PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kixie on January 18, 2004, 08:07:58 am
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The internet is choked full of graphic designers and other misc. physical artists mostly because most of the things the things on the net have to do with some sort of art involving drawing and 3d sculpting. But i say no more!! I\'m sick of not being able to contribute to ps in anyway possible. So I enbark to use my musical skills to make a theme song for PS!!!
I have not yet spoke with the devs and i dont plan to untill i have finished my set of songs. I\'m aiming for a lutish midevil sound in the songs much like the ones already in planeshift but better sounding and better in quality. Any contributions such as lyrics, instrument ideas or good inspirational ideas would be much apprieciated. Please post them to this board or send them to my email, Supercoolsuperspud@hotmail.com.
Whemyfield
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and just how are you going to do this
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I wish you very good luck with your project.
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Yes, godspeed.
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Good luck m8. I cant do anything either, exept irc :P And FXP quite a lot, and if you need help I might be able to help with the music
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Originally posted by druke
and just how are you going to do this
Well one of my friends has a recording studio in his basement. I have no idea how he got this, its almost pure luck. But anyways I think im going to write 2 or 3 songs for a month or 2 then record them for 1 week and then send them to the dev team see if they like what they hear. If they do like it alot then i will make songs for the final version. But Ill think of that when i get to it. first i need to start makin some songs.
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Good luck m8
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Hmm, I\'ll be interested in the results, good luck m8. :D
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yeah, may a muse come and stay. ;)
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May a sexy lil harpist help you :)
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wow goodluck
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read the PSL 1st, make sure you know what exactly you are doing with anything you write... personally, i\'d publish it under the GPL...
the PlaneShift Lisence gives the PS dev team a monopoly on anything you give them, noone else can use it in any other project, game, etc. (not even if you let them, if I understood correctly)
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really thats fine by me. im making the music FOR planeshift and only planeshift. If they give me credit awesome, if they dont still awesome cus i get to hear my music on planeshift which makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside... :D
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Best of luck, can\'t wait to hear some! :D
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heh, I would love to have some of the steelish hymn\'s of Manowar mixed with a little bit of Nazgul\'s symphonic battle music into play :D :P imagine the rush of battle sweep over you accompanied by powerful symphonic STEEL to get that frenzy running :D
oh well, I\'m just dreaming again :P
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Hopefully you can make something better for the dungeon too...
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ya good luck whemy, i look forward to hearing what your music will sound like 8) but i think the current theme song is sweet already...
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I agree. The current theme will own and eat whatever you do. Go for the dungeon music; you bang your younger siblings heads into kitchen utensils and it will sound better than the shit they are using now.
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The current dungeon music tends to give me a headache. :(
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Indeed, it seems much too chaotic.
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I may be able to be of some help...I am a musician myself. I also have recording equipment, PA system/guitars/bass/drums/piano/keyboard/clarinet and of course the digital recorder.
Also, I have a program (expensive one) well known and used for many theme songs for movies such as Gladiator, the new Star Wars and more. It is called Finale, and lets you notate music for virtually any insturment and then plays it back. Let me know if there is something you need.
Oh, and Good Luck!
(Here is my Email: ESDalec@hotmail.com)
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I have been working on new music for PS myself with fruityloops3, but thats a techno creater and its not sounding too great, but its better than the current stuff!!! :D
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Originally posted by Dalec
It is called Finale, and lets you notate music for virtually any insturment and then plays it back.
I\'ve been looking for such a program for a long time now. I assume it allows you to connect a midi keyboard and compose from there? That would be just awesome. How hard is it to learn to use, also? :D
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yeh Olig i love fruity, but i dont think its appropriate for PS. Even tho the current music is not too good...but they\'ll improve..I know it :)
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In reply to Karyuu,
It is very simple to use, but there is so much content that it gets kind of difficult to do some of the more advanced stuff. But even then, it is only a matter of looking it up in help or the manual.
Also, it does indeed support midi keyboard, and that is fairly simple to use as well. Bear in mind the program is a bit pricy, they ask for $600 or something on the site, but I got mine new on Ebay for $230 or so.
It is perfect for theme music, especially games, since it plays back the music with each instrument sounding like they should (i.e. violin sounds like violin, Bagpipes sound like...well crap but thats just because bagpipes sound like crap :p )
The current music for PS sounds like it could even use it, or at least a similar program :P
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Thanks for the reply, Dalec :)
I had a midi cord stashed away somewhere for the longest time. Time to put it to use :P
*hums the Ebay song*
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Well just a little update.... I have guitar completely finished and most of the other little instruments and effects but.... I am stuck on if i should have vocals... vocals complete a song. They help it bump up from the good factor to the Wonderfull factor. They are just that important. But if i do that i have to have it in some language (a given duh) and planeshift is an assorted group. I really like japanese vocals, but for one some people hate it, and the other fact is i know of no people who have a great voice and speak japanese. But then there is french. French songs sound WONDERFULL if done right. Everyone here is either american or in a european nations so they will have heard french before and the vocals wont be way over their head (translation wise). Plus there are a bunch of girls in my school who speak pretty good frech and are in choir. So all i have to do is persuade (or pay) one of them to sing some vocals. But the problem there is I first need a good translator. So im gonna make some good lyrics, but i need someone to translate them in a poetic fashon (make them rhyme or have some sort of rythym). Im hitting a brick wall here people. So should i have vocals and make it sound good or should i just leave them behind and produce instrumentals only?
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You don\'t want Finale for recording-- it is designed for music notation and Sibelius is better than Finale for that. I\'ve used both extensively (literally hundreds of pages of music) and Sibelius is easier to use hands down. If you need to record music, you want to get Sonar from Cakewalk or one of the home versions of that program (there are others someone might recommend). ProTools is the industry standard, but that is VERY pricey. Cakewalk will do everything you want, most likely, and will come in an affordable version. http://www.cakewalk.com
I\'m recording some stuff for PS because I like doing game music, I\'m in between recording gigs, and of all the MMORPGs I\'ve seen online, this one seems to be the furthest along. Judging from what I\'ve read, the new version will be even better, so I hope I can help out the project for some time to come. Listen for my tracks in the new version in some of the new parts of the world.
Nick
http://www.nicholaspalmer.com
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I never recomended it as a recording program, in fact I have my own digital recorded. If you notice, Karyuu said he intended to use it to make *compositions* which is what Finale was designed for. Anyway, don\'t listen to the nay sayer, Finale is a great program.
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Hey, Dalec,
I shouldn\'t have come down so hard on Finale. It is still the industry standard in American music publishing and Sibelius is not available in a scaled down version, whereas with Finale you can get Finale Allegro ($200ish), PrintMusic ($50ish), and Notepad (used to be free, not sure what it is now). If you are a college student, you can get deep discounts on almost all software of any kind, so all these things become pretty affordable.
You mentioned that you have a digital recorder-- what do you use to sequence? I gather from your posts that you use Finale to play the synthesizer and that you record that performance with a digital recorder of some kind. If I\'m wrong, tell me, but I want to steer musicians away from Finale as a sequencer because it has very limited functionality. There are several programs ranging from cheap to expensive that do sequencing much better and handle digital recording besides. As you and I agree, I think, Finale produces a nice looking page of printed music because that is what it is designed to do, but other, much easier to use software can be found for handling sequencing. If you haven\'t discovered some of the great software out there, you\'re in for a wonderful surprise.
Nick
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Originally posted by Dalec
If you notice, Karyuu said he intended to use it to make *compositions* which is what Finale was designed for.
... she :P
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How funny what we assume...
I stand by my recommendation that if you want to write a game track, you need to use sequencing software, not notational software, unless you are planning to record live music and plan to mix away from a computer. If you are going to do your mixing with a computer, you most definitely need a sequencer that handles audio editing.
Nick
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Originally posted by willaert
How funny what we assume...
I stand by my recommendation that if you want to write a game track, you need to use sequencing software, not notational software, unless you are planning to record live music and plan to mix away from a computer. If you are going to do your mixing with a computer, you most definitely need a sequencer that handles audio editing.
Nick
Well, since they\'re talking about recording studios and instruments, I think that\'s what they\'re going to do.
I have been working on new music for PS myself with fruityloops3, but thats a techno creater and its not sounding too great, but its better than the current stuff!!!
Wow, nice job, I think if you can do even half as good as the current stuff with fruityloops you\'re qualified to be part of the dev team :-P
Anyway, I love the current music, and hope there will be more in CB and future releases, so good luck to all musicians who intend to do something for PS.
Music is as important as graphics IMO.
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Just a lil note, kidna off-subject.
Olig, I love your sig...do you play WH 40k?
OK- you may now resume your conversation!
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You\'re right, I should have read more carefully allof the posts-- Karyuu is recording live. Got it. (I still say get Sibelius if you can afford Finale because the learning curve is much gentler.) I was responding more than anything to Dalec\'s comment:
It [Finale] is perfect for theme music, especially games, since it plays back the music with each instrument sounding like they should...
I know I\'m going on and on, but...There are four different skills involved here: composition, notation (for printing), sequencing, and recording. Finale and Sibelius are tools for composition and notation. The other two skills require different software/hardware, a good bit of time, practice, and guidance to make something that sounds right.
I hear a variety in the quality of tracks playing in PS right now which has more to do with the quality of the sounds being used rather than the style of composition (though that is apparent, too). The title music uses low quality (i.e., low sampling rate) instruments, but the track works because the composition and sequencing are good. The temple music uses much higher quality instruments and so, even though the composition and sequencing is roughly the same quality as the other tracks, the pure sound is much more enjoyable to me.
The much-maligned cavern track is supposed to sound disjointed and disorienting. I think it works pretty well because the first time you\'re there, you are lost in a maze for a while. I think the track would work better if the cello sound were of higher quality.
Anyway, all the music on PS was produced on a computer and it sounds to me like very little if any of it was actually played in freely because of the metrical exactness. A track with some live music would really be cool, but it is not cheap (money or time) to pull off a good-sounding live recording.
Done.
Nick
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Of course better programs are out their. But I find even the playback for Finale produces sound good enough for some actualy in game music, not that I would reccomend it. However, it does help to create some good work to be played live. Being able to play back the music just makes it easier to write a better song.
P.S. Sorry about calling you a he Karyuu \"Bows head in shame\" :P
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Originally posted by Dalec
P.S. Sorry about calling you a he Karyuu \"Bows head in shame\" :P
Not a problem. For some reason, no matter what name I choose (even if it sounds feminine) or where I go, if people don\'t know that I\'m a female they automatically assume I\'m male. It\'s quite amusing. This episode has taken up yet another slot in my \"Gender Misidentity\" log ;D
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um great conversation everyone is having :rolleyes: but no one has answered or even acknowleged my question. should there be vocals? if so, in what language?
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Originally posted by whemyfield
um great conversation everyone is having :rolleyes:
Thanks for noticing, Whemy. Since that\'s what forums are for.
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i dont have a problem with talking but when the whole topic of the thread is ignored and my question isnt even ACKNOWLEGED, something is wrong.
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Whatever you experiment with, try the track out with the game and see how it works. You have to convert your audio file to .ogg (there\'s a free ogg converter on the web) and rename it according to the filename you want to replace in the planeshift/art/music directory. When you play the game, your track will play at the right time.
Where to put vocals? I don\'t know, probably not in the caverns or outside. I\'d like to hear some ethereal vocals in the temple in a language I don\'t recognize, or something in the tavern might do well with vocals.
Nick
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I\'m not a fan of vocals, too many issues to consider. Probably only in \"holy areas,\" \"dream worlds,\" etc.
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Im not quick on responding, sorry about that Whemy. I dont know if there is much room in PS for vocals...I mean what other game (similar to this genre) has vocals in the music? It just doesnt seem to fit the setting, except of course holy area\'s where you could do a church choir effect.
I am curios as to what kind of music you have recorded. Guitars are great and all, I love playing myself, but I can\'t really picture guitar in a good roleplaying game? I would imagine more brass and violin instruments with some timpani drums or something. Maybe it\'s just me and I do hope you prove me wrong.
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But they are sampled, alas. This track works well in the Laanx temple. Try it out and tell me what you think.
http://www.nicholaspalmer.com/audio/temple_music.wma
It won\'t work in the temple unless you turn off the game music and play this track in Windows Media player.
Nick
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Wow, that\'s pretty good, willaert! Definitely better than the music now, I believe.
:tup:
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the longer I stay in these forums the more inferior I feel :D
Thank god there will be more than just one temple. I like both ambiences :)
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Well Im using guitar because im going for a \"lute-ish\" feel. I want to make some Music that starts old medievil style but then works into a nice tempo that everyone can enjoy. thats how i envision the music of planeshift.
EDIT: i just listened to that wonderfull sample but I feel something is missing. The high pitched strums dont feel right. I really thought that the temple music should have something as majestic as the music in HALO if not better. Good effort, it sounds good but not really what i think the temple should sound like.
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I\'m going to have to play Halo or get a hold of the soundtrack-- it gets mentioned so many times it seems to be a standard to measure other game tracks by.
Re my temple music-- I wanted to create what I think of as typical religious music-- monophonic chanting in an old church mode, with light, unobtrusive instrumental support. I cheated a little because I have two voices singing at once and then a reed instrument improvises on the modal scale. I added a lot of reverb so that the music sounds like it could be coming from somewhere in the building. I don\'t know-- a big brassy sound suggests political power to me, or a large, impressive landscape. Temples make me think of mystery and quiet. Oh well. Didn\'t work for you, whemy-- sorry!
Nick
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gees dont get so uptight about it. i was just giving contructive critisism... most good artists seem to want that. I didnt say it sucked or it was bad, but just things that didnt seem to work with the style I beleived you were trying to create.
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?( He didn\'t seem to be uptight about it...
I have to say that my idea of temple music is similar to yours Willaert. Not too complex, and maybe sort of dark and mysterious. I like your piece, and agree that a fair amount of reverb is a good thing in temple music... but, I don\'t know if it\'s the fact that you have a lot of sounds in the same pitch range, or the type and/or amout of reverb, but it seems to get a little muddy in places. (Or, maybe the release time could be shortened a little on your main melodies[?]).
Anyway, I like the feel of your piece. (And, in fact, I like all of the other music by you that I\'ve heard).
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Not bad at all, I like it myself. I did feel that the strings kind of held on too long, I think perhaps it could use some change in that ped. point-effectively not really making it a ped. tone at all. (Haha using music terms)
Anyway, I liked the feel just thought the strings need a little more variety. Keep it up!
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Hey guys, don\'t worry about me-- say what comes to mind. I never take offense and I learn not only about my piece but about you, too :) Don\'t you agree that people say more in their posts than they sometimes know themselves?
I have a pretty good sense of what I can do and can\'t (I don\'t write lyrics or sing). Like anybody, I enjoy compliments, but I appreciate criticism more because I have to think a bit. If someone offers a simple thumbs up or thumbs down on a piece of mine, I don\'t have to think much about that and I\'ve only learned a little bit of information: I\'ve heard someone\'s first impression, a thing I cannot possibly experience with my own music. It isn\'t a lot, but it is interesting and I\'m glad to know it. However, I appreciate even more, and agree with completely, Galendan\'s critique-- the melody is lost in a couple of places, especially in the second half, because of the heavy reverb. I have already been tinkering with that the last couple of days-- trying to keep the sense of a huge space but allowing the melody to sing clearly.
Nick
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Hey, Whemy, you started a very popular thread-- was it the title or the content or both?
Nick
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I think it is the title, thats what got me to read it, anyway it has a good rating, prob cuz we stayed on topic (or did) :P
Just noticed you said your sample song had vocals Wil. I am wondering if Whemy meant the same type of vocals, I assumed he meant vocals with a lyric, as in a more traditional song on the radio or something. This is what I would more object to, though I won\'t make any final judgements before I hear it. Anyway, I didn\'t consider the choir effect to be vocals, that fits in quite nicely for religous music :)
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I believe whemy and daryuu were talking about lyrics, too. I think lyrics would be ok as long as they were incomprehensible and only in certain parts of the game like the tavern or the temple. If the game is to give the impression of other worldliness, I don\'t think an actual, living language can be used without sounding a little comical. But I could be wrong...
Nick
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Tavern? I don\'t know. Too many races meet in the tavern to have some sort of vocals, as that would mean one language (even if a nonexistant one). Temple is good, maybe even a dungeon area, but I think that the tavern music should be left as instrumental only.
Edit: typo
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I feel that the Tavern ambience should be \"busy\". Not so much music as much typical tavern noises. I think that vocals should be part of this ambience, but certainly incomprehensible. Something to the effect of 10 or so voices talking simultaniously, so that, while all the voices may in fact be saying something, its hard to focus in on any particular voice; as it would be in a real crowded tavern. Along with the vocals, there would be the clanking of mugs and other common sounds...
Just my 2 tria, as if anyone cares...
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http://home.ripway.com/2004-2/70201/tavern05.wav (http://home.ripway.com/2004-2/70201/tavern05.wav)
http://home.ripway.com/2004-2/70201/tavern10.wav (http://home.ripway.com/2004-2/70201/tavern10.wav)
http://home.ripway.com/2004-2/70201/tavern18.wav (http://home.ripway.com/2004-2/70201/tavern18.wav)
http://home.ripway.com/2004-2/70201/tavern24.wav (http://home.ripway.com/2004-2/70201/tavern24.wav)
http://home.ripway.com/2004-2/70201/tavern31.wav (http://home.ripway.com/2004-2/70201/tavern31.wav)
You mean sounds like these?
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lol \"mmoore wine\"
definately nice sounds for the tavern. but somehow it has to be planned out when playing these sounds because theres a risk they will be played over and over and won\'t sound natural after a few times hearing them.
and I loved the temple music :) good job on that.
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Here\'s an idea, its a longshot but worth posting I think. Maybe (if the this class can be included) Bard\'s could actually play songs, and would be payed some small amount to play in a tavern? The more complicated songs you know the more you could be payed---maybe even have multiple bards joining to make one song to encourage a grouping. That would really add a lot of roleplaying and fun to the bard class.
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yes i would like that very much too. bards are my favorite RP character. They most reflect my real life. Its dissapointing that you cant really be one in morrowind however. *cries*
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I would leave the vocals out.
In my humble opinion, vocals will become irritating as they will be heard over and over again.
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At the same time, I hate entering empty taverns and hearing vocals in the background. If there are several NPCs hanging around, that\'s fine. But vocals when no one is around... meh. I hope it shall not come to that.
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yeah. i\'m definitely down with the silence. voices coming from nowhere is too much like real life.
don\'t you guys have that problem?
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oh i dunno, i think it\'d be pretty cool to have a trigger so that if a certain amount of people in the tavern causes a muffled discussion sort of noise, or maybe an npc performs in the corner.
Originally posted by Karyuu
At the same time, I hate entering empty taverns and hearing vocals in the background. If there are several NPCs hanging around, that\'s fine. But vocals when no one is around... meh. I hope it shall not come to that.
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I liked the vocals in \"Drakan: order of the flame\". Say what you will about the game, but the music really had athmosphere.
Vocals doesn\'t have to mean anything. You dont have to sing in any special language to give athmosphere and feeling to your music. Voices are ideal for environments such as Dungeons, Temples, Beautiful places, Woods, Deserts and palaces.
If you want you can experiment with the voices to make them sound strange and unhuman. That should add to the feeling as well.
I wish you good luck with the music-creation. I will give it a shot as well as soon as I buy a new sound-card and get my expensive music-program to work. :)
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I kinda like the # of people trigger thing... just my opinion
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Aye, same here! The trigger is a great idea :) Just as long as the number of people/voices is reasonable ;D
And...
\"Voices are ideal for environments such as Dungeons, Temples, Beautiful places, Woods, Deserts and palaces.\"
Beautiful places? Woods? -Deserts-? Don\'t you think those require more serenity and a certain.... well, lack of vocals and lack of a great number of people? At least that\'s the way I see it. Woods = not a populated city, last time I checked.
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We\'re talking about two or three things at once when we\'re talking about vocals: voices as background noise (tavern sounds with a trigger--good idea BTW), vocals in a track where someone is singing words, and wordless vocals used as another kind of instrument.
I think that wordless vocals work like violins when it comes to evoking mystery, great emotion, beauty, or even horror. We\'re accustomed to hearing that in movie scores such as LOTR and the woods of Lothlorien, and in war movies that have vocals based on ideas in Carmina Burana (e.g., Glory, Star Wars). I even think of the beginning of the game \"Descent 3\", where a solo voice is used with great effect to convey loneliness and sadness.
In all these, I don\'t recall wondering where the singing was coming from-- it was the mood that was evoked by voices that was the purpose in using them. The woods of Lothlorien music isn\'t a great example, I suppose, because the elves are singing a lament for Gandalf, and it almost sounds like the music is coming from somewhere in the woods. But you get my point-- the instruments or vocals aren\'t there because there is an orchestra or a choir present in the actual scene (or in the case of a game, the location) but because those sounds make us feel something.
Nick
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Then once again, it must be planned carefully.
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when im playing everquest, i load up on king diamon, slayer and arch enemy (i usually play evil toonz). It would be cool, if you could choose a different set of songs depending on your character/guild\'s alignment.
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If you are evil, then you will probably spend more of your time in evil settings, and to make a setting well, you have to have music to set the mood. I.E. if you are evil, you will tend to hear more of an evil setting.
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Whoops, I meant voices = vocals, but I understand that it could be confusing in this connection :)
Correction: Vocals are ideal for environments such as Dungeons, Temples, Beautiful places, Woods, Deserts and palaces.
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Whemy, if by vocals you meant people singing a lyric, then no, by no means should you use vocals. Lyrics and games don\'t mix, as people have radical variations in taste.
Senseless vocals, such as a chant add to the atmosphere of a game, ala Final Fantasy VIII, the music that played whenever Edea appeared. Not a good game, but FF\'s have always had brilliant soundtracks.
Any vocals should be completely incomprehensible.
As for different music for different locales... Temples should be accompanied by soft \'holy\' music. Willaert\'s link was broken by the time I saw this thread, so unfortunately I haven\'t heard his sample.
I believe a tavern should have a lively, jumpy beat to it. They are places of merriment afterall, and not meant to be melancholic. If the aforementioned tavern were to be a seedy, dank establishment, then naturally it would be accompanied by equally dank music.
Wonderful examples for audio are the Baldur\'s Gate games. Never let it be said that Black Isle and TSR don\'t create an immersive world, such as that working on PS no doubt wish to create.
The music is a reflection of the atmosphere. As I said before, unless it is in a temple or similar place of worship, the music should be entirely instrumental.
I think this makes sense. I hope I conveyed my point.
edit: another note; samples of background noise become very repetitive and annoying after a while, avoid at all costs.
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mm music is so cool lol i use sybelius to write stuff. It takes a long time to write stuff but lol especially when writing guitar and using major chords but im still studying guitar in music so i will be able to make guitar to =P
I think tubular bells was already used in the current cave music lol so none of that.
um like strings for temple is what ill try.
with guitar i only ever played diablo 1 but i liked the town music with the guitar and um recorder or whatever very calming music but also kinda majestic