PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: _Rhyxali on October 18, 2003, 07:16:05 am
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*sigh*
So tired of listening to posers/lamers acting at being evil. Some lessons to be learned:
1. Evil does not advertise itself as such in order to gain attention.
2. Folks who are truly evil - chances are, you won\'t know it until it\'s too late.
3. Evil does not normally band together in a \"loyal\" group for achieving goals (unless it\'s lawful evil, but then, everyone\'s motives are not neccesarily the same, and \"loyal\" is entirely subjective)
4. Folks who claim to be evil for evil\'s sake just irk me. Some hero needs to come along and remove them from our collective misery.
And, for your further edification, some excerpts from a d20 supplement aptly entitled \"Evil\":
\"Chaotic evil is lazy evil: it gets things done in the simplest possible way. Chaotic evil can also be considered \'efficient evil.\' Coveting your neighbor\'s house? Conk him over the head and move in! Don\'t like the adventurers creeping into your dungeon? Waste \'em! Nothing troubling you at the moment? Take a nap! Like every other alignment, chaotic evil types tend to hang out together because they understand one another. These groups don\'t have a lot of rules or formal structures. The boss is the boss because he gets things done and is strong enough to bend others to his will. The underlings want to be in charge, and one of them will probably get ambitious enough to attack the leader eventually... assuming the leader doesn\'t crush him first.\"
\"Chaotic evil is the cycle gang who kicks down your door, steals your stuff, burns your house and deep-fries your puppy dog - then leaves. Lawful evil is a faceless bureaucracy that seizes your house through eminent domain laws, confiscates your property with a court-ordered foreclosure, puts your puppy dog to sleep because he wasn\'t registered, and then offers to rent your old house back to you at a reasonable rate. Lawful evil is organized. Violence is the last resort, after it\'s tried blackmail, bribery, threats and devious backroom political maneuvering. Chaotic evil hates to back down from an open fight. Lawful evil hates open fights: it would much rather sneak into your bedroom, cast a sleep spell on you to make sure you\'re really out, then put a pillow over your face. So much tidier.\"
\"In many games, the neutral evil character is rightfully described as \'Neutral Me.\' Their number one goal is not simply to acquire power, or riches, but to grasp anything that they desire. After they have gained it, they may as well forget about it and move on - once its usefulness is finished, or the thrill of the acquisition is gone. Chaotic evil wants it now. Lawful evil wants it all. Neutral evil simply wants it, and will go to any lengths, including patience, outright bartering, or even working with a good party to get it. The neutral evil villains do occasionally keep their word and stick to contracts - when it is in their best interest.\"
[excerpts Copyright 2001 Alderac Entertainment Group, Inc.]
Some other thoughts:
If you\'re going to RP \"evil\", take a good look into the mindset. Go into a public place and step out of your normal societal role, and closely observe the \"sheep\" around you. Notice how they\'re so wrapped up in their own little worlds: on their cellphones, talking with a friend, or wondering what to buy. It takes little effort to reach out and take/disrupt a life. More effort is required to achieve mass destruction (blowing up a mall, for instance), with the greater reward/satisfaction as a result. The villains make the adventure. Exploring a rich, immersive environment with no \"true bad guys\" (AI or player) will doom any game. I go through my tedious life day by day, with no desire to repeat that in a virtual environment. If you\'re going to portray \"evil\", at least do it right.
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Does this post win the award for \"longeset 1st post ever?\" ;)
Anyhow, interesting topic, Rhyxali. I\'ve also continuously wondered how there are going to be all these evil/mercenary/bad-peopld guilds when there\'s no pvp in the game. It\'s possible, it just doesn\'t seem to fit.
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The only way these \"guilds\" would fit in is if they could actually get organized, build their power base, infiltrate the reigning governments, and sway important decisions while spreading corruption and distrust behind the scenes. The only use for \"out-there\" evil is to distract the others from seeing/recognizing true evil. They are the cannon fodder that covers up true motives.
So many times, it seems the \"evil\" portrayed here resembles the following:
\"Ooh, I\'m so Evil! You simply must fear me!\"
<\'evil\' player sashays over to the nearest hapless char>
\"Boo! Boo, I say! Nyaah!\"
In order for people to start thinking \"evil\", they need to step into the role. If you\'re evil, would you broadcast your intentions to the heroes who just might foil your well-made plans? Or brag about how superior you are while the heroes plan to remove you from the face of the land? Evil is cunning. Evil is crafty. Evil has backup plans for its backup plans. If people start to realize the depths of what true evil can achieve, then we can all worry. Evil, as it stands here and now, in this place, is laughable.
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I sure hope evil won\'t be lame because I love a good fight. Too bad all the fighting has been made on the forums and not ingame. Just accept that you won\'t find pure evil and pure good. It\'s just in the human nature.
Good and evil are just excuses 4 ppl to jump at each other\'s throat and have a lot of fun killing each other. If there wasn\'t evil we wouldn\'t have anybody to fight with, and this is so dull. Ppl play this game because they wanna fight a human oponent.
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Originally posted by _Rhyxali
If you\'re evil, would you broadcast your intentions to the heroes who just might foil your well-made plans? Or brag about how superior you are while the heroes plan to remove you from the face of the land?
well said, my friend :]
Originally posted by Psycon
Just accept that you won\'t find pure evil and pure good. It\'s just in the human nature.
well first of all human isn\'t only race in Yliakum :P
second tis is roleplay and thou might find any type of character in here,
great roleplayer may play pure evil or good.
Originally posted by Psycon
Good and evil are just excuses 4 ppl to jump at each other\'s throat and have a lot of fun killing each other.
no, good and evil are just words that show thy general goals. If one person is doing something against your goals, you try to fight it (not always by jumping at that person\'s throat).
btw: if you didn\'t know that, good is opposite to evil, so is against any kind of violence. Ones that actually hunt evil, are lawful people.
Originally posted by Psycon
Ppl play this game because they wanna fight a human oponent.
What makes you say that?
I usually play RPGs because of \'RP\' factor...
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Oh, please. If you want to fight against human opponents, go play Quake3 or Tribes2, or get out your Xbox and play Halo. Lots of PK there - in fact, that\'s the point of those games. You could also go play Shadowbane, a griefer\'s paradise. Lots of leet lewt to harvest from your kills. Maybe the devs should make PS into a big, dungeon-like arena for \"ppl\" to gank each other in. Wouldn\'t that be loads of fun?
Seriously though, RPGs assume that the players will play the role of their character: actually pretend to be someone else for a while, complete with an alternate personality. They \"live\" their virtual life, experience high adventure, and also experience creepy depths with dangerous monsters hidden just around the corner. Throw in some treasure to gain, along with a modicum of fame, and most RPG-ers will be very happy. Let them adventure with friends, find new areas, and \"save the day\" through quests. Why must everything turn into \"I love PK, I love to killz ppl?\" If you play online games solely for the \"fun\" of killing others, there\'s something very wrong with you.
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In a no pvp world, u\'ll find that after a while most people will get bored, and leave. Only the RP only people will be left, turning the game into summin along the lines of a 3d neopets without fighting. :D
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ooc & ot: i agree with xordan but to be honest if there is no pvp there is no use for an evil group either you will have sumthing like the smurfs only then you use a currency.
so to have both evil and good you need pvp but then well balanced out.
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I don\'t know if it is stupid to advertise yourself as evil... It might have some degree of ignorance in it, since you don\'t decide for yourself what others see as evil...
And yes, without pvp, it kind of ruins some of the prospects I had in mind for my char... But I am hoping some pvp will be able, and some pking..
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Originally posted by Xordan
In a no pvp world, u\'ll find that after a while most people will get bored, and leave. Only the RP only people will be left, turning the game into summin along the lines of a 3d neopets without fighting. :D
heh... another clever post by Xordan :P
how about pencil & paper RPGs?
there isn\'t much of pvp, is there? :P
still, people are playing them, and they can even fight there :P ;)
about only roleplayers staying: that\'s the best thing that could happen :D
seriously: main point of RPGs is roleplaying, if you don\'t like that and want only pvp go play quake or something :P
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*sigh* (again)
This is not a PvP nor a PK thread, but an analysis of evil. Don\'t you people DARE for one moment equate the base premise of evil to killing. Evil people doing some killing is simply one (commonly) stereotypical aspect. Why limit yourselves to one thing? Evil has so many shades and flavors, it\'s a shame to focus on only one. People claiming to celebrate evil by murdering the masses get all the attention. True evil sits in his corner office, smiling at the way his \"associates\" contributed to the dementia the mass murderer suffers as he continues his \"cleansing\" of the local populace. Killers are only tools, to be used when furthering goals. There is obviously no shortage of people willing to PK. But will they know they\'re being manipulated? Probably not. They\'re too busy being \"evil.\"
Switching gears a bit, Evil can be a matter of perspective. Knights in the European middle ages slaughtered tens of thousands in the name of God. They saw the things they did as Holy and pure. They considered themselves to be good and righteous. No evil there, right? Evil is most insidious and undetectable when disguised as Good. When you\'re walking at the mall, can you discern who\'s evil, and who\'s not? Maybe some of these Good guild leaders have darker purposes in mind....
Also, I never said whether or not I endorse PvP or PK. That issue has been beaten to death and beyond; just drop it.
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Originally posted by Xalthar
And yes, without pvp, it kind of ruins some of the prospects I had in mind for my char... But I am hoping some pvp will be able, and some pking..
Damn Xalthar, you don\'t know this? Well, I\'m not going to answer it, because you should know...
I\'m not going to argue about what evil is, because that\'s useless, evil is what each individual person makes it out to be. Others who think their evil wouldn\'t listen and be swayed anyways.
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Originally posted by Kiern
Originally posted by Xalthar
And yes, without pvp, it kind of ruins some of the prospects I had in mind for my char... But I am hoping some pvp will be able, and some pking..
Damn Xalthar, you don\'t know this? Well, I\'m not going to answer it, because you should know...
What is it I don\'t know? I had many things in mind for my char when I first joined this community, more than 6 months ago... I was dissapointed about stuff back then, that I still am now...
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Originally posted by Xalthar
What is it I don\'t know?
Originally posted by Xalthar
But I am hoping some pvp will be able, and some pking..
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Hmm, Interesting discussion.
Anyway even without PvP the more intelligent of Players (not that Im calling anybody stupid) will recognise that there are other more underhanded ways to gain what they want than killing other people.
Also all this talk of good and evil is all relative, two peoples views of what is good could oppose the other meaning that in the eyes of one they are good (/evil) and there opponent is evil (/good) whereas the other person could think exactly the same.
So what is Good and Evil???????
Ans: I dont know as far as I\'m concerned its all in the eye of the beholder
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Originally posted by Isgrimnur
Also all this talk of good and evil is all relative, two peoples views of what is good could oppose the other meaning that in the eyes of one they are good (/evil) and there opponent is evil (/good) whereas the other person could think exactly the same.
no, tis not relative
read any description of alignments
here\'s a good one:
http://nwvault.ign.com/thegame/alignment.shtml
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Im just saying that that is just an opinion of good and evil from one person or group (most would probably agree with this, mainly) but others wouldn\'t and would see things differently, Hence the various arguments that have broken out when a guild is borderline between neutral and either good or evil about there status!
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Originally posted by Kiern
Originally posted by Xalthar
What is it I don\'t know?
Originally posted by Xalthar
But I am hoping some pvp will be able, and some pking..
You must have misunderstood something very, very basic in the word \"hope\"...
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You must have misunderstood something very, very basic in the word \"hope\"...
We can all but hope that its not a blanket ban on all PvP and Pk (but it must be controlled to avoid people going on killing sprees for the sake of killing newbies)
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Originally posted by Draklar
[heh... another clever post by Xordan :P
how about pencil & paper RPGs?
there isn\'t much of pvp, is there? :P
still, people are playing them, and they can even fight there :P ;)
about only roleplayers staying: that\'s the best thing that could happen :D
seriously: main point of RPGs is roleplaying, if you don\'t like that and want only pvp go play quake or something :P
So how can a fighter say he is a strong fighter with nothing to compare to? In pen and paper RPG\'s there are lvls which u can use to say who is stronger. In PS there aren\'t.
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Originally posted by Xordan
So how can a fighter say he is a strong fighter with nothing to compare to? In pen and paper RPG\'s there are lvls which u can use to say who is stronger. In PS there aren\'t.
And another clever thingy :D
Warhammer is p&p RPG and there are no levels :P
You just spend experience on skills and stats.
ok, but anyways why do you need to compare your strenght? :P
good fighter knows when he\'s experienced :]
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Originally posted by Isgrimnur
You must have misunderstood something very, very basic in the word \"hope\"...
We can all but hope that its not a blanket ban on all PvP and Pk (but it must be controlled to avoid people going on killing sprees for the sake of killing newbies)
and that is exactly what I have been hoping for since I found out that the game wouldn\'t have any pking...
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..........
Why do you people shanghai my thread?
Here is your answer to PvP in PS:
It has already been stated that there will be arenas for the sole purpose of entertaining those who enjoy one-on-one PvP, and also supporting team battles. It has also been stated that there will be no open PvP or PK in the streets (or outside the streets, for that matter). Wishing it were another way does not make it so. The horse is dead; stop beating it.
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I thought there was PvP, but not open pk(Except in arenas, and guild-wars, etc...).
PvP=Consentual Dueling if I\'m not mistaken.
Btw, good posts Rhyxali. They derail your thread becuase that\'s how it works here :P
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It seems a couple people are misunderstanding the good/evil thing. I think it may be because it is mistakenly thought of as right/wrong.
A few have expressed that a good character would appear evil in the eye of an evil character. This is the misunderstanding: the good character appears *wrong* in the eye of the evil character. The good guys know who they are, and the evil characters know who they are.
A good person things that vengeful killing is wrong, while the evil person thinks it is okay. The evil person might consider a crusade to be wrong, though it seems right to the crusaders.
So just keep that in mind while this thread continues; there is a difference between right/wrong and good/evil. :)
At least as far as I understand...
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Evil people know that what they do is wrong. A good char will appear as a wimp in the eyes of an evil one. It will not appear evil. This is because we have almost same system of rules and values. Evil chars choose to break the rules.
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Originally posted by Draklar
And another clever thingy :D
Warhammer is p&p RPG and there are no levels :P
You just spend experience on skills and stats.
ok, but anyways why do you need to compare your strenght? :P
good fighter knows when he\'s experienced :]
ur, I never heard of a pen & paper warhammer. The only one I know of is the one with models, where you bash u\'r opponent to death.
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Originally posted by Psycon
Evil people know that what they do is wrong. A good char will appear as a wimp in the eyes of an evil one. It will not appear evil. This is because we have almost same system of rules and values. Evil chars choose to break the rules.
That\'s right!
You missed something. A good char can do something evil, and think they are doing good.
Also, I want to comment that people aren\'t completely bound by good/neutral/evil alignment. People will do things outside of the alignment that best describes them.
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Skain:
Ah, pardon me. Now it begins.
Who-all here is evil? Sound off!
Rhyxali:
I\'m evil.
Xordan:
I\'m evil.
Rhyxali:
Oh, you are not!
Xordan:
Oh, I am too!
Rhyxali:
You\'re as harmless as a baby\'s ... butt.
Skain:
Rhyxali!
Rhyxali:
Well, he is!
Xordan:
I\'m not a baby\'s butt.
Skain:
Xordan, I\'m going to have to go with Rhyxali on this one. You simply don\'t have the mental capacity to be evil.
Rhyxali:
See?
Xordan:
I don\'t git it.
Skain:
You see, Xordan, you have to be able to come up with, oh, say, plots against the universe. You have to hatch evil plans to conquer planets and be just plain mean most of the time.
Rhyxali:
You\'re just too nice.
Xordan:
I forget how to be mean. That radiation half lobotomized me.
Skain:
Hey, I\'ve got an idea. Let Rhyxali teach you how to be mean!
Rhyxali:
Aw, man! Do I hafta?
Skain:
Yes, you hafta.
Rhyxali:
Okay, Xordan. Repeat after me. Skain-
Xordan:
Skain!
Rhyxali:
I will destroy you!
Xordan:
I will destroy you, if you don\'t mind.
Rhyxali:
I - will - destroy you!
Xordan:
No, I\'m sorry, wait, I\'ll get it. I will destroy yooou!
Rhyxali:
I - WILL - DESTROY YOU!
Xordan:
Awriiight! I will destroy you!
Rhyxali:
You and your little dog too!
Xordan:
You and your little dog- hey! I like his dog! Francine is a good puppy!
Rhyxali:
No! That was just a threat!
Xordan:
You wanna hurt Francine! You\'re a big bad green, um, thingie guy-
Skain:
Bug.
Xordan:
Bug! I don\'t want you to hurt Francine! Skain, shoot that thingie thing on your arm-
Skain:
Destructo ray.
Xordan:
-destructo ray so he doesn\'t hurt Francine.
Skain:
Gladly, Xordan, my dear old chum.
(Skain zaps Rhyxali)
Rhyxali:
(coughs) Hey! What\'d you do that for?!
Skain:
THAT WAS FOR FRANCINE!
Hey, wait, I don\'t have a dog.
Rhyxali:
Yeah, (coughs) tell me about it. (coughs)
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lol just messin bout guys dont take no offence :-)
heh heh, space ghost rules (which is what the aboves a parody of if u didn\'t know :-))
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offence hmmm like in CHARGE and KILL, nah not yet i don\'t feel like it.
btw there aren\'t any evil guys.
shadowmancer isn\'t although he got enemy\'s quite fast.
drachion well he is just a moron and the cabal welllll they really are a baby\'s butt :P ( that will stay in my mind forever ) :]
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:D Draw some cartoon figures, and publish it.
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Great idea Xordan :D lets start a new topic in hydlaa and put this story in it where we all draw the potential characters that are in the story.
like those big headed manga figures.
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_Rhyxali your thoughts on evil are... well... good.
Skain, lol
To those of you who don\'t know what evil is: It is not relative! If you do not know what the difference between the two is then you may find yourself on the side of evil! Go to church, and find out!
Good does not always avoid a fight! God will smite the evil ones and when God personally commands me to act on his behalf, thy will be done!
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you do know that when i enter a church i kinda die, or i can create a dogma and abuse the opportunity to destroy heaven MUHAHAHAHA
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Originally posted by Xordan
ur, I never heard of a pen & paper warhammer. The only one I know of is the one with models, where you bash u\'r opponent to death.
you mean Warhammer: fantasy battle?
p&p is called WFRP (Warhammer: fantasy roleplay)
Originally posted by derwoodly
Good does not always avoid a fight!
this sentence is sooooooo not true ;)
good aligned people always avoid fight.
They fight... but only if there is no other way.
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Originally posted by Davis
That\'s right!
You missed something. A good char can do something evil, and think they are doing good.
Also, I want to comment that people aren\'t completely bound by good/neutral/evil alignment. People will do things outside of the alignment that best describes them.
I agree with you, but we call a good person someone who does mostly good. There is no room for perfection in this world, but some come very close to it.
And there is another problem about you say. Good and evil are all relative to the system of values everyone uses. So if you do a bad thing and you don\'t realize it you are either crazy or have other system of values. If you convince a good person that what they do is wrong he will stop doing that. A good person is just someone who plays by the rules.
Another thing I wanna say is that I don\'t think there are true evil ppl in the planeshitf comunity. Some just choose to break some of the rules(mostly killing others for money). The problem is that they don\'t break all the rules and you will see \"bad\" ppl very loial to their guild, who are really helping each other and which will be a really tough enemy. That\'s why I think a neutral or bad guild will be the one to rule the planeshift world.
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Originally posted by Psycon
The problem is that they don\'t break all the rules and you will see \"bad\" ppl very loial to their guild, who are really helping each other and which will be a really tough enemy. That\'s why I think a neutral or bad guild will be the one to rule the planeshift world.
uhh... that didn\'t make much sense :P
so evil people are loyal to their guild... that makes them tough... but what has it to do with neutral guilds?
And you think good people aren\'t loyal to their guilds? :P
Actually they will be even more helpful for other members :P
I mean evil is about thinking about yourself and not others :P
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We should exterminate all evil within the world of Planeshift! Look to laanx and find enlightenment! If you are truely tired of the world being populated with evil Join my noble cause! We are the followers of Laanx! The first and only guild centered squarely on religion! Join me brothers and sisters and visit http://www.laanxzealot.cjb.net! Unite underone true god, Laanx!
PS: I love being the religious zealot! :D
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Well, to go along with using unrelated threads to give guild promotions thing...
JOIN MIRTH! CLICK MY SIG!
Yeah. And about what defines evil... Oh I already gave my opinion didn\'t I? And it\'s only 10:09...
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Originally posted by Draklar
Originally posted by derwoodly
Good does not always avoid a fight!
this sentence is sooooooo not true ;)
good aligned people always avoid fight.
They fight... but only if there is no other way.
Good and Evil are always at war! Evil might be hiding, but good will always seek it out and destroy it!!! I am talking roleplay here. This thread got five stars because Rhyx tryied to educate us on how to roleplay evil. Stateing that good is always aviods a fight and evil always starts fights does not make good roleplay. Here are some simmple rules that I know of:
Raiseing the dead: Evil
Resurecting the dead: Good
Slaying Kings: Evil
Slaying Dragons: Good
Slaying leaders to move up in the chain of command: Evil
Blindly following the leaders: Good
Black knight: Evil
White knight: Good
So it is writen so shall it be done!!!!
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Originally posted by derwoodly
This thread got five stars because Rhyx tryied to educate us on how to roleplay evil.
FINALLY, someone gets it! The whole point of this thread was to give ideas on improving the RP aspect of \"being evil.\" Talking about evil is all well and good, but portraying it convincingly is something else altogether.
Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal Lecter acted like the most polite and intelligently conversational person you\'d want to meet. His dark side was hidden well when he was out in public. Passing him on the street, you\'d never know he was thinking of eating your spleen \"with Fava beans and a nice Chianti.\"
In my experience, most of the worst villains in RPGs have been fallen heroes. No one else can sink as low (or be as effective at being evil) than those who have walked in the Light. They know how the heroes are going to react, and may even try to corrupt them as they have been corrupted. The Dark Path will seduce you; will entice you with unfulfilled dreams made possible. It\'s only a little evil, what could it hurt? ;)
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Originally posted by derwoodly
Stateing that good is always aviods a fight and evil always starts fights does not make good roleplay.
*sigh* how many times do i have to say that...
good is opposite to evil so good people are against any type of violence.
Ones that hunt evil are lawful aligned.
Originally posted by derwoodly
Slaying Kings: Evil
Slaying Dragons: Good
Black knight: Evil
White knight: Good
Slaying Kings: might be lawful-good if king was terrorizing people in his kingdom.
Slaying Dragons: not always good as it might be gold dragon (which is good aligned) ;)
Black Knight: Lawful-evil
White Knight: Lawful-good
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Originally posted by _Rhyxali
It\'s only a little evil, what could it hurt? ;)
Very true IRL as well.
And fallen heros do tend to make effective villains. It\'s also interesting to think of how little it takes for this to happen. Being good is something that takes a lifetime of commitment, while turning to evil can be something that happens out of your control that snaps your mind like a twig. I mean, take NWN: Aribeth was the most good and lawful paladin in all of Neverwinter, then her fiance was executed; she couldn\'t take it and so she joined the ranks of evil (as far as I know, I didn\'t quite finish the game though :P ).