PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Forsythe on January 03, 2004, 06:29:25 pm
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If you have ever played in an MMORPG when 2000+ people are online, and everything is being camped to the hilt, you will understand why zone instancing is a must and should be built in from the get go.
All of the new MMORPG\'s are coming out with a version of it for their games, EQ already has it with one of their expansions, WoW has it built in, and is evidently very flexible for them.
The main purpose is to allow a new instance of a zone/dungeon to be created when a group of players enter it with a set of keys. This allows them to dungeon crawl, without having to wonder if every minor and major boss in the zone is already spoken for. This leads to more fun for the players, as well as a lot less bickering. Kill stealing being a major issue.
Attention must be paid to this topic early on, if this game is going to handle thousands of people at once.
Thanks much in advance,
Forsythe
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I think this is going to be very usefull indeed but this is more a thread for the wish list section.
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Already talked about...I think it\'s very stupid, defeats the purpose of a real-time MMORPG in my opinion.
And besides that, PS will have way more to do then \"dungeon crawling\" and people stealing others kills is a fact of life, get over it, even though I\'m not sure if they\'ll work anything out for that.
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i agree, standard MMORPGing is the best, and if ur gonna get KSed then i say try and KS the guy back so u can get ur kills and leave, but dont whine about it unless u cant do anything about it and he keeps doing it, then report him as a griefer, and they\'ll prob get banned with PS\'s staff ;)
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NO! FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY NOOOO!
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Actually I\'ve heard of divisions within the devellopers over this issue (whether that means anything or not :P ) - we may or may not use instancing and if we do I wouldnt expect it soon or as a prevalent feature in the game... I believe that it does defeat the purpose of an mmog... however instanced dungeons can give players a more intimate feal for the game...
This has been discussed many times before - I don\'t remember which one: but I believe Acraig and/or Vengeance talked about this once in the forums so do your homework and see what they said
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I don\'t understand what your aversion is to zone instancing. Do you want to play in a game where you can\'t get any exp or do quests because the mobs are camped?
Rulzern, what a helpful post, I really got a lot out of, \"NO! FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY NOOOO!\"
roguewolftamer, ever thought about using some period?s man, my brain almost took a core dump reading that. =p All kidding a side, I don\'t find your answer adequate for the problem. By having someone banned does not fix the overall problem. Why not make it so a client won\'t get griefed as easily.
Kiern, how is it a stupid, and the fact that it defeats the purpose of a RT MMORPG? I would much rather zone crawl with my friends in peace, then worry about some high level jack *@! that is trying to have a little fun at our expense.
Is this not supposed to be a game that is fun? Why do I, as someone who is trying to have fun, want to have to deal with people stealing my kills? It?s no fun, and fun is the name of the game right? No wait its PlaneShift, but you get my point.
No disrespect is meant with this post; just want to understand what you all mean.
Thanks much,
Forsythe
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personally i think its a good idea.... i\'d get so pissed off if every time i was about to kill a monster or something someone else came up and kiled it instead.. although this wont completely get rid of it it will reduce it a lot :D
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Originally posted by Forsythe Why do I, as someone who is trying to have fun, want to have to deal with people stealing my kills? It?s no fun, and fun is the name of the game right? No wait its PlaneShift, but you get my point.
Because it\'s a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game, not just regular multiplayer which has no community or anything...how do you meet people? how do you get people to join your guild? I know it\'s just a minor part since you can do this in other places, but it takes you out of the game.
If this gets put in the game I guess I\'ll be busy doing other stuff, if I wanted that I\'d go play the other games that have it...no, I\'m not cheap (or not broke) and am perfectly willing to pay for a good game.
That\'s my opinion on it.
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i comploetly agree with kern i\'ll go back to eq full time
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or you could like close a dungeon when it gets \"full\"?
probably not a good idea but yeah ?(
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Originally posted by Xelon
or you could like close a dungeon when it gets \"full\"?
probably not a good idea but yeah ?(
another problem with instancing... some forms of it only prolong that \'waiting in line\' fealing
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Hey guys I partially like the idea but I don\'t think we\'ll have it in CB or DB or what ever you call the closest 2 or 3 alpha releases... So let\'s not argue about it?
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Originally posted by Drilixer
Originally posted by Xelon
or you could like close a dungeon when it gets \"full\"?
probably not a good idea but yeah ?(
another problem with instancing... some forms of it only prolong that \'waiting in line\' fealing
yeah i see your point but meh... its probs not feasible but when it does get \"full\" you open up a mirror dungeon of it?
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Originally posted by Xelon
Originally posted by Drilixer
Originally posted by Xelon
or you could like close a dungeon when it gets \"full\"?
probably not a good idea but yeah ?(
another problem with instancing... some forms of it only prolong that \'waiting in line\' fealing
yeah i see your point but meh... its probs not feasible but when it does get \"full\" you open up a mirror dungeon of it?
sounds alot like Diablo to me :D
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Instancing removes immersion and realism.
It would be easier to deal with people camping drops if there was PK in such places. I mean, one of the main aspects of MMORPG\'s (if not the main) is player-player interaction, and mobs being camped is one of the harder issues to solve in a friendly way, so it presents a challenge for the players and motivation to get involved in factions/clans/groups, and socializing beyond your current social circle.
Because it seems bad at the moment you experience it, doesn\'t mean it doesn\'t increase the overall gaming experience.
That a better post Forsythe?
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pshh.. id like to see any of you come up with anything better 8)
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If any of you have played ragnarok online, you will know what he is talking about. I think its a really good idea...because certain things will just get camped and killed within the first minute it spawns. With ranarok....all the bosses were basically camped 24/7....one or two guilds could camp every boss on both servers. They would kill it and come back on the hour to get it again. It was the most annoying thing about the game. If not using the zone instancing, use random spawning on the map...complete. Its no good to know exactly where one thing will spawn. Random places and times are good enough to stop that.
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Originally posted by Ice_Phoenix
Hey guys I partially like the idea but I don\'t think we\'ll have it in CB or DB or what ever you call the closest 2 or 3 alpha releases... So let\'s not argue about it?
Right...so we just argue about it when it\'s annoying the hell out of 3/4ths of the players...that\'s useful
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There have been some big threads on this before. The answer to what works best, is both. That is both have their place. Instancing lets you create more advanced stories, puzzles, and events in a quest. But it\'s not truly (massive) multi-player. As a device of convenience alone, it should not be used. Comparatively, it is also more technically difficult to implement, so it won\'t be in Planeshift in any form regardless very soon.
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I dont play Planeshift so much, as dont work fine in my computer (waiting for MB... hope it will work better...), and my english its not so good... hope you\'ll understand too.
I played some other MMORPG (yeah, starting on UO and passing through EQ and others not that classic...). Instancing the dungeons its not a bad idea, not much realistic, but an small idea for avoid full camped areas. This is ok for games like EQ, where they need the most people playing at time as possible (pople=money there, should i say this?), and a nice idea for an small world thought for 1000 people where realy live 5-7000 (world of EQ). It was impossible there to find an area completely empty, and hard to find a nice spot for exp at mid-high lvls. The other trouble was the KS. First of all, there is the technical solution (if someone hits more than 50%, he got the kill) wich is just at the start but... when you do a looong quest, spawn a creature, and then someone else kills the creature and breaks the quest... or what about those people who loot corpses that are not their, getting the others reward? the main solution was petition to the GMs and wait.
Ok, but this is not EQ. You wont be in a world thought for 1000 people (ok, at the start maybe, but hope it will expand ;)). You wont have a GM 8 hours each day solving those petitions (probably they will have other preferences). This is pretend to be a Roll-Role Player (wich i understand ;)) game, so doing exp wont be 80% of time (hope this too ;)). If you like roleplay, you will find a lot of things to do, if you like to do exp and get loot... will be possible too... if you want to be ubba in 1 month and then raid to the biggest highend creature... there is always EQ ;).
And about KS, ok, they suck, and instancinb still be a solution. But what happen when someone steals in a MMORPG? usually people start to know his reputation... Maybe he lose the guild, maybe hes not accepted in any other, maybe he creates a new character as noone wants to join him, maybe (and hope this too ;)) someone puts price on your head... the petition its not the only way, in EQ happened, some people had to change account, or remove al chars... some guilds (yeah, entire guilds too P) had to disband and scatter when they KS a big mob to another guild, as noone wanted to join they, people left, people KS they (no PK in most EQ servers P).
I dont like KS, and i dont like instancing (ill post why in another moment... have to sleep P). The best solution i see is to accept they as a normal kind of player, just as an outlaw. They would be outcast, maybe thy would join together, to Ks each other (??), but its a part of the game, and the world (are not there bandits in our real world?). This is my opinion, based on wich i have readed about the game, wich i know about other games, and maybe some dreams...
Another time, sorry for my bad english ;)
Erthel
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I\'m against instancing because it defeats the immersion sense in the world and segregates your friends from the community as a whole--taking the MM out of the ORPG acronym.
There are two issues those games are trying to solve that PS is probably not going to try to solve.
a) World is too small and people are too uber. Having \"all the bosses camped\" is a function of both of those. Infinite replication of the bosses (instancing) is one solution to that problem, but a sucky one.
b) Games with instancing are trying to cater to more casual gamers, who want to play for shorter periods of time and don\'t have time to spend an hour, or even 15 minutes, looking for a group or waiting for a cave to clear. I think those people should just play single player games on their PCs or consoles and not worry about paying $13/month for the right to play by themselves on a server. On the other hand, those companies are genius to allow people to pay them a monthly fee to play by themselves. :-) We don\'t have to worry about payments or revenue.
Also instancing has its problems. For one thing there is a LOT of pressure not to quit your group in the middle of an instance assignment. If you leave, you cannot be replaced in the group. Typical LDON instance quests in EQ are 4-6 hrs long, and if you have to leave, your group is screwed. So by trying to cater to the short-time gamer, they have actually made it worse in some ways.
Hopefully this helps, although I doubt it will convince anyone.
- Venge
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Bah instancing! I don\'t REALLY think it\'s a good idea at the moment...maybe when the game is biger there will be a point of introducing instancing...
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boss spawning can be countered by makeing the bosses more uber so that no 1 can stand a chance alone aginst a boss and even if they have a \'team\' it\'ll still be Hard* (as in possiable but not really easy)
yeah this idea may suck but it will most likly improve in game role-playing
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Originally posted by snow_RAveN
boss spawning can be countered by makeing the bosses more uber so that no 1 can stand a chance alone aginst a boss and even if they have a \'team\' it\'ll still be Hard* (as in possiable but not really easy)
yeah this idea may suck but it will most likly improve in game role-playing
bah someone will solo it - just making things harder w/out other changes doesn\'t tend to help
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Personally i dont think that this will be a big problem in PS. I think the world will be big enough to support the amount of people playing, and combat isnt the only thing to do in the game. Plenty of people will be working on their other skills...
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Why would everything have to have a static spawn point anyway? Do all MMO games really always spawn the same monsters in the same spots? I wouldn\'t know. That sounds really dumb though.
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now so yall know, im not for or against this instancing dungeon idea, but i think the major dungeons it would be fine in, but if its smalll and nothing special goes on except a few items, some exp, and maybe rarely 1 magical or better item will spawn in the chest or on the mob or whatever, that\'d be fine
but for the major dungeons if its gonna have really good things such as a ton of exp, or a unique weapon that can be sold for alot, and can be gotten again, or whatever, then i say yes those should be instanced, otherwhys it defeats the purpose of controling a certain point in PvP if someone can just run in and they escape a death from other PvP\'s, so i dont know what good would come out of it if it removes one bad thing and 1 good thing either way
and so some ppl out there know, some PvP player like to be able to control things and other also like to take control of those things as well
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Being some one thats played MMORPG\'s games utilizeing instanced Zones, all i can say is its the best damned thing since sliced bread. Im surprised its taken as long as this to be implemented in MMORPGs, since The now canned Middle Earth Roleplay mmorpg that Sierra was going to develope had the idea over 5 years ago... although Sierra are now long gone the way of teh dodo.
Those that are against instanceing of zones, have obviousely never played a commercial mmorpg and therefore are justifying there opinions on ideas and screwed logic, such as \"it will ruin community and roleplaying\" rather than baseing there opnion on actualy experiances.
Since those with experiance in camping spawns, waiting in line for weeks for there turn at a raid mob\'s, or loot mobs, waiting at zone lines for camps to open up inside over crowded \"best EXP\" dungeons, or explorers that travel dungeons and get miffed at meeting every man and there dog around every supposedly dangerouse corner, will know that instance zoneing is the current fresh breath of air for the MMORPG world.
i dont follow the dictum of \"embrace every thing thats new\" but id make a big exception in this case.
being within a city with 1000 people is fun... being inside a dungeon with those same 1000 people is NOT fun period.
As for KS\'s reputation is not a option for control and often most KSing arrises from altercations between groups vieing for a specific mob or area, in a spawning mob type situation with a large player base near by mobs eventualy dry out, a good example would be the Giant Fort in the Frontier Mountains on Kunark in EQ, or velketors labyrinth on Veliouse, with alot of groups, and few high level soloers the fort or velks would generaly be empty of mobs, KSing and aggression regulary pops up regulary between other wise peacefull groups. Even I myself have KS\'d from other groups to supply my own group or myself with EXP simply because time is preciouse and why waste time on your ass when i could be fighting and leveling. instanced dungeons solve this problem perfectly.
And unless someone comes up with some other magic bullet to solve these problems, instanceing of dungeon zones is the best solution. i doubt there is a more efficient solution.
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as i said, it\'d be alright if it were only major dungeons instead of minor ones, cause major dungeons are the places that are gonna be overcrowded, other then that i think it wouldnt be worth it
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With a open-source MMORPG, and some clever design/managing, not having instancing shouldn\'t be a problem.
With balanced mobs, lots of land, and a large amount of mobs (not neccecairily variety), you can just move to another area to find decent hunting.
The issue of KS\'ing really depends on the combat system, have to wait until we have something that indicates how the combat system will handle different scenarios.
Those that are against instanceing of zones, have obviousely never played a commercial mmorpg and therefore are justifying there opinions on ideas and screwed logic, such as \"it will ruin community and roleplaying\" rather than baseing there opnion on actualy experiances.
I won\'t even respond to such a shockingly ignorant statement.
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i think the way Anarchy Online did their zone instancing was pretty ingenious... with uber mobs and bosses like EQ has those zones should not be instanced but the small mini-bosses and zones like crushbone/karnor castle, sebilis (except trak area) should be instanced and the area with the major boss should not be instanced, and cities and open areas should all be uninstanced also...
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I think that small scale instancing is a good idea, however if it is taken too far it would ruin the gameplay. The only MMORPG I have played so far is Asheron\'s Call, and one of it\'s major problems with quests was that a second party could break a the first parties quest on a multi-part quest (Aeirlinth suffered from this) and some other quests simply suffered from over-crowding - so, perhaps there should be instancing on certian areas based on -
popularity (if a dungeon is overcrowded, perhaps it should be split into multiple instances (NOTE: not one for each group, just a few, say 3) reducing overcrowding, but still having multiple people in a dungeon)
breakability (if a quest could be broken by several parties doing it at once, then it needs to be instanced (of course a far simpler way is simply to make the quests non-breakable))
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Originally posted by Rulzern
I won\'t even respond to such a shockingly ignorant statement.
Arrogant... i would say yes, Ignorant... i would say no.
I dont see anything ignorant about that comment of mine. Your comment however shows to me in my eyes a sense of ignorance.
With a open-source MMORPG, and some clever design/managing, not having instancing shouldn\'t be a problem.
I suppose Open-source makes them some how differant from and better than other highly funded, very talented Development teams working for multimillion dollar backers?. These guys live or die by there ideas.. if there game flops there out looking for another producer or there reputation is so badly damaged no producer will ever fund another project of theres again.
With balanced mobs, lots of land, and a large amount of mobs (not neccecairily variety), you can just move to another area to find decent hunting.
So giveing people lots more mobs (in number) will solve the problem?, giveing them more land and there by more mobs will solve the problem?... and I dont see where your comeing from with the Balanced mobs idea?...
Humans are an interesting species, you give em as much land to roam in as possable and what do they do.. they gather together into a group and settle down, while more come and join them... the same thing happens in MMORPG\'s. Most MMORPG\'s have more than enough space and more than enough mobs, takeing EQ as my prime example since its the one ive played the longest, has numerouse zones that are exedingly suitable for player numbers well into the 3 digit numbers to hunt in, how ever due to exp differances players congregate into \"best bang for your buck\" zones to go hunt while some of the best zones for fun go completely empty for years... places such as the old Droga and Nurga Dungeons and Skyfire (sept for epic hunting Cleric partys) the only way to fix this would be to make all areas give the exact same exp for all the mobs, and every mob in the game will drop the exact same items, every time. bit extreme yes but unless you do this players will look for the \"best bang for there buck\" zones, camps, mobs etc and do the old lemming thing. ive seen it a million times. even if you have one zone or one mob that gives 1 exp point more than normal give it a short time and every one will be hunting that zone or that mob and leaveing the others.
The issue of KS\'ing really depends on the combat system, have to wait until we have something that indicates how the combat system will handle different scenarios.
its funny how after 5 years of MMORPG (which in the computer game development world is a damn damn long time, go back 3 years and take a look at how games have progressed, heck graphical engines are almost 200% better than they where 2 years ago) its taken them this long to come up with instanceing of zones to remove most of the problems, one issue i guess would have been network technologie has improved along with server power.
KS\'ing has little if nothing to do with combat systems, in EQ what ever person/group ever did over half the damge got the exp and loot rights, in UO it didnt realy matter since it was purely skill based although looseing a mob (and there fore a chance of gaining a point in skill) to some uber d3wd who killed it in one hit for no particular reason oter than hes mass farming leather for tailoring was pretty infuriating, in DaoC I cant realy remeber how they worked out exp in said situation i beleive it was the same as EQ in that its based on who ever did the most damage. Unfortunately there isnt a suitable combat system out there that could solve KS\'ing, for instance make one that the first player/group to hit teh mob gains all exp and loot rights, result ks\'s will run up and engage mobs before there being pulled and therefor stuff it up for every one out there, technicaly the only combat system that actualy works is the over 50% damage gains exp and loot system, why reinvent the wheel when its mostly perfect to begin with, yes it has problems such as high level players \"damage raceing\" a lower level group just to get the mobs loot, but funnly enough... instanceing fixes that since, hmm well the low level group would be the only one in the area, and they wouldnt have to contend with the uber high up KSer since he\'d be in his own instanced area.
Ninja looting is another nasty that instanceing solves, since the player access to the loot is reduced to only those within the instanced area, and those people are there grouped by choice and no outsider can take advatage, you might get the odd pain in the rear that is Main looter and then goes LD at the end of a dungeon crawl with all the loot. but you can pass the word around and never invite him to your group again.
In over 5 years of MMORPG evolution theyve come along way since there beginings in meridian59, Lineage and the like, in all of those years (which as i mentioned is a long long time in any computer industry, its taken them almost 2 and a half years to get instanceing actualy into a MMORPG), instanceing is singley the best solution to many of the old bugbears of MMORPGing. What you have to ask your self is, if there was as you suggest other ways of fixing these problems, why has it taken them so long for them to find one?... easiest answer... there hasnt been one. untill now.
And im affraid to burst your bubble, but the PS team will not find some magic solution, open-source or not, that the other payed, veteran development teams had\'nt already thought of.
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Typical LDON instance quests in EQ are 4-6 hrs long, and if you have to leave, your group is screwed. So by trying to cater to the short-time gamer, they have actually made it worse in some ways.
The average adventure time is around an hour or so, prep time and party gathering takes about 10-20 minutes depending on group members, a LDoN raid might reach into the 4 hour range due to organizing the guild, and prep time. but your average adventure in LDoN takes as i mentioned an hour, some groups have gotten the killing spree and collection missions down to 30 minutes, and thats with a very minimal group setup, heck ive seen people three box LDoN adventures now :P . If a mission goes awol, the players can easily just leave and then cancel the adventure, they still gain adventure points just not as many as if they had completed it. Once canceld the players can hop right back into another one once theyve gotten replacements.
Also the exp rateing on most LDoN dungeons is alot higher than normal exp (bar PoP zones) result is the casual player can get just as much benefit from a small stint single adventure in and hour and a half than they would normaly get adventuring in a normal old world zone for a few hours. Adding also the fact they can store points to buy very decent items of raid quality they normaly wouldnt be able to get unless they where part of a top tier guild that had very rigourse raid hours (why people join guilds that set a time table on raiding is beyond me, sounds more like a job than a fun get together). Do you actualy or have you played EQ vengeance?...
LDoN has been one of the best breaths of life EQ has had in years, and most EQ players would agree with me on that.
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It has taken this long for MMORPGs to deliver this not because networking is fundamentally different from what it was 3 yrs ago, but because game cos have decided to become casual gamer whores, catering to the 1 hr/day player instead of the 10 hr/day player, because there are more of them to pay.
- Venge
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Originally posted by Bigfoot
...So giveing people lots more mobs (in number) will solve the problem?, giveing them more land and there by more mobs will solve the problem?... and I dont see where your comeing from with the Balanced mobs idea?...
...players congregate into \"best bang for your buck\" zones to go hunt while some of the best zones for fun go completely empty for years...
This is exactly what they meant by balanced mobs. If you have several areas with equal \"bang for your buck\" it will disperse the player population. While yes, this would be a challenging thing to do, this is not impossible, and would help spread out those who like to camp.
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Originally posted by Vengeance
It has taken this long for MMORPGs to deliver this not because networking is fundamentally different from what it was 3 yrs ago, but because game cos have decided to become casual gamer whores, catering to the 1 hr/day player instead of the 10 hr/day player, because there are more of them to pay.
- Venge
Thats good buisness practice after all they need and want to make money, and there customers need to be kept happy, MMORPG developers have discovered finaly funnly enough that there average player base is not made up of masses of 16 year olds at home dureing the school holidays or un-employed students with more time on there hands than they should have. there player base is made up of often family people, with children and full time jobs. The vast majority of my old guild in EQ where husband and wife couples that all knew each other, and most people I would group with would come out with comments like \"Hold on the pulls i gotta put teh baby to bed\" or \"My wifes parents are comeing over gotta camp\" or the all to common \"i gotta log, the better half just came home :P \". That baby one is a personal experiance, although in truth the guy i was grouped with blurted out over the group chat that he almost droped his baby while playing he was so tired (late night playing session while pacifying the baby after it woke up, due to time zone differances i happened to be around to group with).
There are very few in fact 10/hr plus gamers out there in the MMORPG world. I was one of them simply because I was lucky to only be working part time, and even i didnt push 10+ a day, every day, maybe on the weekend.
Oddly, Id bet to say that the vast majority of YOUR player base and expectant player base are these casual players, you seem to have a grudge against. What with school hours, after school jobs, family time and the so such. Your attitude seems rather reversed for a supposed free project, i guess your cattering for the game junkies that do little but sit in there room all day with the curtain pulled obsessing over there exp to kill ratio and weather they can afford that uber sword of greatness theyve been monitoring all week in the bazzar. Although as a free project you wouldnt have the access to the server services needed to run a commercial sized player base, so cattering to a smaller player base of full time players would probably be wise.
You do realise also that instanceing requires alot more server power than a normal non instanced world?, im sure the codeing plays alot in reduceing the need, but running multiply copys of an area would require quite the horse power, particulary if you had them numbering into the hundreds (with a good sized player base this would in most cases be true). I also never mentioned that the time its taken to find a solution was related to server power increaseing over the years, i only assumed that for my self as one possabilty, it wasnt stated as fact.
I still say that if the payed proffesionals have taken as long as this to find a good solution in the form of instancing to solve these old time problems (instanceing in it self isnt completly a new idea), then i doubt PS will come up with a better one... if you do, slap a pattend(sp) on it quick... you could make alot from money from it.
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Instancing is not a solution to said problems, it is creating an entirely new gameplay method in which those problems no longer exist. When you fix a problem, that implies what you fixed now exists in an optimal state. This creates something entirely different from what was originally there. That\'s not an opinion, or meant to conflict with anything anybody has said, it\'s simply a statement of logical truth.
Just saying that they are two seperate gameplay entities, and instancing is not an improved version of anything.
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Originally posted by Rulzern
I won\'t even respond to such a shockingly ignorant statement.
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Arrogant... i would say yes, Ignorant... i would say no.
I dont see anything ignorant about that comment of mine. Your comment however shows to me in my eyes a sense of ignorance.
I don\'t really get this, you say that everybody who doesn\'t share your opinion obviously has never played a MMORPG and uses screwy logic. I have played quite a few MMORPG\'s, and although we may not share opinions, atleast i don\'t question your sanity for not agreeing with me.
On to the topic, I agree a lot with wedge, and have a few comments to add to it.
Making things easier/faster/bigger doesn\'t make them better, and taking away the social element from some parts of MMORPG\'s defeats the purpose of MMORPG\'s really, IMHO.
And on the quests being in caves and being a few hours long, in my favourite MMORPG of all time, endless ages, i have well over 200 hours logged in a single quest, about 100 of which are in the cave where the main part of the quest plays out, and haven\'t finished it yet. It doesn\'t become repetetive or boring (except one particular part that is, but only spendt some 4-6 hours on that one), because of both the active part other people play in the quest, and the challenges i face with other players.
Just because I\'m pissed as hell one night, doesn\'t make the system worse. If the system was non-pk, i would be bored with the quest long ago. If it was a short quest (actually, it is, it\'s just really hard :p), i wouldn\'t feel proud from completing it at all.
But EA is a game for people with a lot of patience, and a lot of people don\'t. (4 months played, still not halfway completed my characters)
Wow, really got sidetracked now.
My point is that if EA was made easier, it wouldn\'t be as enjoyable as i feel it is, at all.
It\'s all about personal opinions though, I like working on something for days or weeks at end, and when i finally get it, i can feel like the king of the world for a week. But some people like working on something for an hour, then going to bed happy.
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I only have one thing to say on this topic..
Preparing to go to a static dungeon would be nothing less than hell if there wasn\'t more than one zone.. the place would be camped 24/7 and there is absolutely nothing fun sitting around waiting for it to become your turn to gank the mob that drops the phat lewt, or complete\'s your quest in the end..
and if a free game such as ps doesn\'t have this, imagine the amount of people camping dungeons and special mobs.. it would be almost impossible to do, extremely frustrating, and boring.. not to mention the kill stealers who would most likely turn up out of the blue and force you into waiting for the next spawn, where this process might very well repeat itself.
And mind you, there are loads and loads of these people out there, just waiting to come gank you and steal your kill..
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I\'d say lets limit online time per account to 100hours/month to improve level of sanity in future PS player base ;-)
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I do not want to add anything to the zone instancing flame war right now, but I beta-tested Horizons: Empire of Istaria, and they seem to have a \"solution\" for the looting of your kills: the corpse \"belongs\" to the killer (this statement does not take KS into account, since I never experienced it), and only he could loot it.
I do not remember if the corpse became public domain or something after a time without the killer looting it, but something like that sounds solid to me.
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Originally posted by Xalthar
not to mention the kill stealers who would most likely turn up out of the blue and force you into waiting for the next spawn, where this process might very well repeat itself.
And mind you, there are loads and loads of these people out there, just waiting to come gank you and steal your kill..
I think some form of a moderation system could take care of this.
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I say mark players for having killed a boss.
when they try to fight a certain boss again...fruitless
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Just as long as NPC guards don\'t steal my kills like in some games *cough*Everquest*cough*, I\'ll be a happy camper :)
But let\'s take EQ for example.
dungeons massing... only newb dungeons have lots of players, and in fact, a lot of times people help each other, you make friends, solve quests.
Hard to find dungeons have much less players, it\'s all fair to me.
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Hello,
actually, I have my troubles with Zone Instancing ...
I have been playing DAoC f?r one and a half year, which uses no Zone Instancing, and there are a couple of things that are hard for me to imagine how to get that right with Instancing.
Case 1:
I log on, see a couple of my friends venturing in [the dangerous dungeon], and I tell them asking whether they need my help. They invite me to join their group, and I enter the dungeon in hope of meeting them there.
What if I entered a different instance? - I couldn\'t meet my friends then, which would be more than annoying. Can I choose which instance I enter? - this would really take away a lot of the \"world\" feeling a MMORPG offers (\"Which dungeon do you want to enter? - the [overcrowded], [nicely filled] or [almost empty] ?\" ).
Case 2:
I am crazy enough to try and sneak into [the dangerous dungeon]. I\'m skilled enough to venture deep into the dungeon, dodging patrols and bosses on the way. Down below I meet a group of heroes which fought their way into the dungeon, and I group with them to continue my search of the dungeon.
Would this be possible with Zone Instancing? It has happened to me quite often, and I loved it (even if it consisted only of waving and exchanging nice phrases).
After all, MMORPG is about feelings, and human relations :)
I personally like the \"outlawing\" idea that was mentioned before. This game is about the community (as far as I unterstood the board) - so let the community take care of their renegades. I think developing in this direction would fit the game better than just locking it away and let everybody have it\'s own dungeon.
Thank you,
Jacer
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The best solution to zone instancing is to offer something better. First of all, more dungeons, the more it is, the better, less crowded. Second, sway the players interest in different directions(If there\'s nothing to do, other than kill kill kill, and the only places that offer that are dungeons, then I question the game itself. Third, make restrictions to enter some dungeons, (have permits to enter it), if it\'s related to a quest, there will be much less people, well at least less newbs.
If a game uses zone instancing, it\'s not a bad thing, but to me in my mind, I wonder how much thought they put into the role play of the game. Sure zone instancing was probably hard to accomplish, programming wise, but the 3 things I described above are much harder to accomplish as well.
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Case 1:
I log on, see a couple of my friends venturing in [the dangerous dungeon], and I tell them asking whether they need my help. They invite me to join their group, and I enter the dungeon in hope of meeting them there.
What if I entered a different instance? - I couldn\'t meet my friends then, which would be more than annoying. Can I choose which instance I enter? - this would really take away a lot of the \"world\" feeling a MMORPG offers (\"Which dungeon do you want to enter? - the [overcrowded], [nicely filled] or [almost empty] ?\" ).
the middle earth online game sierra was developing was going to utilise a password system where if some one wished to join your dungeon group you could give them teh password you where given on entry to teh dungeon and that allowed them to access the instance you where in. EQ doesnt allow you to join in an adventure thats already underway, however if your regular group is off else where, just group up with some one new and make a few more friends, or enemies.
Case 2:
I am crazy enough to try and sneak into [the dangerous dungeon]. I\'m skilled enough to venture deep into the dungeon, dodging patrols and bosses on the way. Down below I meet a group of heroes which fought their way into the dungeon, and I group with them to continue my search of the dungeon.
Would this be possible with Zone Instancing? It has happened to me quite often, and I loved it (even if it consisted only of waving and exchanging nice phrases).
Now in solo exploreing a dungeon i have no real problem with meeting others further in. its when your exploreing as a group or have a specific target in mind that finding that some ones beat you to the punch or laid claim to stuff further on that it becomes a pain in the butt. its a right atmosphere killer, the worst of alls are the high level characters that run past you mid fight and clear out the dungeon further along while you and party have pushed through mid-way.
now what if your \"skills\" failed you and you caused a train of mobs in your exploration and wiped out that party you exchanged greetings with further back in teh dungeon?, there experiance would be ruined all becuase of an exploreing player new to the dungeon... ive seen this happen so much and had it happen to me as well, and it aint a very good comunity builder :P , and few nice phrases come out of it.