PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: LoreWeaver on September 26, 2003, 04:20:59 am
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I haven\'t been able to run the game yet, due to setup problems. But, I have toyed with customizing games based on Crystal Space in the past and have seen the (spectacular) screenshots of Plane Shift. Needless to say, I\'m impressed despite my installation difficulties.
What I would really like to see is a system that supports a server and 3d graphics client framework that is independent of any particular game with a plug-in capability to customize the system to any game desired. Such a system would raise the value of the code to the Open Source community tremendously, in my opinion.
My motivations are selfish, to be true. I have written a Fantasy RPG, Legendary Quest, that I would love to implement using this technology. I have a number of ideas that would make a cool game world, as I\'m sure many others do as well. If you\'d like to get a feel for what I\'d envision such a game to be, please visit http://www.legendaryquest.com and download the books. They\'re free.
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Im at that site right now, looks kick ass
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194 pages for just the basic rule book?!
Thank goodness its free... i\'d hate to know how much i would have had to pay per page... 8o
:P
really nice idea and RPG system, though.
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Yes, LQ is a very complete game. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I\'ve been working on it for over 20 years now. Don\'t get intimidated by the size, though. The Core Rules are only about 50 pages or so. The rest are merely implementations of the core ideas: classes, skills, spells, monsters, etc. All told, there\'s well over 1000 pages, although I haven\'t got the 6th and 7th books available for download yet.
In any case, the books show what I\'d like to see in an online RPG game. Legendary Quest is based entirely on authentic European and Mediterranean folklore and mythology. I think it would be really cool to have an online game based on these ideas. That is, the game would be strongly influenced by the heroic tales of long ago rather than being fiction dreamed up by modern designers. It\'s not that I don\'t think that the designers of PlaneShift (or EverQuest, DAOC, etc.) are doing a damned good job. They are. It\'s just that, in my opinion, a world based on actual folklore and mythology world seem more \"real\" to the players. It has been my experience that such a world is more believable simply because it is based on concepts that the people of long ago actually believed.
Comments?
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hold on 20 years?
Dang man, 20 years? t-w-e-n-t-y y-e-a-r-s what the heck.
I don\'t think anyone has spent 20 years on one RPG, well the site looks nice though. :)
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heh. that\'s one hell of a long list of skills and jobs. :D
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You\'ll be able to take the source and manually implement what you want to do, only the artwork is proprietary. But making some sort of template for a simple plug-in sounds a bit impracticle and not worth the effort given the amount of work that would have to go into to making something that would actually be worth plugging in is so great that such a team would probably have no problem working it into the open source anyway. Least\' that\'s my guess.
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good work, i hope you get a dev team pretty soon to make it real :D ...and since everything except the artwork in PS is under GPL, you can freely get the PS code (if you\'re not happy with just the crystalspace engine) from http://sourceforge.net/projects/planeshift
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LoreWeaver, the Planeshift game engine--client and server--are free and open source for anyone to use on any game. The Planeshift artwork and rules, etc., are not open source and cannot be used in other contexts.
Planeshift basically has 6 teams working on various aspects of the game, which you would need to duplicate in some fashion to make yours.
Settings - Yours is already done.
Rules - Yours is already done.
Coding - Use Planeshift MMORPG Engine
3d - Need to create.
2d - Need to create.
Music - Need to create.
In other words, if you can get some artists you can easily make your game. On the coding side, I or the other coders would be glad to help you adapt it to your needs.
- Venge
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That is a very generous offer, Venge. I\'ve finally been able to run PlaneShift and am duly impressed.
Ok. I\'ll see if I can drum up enough interest with my LQ crowd to make a \"go\" of it. I won\'t be able to focus my full attention to this for a little while as I\'ve still got two more books to put up on the LQ website before tackling anything new.
If the PlaneShift rules aren\'t Open Source, then it already sounds like the client and server are designed with a plug-in architecture. After all, how else could they be Open Source and yet still incorporate the PlaneShift rules? There must be a sharp boundary between the Open Source part and the proprietary part with some communications mechanism between the two. Am I right? If not, then that would be my first priority, since it would make the most sense to share in any improvements either party made to the basic client/server.
By the way, I wouldn\'t be surprised if the intermittent lag is being caused by the client\'s memory leaks (in that the OS has to periodically page memory in and out because of it). But, you probably already know that.
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Actually right now, some rules are in the code, like the six stats we have and that sort of thing. The big difference is that where rules make the difference is in the data--the actual values used by the people and the items. You could use our code and your own stats if you wanted, but if you want to make an entirely different combat system we could plugin-ize it for you and others. We just haven\'t had a reason to do that yet.
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Wow, I really hope you manage to pull this off!
I mean, something you worked that hard and long to create... It just can\'t fail! :D
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All that material, and the Crystal space engine and the possible help of vengeance (and your own community) could put up a powerful game :D I hope you can manage to keep it free, if you ever get it running...
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You\'ve probably seen this before but hey: maybe you could use this site\'s information in your world:
http://www.godecookery.com/mythical/mythical.htm
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I think I have the recollection of playing this at some time in the past?(I think at a con in San Francisco?but I could be wrong)
LoreWeaver the game and amount of material you have (not to mentions it?s quality) is truly impressive.
What I hope to give as a general outline is some of the many things you need to consider as you go forward in this rout. And hopefully assist you in managing your time so as to have the best possible outcome.
First I will say that MMORPGs take time and a lot of effort, as I assume you already imagine. Using it to the best possible outcome is important.
Art; (3d and textures) will probably be the hardest part to get done. There are many things to do. In a way you are lucky as you will be able to concentrate on these facets more so then Rules and engine coding.
Data; in a paper and pencil game the GM can make many assumptions or generalizations that speed up game play. In a MMOG that is not a possibility, every building, wall, cliff?. Must have a stated (difficulty to climb number) this can change in various effects?but it has to be inputted.
Your Level system does not appear to conflict too much with our ?non-level system? but you will have to figure how to account for luck in a game like this, specially given it?s real time aspect.
One idea I have out of the blue (as I am writing this) is for luck to add benefits for a short amount of time each game day based on level/amount of luck. This refreshes at a certain amount per day, but does so in real time (not at a given moment) so when a player feels he needs all the bonuses he/she can get, they would press the luck button and it would take off ?luck time? as they it goes. And if they use half, then in half a day (game time) they would regain their lost luck time.
I am not saying that you should use the above example only that you may have to change the way things are done to retain aspects of your game.
Another thing you may need to consider is the amount of true combat time. In most MMOGs characters are in combat a lot, and since combat is played out a lot faster then in paper and pencil games (huge raids taking 8 hours that would take months to play out in a paper and pencil game) you exp and general progression system would need to be examined and somehow elongated.
The bonuses for a new level in skill may have to be increased, so players feel they have improved from level/skill 5 to skill 6.
One way to do this and maintain the system as you have it is to simply increase the number of levels or skills. Say from 15 to 150 or 1500. but at the same time you must maintain some sense of progression, specially at the lower end.
Filling up the world.
In paper and pencil games we have a huge city filled with all kinds of things, but we only annotate the VIP?s for the story, in MMOGs it is general that everyone has some function. And filling that in is a huge chore.
You might want to start with small steps. One starting rural town and the outlying adventuring area. One or two races, all the classes for them and levels 1-15.
That would give you a very starting point to get feedback and learn what changes to the initial concept have to change.
Amount of players; in a game like these 100-100,000 players in one location makes things very different then a paper and pencil game where adventurers/ hero?s are uncommon. In MMORPGs hero?s are a dime a dozen and ?dungeons? don?t get raided by groups of 5-20, they get pillaged by hoards of hundreds. How that is dealt with would need to be decided.
Death?is a major transitioning issue in these games, and how it should be dealt with.
Player Vs player interaction. While it is noble to say that all players can interact with other players as they would in real life, the majority of instances it would be the equivalent of having players in D&D that are level 1 doing combat with people that are lv 20 threats.
Role playing aspect. How is role playing enforced or simulated. (think about this one, and I would love to hear if you get a good short answer to this, but in reality any answer I would like to hear.)
Making all the character choices ?cool? is important. It is as important as making it fun. Since people wish to be ?cool? in they alternate life.
In your game you use a D30 for rolls, or about a 3.5% change of any set result. With computers you can make this a d1000000000000 or in our case a roll of 0.000000000000001 ? 2
(don?t count the zeros I didn?t get it exact, but it is about 1^-15). This in our case ?PS? is applied to a large number of predefined variables and with the roll, be it opposed or static comes to a yes or no answer. Actually it is a no or yes/by how much answer.
So as you can see, you have things to think about.
Once you have made choices?test out your concepts and try to prove it out or not using some code or excel or some other chance analysis tool. And figure if your things are in the right scope for your hopes.
Magic is also hard, things will have to be added and taken out of your spells, because of subtleties and or lack of technologies, or likelihood of abuse. For example a mass charm spell, would be greatly annoying to players if the entire war band is finally organized and put together ( a week of planning and 3 hours behind schedule) and the dark wizard in the tower blows them all off in 30 seconds with one spell.
There are about 1000 other things to think about, but I hope this little list is of help to you, and if you need anything (minor) that I might be able to help in, I?d be happy to.
Oh, one other note, starting to seriously plan now, but not start for a year from now (just to say) is not a terrible thing if you have a good and defined concept that would reduce a lot of trial and error.
I trust that you have played EQ, DAOC, SWG, UO, and any other of the slew of MMORPGs if not?dedicate about 2-3 months of your life to ?research?.
It is important to learn not only to know what you dislike about them, but why some work, why others don?t, and how things should work out?UI, what info the players should have, (most games give all info of the ?magic? weapons) yet most planned not to do so, that often gets tossed in alpha or beta testing. As such it makes a ?detect magical function? spell useless.
Ok?I am done for now?.hope it helps a bit.
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/me once again dubs Paxx \"Rex Inscriptiae Elongae\" or \"King of the Long Post\". :-)
Nice post and informative as well Paxx. Keep it up. :)
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Paxx,
Thanks for all the advice. I am prepared to alter whatever LQ rules make sense to put it into an online environment. I\'m no stranger to rule changes. The current incarnation of LQ is the 7th edition and I\'ve already got a lot of ideas for changes for the 8th. But, I must admit that the idea of making 8th edition LQ an online venture is the biggest of them all ;-)
And, I am under no delusions that doing such a thing will be easy. In fact, that\'s why I haven\'t absolutely committed to doing it yet. I\'ve first got to find enough people willing to help out on the project, which is not going to be easy.
As far as enforcing role-play, you can\'t. Or, rather, you shouldn\'t even attempt it. What you can do is make the rules of the game encourage role-play. That is, make it funner to role-play than not. How do you do that? Well, there are a number of ideas for standard pen and paper games. We\'ve actually been discussing this topic on the LQ discussion forums lately. In fact, the biggest change for 8th edition so far is that we\'re going to be getting away from a D&D style alignment system to something more appropriate for Heros undertaking Legendary Quests in a mythological setting. If you want to take a look at our discussions on this topic, go to the the following link:
http://www.ravensrook.com/lq/messages/8/36.html?1064839606
A lot of what we are planning is too subjective for an online game, but some of the ideas are not. To start with, you have to decide what it is your game is all about. That is, what exactly are the roles that are available to players? For example, suppose you want to simulate chivalry. How do you do that? Well, you\'ve first got to set up some rules about what it is to be chivalrous. These must be physically observable actions on the part of the players. Next, you must be able to detect when these actions occur in situations where it would be detrimental to the player to have performed the action. For example, say you decide that swinging at an unarmed opponent is unchivalrous. Then, if a chivalrous character refrains from swinging at an opponent who drops his weapon, you know he is role-playing his persona. After all, there isn\'t any other good reason why he\'d ignore his advantage. At that point, you reward him significantly somehow. That will more than make up for whatever the character lost by not swinging, brings the player more in tune with the character\'s \"morals\", and ends up making the game more fun for everyone.
As far as having played other online games, I haven\'t really done much. I\'ve played a few evenings using some friends\' accounts, but that\'s all. I\'ve avoided them mainly because it could potentially take a lot of time away from writing. But, if I\'m going to create my own MMORPG, that\'s a different story and I\'ll have to get up to speed with the state-of-the-art. (I have thoroughly enjoyed running around the PlaneShift dungeons in the past week.)
Sorry for the long reply.
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When I have a bit more time, I?ll look more deeply at your rules and speak on them a bit at your forum if I see it as appropriate.
The only thing I am saying as far as rules changing is more about the medium you have to work in.
Never Winter Nights is a great example in changing 3rd ED D&D rules to fit the game.
As far as research, I would recommend ATM one of the two major fantasy MMORPGS EQ and or DAOC, then Toon Town, and possibly Star wars galaxies. But in reality the major thing is to play one of the fantasy ones to a point of competence with the character. And that takes time. The key is to play one of these as a player, (to gain that player perspective) this is getting harder and harder for me since I started on this project.
But one you play one to competency, you can see the differences between others and the reasons for some things.
Shadow Bane is a great example of great ideas going to hell. (though I hear it has improved somewhat).
I almost have to say that I can?t stand these games anymore?but they draw me in for a few weeks or so?and then I wonder why I am playing.
I have a broad paper and pencil background?much tweaking rules, never making my own 100% but you would have to say that by the end of some of the tweaks they where mostly mine.
Shadow run is really my true love in role playing, but it has major flaws (troll being able to swallow a grenade and survive for one, shurikens and grenades costing the same for another) but it is a great world, and an action/result system that fits perfectly in the genre.
The only major published system I think fits it?s genre better was/is Earthdawn but by the time I was playing that I was really sick of fantasy and shadowrun overshadowed it so to speak.
But the thing I don?t think I will be able to stress enough is getting good art direction and capable artists willing to take direction and work for free is possibly the hardest thing. In art I speak both 2D and 3D but in writing as well.
Making dialog for ten thousand NPC most of will never be used by more then one percent of the players is not incredible fun.
Plus everyone wants to do the ?cool stuff? and no one wants to do the crap jobs.
I am as guilty of it as the next guy.
Through your past good work, you have a following that would give you a head start on many things, but the devil is always in the details. You have many of those fleshed out, the coders will come I am sure, and they won?t need to be incredibly innovative?though the better they are the better the result. But because you can step up on our shoulders and we have ironed a lot out, you would just need to add your rules and art into the mix. Since our wonderful coding team has jumped the many hurdles in getting it to a point of stable playability.
In reality I am quite hopeful that you go for it, you defiantly have the perseverance.
Out of all the posters that have said they would like to make their own game, yours has rung as the most probable of meeting that goal.
I?m quite sure you would be a very welcome addition to our team as well?(I must ask) but lack of creative liberty might be an issue you would rather avoid since you have plans to do your own similar project.
time for sleep :-)
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*applauds the post*
I am going to print and frame the post. It should be on the PS home page or something.
Paxx, your response was great.
[edit: gave Paxx credit]