PlaneShift
Gameplay => Guilds Forum => Topic started by: Annah on September 01, 2003, 09:02:22 pm
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PLANESHIFT is an Online Role Playing Game that fully supports GUILDS. And means a world where hundreds of guilds have their own goals and are doing only what they want, respecting only their rules? Chaos!
That?s why it should be done a Council that will respond in front of all PLANESHIFT GUILDS.
We have to choose between two names for this ? PLANESHIFT COUNCIL or PLANESHIFT SENATE ? or Yliakum Council / Yliakum Senate. A vote will be done.
The Council will be formed by ten guilds from the PS realm, guilds that earned their respect on these realms.
There will be five OLD guilds and five NEW guilds. They will create laws, make a tax system, organize or take care of other guilds. I think something like this is in Master of Orion III ? there is called Orion Senate.
These are the guilds that will represent all of us (based on Kada EL?s Tavern):
(LIST IN CONSTRUCTION ? we have to check all guilds. I only can tell you four guilds that will sure be in the council ? Arcane Order, Black Order, Circle of Legends and Mirth)
The Council will have a leader. Each guild from the Council can be one; they only have to win the votes (a vote system will be made). A leader can stay only for 4 months (real months), after that another votes will come (a guild can stay as much as they can at the leadership; they only have to win the votes).
Factions can?t be in the council. They will contribute only with their members that are in a guild that is in the council.
I am waiting your replies to support this idea. I will talk with Luca and I will promise you I will make it official. I want that all new guilds to post here to prove themselves that they can be part of the Council. I have more ideas, but I they will be known after this will be official.
Bye.
(And please forget about enemies, allies or personal revenges ? at least on this post ? heard that Wolfmane?)
Annah
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Hi Annah,
Congratulations! I think this is a good initiative, very constructive. Let us talk about the idea more.
Personally I\'m not sure whether we should have ten guilds only and keep others out. My suggestion would be that we either make it possible for more guilds to join once they meet certain criteria, for example 10 proven members that are active etc.
Another way of doing it would be to let each Guild propose one member to the Senate and then to have an official vote on PS forums to get the 10 members selected. A vote could be held every 4 - 6 months.
Thirdly I think the Senate\'s first task should be to work out a Guild Code of Conduct that all guilds will be invited to sign. That will give the Senate some \"teeth\" if a guild(s) fail to uyphold the rules of the Code of Conduct which they have signed.
Come on everybody, let us brainstorm this!
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Speaking as a member of the Arcane Order here - the council should also create a process with which to bring new guilds into the council. Of course there will be requirements that will have to be agreed upon, but I think one of which should be a strong roleplaying initiative within each new guild ;)
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You say about Master of Orion III, but not much. You didn\'t tell that votes of races in there wasn\'t equal. The were equal to population of that race. I think it\'s very good thing. We can do that but not population of Race :P, but how many active members the guild have.
PS. All guilds will have their seat in that senate
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Personally I\'m not sure whether we should have ten guilds only and keep others out. My suggestion would be that we either make it possible for more guilds to join once they meet certain criteria, for example 10 proven members that are active etc.
We should propably expand this idea Drilixer. I believe all guilds that meet certain criteria should be represented. Maybe in a General assembly with one vote each. Then this assembly votes for 10 members that is the Senate.
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Very good ideas Wolfmane. I am happy we finally finished with the threats :)
But I have to say it won\'t be a wise idea to have many guilds in the Council ... at least not at the start.
The subject is still open ... share your ideas.
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I say the strong guilds now should get together and be permanent members - much like the United States, France, Russia, China and (who is the other one lol) in the UN
Then others can be added on as we go - the others will have to meet whatever criteria the founders decide on
Edit: hehe I\'m seeing alot of similarities to the UN here... so up cmes the question... what will joining this council do for a guild? What do you expect the council to deal with? Why should we create the council? Is it\'s primary goal to \'build peace\' like the real UN?
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Yes ... Drilixer ... I think we should be united :)
And about that what should we do ... etc. , that\'s why we are all here :P
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as the \'thinker\' behind this thing I\'m just wondering what you think we would be united against?
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united against crappy \"headstrong\" guilds who plan on taking to much land and such. probibly to hold peace. I would like fo the Gnomes to represent the merchants of ps. although we are few in numbers we will soon grow.
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hmmm very interesting idea...
Just have to hope the council dont do as much futile bickering as the real UN...
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tehehe. like treebeard people i can\'t remember there race it starts with a u i think. they take like 3 hours to decide the hobbits are not orcs.
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Tree-Ents any self respecting gamer, roleplayer, and Tolkien fan should know that... NOW GET BACK ON TOPIC!
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Ok ... why do you guys think only at war? We will create trading routes and things related to trading (trader) guilds ...
We really can do everything. Think a little, like in the real life. And so far, I really thank Arcane Order for the support, esspecially Wolfmane.
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Well, if it gets worked out it will be good I think. But then again there will be the problems like the others have pointed out, there will be constent disagreements which may lead to arguments and alliances against others in the same thing. So in other words it would take a great leader and guild representitives working hard to keep things together.
Now me, I love that kind of stuff (In fact I was planning on setting something up sort of like it for non-guilds, so we could become official), but others really can\'t handle it...so as long as the right people are doing the right jobs and work hard at it, it might end up being great.
EDIT: I would also like to point out that the instability of guilds at this point will be a problem
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Perhaps it would be a nice idea to do this in the \'theme\' of the government of the game as explained here (http://www.planeshift.it/setting_government.html).
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It is my opinion that the Yliakum government and the inter-guild council should be seperate. The octarchs etc. have power over only Yliakum, and although other cities will surely have governments we need a united guild organization.
Annah, I just have to say that you read my mind. I have been thinking of this for about a week. Good job! And great ideas everyone else! :D
I think that every guild of sufficient size should be permitted to have membership. And yes, there should be a few permanent members. Here is what comes to mind atm:
Mirth, Black Order, Arcane Order, CoL, LW, Explorers and possibly Defenders. Sorry if I missed any big guilds. :P
Without an organization of this sort PS will dissolve into chaos before long. If guilds have Mutual Protection Pacts then a simple skirmish could trigger a world war. (Not that that wouldnt be cool.)
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hey if youguys make a councilcan i be the law?
i have the base to opporaite so i chould bethe police
XD XD XD
its a fair idea if we can work round it
planeshift CIA......muhahahaha 8)
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Originally posted by Half_Pint
It is my opinion that the Yliakum government and the inter-guild council should be seperate. The octarchs etc. have power over only Yliakum, and although other cities will surely have governments we need a united guild organization.
Annah, I just have to say that you read my mind. I have been thinking of this for about a week. Good job! And great ideas everyone else! :D
I think that every guild of sufficient size should be permitted to have membership. And yes, there should be a few permanent members. Here is what comes to mind atm:
Mirth, Black Order, Arcane Order, CoL, LW, Explorers and possibly Defenders. Sorry if I missed any big guilds. :P
Without an organization of this sort PS will dissolve into chaos before long. If guilds have Mutual Protection Pacts then a simple skirmish could trigger a world war. (Not that that wouldnt be cool.)
I totally agree with you, all Guilds with sufficient members should be allowed, but like Half_Pint said some Guilds should be in permanent. Then there\'s little chance things will go wrong cause those Guilds will be like a kind of Supervisors.
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A world war wouldn\'t be planeshift ;)
The United Guilds is a great idea Annah.
Anywho, all guilds should have a seat in the lower group.
10-15 of the bigger guilds would be voted in to the upper group.
The UG could help new guilds, send out peacekeepers, aid those truamatized by randomish organized acts of n00bishness, and etc...
Of course we will still have to figure out which guild is France, what guild is the UK and what guild is the US. :P
Btw, thx for including us Half Pint :)
Edit: Naturally Seperot would work for the guild with the biggest army (USA)
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Originally posted by seperot
hey if youguys make a councilcan i be the law?
i have the base to opporaite so i chould bethe police
XD XD XD
its a fair idea if we can work round it
planeshift CIA......muhahahaha 8)
That reminds me of something grono tried getting set up but I don\'t think she could work it out...too bad though, it was a good idea
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i could do financial aid :)
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I\'d like to say that Mirth would be proud to be a part of this organization.
I propose that we set up a forum for the UG, because it will take a lot of discussion to get this off the ground. 8) I can create one on the Mirth forums page if you want.
I also propose that one member of each guild be selected as ambassabor to the UG. These people can then lay down the framework for the organization.
Maybe I\'m being hasty but it would be great to get this started before fighting comes out in CB. :P
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Yes, will we need a forum.
LW members reading this, I propose myself or grakrim to be the ambassador to UG.
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I am not sure if our guild is large enough yet, but we are growing at a rather fast rate...
But including Mercenaries as a political power maybe an odd idea, even once/if we do represent a larger number of players. I am not sure how involved in peace talks we would be, let?s face it, for us Mercenaries guild wars mean business...
But as a player, I love the idea... and I would at least like for our guild to be represented. Even if we mostly push for war and are quite corrupt insofar as our vote may be bought like any of our other services?
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Certain warlike countries are in the UN. I dont see why warlike guilds shouldnt be in the UG.
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Originally posted by Zephyrus
Even if we mostly push for war and are quite corrupt insofar as our vote may be bought like any of our other services?
hehe no no no! have none of you ever done \'model UN\' simulations? It\'s really good for your roleplaying skills... anyways... remember when you are roleplaying the Mercenary guild trying to join this thing you don\'t say that you are at the core of all the problem sin the world and are happily egging them on! no! you point out that you are well versed in \'mediating\' conflicts and would be happy to help out in any way possible during future conflicts... provided the proper coucil funding for transportation etc etc :)
about a \'Council Army\' -> this should be done like in the real UN where members volunteer forces for the common good in situations that they want to help out in. There is no actual \'Council\' force since it only relies on the means of it\'s members.
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i could get a page running for the ug. i would need a little helper to set up the frums though :) they always baffle me so i got wahtever i have on my page and i like it. a lot. but nobody ever seems to post.
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Well, it seems that we need forums. I have set up a new forum on the Mirth forums site: http://members.lycos.co.uk/mirthps/Community/
Anyone may post in the Everyone Welcome board, but only guild ambassadors will have access to the Ambassadors board. Ambassadors who create an account will be given permissions to the Ambassadors board within 24 hours.
I ask that the leader of each guild posts in the UG forums who their guild ambassador is.
This forum is only temporary (until we get a UG web site)
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hehe no no no! have none of you ever done \'model UN\' simulations? It\'s really good for your roleplaying skills... anyways... remember when you are roleplaying the Mercenary guild trying to join this thing you don\'t say that you are at the core of all the problem sin the world and are happily egging them on! no! you point out that you are well versed in \'mediating\' conflicts and would be happy to help out in any way possible during future conflicts... provided the proper coucil funding for transportation etc etc
yeah... ummm... what he said, now let us in!
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nobody has said no yet.
i will start a page soon. not today because i have homework and other work to do.
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I could make the webpage... But lets see who else offers...
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so ive been demoted :)?
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Raadsel Forscher will be a part of the council if it is requested of us. We are a cartographers and scholars guild, so that is what we would be based upon within the council. Here is some more info on our guild, so that you better understand us.
?theria
?theria:
Our guild plans to become a great civilization where all learning is its focus. There are four things that our guild revolves around, we like to call these things the \'Four Pillars\'. These \'Four Pillars\' are Learning, Knowledge, Beauty, and Art. Two of these \'Four Pillars\' are reffered to as the \'Greater Pillars\'. The two \'Greater Pillars are\' Learning and Knowledge. These are the \'Greater Pillars\' because without them we could not create worthy Beauty and Art. The \'Greater Pillars\' focus on two things Cartography and Texts. Cartography, is very important in our kingdom. Cartography is everywhere, whether it be on paper or in your mind. We wish to build a great Kingdom founded on these four pillars. A kingdom so great and magnificent that it is reffered to as the center of all learning and knowledge. We WILL rise to be known by every walk of life. OUR civilization WILL be called ?theria and WE shall be called the ?THERIANS.
?theria\'s Purpose:
?theria was created for those that desired peace over war. ?theria longs for learnings of all kinds, knowledge of all things, art created with a passion, and beauty beyond explanation. Fellow cartographers and explorers are always welcome within our land, for it is our guilds purpose to learn from our world, and that of others. If your life\'s focus is on productivity and helping your fellow man succeed then ?theria welcomes you with open arms. ?theria is not only a city, and more than just a place, but a way of life for those who accept it. We Atherians are a peaceful civilization for the most part, but war does come to us sometimes. We will only participate in a war if a fellow guild that is allied with us comes under attack and they request assistance of us, or if our guild comes under attack. We may be a peacful people but we do have a large army ready at all times. If we were merely a civilization with books and paintings, any barbarous nation could easily wipe us from the pages of history. So if you are looking for a dream of tranquility, or wish to defend this dream, then ?theria beckons your presence.
Concerning our Army:
Our army is as majestic as the dawning of the sun. It rises to the call of battle and sets on the sides of our enemies the mark of humiliation. There is no enemy who does not know the fact that our army will cause them great loss. Our army is composed of humans, who dress unifomly and march just the same. We are a peacful civilization but if we are ever threatend or a friend is ever in need we will respond, with great forces. The army leader is in charge of all the armies of ?theria. He must be capable of creating good strategies and plans of attack. Another good quality of an army leader is the ability of a good defensive tactics, which are vital when our kingdom is under a surprise attack or other such situations. In very rare situtations the army leader may call upon the peoples of ?theria for help in a war, but this will very rarely be brought upon the peoples of ?theria. If there ever comes a time where we may need the peoples help all of the leaders of Raadsel Forscher and the guild leader must agree to doing so. The Army leader must posess great fighting and thinking skills. If an army leader is ever accused of wrong doings he will be confronted with these accuses. If the army leader is ever guilty of wrong doing he will be removed from the guild and banished from ?theria forever, this is subject to all leaders if accused of being guilty or is guilty. When there comes the time that we have no army leader, for whatever reason, the leaders of Raadsel Forscher will control the army for however long it takes to attain a new army leader.
Concerning our Scholars:
Our scholars are the greatest learners of knowledge. They study ancient text, create theories of our world, study maps, and create more texts. Without our scholars we would fall to the unknown as other civilizations have done before us. If you ever see one of our scholars you will know that you have met a well learned man. The scholar leader is the greatest of all our scholars and must be capable of creating flawless texts and be able to understand what other texts mean exactly. The scholar leader must be able to understand all of the planets, the history of the planets, and develop theories of what has happened in the past. If the Scholar leader is ever found guilty, or accused of being guilty, of anything he will be judged as all leaders are.
Concerning the Forscher:
The Forscher are ones who know terrain of the planes, and have explored many places. Forscher are most always well-developed rangers who do their job very well. They know many secrets, can navigate harsh terrains, and can slip by most creatures undetected. The forscher leader controls both cartography and exploration. He must be very fluent in both of these catagories and know much about the terrain of the planes and various important maps. The forscher leader is a very important person within our guild because of guilds foundations are built upon knowing all about the land by means of cartography and exploration. The forscher leader must be very good at creating precise maps of the planes and know of all the important routes to travel while explroring. All texts and maps are open to use by the forscher leader because there may be valuable information concerning maps and other things. If the Forscher leader is ever accused of being guilty or found guilty he will be judged as all leaders are.
Concerning our Artisians:
Artisians in the land of ?theria are greatly respected for their incredible works of art and skills in creating the most well-crafted objects in all the planes. There are two forms of art within ?theria. The first being visual arts, which consist of paintings, food, armor, and other such things. Secondly, martial arts, which is the study of combat without the aid of weapons. The art leader has control of visual art, and martial arts. He must be a master of these two arts and be capable of teaching others how to best succeed in them. Teaching others how to use these arts is very important because once one becomes a master of one of the arts he is given a gift by his mentor in whatever way he chooses. Very rarely a master of one of the arts is asked to complete a task or asked to help better the land of ?theria in some way, by the king of ?theria, this is a very honorable and an incredible request. If the art leader is ever accused of being guilty or found guilty he will be judged as all leaders are.
Concerning Atherians:
All are welcome to become one of us. We do not believe in a more dominant race. If you ever walk through our majestic gates you will be welcomed and asked to remain with us for as long as you please. Come and stay with us, come with us into our rise of greatness.
Welcome, to the center of all learning, dear traveler, stay with us. For you are in ?theria.
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so ive been demoted ?
Not being rude but your site was made by freewebs... lol
maybe that was rude...
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Er, welcome to UG. Plz post in the forums I created for UG.
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Mr. Kinoss that Merits it\'s own thread. We welcome you to the UG. Good luck with your guild!
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gnomes are slimy little creatures that come from the forest or little gay men that sit in peoples garden and \"protect\" them!!! so what are you talking about being a gnome and if u r saying dwarves are the same things as gnomes... you are a disgrace to the whole race calling yourself a GNOME!
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Originally posted by Zephyrus
so ive been demoted ?
Not being rude but your site was made by freewebs... lol
maybe that was rude...
sooo i just neded it done fast. im rebuilding it. and it is fun :)
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umm..you guys seem to be moving awfully fast...how about getting a little bit more organized before you jump too far?
dude, Kinoss! your still alive! ;)
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That is why I set up the forums, so we can discuss it.
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We seem to be slowing down right now kiern.
But I fear I will have to do much reading upon my return from school tommorow.
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Ok, cool, there was just way too many things going on at once for a little bit there ;)
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ingenious ideas, and revolutions usually happen quickly and chaoticly, lets hope this is ingenious and revolutionary
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This seems to me to be nothing more than an invented way for a few guilds that exist now to make a structure in which they stay powerful after LOTS of other people/guilds are playing PS...
Careful what you wish for.... :)
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Well, you can\'t be sure what their going to be until they get things more worked out and organized...it could turn out that way (which, I will admit, is more than likely) but it could also turn out to be entirely different.
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After looking at Acraig\'s reply and the link, I believe that there is no need to set up a Senate..it seems the devs planned for this already and if i read it right then the devs will already have laws made and will take up the position of Octarchs themselves(as it should be).It looks to me what we can do is become politicians and run for the offices of Vigesimi and help them deal with already existant laws.I have a problem with guilds writing laws to be governed by but no problem with members of any guild being part of an already existent government structure. Maybe what we should be doing is finding out what laws are already made..read up on them..and try to fill offices instead of recreating another government.The voting system laid out in annahs original post would still work with this..4 months in office and then we vote again for another Vigesimi.It would be up to the guilds who would run for office...but it would still allow all guilds to be in this system.
See how i see it is that we live in a country already and all the guilds are under the assumption that they can own a kingdom....it doesn\'t seem to be the case,the guilds are more like \"businesses\" than individual \"countries\" and already have laws to follow made by the counties founder...so there isnt a need for a UN type council since we wont be owning countries.We will be more like residents that \"buy houses on Talad street in the county of Hydlla in the country of Yliakim. We will be following the laws of PS.
Guilds now believe they will be buying \"the country of Circle of Legends\" or \"the country of Arcane order\" and need a UN senate to keep conquerors out...doesnt seem the case.The guilds are more like \"the business of Black Order, we sell appliances\" if you get what i mean.
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OK, here is my opinion on this whole thing...
It seems to me that this whole senate idea takes away from the base of any MMORPG. I mean, the idea has good intentions. I do feel, however, it will take away from the freedome within a guild. It reminds me of a HUGE alliance where no one has a say in allying. It almost reminds me of a sub-government and rendering the whole government system that the Devs have set useless.
I think that it is up to a guild to decide weather or not it will tax its members. I think that the guild should have a choice in what it does. I think that a guild, within reason, should be able to do what it wants.
NO, I am not saying that guilds should have free reign over PS, but that is why the origional government was set up... was it not?
This whole senate thing would be a good idea if the joining of the senate was optional, and not forced upon the members of the game. I think that will shun a lot of people away from playing PS if this is implimented.
There could be a way to use this plan yet, however. If some chat code was implimented for an Official alliance, guilds could ally with eachother and form a senate on their own.
For example: Chat Code = /guildally {name of guild}
both guilds type that in and boom... an alliance is made. This would open up a whole set of new commands under a /ally command
/ally {command} {position} {name}
/ally vote selectmen Dameon
In conclusion, if this whole senate thing was Optional, it would work out, in my opinion, much better :D
Dameon
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i think it is optional though, i was never under the influence that it wasn\'t
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Originally posted by Vengeance
This seems to me to be nothing more than an invented way for a few guilds that exist now to make a structure in which they stay powerful after LOTS of other people/guilds are playing PS...
Careful what you wish for.... :)
hmmm.. i think i shall meditate upon this
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I have to agree with Sabrewulf on this:
By comparing the Council to the UN, you are comparing the guilds to countries. The guilds however, aren\'t countries, they are like gangs or other social groups within a county (Yliakum). In this country of Yliakum, there is already a settled authority, made by the devs (octarchs). Under these octarchs are the Vigesimi, they are players that keep law and order in Yliakum. With these vigesimi and octarchs to enforce the law, there should be no need for such a council.
However, if the system of octarchs and vigesimi would prove to be inadequate (or chaotic due to many vigesimi; 160 in total), such a council could act as a backup. But if the system that the devs planned is adequate, I see no use for a planeshift council.
Skizzik
p.s. Druke, isn\'t your sig a bit... excessive?
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I have thought on this and really, there is no real reason to do this, as it has been said, there is already a government that will involve the players. Although I very much love the initiative that the players have taken towards this (not to mention the peace). Perhaps we can all put our heads together as the greater guilds of PS and make PS unique with its community.
P.S. Yea i was to tired to work any more so i just laoded it for the night, like my new one?
edit: got a lil off topic, and lots of typos
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Yup, that\'s better, thanks.
I agree that the initiative is good.
Another aspect of this Council would be that players and guilds would be restricted in their freedom. Now I don\'t know if you guys read the interview on warcry, but Luca Pancallo really put emphasis on the \'free\' part of PS, where you can play for free, and are free to do whatever you want, you don\'t have to live up to any standards.
/me looks up the interview, scrapes his troat and speaks loudly:
Originally stated by Luca Pancallo
Having the virtual world access free for a player is what we feel is needed to really experience the game without boundaries and constraints.
Such a council would put constraints upon the player and his or her guild. This would go against the principles of Planeshift, now these principles aren\'t necesarilly my principles, but I agree that a player should be able to do (to a certain degree) what (s)he wants. If such a player was to really cross the line, there would be the authorities to deal with him/her.
Originally posted by Annah
They will create laws, make a tax system, organize or take care of other guilds.
If a guild would raise high/low taxes, or not take care of itself properly, nobody would suffer from this, since players choose to be part of this guild. The laws would be taken care of by the octarchs and vigesimi.
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How come it is only so few people who can actually see the flaws in this kind of project? I mean, yes yes it is a good idea, and as Kiern mentioned somewhere on page 2, I was even into starting something like this very long ago... Didn\'t really work out tho...
Anywho, as Annah says, this council thing will create laws, treaties and mayhaps even trade routes... I, for one, would just overlook any law from this council that I find inappropriate for my needs, and I believe many others would too, because for the first, what kind of means would you use in enforcing the laws and rules of this council? Boycotting a guild if they do not wish to do as you do? Well, that would be a solution, but of course, what can you do to enforce that this guild is actually being properly boycotted?
Or treaties - Well, if two guilds decide to kill eachother, I believe it is not up to the other guilds of PlaneShift to stop them, is it? Honestly, I wouldn\'t do jack if the Arcane Order and Explorers Guild decided to go to war. I\'d just go on with my stuff, or if \"everyone\" decided to go on an all-out war on the Black Order, I wouldn\'t care the slightest bit, but of course, that\'s just my personal oppinion. Maybe there are these peaceloving fools out there, who thing that a society full of human beings can really co-operate and that the whole world will eventually be a peaceful place... Dream on people...
Or if you want to make a trade route from one place to another. Would that not be up to the two guilds who owns the places, and the guilds owning the land travelled upon? Sure sure, other guilds could give their oppinions, but would it still not be up to the guilds involved to decide what happens to their lands? I mean, Mr. President of the U.S. still decided to go to war with Iraq even though many others said they did not like the idea. And maybe that\'s just a wicked example, but it\'s the truth...
That\'s just some part of my negative point of view on this subject, but I\'m sure that one of those optimists will come and put me on fire with a flame, you know? :P Anywho, that is probably what I have to say for now... So... Good luck I suppose. You\'re gonna need it.
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Grono: Good post.
A group of us have been discussing this for a while now and I personally don\'t think it would work.
It would take a few pages of typing to explain why and I don\'t have the energy, but in short, I think that a council is not needed unless the dev\'s official government setup falls through.
This council just seems like a powertrip for a few select guilds... just to give you the power to rule the rest of us. I for one want nobody outside my guild to tell me what I can and cannot do whilst playing this game. Those rules are up to me, my guild leader and the PS dev team. Those are the only rules I will follow- I won\'t allow people I have never even met to restrict my fun.
And I\'m sure many other people will share the same view. I honestly can\'t see something like this working out, because I\'d rather keep it simple and enjoyable- not complicated and a \'pain in the arse\' like real life.
Step back for a minute, take a deep breath and look at just what you\'re proposing here. It won\'t work.
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Interesting points, I am losing enthusiasm for the idea to be honest, but I will discuss it with the other Mercenaries...
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LOL. Public opinion sure changes fast. :D
First off, the way many of you are seeing this organization is not the way I picture it. I see this as an excellent way to prevent exploitation of newbies and smaller guilds by those who are larger. I\'m disappointed that you haven\'t realized yet that Mirth isn\'t interested in a \"power trip\". We just want to have fun, explore, and help out where we can. Quite frankly, if the Yliakum government can prevent abuse by larger guilds, I will support it instead.
My concern is that the Yliakum government will not have power outside of the stalactite. Supposedly there will be other citites, and I\'m sure each guild will have some members spread across the world. Unless the Yliakum government has power outside, there will be a need for an inter-guild organization that isn\'t limited by city boundaries.
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From what I\'ve seen ... most of you really didn\'t get the idea. I will work and post a more easy to learn version ...
And who said it will be like a big alliance? In the council can be allies, or even enemies ...
Like I said, try Master of Orion III and check the Orion Senate ... k?
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I\'d just like to say a few things that are included in my vision for this:
1. Membership wouldnt be mandatory (obviously)
2. two enemy guilds could still belong at the same time
3. You wouldn\'t have to do as the council decided unless your guild belonged, if you dont want a council telling you what to do no one\'s forcing you to join.
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Good posts everybody, some of them are very convincing.
If we do decide to get this project underway, we will have to take the time to make sure it turns out right. I\'m quite sure the \"main\" guilds, that is the powerful ones, have no intention of ruling all of Planeshift. However, the system must be carefully designed to prevent such a thing from happening. One such measure would be to maintain the rotation of the upper council seats regularly. Another would be to give all guilds one vote. Since \"mega-guilds\" are few, the majority of the council could easily be made up of the more common small ones. As to the authority of the UG, some form of dues would have to be collected to maintain an army and fund improvements. Stopping guild-wars is entirely unnesscessary, and would not be done. The UG would however keep track of wars and alliances for the convience of the public. All conversations, hearings, debates, whatever they\'re called would have to be public.
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Originally posted by Mogura
It won\'t work.
You know, sure there are some problems, but it can be worked out as long as someone does it right...don\'t just put something off because you think no one will get it to work and you yourself are unable to come up a way for it to.
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The UG would however keep track of wars and alliances for the convience of the public. All conversations, hearings, debates, whatever they\'re called would have to be public.
*Monketh*
Sounds more like historians or reporters than UN ambassadors.
Anyway count COL out of this.We don\'t want this.
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Very well then Sabre.
Basically that\'s what I was saying kiern. It must be done right.
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Only one question! Why is anarchy bad? Has enyone seen a senate in a another MMORPG? (well... two questions) I havent!
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i have. in basically every game.
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And there are players who rule the world?
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I think this could be very interesting, and actually make the game more exciting :D But I think the real counsil design should be worked on until it\'s as perfect as it can be. I\'d suggest several meetings through mIRC or something between choice members from the community and development team who can discuss and debate each other\'s ideas in an intelligent way.
I think guilds should function independantly, but with a few (depending on size) members that they can choose to represent them in the counsil if they want. These chosen members will represent the guild\'s needs and propositions.
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Now, my idea for a big counsil would be made up of \"layers\".
\"Lower Layers\":
There are two lower layers.
One is made up of choosen citizens from every city. In the citys, people will vote for who they want to represent them (the candidates can be anybody and they choose whether to run of not).
The other is made up of guild members, chosen from the other guild members. However the individual guilds want to choose is their own buisiness.
Here bills, truces, issues and other stuff like that are created and debated.
\"Middle Layer\":
This \"Middle Layer\" is made up of both guild members and voted-in citizens, one per guild/city. In this layer, bills, truces, etc are checked to to make sure everything jives with everybody else, bills are turned into laws, issues addressed, truces made official, etc.
\"Upper Layer\":
This grease for PS\'s mechanics. Apart from being figure heads for the goverment, they make sure everything goes smoothly within goverments, and have the power to officially declare war. I figure that this \"Upper Layer\" will be made up of only a few members (probably atleast ten though). Perhaps they each are responsible for certain regions in PS\'s world, and each city within that region. They create trade-routes, manage their economy, have the final say in important manners (addressing monopolys and such), etc. These members can induct other people into the \"Upper Layer\" if they feel it is fit, whether the member wants them as an advisor, companion, or whatever.
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That was just an idea for the core workings of a counsil, and it was very rough and certainly doesn\'t cover evrything that would be needed to run a world, but it\'ll do for now :D Just my 2 cents.
C&C welcome!
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Originally posted by Plaidmonkey
I think this could be very interesting, and actually make the game more exciting :D But I think the real counsil design should be worked on until it\'s as perfect as it can be.
Yes, exactly!
Really good ideas Plaidmonkey
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we should just meet in a quakenet channel
liek #pscouncil *wink wink go there wink wink*
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Taxes were mentioned in the first post. Nobody will join if they have to pay money. 25% of the money made by the United States goes to the UN. This shouldn\'t be like that. A guild council should not cost money.
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Fine then Davis, nothing will get done and the ug will be powerless. Fees can be reasonable you know.
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well, he doesn\'t say much about the \"tax system\" so i\'m not really sure what it implies...if it means ALL guilds should provide then no, that does not seem right to me...but if it means guilds that participate in it, then maybe that might work.
After all, they are being given some power, and if their not willing to give something up for it to make it easier for them to accomplish their goals, then I see no reason for them to be participating in the first place.
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My thought exactly kiern, it would be for those who join it of course. Dues is a better word. To tax other non-ug guilds would be a crime.
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This is why I created the forum. If every interested guild sends someone to discuss this I am sure that we can come to an agreement that most of you will like.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/mirthps/Community/
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Wolfmane wrote an excellent document, shall I post it?
[Edit: Got booted off, gave up, and went to bed. Right after this post.]
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certiainly, she wassupposed to, guess she dint get to it
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anything thats like the un is bound to fail just like the un did when the states went into irac
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So, if I understand this correctly now...
-It is not mandatory for guilds to join this Council.
-Guilds in the Council may be enemies with other guilds in the Council as they see fit.
-If you sign up your guild with the Council, you pay them taxes.
-The Council doesn\'t dictate what any guild can or can\'t do unless that guild is part of the Council.
So... what exactly is the point in this? Isn\'t it just a glorified alliance of various large guilds with heaps of extra complexity? Only able to rule itself and it\'s members, like any other guild, except with a tonne of rules and regulations just to make it all so much more difficult to manage?
I must be missing something.
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Sounds like a great summary to me, Mog. :)
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I cant answer for ShadowHand, since we havent discussed this within the guild yet, but I will personally never put my foot in a Senate created and controlled by players. I fail to see how this could be anything else than a fancy way for the bigger guilds to control the smaller ones.
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Well...since Annah has yet to expand on what he is talking about I don\'t see how you can be making summaries, these are just ideas
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Such a \'council\' would have no say over anyone that is not in the council, and any guild that would be commanded to do or don\'t something they\'d rather do the other way, then that guild could easily leave the council. IMO, there is no use in giving the council it\'s own army, since nobody \'belongs\' to the council, they \'belong\' to their respective guilds. These guilds have armies, and those armies can be used to enforce peace wherever it is not necessary and it\'s not the council\'s right to intervene.
That is one thing that people tend to forget, what right does the council have to enforce \'peace\' between two or more guilds that want to go into war? None! So then it is nothing more then an alliance between the guilds that are involved, since the council should not decide over things that go on outside the guilds in the council.
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I don\'t understand really what power will have this UG (if it\'ll be created).
Create trade route? What do you mean?
What kind of law could it make?
How can it apply the law? It can\'t caught a character to jail...
Tax? To do what?
I don\'t relly understand the aim of this council.
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We should get a rough idea for a counsil structure first, then go talk about things like tax (if any money is needed, it wouldn\'t need to come from a tax system...or atleast not taxing everybody in the entire PS world, just certain people or organizations) and such, and alter the structure acordingly.
Let\'s just hear some ideas as to why a counsil would benefit the PS world (just trying to bring some order here; if we can\'t discuss a counsil rationally and with some order, how could one expect to be of any use if it\'s implemented? ;( ):
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Originally posted by druke:
ok here is the polocy Wolf typed up, i would like it to be known the AO is still under consideration of joining..
not the big paper thingy
_______________________________________________________________
Proposal for structuring of a Council for all guilds in PS.
In this thread a general proposal has been made for the creation of a council for Guilds in the PS Community. This idea has been discussed and amended in a discussion by various interested parties, representing several guilds, on the PS IRC channel #planeshift @ Quakenet on 01/09/03. As a result of that a summary of the proposal as it stands now is posted here for further discussion.
General:
Those supporting this proposal are asked to post here to express their support for it. Of course amendments and supplemental proposals by all guilds and interested parties are very welcome in order to continue this debate and make it fruitful. A very important comment by Vengeance earlier in this thread is quoted here and should be taken very seriously in this discussion.
Policy:
It should be clear that AO and whichever other guilds want to subscribe to this Policy (please post it if you do) will only support this initiative if the following are adhered to:
The Guilds Council (GC) will not be structured or used as a ?power-mongering? instrument for a few guilds (large and/or well established) to the detriment of other (newly established/newer/small) guilds.
The GC is an open body for ALL guilds meeting the basic requirements.
The basic requirements of membership is to ensure that those guilds that participate are serious, established and won?t disappear after 3 weeks again. However, this is by NO MEANS aimed at preventing new guilds from starting up. To the contrary it is aimed at helping new guilds to attain the qualities needed to become established and growing guilds.
The GC will act as an association that can give out a ?seal of approval? to new guilds once they have met the requirements of membership, in essence a recognition by other guilds as an established and functioning guild.
Membership of the CG is VOLUNTARY and no guilds will be forced or pressurized into joining it. Any Guild can at any time decide to terminate its membership of the CG without suffering any penalty or retribution by the CG or its members.
All decisions made by the CG will ONLY be binding on those guilds that are members of CG. In this way the Guild Council will only survive and be relevant if it in fact provides a useful service to the large majority of Guilds in the PS Community.
In this initial phase the CG will only pertain to PS Forum and not to the game of PS and the world of Yliakum. Once it has been tried out to see if it meets expectations and is not abused by some to the detriment of others a discussion could be taken up about, if it should be expanded to also function in game.
It is proposed that these policy statements (in this or an amended form) be the Founding Document of the CG and act as a guideline for the actions of the GC.
The basis for the proposal is a reference to the structure of the UN in RL, of course that is only a point of reference and the actual structure will be made to fit the PS Community. The proposal so far is as follows:
The Guilds Council will consist of two basic structures:
A Guilds Assembly (GA) with two Houses, an Upper and Lower House,
The Upper House could be know as the House of Major Guilds (HMAG).
The Lower House could be known as House of Minor Guilds (HMIG).
A) Guilds Assembly (GA):
All guilds will be allowed one representative in the GA in order to achieve as broad a representation of Guilds in the PS Community as possible. The GA is thus not an elitist organisation but a broadly representative one. However, this does not mean that any two or three PS players banding together can call themselves a Guild and get a seat in the GA.
Firstly, there will be distinguished between Major and Minor Guilds. There will be criteria that must be met in order for a Guild to be recognised and admitted to the GA in the first place. The criteria for entering the House of Minor Guilds (HMIG) will be easier to meet than those for the House of Major Guilds (HMAG). However, all guilds can become members of HMAG (graduate if you want) once they meet the criteria. HMIG members will have one vote each in the GA and when voting for the Senate Representatives. HMAG members will have 3 votes each.
The criteria for becoming HMIG and HMAG General Assembly members are as follows:
Major guild :
1) 10 members minimum.
Officially registered as guild in PS and continue to meet all those requirements.
Minor guild :
Must have existed after public announcement in PS Guilds Forum for 1 month.
Must have 7 members and all 7 members must have been members for at least 14 days.
B) Functioning of GA:
The GA will meet combined for the 2 houses and both HMIG and HMAG members are present. The most important functions of the GA are:
To vote an executive committee with a Chairman, Vice-chairman and 2-3 other members.
To debate and approve all major decisions and policies proposed by the Executive committee. If not approved it is referred back to Executive for amendment.
Members can make proposals, debate them, and vote on them.
To vote the Executive out of power by a 2/3 majority of votes on a motion of no confidence, should that be wished for.
C) The Executive Committee:
The Executive is the body that meets regularly and makes decisions and policies with regard to guilds and guild behaviour and activity in PS FORUMS. It implements the decisions ratified by the GA and acts as voice for the GA. Neither the Executive nor the GA has any power or structure inside of the PS game unless such a structure and function is negotiated with, and approved by, the Dev Team of PS.
Executive members are elected for a period of 6 months (unless thrown out by a motion of no-confidence). Any given guild can only have a member elected to the Executive for 2 consecutive 6 months periods. This refers to the GUILD and not a specific member! Thereafter the guild must wait at least one session of 6 months before it can have a representative on the Executive again.
All decisions by the Executive is submitted to the GA for approval by a simple majority of a Quorum of the GA. Only once approved by the GA does any policy or action become official policy for the Guilds Council. Measures or policies NOT approved by the GA are referred back to the GS for amendment.
END
The actual use of the ug(or gc) would probably be to get things done. Big things. Things that would require lots of money. Things that require lots of work. Things that are very popular but there isn\'t enough popularity to get organized. Things similar to the travel plazas along the interstate (USA). Things like cities. Things like public buildings. Etc...
Of course, this may not be reasonable incentive for the creation of such an organization.
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Hiya guys ...
I really need to know who still support this idea. Vengeance, what did you say is really not real!
And about you didn\'t see this in other games ... I thought that we wanted to make an original game! Right?
Until now, Arcane Order, Black Order, Mirth and Evanchild\'s guild support the Council ... but as I said we really must know how many support it.
What Wolfmane said is really great (we\'ve talked that in PS channel).
K ... I am waiting replies.
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Ah ... and I almost forgot. This idea with the council is not perfect. But that\'s why we are here, to make it perfect!
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Such a long list of god knows what... no force on earth would ever make me read or comply with something so long, detailed and boring.
What happened to the simple pleasures of playing computer games with your friends... must we all turn into bloody politicians? Do you honestly believe there will be anarchy without this elaborate proposal of a united guilds council? Are you kidding? 8o
I\'m not flaming the intelligence behind this idea, because that is something that has so far shown an immense amount of thought and organisation. Just... well, I guess if you all want to be so plain and horribly boring and \'organised\' during your time here (time that is, unless I\'m very much mistaken, supposed to be fun and enjoyable and free of consequences and many of the responsibilities of real life), it\'s your choice.
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Unfortunately, to prevent loopholes it must be written legal-style... Unless judges could be voted in to interpret a looser, shorter version. We never said chaos would happen if it wasn\'t created.
Edit: good one venge, funniest thing I\'ve heard all week :P
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Congratulations, wolfmane, you just invented the Communist Party. :-)
- Voluntary membership
- Promoting the welfare of the country
- General Assembly of reps from every province
- Politburo of elected people from GA.
- Taxes, limitations on personal freedoms for the good of the Rodina *cough* country.
Maybe you could all have fancy uniforms and high topped boots too! :-)
Actually, I\'m sort of teasing here but this is why the people that are against it are against it--very easily subverted to be a bad thing in the game.
As a dev/moderator, I\'m neutral on it--just trying to promote deeper discussion and even deeper thought. :-)
- Venge
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Maybe you could all have fancy uniforms and high topped boots too! :-)
hehe i love it *scrwal it on a notepad to use later*
as for my thoughts it dose sound like communisum right now and it chould get worse it chould turn natzi like
power crazy people chould get more powerfull fueling a domination tactic
soon the Ug whould attack all non Ug guilds then the non Ug will have to be called the coalition
pw 1
planeshift war one
fear it
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Sounds like the plot for some random anime, all we now is a supply of girls and giant robots. :P
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When I think of a big counsil, I just think it would add some depth to the game. More like a government and not so much just some united guilds as some people seem to be suggesting:O But also not a government that will make everybody at the end of a certain time period make sure they have enough money to pay taxes or any thing like that.
You\'ve got my support for something like this as long as it keeps the game fun and entertaining. Sorry if I\'m ranting alittle, or it\'s not making much sense, just bare with me ;)
In my eyes, it would simply (like I said before) add a little more depth to the game and make it more interesting (groups attacking trade convoys would be an interesting twist :D But trade routes would only work if lets say certain minerals were found in certain parts of the PS world and would be needed in another part or whatever, just wishful thinking here).
Ok I\'m, again, just throwing around ideas.
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That\'s just the thing though, Plaid... a government idea has already been laid out by the development team. Just go to the main site and see, it\'s all there.
This is just an unecessary means of providing certain guilds with publicity, power and status.
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Hmm, I see ;( Guess I missed reading that. It sounds very NPC-run though, I\'m not sure I like the sound of that as much as actual elected citizens. Now I\'m totally lost as to what\'s going on :baby:
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This is just an unecessary means of providing certain guilds with publicity, power and status.
I wouldn\'t be posting here if I thought (or knew) this was \"A vast Right-Annah Conspicracy\" :P
I\'ll drop the topic though due to lack of public interest. My position is now neutral.
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im interested. i think the whole purpose of this should be just to retain a certain amount fo order. np annihlation and pilaging of defenceless guilds and such... members of not. if you stand for good you get good in return.
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Originally posted by Annah
Ah ... and I almost forgot. This idea with the council is not perfect. But that\'s why we are here, to make it perfect!
I don\'t think that this plan (in the way Annah described it) could ever be perfect (my personal opinion BTW). It takes away from the whole preset structure of the existing game.
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Lol I guess Mirth will strive for order alone then. That\'s OK, I do understand the concerns of those who are opposed to this idea. It could very easily become \"a very large alliance\", but it could also be a great way to help out on a global scale.
Annah, I think you should take some time to write up a plan for this organization that addresses some of the issues raised by its opponents. If you can explain yourself perhaps they will agree. Until such a written plan is produced, I declare Mirth Guild neutral on this issue.
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Mogura, I am VERY curious as to just what your problem is. You expect people to read your long, very boring post, which I think there is more then one of (the newbie help is the only one I know of) yet when it comes to something you think you don\'t like (without reading the ideas) you seem to go off.
Just because you think it is boring, does not mean others do (and if it is boring to you, then ignore it), it is one of the more fun things for me about an online game (that is why I have stuck with The BISM, not power or anything, I like the setting up of something and hopefully watch it become successful), the actual playing is kind of boring (you can do that in sp just as easily), if you won\'t even read the posts then I see little reason for you to be posting anything, at all, about this subject.
Good Luck Annah, what is good about this is you will see which guilds will stick through with you and be more likely to help out more.
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I am having a hard time seeing the harm in all of this. If 10 guilds want to get together and form something big and lay down some ground rules {what ever}. If they wind up being real power brokers(so what). If they pull it off [I?ll be totally amazed].
Trust me guys if you have a guilds collection with over 1000 people, that is players not necessarily just characters but players, it will be a powerful force indeed. And considering how the game is played without adding any extra rules, that is the parts the developers have actually talked about, they?ll be able to build buildings and maybe even cities. And my guess is when you build the city you own it.
If this world is truly as massive as I?ve read it won?t make any difference anyways in the grand scheme of things. You wanna solo, go for it. You don?t wanna be a member of something like this, you don?t have to be. If you don?t like the idea of the city built by collection of guilds, don?t go there.
Organizing 1000 people thereabouts won?t be easy. I?ve never seen it done before but that doesn?t mean I can?t be done. It would be hard to believe that 10 separate guilds or more would agree on many things. If you read through some of the statutes they are based on a lot of guilds will be diametrically opposed. So I don?t really have any words of advice but I do have this to say.
Good luck and give it your best shot!
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IT is ok if they were planning to do it on their own, but when I read it, it seemed to me as a way of controlling any guild.
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Originally posted by Annah
Until now, Arcane Order, Black Order, Mirth and Evanchild\'s guild support the Council ... but as I said we really must know how many support it.
it might be wise to not that the AO is in discussion fore we haven\'t voted on it yet, i know myslef and a fe wothers arenh\'t as quick to ban with you as wolf is.
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Seriously, I\'ve just read all these very boring posts about this very boring subject, and still I have not found ANY post at all explaining WHAT this council does, and HOW they\'re actually going to do it... Fun, isn\'t it? All this fuzz about how the structure is to be, and who wants to be, or not be, in the council, yet not a single post explaining what exactly is to be done... It\'s really fun, you know. :P
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Originally posted by Vengeance
Congratulations, wolfmane, you just invented the Communist Party. :-)
There\'s absolutely nothing wrong with communism (apart from the fact that it has to be lead by strong incorruptable people, and such are hard to find) :P
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Originally posted by Xalthar
it has to be lead by strong incorruptable people, and such are hard to find) :P
not really... most nutcases and lunatics are incorruptible... then again they are usually either power hungry to begin with or enjoy singing \'twinkle twinkle little star\' all too much...
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Originally posted by Drilixer
Originally posted by Xalthar
it has to be lead by strong incorruptable people, and such are hard to find) :P
not really... most nutcases and lunatics are incorruptible... then again they are usually either power hungry to begin with or enjoy singing \'twinkle twinkle little star\' all too much...
IMO Castro is doing an above-average job :P if he wasn\'t powerhungry (don\'t know if he even is) he could get even further with communism...
But still, I am a supporter of Marx\'s idea\'s... and also most of Lenins... just NOT stalin\'s... He was a fool, and should have never gained the seat of power...
But I\'ll not drag this thread into discussing communism (unless there\'s a mood :P)
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Ok ... think is boring? Don\'t read it! ... No one made you to do it. The guilds that are interested will post ...
K? And Vengeance ... please stop with those posts! You\'ll scare the \"fish\" away ...
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the gnomes fully support a peace related alliance of many.
I believe this will open new routes and much mroe knowledge than achieved alone.
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Good heavens, having read this thread for the first time in a few days I was amazed to see how much discussion and bickering this extremely boring topic seems to engender ... 8)
Just to put things straight I never intended for the long, boring, \"legal jargon\" piece to end up as a post here. It is too long and boring unless you are really interested in the topic. That\'s why I asked Druke to post it in the Forum which hosted the discussion on the ideas in progress so far and not in PS Forum. Anyway these things tend to get a life of their own and run all over the show, leaving minor chaos in it\'s wake.
Congratulations, wolfmane, you just invented the Communist Party. :-)
- Voluntary membership
- Promoting the welfare of the country
- General Assembly of reps from every province
- Politburo of elected people from GA.
- Taxes, limitations on personal freedoms for the good of the Rodina *cough* country.
Maybe you could all have fancy uniforms and high topped boots too! :-)
This is not the first time you gave me good reason to laugh Venge :D Actually a bloody good analogy btw.
I have always been a little \"pink\" but thought that will go away if I play as a female character like Illyria. But now I realise I\'ve had a little communist in my tummy all the time. God it is such a relief! :P
Anyway, play along children I need the entertainment of your comments. And if you don\'t make me laugh I will be forced to punish you by writing another looong boring piece for your edification ....
*looks back up into this post, sheezzsss it is already long and boring again*
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Originally posted by Annah
Ok ... think is boring? Don\'t read it! ... No one made you to do it. The guilds that are interested will post ...
K? And Vengeance ... please stop with those posts! You\'ll scare the \"fish\" away ...
Still, all are entitled to their opinions... especially those above the law. :P
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hmm this si almost as big as our recruitment thread..
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Originally posted by druke
hmm this si almost as big as our recruitment thread..
bah who cares, the AO will outlive this idea
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not really... most nutcases and lunatics are incorruptible... then again they are usually either power hungry to begin with or enjoy singing \'twinkle twinkle little star\' all too much...
twinkle twinkle little......
umm....its to what it looks like......
as for comunisim its not a good idea cause if your getting payed to do something even if you dont you still get payed causes lazyness where noone puts effort into anything
so um...comunisim bad.....well infact every system of rulership sucks in its own way......
**gose of to plan planeshift domination....gets confused then starts singing again**
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Originally posted by seperot
umm....its to what it looks like......
as for comunisim its not a good idea cause if your getting payed to do something even if you dont you still get payed causes lazyness where noone puts effort into anything
so um...comunisim bad.....well infact every system of rulership sucks in its own way......
Communism isn\'t bad... It is the leaders of the different countries that are the baddies...
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well if you injoy a socite where noone dose anything....good
but the downside...no cars...no power....no p.c.
dun dun dun
then again a mony grabing hate socite isent great....
oh great there gose my sanity about the gov\'t again now im going to be paraniod for weeks again :P
:P :P :P :P :P :P
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\"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others\"
Figure out what you want to do, and then figure out the best way to make those things happen! Don\'t decide how you want to do things, and THEN do things that fit that description. ;)
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Bah ... if you really don\'t like the idea ... that\'s it. I will move the idea to Mortik - you will regret :P I will probably make an alliance to the guilds that supported the idea, starting with Evanchild.
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EDIT: Forget it
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Originally posted by Annah
Bah ... if you really don\'t like the idea ... that\'s it. I will move the idea to Mortik - you will regret :P I will probably make an alliance to the guilds that supported the idea, starting with Evanchild.
yay