg game.
It still does not prevent you from shooting at a foul creature fighting your friend, just click on it:)
Any system based on player reflexes, typing speed, etc is not suitable.
In a RPG, you want the possibility for your character to be excellent fighter, mage, or anyhing else you want it to be. Even with an average mouse-pointing ability and a below-average mouse. That\'s what RPG is about.
If you have good reflexes and want to use them in a game, choose a fps game. These are two different things, and you cannot have both at once (unless you make a very specialized game that is attractive to a very small group of people).
The tactic in RPGs ahould be limited to the choice of weapons and armour, and choosing combat style. And it is not like the most expensive weapons are always the best.
For example an expensive magical anti-dragon shield could be of little help in normal weapon combat. An agile character may try to use a poisoned dagger to defeat a fighter with large twohanded sword.
Also some kinds of weapons may be efficient against certain creature and armor types and inefficient against others. In many games, there is stabbing, slashing, and crushing damage, with different weapons and armor for each.
And more experienced characters could use more advanced combat styles or hide in shadows to attack their opponents from the back, denpending on the kind of experience.
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Originally posted by Syzerian
yeah kotor combat or morrowind combat would be great
kotor isnt judt click and wait. what happens is you enter combat with someone else then you have normal attacks and a list of special attacks
melee combat looks really cool because with the normal attacks it looks like it does 3 attacks but it really does one but the first \'fake\' attacks are always blocked making some flashy effects
morrowind combat is pretty good aswell except people with 56k modems and slower internet connections will never hit a moving target and the leveling system for it meens that if you start at level 1 it will take ages to get to level 2 but only a few minutes to go from 99 to 100
I just love KotOR combat and Neverwinter Nights for it\'s moves (fighting animation) I just love lightsaber duels :P
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Hramrach, you DO realise that you just revived a topic that\'s been dead for over a year, right?