PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mr. Chi on October 19, 2003, 09:37:51 pm
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Hello,
I am Bjorn Schijff and I know PlaneShift a while already.
I just didn\'t came to the forums because I couldn\'t play PS. Now, I can.
I am now 14 years old and run the Netgamers incorporated. www.Netgamers.tk (No spam).
I am into Programming and I do play a lot of game(mostly Online games).
I\'ll put out a list with any Nicknames so you might find me:
[NET]Vash
- C&C Renegade - Netgamers
- Jedi Knight 2: Outcast - Darkshadow, Vash
- Tribes - [NET]Vash
- Operation Flashpoint - Bjorn Schijff
- PlaneShift - Don\'t have one yet, but something like: Vash
[/list]
Why do I play online games why I could be working on some great games?
I am doing research, I play a lot of online games to get to know which bugs may NOT be in my games, how you can get good at things and several system tests to see how games work. That\'s why I came to PlaneShift, the high resolution world, online, free... How can I not take a look at that. If you will visit my website, you\'ll get to read about \'Sarxos soon.
Sarxos is what I want to be my game in a matter of years. I am learning the language \'DirectX\' and bought a book on it. You are probably thinking: Why are you here? or \'Why are you not learning that language?\' well:
I do not have the motivation for it and as I speak: When you read my website, you\'ll see that my task is leading, head-programming and like that so I have to motivate my team: Well, I can\'t because:
1. I don\'t have motivation myself.
2. My team can\'t do anything because we don\'t know which games were gonna make before starting on Sarxos.
That\'s why I am asking the admins of PlaneShift to give me their E-Mail adres so I can ask some questions about how they builded the game and questions like that(Which languages, How long did it took you etc.).
Also, I am asking the rest of the members: Could you please try to motivate me and my team if you have faith in us.
Please do not consider this as spam, joke or anything else to flame me or the team about.
Thank you, have a pleasant stay.
~Bjorn and Netgamers inc.
P.s. I am from Holland, so English is not my first language: Please do not look at the grammar mistakes.
However: If you do find some grammar mistakes on my sites or wherever: Don\'t be shy to notify me about it.
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hehehe Im 14 aswell and I only make games in RPG Maker 2000, well still havent shared it tought :P
But you should try to do it (think that at least youll have a job that cant be too boring, compared with selling burgers or something like that) I havent saw your site but will do it right now. Work hard and Im sure youll make it! :P
Hope to hear of you soon.
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Welcome to the PS boards my fellow dutchman, hope you have a good time :D
btw, planeshift as a project was started in 1992, so it took them a while to get it as far as it is now...
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indeed welcome fellow dutchman to the wonderfull world of planeshift.
and best of luck with your own games and programm\'s if you are useing visual basic .net poop by on http://www.ultimasoftware.tk and maybe the owner ( not me )can help you out or you him.
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GO DUTCH!!!!! second best country in the world!
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Are there so much Dutch people inhere ?( .
Well, Natrina: You saw my website and liked it huh?
Okay, thank you for your welcome. I am getting little motivated already: They started in 1992? Our ideas and plans(World map, Models ed.) the design of it is now 2 years old. Before we start developing them to the computer world: It\'s when I got the team right programmes and I know some DirectX.
We know for sure that before starting on Sarxos, we\'ll create smaller games first.
High on top is a \'Ski-Game\', multiplayer only.
You choose to be a snowboarder or skiier, select a model and go online to game on the Net. Levels are different Mountains. There is no real objective to the game anyway. There\'s a chat and you can game for yourself. Races and stuff with friends are -of course- allowed.
You can create your own games with that, like hide \'n seek and games like that.
That\'s the idea behind the game, but where now planning and designing on the mountains and models.
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one way or the other dutch = greedy so we sniff free things from miles away :P
but there are quite alot dutch people here for such a small country.
i also took a look at your site looks great, good luck with it.
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If I was to make a shot in the fog, I\'d say at least a third of the people here are dutch, but I\'m not really sure. At least many of the active ones are dutchies. :P
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hey mr chi why not upgrade to Jedi Academy? them me and my duel lightsaber whildeing stormtrooper can duel ye :D
anyways injoy ps ;)
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Greetings mr chi
And i do Belive we have a new winner for Best introduction.
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Wake up mr chi. I know it\'s fun to daydream but the first game your \"company\" should release is a nice new version of tetris, snake or pakman (or have them all). Make sure you don\'t have any real coder in your team or he will be very disapointed.
From my knowledge the game is made in c++ programing language and has the crystal space engine. First you should learn c++.
You should also go see http://www.gamedev.net (or .org, .com, i\'m not sure) to see information about how games are done. Maybe your dream will come true after all ;)
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You still havent seen a thing and you are already saying it is a daydream? Then I hope they prove you are completly wrong in thinkin that. He already told us that is he studing somethin didnt he? Well then lets wait for the results, before speaking bad about it.
Low expectations sucks, motivation rules. You could at least be more nice.
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Just Dont get Too ahead of yourself. Or you may Be looking at a large letdown, But at your Level of Preparedness, i belive that there is a large chance for the Company to Be succsesful.
Edit: By the way, i addressed that to Mr. Chi
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I feel like talking about what I know (at least I think I know what I know :P ), so here I go:
Everyone, the world is changing, C++ will soon be forgotten (well, maybe not, but it won\'t be the most-used language)... People (well, colleges) are beginning to want Java. Just last year my school stopped teaching C++ and began teaching Java. I\'m taking intro (to Java) this year, and it\'s pretty cool. Another language to take a look at is OpenGL. If you want to learn Java try this book:
Java: An Introduction to Computer Science and Programming by Walter Savitch.
Anyway, good luck to you and your company and welcome!
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Your first post broke my attention span! It hurt! It just kinda stretched a little too much then... SNAP! (And no, I didn\'t get past the first three paragraphs)
And even if C++ dissapears, the understanding and way of thinking will change less.
EDIT: I healed. It was only sprained.
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Java and C++ are very similar in fact, but since Java will probably be taking over in a few years, might as well learn it now.
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Originally posted by Natrina
You still havent seen a thing and you are already saying it is a daydream? Then I hope they prove you are completly wrong in thinkin that. He already told us that is he studing somethin didnt he? Well then lets wait for the results, before speaking bad about it.
Low expectations sucks, motivation rules. You could at least be more nice.
The reason I say it\'s a daydream is that I haven\'t seen a thing. In this busines results take a long time to appear. A game requires a lot of hard work, skill and experience and mr chi seemed to lack the last two. I doubt he has good coding skills since I don\'t think directx is a language(I always thought it was a library of functions, might be wrong though). Wanting to learn is a very good thing, that\'s why I provided links to what might interest him but he shouldn\'t begin managing a team right from the start. Maybe after a while, when he knows more and it is more experienced. I heared some bad storyes about kids leading teams and that\'s why I doubt so much of him.
Another thing I wanna say is that c++ won\'t be replaced by java. Java is slower and not so flexible. Speed is very important in games.
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Java is more flexible, excuse me... (also great for cross-platform)
EDIT: Did I mention a lot easier to code? I\'ve talked to some students that took C++ before the switch: It seems to be a nightmare to debug...
Also, check this out: http://www.flat222.org/mac/bench/ . As you can see from these benchmark tests, C++ is definetly faster, however, the overview of the languages at the bottom of the page shows a better balance of features, including debugging and cross-platfrom usage (Portability) in Java. The author also mentions a speed increase in Java, and whether or not Java overtakes C++ in the speed area or not, I think that the other advantages give it a solid base as the next language for the limelight (so to speak).
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Java will NEVER be what C++ is, I don\'t care how many colleges are switching, and what\'s for certain is that C++ will never be forgotten, because it will stay around forever.
Java came out awhile ago, if I recall, so answer me this:
How many commercial games have been written in Java?
How many operating systems have been written in Java?
How many nuclear reactor monitoring systems have been written in Java?
How many ICBM guidance systems are written in Java?
Why isn\'t Java used for these things? Because it\'s not up to the task, it just can\'t take REAL programming assignments. For those little flashing \"shoot the target and win free mouthwash\" banner ads, people use Java. For real programmers, C++ is the language of choice.
Originally posted by Cha0s Did I mention a lot easier to code? I\'ve talked to some students that took C++ before the switch: It seems to be a nightmare to debug...
[extreme sarcasm]
I know, let\'s write everything in Visual Basic, that\'s really easy to code!!
[/extreme sarcasm]
And the only time it\'s a nightmare to debug your C++ code is:
1. You can\'t write very good code
2. Your code has to reference the code of someone who doesn\'t write very good code
I\'ve been using C++ for years, and debugging is extremely simple if you know what you\'re doing.
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Xandria is sooooo right here, it\'s not even funny. C++(or the classic C) is still widely used because it\'s fast flexible. I\'ve only ever found ONE language that is faster, and you DON\'T want to try debugging assembly, trust me on this one...
Jessyn
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Very good points. Now listen to this: Only in the past 2 years or so has Java begun to be developed into a serious language. Over the past two years Java has shot up as a language and rules the world on the internet (is there such a thing as a C++ Applet?). As people begin to realize its internet potential, Sun Microsystems (its creator) is beginning to enhance the software to provide more ease of use and power. The overall point is that a programmer can code more quickly and easily in Java and thus create more Applications/Features in less time, and if Sun comes through with its updates Java will become considerably faster. Also note that compiled Java code runs a lot faster than interpreted Java code, a big part in the \"Java is 10 times slower\" myth. Anyway, read the paper at the link, and try, objectively, to tell me what you think, with no bias one way or the other (and if you like, point me to a source and I\'ll do the same).
http://users.iafrica.com/b/bc/bchall/javavscpp.html
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BTW, my opinion may seem biased, and that\'s because it is; I\'ve been using C++ for a long time (for and 18 year old) and I know that I want to be a C++ programmer as a career. Nothing will possibly change my opinion (just wanted to let you know). Still, I will try to stay as object as I can.
However, if you\'re going to ask a C++ programmer to objectively compare and contrast C++ to Java, you need to find a better document than the one you posted; it\'s obviously biased towards Java. You can\'t ask someone to analyze something objectively when the document itself is biased.
While it may be considered a powerful feature, many find it complicated and confusing and thus creating problems for the programmer.
Look at the words I\'ve bolded. Someone (an inexperienced programmer, that is) reading this is alread going to frown upon C++, because the document makes it sound unfriendly.
Also, I must say C++ is an OOP, and the inheritance model is excellent for many, many applications for programming. It\'s not all that difficult to implement if you understand how it works.
The main disadvantage is that C++ programs are not portable once compiled and although it is possible to compile one and the same C++ program to various platforms, this is usually done with great difficulty, to say the least.
It is true that C++ programs written without the intention of being cross-platform are usually difficult to port. This is because the programmers write for the system(s) of the target end user.
However, if you actually write your code with the intention of being cross-platform, you can use the exact same code for any variation of computer you wish to build it on. Linux is (most of the distributions are, at least) written in C/C++, and you can download the exact same code to build on your x86, PowerPC, Sparc, Nintendo 64, etc.
This burden for the programmer of memory management is often the source of bugs, crashes, memory leaks and poor performance.
Seriously now, \"burden\" is a horrible word to use in an \"unbiased\" article. Again, memory management is something that comes with the territory; if you\'re going to write code in C++, you learn how to manage memory correctly and efficiently, and if done correctly gives few problems at all. At least this \"burden\" allows us to free up our memory when we\'re done, instead of waiting for the garbage collector to come pick it up.
Unfortunately due to it\'s complex nature it is also the source of many bugs, such as the dangling pointer.
OMFG, the one thing I can\'t stand is when people complain about pointers. It\'s not that complicated! I\'ve sat through three C/C++ college courses, and in each case people whine about how pointers are sooo hard. I simply do not understand why everyone complains; I have never had a problem with pointers.
Well, that\'s about as objective as I\'m willing to get with this article. If I find time, I\'ll try to find a more \'unbiased\' piece to analyze.
Originally posted by Jessyn
Xandria is sooooo right here, it\'s not even funny. C++(or the classic C) is still widely used because it\'s fast flexible. I\'ve only ever found ONE language that is faster, and you DON\'T want to try debugging assembly, trust me on this one...
Hahaha, oh man, assembly is hardcore :D
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Java is based on C++ anyway.
I\'ve been trying to teach myself C++ for the last two years or so, and I go pretty far. And the thing about pointers that most confused me was where to put the little stars. Naturally, it didn\'t take too long to figure that out. :D
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Java will continue to be a niche language for servers for the foreseeable future. This puts it in the same league as things like ASP and VBscript.
The market agrees with me. See this chart: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=SUNW&t=5y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c= for proof.
(i.e. it peaked in summer of 2000 around $65/shr and is now worth about $3/shr unadjusted for splits.)
- Venge
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I am no programmer in the software sense of the word but i do have web design background, so heres my suggestion.
Why now modd an already existing game to begin with as most of the hard work has already been done and that will give you and your team a great base to move in to creating your own standalone products.
p.s. if you need a (novice) web designer and would like to train him i\'m ur man.
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A little update and Psycon, I might answer some things for you.
Okay, I am not learning C++ anymore.. I am going to move to Visual Basic because the book I have on programming DX only supports VB. Furthur: I do have a lot of small games and I have written 2 tutorials for QB. but these game are so non-graphical I didn\'t put them up for download, you can always ask by PM or Mail if I will submit them but most games I will have to rewrite because I just had a new computer( :D ). Furthur, I do see your point and I know what you mean but a little information: Netgamers inc. survived 2 years now and I am planning to make that number grow.
Besides, were keeping the board and website alive to compensate the lack of activity in updating games and programming.
I really could use a lot of motivation and I think that this is helping me alot.
I want to thank you already and did I won a prize already 8o ...
Anyway: I am glad I am taking in the group so fast, I only have some problems with connecting to PS, but I am going to fix that or post it somewhere else.
Thanks all,
~Bjorn and Netgamers inc.
ps.:
Originally posted by ya old fraggle
p.s. if you need a (novice) web designer and would like to train him i\'m ur man.
I am looking for someone who could teach me advanced webdesigning.. will you assist me?
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From a non-programmer\'s view (mine), it appears to me that Java is making inroads into the market and is starting to mature and stabilize. I\'m seeing it start to be in more demand, especially since many enterprise server systems have this tilt towards Java and where the enterprise lies, Java and $$$ lies.
Still, it seems that Java has some problems with number-crunching. It\'s getting more efficient, but as long as it\'s held back by this JVM thing I don\'t see how it can get closer to the machine and do things faster than doing it in C or assembly language. I\'m not saying JVM is a bad thing - The tradeoff here is that you get your cross-platform compatibility but there\'s a little sacrifice in speed.
Games (save cellphones) need that speed, so Java has been ignored in this field, except if speed was less of a concern (eg applets) and cross-platform compatibility was a must. I\'ve heard of a local university was trying out Java 3D as part of some research project and it was *really* bad.
What I\'m trying to say is that you shouldn\'t base your decision to use a language based on what you think is greater, but whether it is relevant, and useful. I have a friend who moved from C++ to Java and he\'s been extolling how Java is getting better and better, but that doesn\'t prevent him from acknowledging the importance of C++.
Another thing is that I have a feeling that programmers will eventually need to know both unless they would love to remain ignorant about what market the \"other\" language serves. No point being a zealot if you can get the best of both worlds and know when to use either.
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chrischoo, the middle field. Excellent point, and I think you are right. Next year I will probably take the AP Java course and learn Java to its fullest extent. If the next release is promising enough to oust C++ and put an end to it totally (unlikely) then I\'ll stay there. If not, I\'ll take my independant study in C++. Xandria, you\'re right that the article I cited was very biased, however, it\'s the only one I could find that wasn\'t in programmer talk (not useful for anyone but us and other programmers). I mean, do they care if C++ can have a main function return a value or not? :P
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Originally posted by Mr. Chi
A little update and Psycon, I might answer some things for you.
Okay, I am not learning C++ anymore.. I am going to move to Visual Basic because the book I have on programming DX only supports VB. Furthur: I do have a lot of small games and I have written 2 tutorials for QB. but these game are so non-graphical I didn\'t put them up for download, you can always ask by PM or Mail if I will submit them but most games I will have to rewrite because I just had a new computer( :D ). Furthur, I do see your point and I know what you mean but a little information: Netgamers inc. survived 2 years now and I am planning to make that number grow.
Sorry for beeing so harsh on you Chi. It seems you are a good team leader after all. I wish you good luck.
About not learning c++ anymore, that is a big mistake. Just point me to a good game coded in vb and I\'ll join your team (I am not a good coder anyway :) ). Not all books are good. C++ is the language of games. Just ask anyone in the business. Read some articles on gamedev.net about how games are made and you\'ll see I\'m right. You could also try some net tutorials on DX too, but I always thought a book is better, but not any book, a good book(whith C++ examples).
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Originally posted by Psycon
Originally posted by Mr. Chi
A little update and Psycon, I might answer some things for you.
Okay, I am not learning C++ anymore.. I am going to move to Visual Basic because the book I have on programming DX only supports VB. Furthur: I do have a lot of small games and I have written 2 tutorials for QB. but these game are so non-graphical I didn\'t put them up for download, you can always ask by PM or Mail if I will submit them but most games I will have to rewrite because I just had a new computer( :D ). Furthur, I do see your point and I know what you mean but a little information: Netgamers inc. survived 2 years now and I am planning to make that number grow.
Sorry for beeing so harsh on you Chi. It seems you are a good team leader after all. I wish you good luck.
About not learning c++ anymore, that is a big mistake. Just point me to a good game coded in vb and I\'ll join your team (I am not a good coder anyway :) ). Not all books are good. C++ is the language of games. Just ask anyone in the business. Read some articles on gamedev.net about how games are made and you\'ll see I\'m right. You could also try some net tutorials on DX too, but I always thought a book is better, but not any book, a good book(whith C++ examples).
You must know I really appreciate these kind of discussions.
Okay, a good game written in VB is Unreal.
If I am not mistaking of course. If Unreal was written in VB(Which I thought I read somewhere), means that around 80 Modifications which where officially released are also written in VB.
I know, my book only helps with VB, besides: C++ is a language I can\'t understand too good right now. I should go to school for it and when I\'ll do that, you\'ll hear it.
Anyway: I am moving to VB and however I do know NOTHING about it, I know it supports DX and that enough for me. I am going to start learning tomorrow(Borrowing a book on it tomorrow). Besides: Lark11Uk of Table-Spoon Entertainment(Which has fused with Netgamers inc. only wanted to keep working under their own name) made an engine in VB and their like us(same ages). This Engine was able to get 150 FPS on my old computer(400 MHZ). They only loaded a simple model in the Engine, but you was able to turn around it. I\'ll ask Lark to mail it to me so I can put it up for download.
Keep the discussion up guys :).
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Sorry but Unreal was not written in VB, and no serious 3d game has been. That does not make VB a bad language--but 3d games is not what it is for.
It is like performing surgery on someone with a sledgehammer. Probably not the tool of choice, although that doesn\'t make sledgehammers bad.
-Venge
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Hmm, okay that\'s true.
I just mistaked it with something else, never mind that.
Well, my book only supports Visual Basic. That same book explains you how to make a 3D game...
I think it is enough for me :D.
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Originally posted by Cha0s
Over the past two years Java has shot up as a language and rules the world on the internet (is there such a thing as a C++ Applet?). As people begin to realize its internet potential, Sun Microsystems (its creator) is beginning to enhance the software to provide more ease of use and power.
Too bad Sun might be bought out by HP. I think Java is a great language, but in the hands of HP, it will turn into everything else that HP touches. Cra... oops. Err... Dookie.
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Woohoo, my fellow people.. I am motivated again!
Dudes, I am having a little fight with Lark11uk but I guess I can fix that soon enough.
Furthur, in the mean time I was working on my VB and now I am making simple, easy, puny, useless games mostly for my sister. The gamer aren\'t really hard now, but when I finished this tutorial: I am moving to the first games in 2D. Dudes, Really much thank you\'s for motivating me and thanks to the guys that have joined our forum..
We\'re getting active again. Lark11uk is gonna work on Ski-game when we don\'t fight anymore and I am death-busy with my mini-games (most in dutch). Lark11uk does help me with these when I mistake..
Well however. We only have some problems to fix yet... 1: Where are we gonna model in. I guess in 3dsmax because Nightquest can do that very good..
2. Where are we gonna map in... Well, that\'s the big problem.. We don\'t know in which program to map... I mean: For 3dsmax we can probably find something to make the models fit our engine but for any mapping programming: We can\'t yet..
So, where waiting for that.
dudes, I am keeping you notified and I am back to learnin again now.
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Originally posted by Xandria
Java came out awhile ago, if I recall, so answer me this:
How many commercial games have been written in Java?
How many operating systems have been written in Java?
How many nuclear reactor monitoring systems have been written in Java?
How many ICBM guidance systems are written in Java?
I have no idea about the rest and im not even sure if it is a \"commercial\" game but there is one java game and its called rs. it has over 200 million users and 15k online at a time often it is now testing the beta of rs 2 wich will be entirely 3d but still on java http://www.(because it will be shown as \"the-game-that-shall-not-be-named i will tell you that the first part is rune and the second part is scape).com
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I totally forgot about that.. RS is a commercial game written in Java. I do play it...
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To be honest, in my experience it doesn\'t really matter which language you start with, just learn 1 or 2 languages thouroughly(oh my, spelling...), then learning more languages will be very easy, it\'s all about using the proper tool for the job and what you\'re comfortable with. Personally i prefer plain old C for most of my personal projects, although i could have written the same program in C++, java, python, perl or basic and could learn enough of cobalt, fortran, lisp and so on to write it in those without it slowing down the project too much.
I prefer C because it leaves me in control, while still being abstract enough to keep the design time/coding time ratio at a reasonable rate.
Also, you cannot really base any statement on languages on what universities and such use, since they might have different priorities than what you have (ease of debugging, fast results over speed and control for example), a good learning tool is not neccecairily a good production tool (although the language you learn in school can be presented as a \"wonder language\" that suits every situation, it doesn\'t).
And Mr. Chi, i suggest going with first learning C well, then SDL, then sockets, then opengl. But your priorities and preferences could be totally different than mine, so you could also take a rather in-depth look at all the languages you could see yourself coding in, and base your desicion on that. Remember to not rush ahead, and remember that what you think is going to take 1 week, will take 3 weeks ;)
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Rulzern, your a guy to my heart. You know what you and you program too. Your right, I should take my own decisions and sometimes.. Things you think that take 1 week, takes 5 weeks. However, I am now busy with Visual Basic and I know all the basics and Windows programming with that. Now I am switching to DirectX which will take lot\'s of work to learn.
I took VB after I learned that it was way easier then C++ and due to my background with QB I knew a lot about it already which I liked most. After VB, I want to program first a lot but if the first game isn\'t how we wanted it.. Even if it\'s just the speed. I might just learn C/C++ again... Because I know a lot of VB then, I might have some advantage.. I don\'t know.. But it would be handy.
However, I can now hardly imagine how people learn DirectX by heart, it\'ll take me a long time I guess.
Well, dudes. Thank you again.
~Mr. Chi, Signing out.
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Oooh yeah dutch ppl are greedy =)
When something is free i download it (like rtcw ET)