PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Axsyrus on February 16, 2004, 01:08:02 am
-
I was thinking, why do all RPG\'s always have to do everything in numbers?
HP is a certain number, so are Mana, Fatigue, Strenght, Agility etc. but why?
IRL you have most of these things too(except for magic stuff), I never heard anyone say, \"Oh look at me, I have 200 strenght and 150 Agility\"... So why not do it the same in the game as we do it in real live.
Now comes the question, how do we define our strenght etc. IRL. I will start with HP and I hope to cover every status number here.
HP
The name already starts out bad, \"Health Points\", points would mean number so that basicly already says you have to define your health in numbers or points. IRL however, you can only feel how badly hurt you are by having pain. You can\'t say something like \"quick bring me to a hospital, I only have 5 HP left!\". So why do this in an RPG, all it does is ruin the RP part IMHO, why not just make a bar, like there usually already is, but don\'t show any numbers with it. This way you can see how high/low your health is, but it\'s impossible to say \"I\'ve only got 5 HP left\", as there aren\'t \"points\" anymore this way, just a bar.
Mana
This one is a bit harder, as you don\'t have mana IRL. But you can still ask yourself how you would now how high/low your mana would be if you had it. Would it be numbers? I don\'t think so, it would be the same as with HP I think, you feel normal when you have full mana, but as you use it you start to feel empty or something. So my suggestion would be to do this the same way as I would handle HP, simply a bar, like you have now, but without numbers.
Fatigue
Firstly, yes, there will be fatigue(they wouldn\'t make a bar in the status window for it if they didn\'t want to implement it would they :P). With this again, I hope you won\'t see any numbers, like \"you only have 3 fatigue points left, please take a nap\", but instead your character will just get slow, maybe even falls down when his fatigue is low, no need for a bar here IMHO (there are some other threads covering fatigue/sleep etc. there are nice ideas in there).
Attribute Points
The Attribute Points(strenght etc.) are a bit harder, since you define them in the character creation with numbers. However, I think that if you want the game more RP like, you should remove the numbers even there. I was thinking about some bar that you could just could drag up/down(or anything else, just not numbers). Once you would be playing, I think numbers should be completely removed too, so an NPC can\'t say \"you can\'t buy this weapon, your strenght isn\'t high enough\" or something. Instead you can buy the weapon, and you would drop it when you tried to equip it(or something like that).
Stenght
IRL you have strength without number too, so why not ingame, you just train it the normal way(fighting, even going to the gym maybe), and when you want to know how high your strenght is, you just have to try it out(just like IRL). so for example, you go to a gym and try to lift some weigths, if you can\'t lift, let\'s say, 50 kilos, than you know how powerful you are.
Endurance
To find out your endurance IRL, you can just go running with someone for a while, to say who gets tired first. So why not do this ingame, just \"duel\" someone to run with you, and if you last longer than him, you know who\'s got the most endurance.
Agility
Same thing as endurance and strength, you\'ve just got to try it out, duel someone to throw some stuff at you or something and then try to evade it, or just go fight some monsters. You don\'t need the numbers to know your agility.
Intelligence
Intelligence is harder, you can\'t just measure it like you measure strenght or endurance, you would have to take a test IRL. So unlike with the other stats, you do have to measure this stat with numbers. However, this doesn\'t mean you would always know these numbers, if you\'re interested in them, let your character make a test(the character makes the test, not the player!) and you\'ll get the score.
Will
Will is probably the hardest stat to measure. You never really say you have a certain amount of will IRL. I think the best solution for it would be some sort of test too.
Charisma
Like will, Charisma is very hard to define IRL. So a test of some sort would be best.
I hope I covered everything I wanted to cover here. again, the tests are done by the character, the player just sits in front of his screen doing nothing while the character does the test(some sort of reading/writing animation or whatever).
PS. just before I wanted to post this, I found a thread that Talad took from the old forums, you can find it here (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=76&boardid=11).
My idea is different as there won\'t be a way to see your status at all as you \"level up\", you\'ve got to visit the gym(or anything else) first. I think it would be a good idea to have some sort of note book for your character where you can write down your stats. This way you won\'t have to remember everything as the player.
EDIT: fixed the URL to talad\'s post, why did nobody tell me it was broken :\\
-
Using numbers in RPGs is simple, quick, and easy.
Games arn\'t supposed to be as vague and unreadable as real life, and if they were, I would definitely not be a gamer.
-
Yay, all hail the numberlessness!!!
I think this is a good idea. I\'m not too sure about the stats, as they are much harder to do, maybe if they started as numbers in the character creation screen, but when you go in game, they change so that you can\'t see what they are, but the server can tell. Maybe they could change into some sort of bar, with say a skill of 100 being at the top, and 0 at the bottom, but with no numbers in between. Then when u reach 100, it changes so 1000 is top, so you roughly what skill lvl u are, but u can\'t tell exactly. .... but for HP, MP, and FP, I see no problems, and would be very cool. :D
And a notebook?? I\'d like that ingame somewhere.... Would be very useful for jotting down notes. :D
Edit: booo moogie, u have to post a small post and ruin it all!!! :P :D
-
I agree, although not quite so extreme. The only thing that stuck out to me this time is that it would be ok if an NPC player instead of saying, \"You can\'t buy that, you have to be level 45 strength\" They can just say, \"You can\'t buy that, as you\'re not strong enough to wield it.\" Anyway, I think this should be a compromise, some numbers are necessary in a game, but Axsyrus is right in saying that it does get very dull and annoying to always be level # this or HP # that. I think bars are a good idea.
-
this could be cool. but it could also be bad. pretty much you would always be in the dark on what your good at... Have you ever played tiger woods PGA tour 2004? pretty cool how they measure stats and stuff. You have percents at how good you are at the skills. this could work for stats and skills. However I would like to level stats and skills differently and have them do different interfaces.
But this is a mmorpg. Theres a reason 9/10ths of them have stayed to the true measure of numbers. All the successfull ones use em. Although that really isnt a good reason, especially considering the game we are trying to build here, the numbers have survived this long and I\'m sure they are still here for some good reason so why not just keep em here? Do what you will developers, I\'ll still play.
-
Yes, I was talking in extremes a bit here. :)
Just think about this the same as IRL, you won\'t see anyone telling you you can\'t buy something because you\'re not strong enough there(how would he know). And you never know exactly what your skills and strengths are. So I don\'t think it would be that bad, you still know aproximately how strong/skilled you are, just not enough anymore to go around shouting \"I have 50 strength woohoo\", wich I think is stupid anyways.
-
Well, Ax, in some ways you\'re right, but in some ways you\'re wrong. Trainers in gyms don\'t let you kill yourself trying to benchpress something that\'s way too heavy for you, etc. Also, remember, this IS a game, not real life, but in general, I agree with you, numbers are starting to annoy me.
-
HP, Mana, and Stamina bars i can stand not seeing numbers - it\'s the stats i want to know all the time.
There could possibly be a number in brackets showing a certain amount of play between numbers IE: -/+4 would be the [common] max, because you havn\'t used a skill that uses that ability that much. If you\'ve never swung a long sword, how do you know how strong you are?
This would be where the -/+# would come in. The more you swing your sword, the closer that -/+ would get to 0. If you fail to practice that ability for awhile, the number would grow to a certain amount based on race. Races specializing in Strength will always have a good idea (-/+2) of where they stand, where as a race focusing on inteligence may not know how strong they are (-/+6) but know very well how Inteligent they are (-/+1)
-
I personally think this is a bad idea. I think you should be able to tell people how much HP and MP they have or I have. A bar is just too inaccurate for me, besides this is the \"magical world of Planeshift,\" not boring old life Planeshift.\" Like it says when you exit the game.
-
also there are implications with lore skills
eg.. say there is a beastlore skill which can be used to determine the stats of a creature (this would be a usefull skill for monster hunters, animal trainers etc).. how, without a numerical representation of stats, would this work?
-
I know... the best RPG must don\'t heave numbers but...
Without numbers, how do you create your character... just clicking in a race and conecting !?
witout numbers is more realistic, but with numbers is more game :]
So you play your life or you play a game !?
-
Originally posted by Phinehas
Well, Ax, in some ways you\'re right, but in some ways you\'re wrong. Trainers in gyms don\'t let you kill yourself trying to benchpress something that\'s way too heavy for you, etc. Also, remember, this IS a game, not real life, but in general, I agree with you, numbers are starting to annoy me.
I was talking about the example of the merchant NPC here, not about a trainer. like I said, if it\'s possible IRL, it would be possible ingame too. and I was still talking in extremes, not everything would have to be implemented immidiatly, first start with one stat, then anothor, just to test how it\'ll work.
Originally posted by Saphire
HP, Mana, and Stamina bars i can stand not seeing numbers - it\'s the stats i want to know all the time.
You do see these stats all the time, just not in a numerical representation. you would see a bar or something, if it would be full you would have full HP, if it would be empty you would have no HP. so you can still see if you can fight a monster without dieing after 1 hit, but you can\'t see it in numbers.
Originally posted by Kuiper7986
I personally think this is a bad idea. I think you should be able to tell people how much HP and MP they have or I have.
Why? this completely ruins the roleplay aspect of the game.. you just have to say something like \"I can lift 200 kilos in the gym\" or \"I can kill 5 trepors without even getting hurt\" now. doesn\'t sound bad to me at all.
Originally posted by Deddarus
eg.. say there is a beastlore skill which can be used to determine the stats of a creature (this would be a usefull skill for monster hunters, animal trainers etc).. how, without a numerical representation of stats, would this work?
for example it could tell you how many hits you\'d need to kill it, or how many hits it would take to kill you. You could also just see how strong he is compared to your stats, so \"this monster is smarter/stronger/faster than you\". It\'s really not that hard to replace stats with something more realistic.
Originally posted by Sunken
Without numbers, how do you create your character... just clicking in a race and conecting !?
Like I explained in my post, you would have several bars, just like you would have with numbers, but without numbers ;)
for example: you\'d have one bar with the amount of points you can spend on your character, it\'s full on the start, then you add some points to other stats and the bar that was full becomes more empty. this is really the same as how it is now. you just don\'t see the numbers.
-
i agree with Axsyrus. Bars are just good. For stats i\'d like a combination of a color and a word like:
Awful -> Very bad -> Bad -> Average -> Good -> Very good -> Excellent ->Legendary -> Godly
This is enough precise and remove completely numbers. It can be even better if you had a kind of randomness so your feeling of your stats can vary depending of your humor and what you did in the last hour (if you beat a dragon, even if you are \'Excellent\', you\'ll feel \'Lengendary\')
-
well there will always be numbers. the numbers will be in the code of the game. i mean there just has to be numbers somewhere. if you dont want to see them, just customize your client and add and take away what you will. basically your systems are just replacing numbers with different words, which really isnt replacing them at all. All i see is about 9 levels with your system elscouta and i hope your trying to make the game only have 9 levels. then it would take for ever to get to the next level. So your probably going to say \"well level level 1-10 is awfull, 10-20 is very bad, etc.\" well all that is doing is taking the numbers away and adding words. not replacing them. Bassicaly thats just masking them over. So i dont want it.
-
if you had read my post, you\'ll have remarked that i also want that numbers the server send are not completely accurate. And about your point:
1/ you can\'t ask the players who want to shadow their numbers to recode their client.
2/ what Axsyrus and me want to avoid is people who say \'Hey, i\'m uber powerful, i have 247.2 in strengh while you have only 148.4\' and you can\'t recode others clients.
-
Yes, ofcourse there will be numbers, computers only work with numbers, no way to calculate anything without them ;)
-
it doesn\'t ruin it, what\'s wrong with knowing how much MP or HP people have? Maybe its telepathic abilities that are given from Talad to the people of Yliakum to know how much HP or MP each other have.
-
To be blunt, I think that\'s such a lame justification that you\'d be better off with no justification at all.
Whemy: It\'s possible that the client is never made aware of the numbers - translations of (internal) representations of numerical stats to text could be done server side with little difficulty.
I would like to see an RPG that isn\'t so stats-centric. Statistics have been a big part of RPGs since D&D, but that was because humans had to do all the tracking. Now we have computers to do that, so I think it might be a refreshing change to hide the statistics.
In addition, your perception of other peoples abilities could be based on both yours and their statistics, e.g. your perception and their charisma, so that a perceptive person would see that mr_big_guy is actually kinda feeble, but a less perceptive person would see in their description that they are \"Very Strong\" or something.
-
since no-one seems to have read the thread I\'ve tried to post(it was broken.. fixed it now), I\'ll post it again.
http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=76&boardid=11
This thread covers the descriptive skill system, however this is NOT what I\'m talking about, I don\'t want any numbers or any other up to date thing at all. If you want to know your stats, you\'d have to do something first(a test or whatever).
I hope this clears things up a bit more, and if anyone\'s interested in the game they talk about in that thread, go here: http://genesis.cs.chalmers.se/
EDIT: the stats I\'m talking about aren\'t HP/MP/Fatigue but skills, sorry if I confused someone :)
-
I like the idea of a number-less system. I used to play a role playing game with a few friends that there were pretty much no numbers for. The only thing we used numbers for were the original stats which set up where your character could basically cap out at but besides that numbers were out. Skills were based on a learning system that was pretty basic but broke down to something like you were proficcient at a simple level if you trained at it for a week, if you had time to train again for say 2 weeks you were then proficent at a standard level, then finally if you could train for 3 weeks you were at an advanced level. For every level you had to have the previous level. Everything you then did was based of your skill level which was simple, standard or advanced not that you were skill level 27 or whatever. There were many more things involved with it but this was the basic concept that it broke down to. I much prefered this system since we never had to worry about someone running around yelling I have a strength of 25 i can kick your ass, then you yelling back no I have a dexterity of 32 so you can\'t even catch me.
Besides skills there were 12 diffrent levels of stats so it went from like puny to uber etc.
-
If you want to know your stats, you\'d have to do something first(a test or whatever).
I still think there\'s a place for vague indicators, at least of some things. Often you can tell whether a person is strong or not just by looking at them. Less concrete attributes like intelligence are harder to percieve, but as a person I should have a guess as to how intelligent I am (although I suppose your argument is that that guess comes from past experience i.e. tests of intelligence)
I just think that it\'s helpful, as a player, to have some indication of the abilities of your character on a relative scale.
-
yes, maybe this could even be done with the looks of your character ?
As your character gets stronger, it will also be wider and more muscular etc. and as the new skeleton system already does shrinking etc. maybe this could be possible later too?
PS. these aren\'t wishes for any time soon, although it would be nice to have something like this implemented in a nearby release :)
-
Hmm...It seems to me that if you have a weak/medium/strong stats measure, you are basically dealing with numbers anyway. They increase as your skill increases, so what is the difference? Also, how would you know your exact requirement to use a weapon? Just from vague words like, need to be strong? Doesn\'t sound like a good idea imo :/
Also, numbers are easier to deal with for people with lag. If you can see the number of hitpoints you have and how much dmg you are taking, you have a better idea of when to run. If it is just a bar, you have to hope for the best, and not really know if you are lagging or not.
Finally, how would you display special items, such as a Sword +1? Would you just call it, Sword with slightly more power?
Numbers are easy. Thats why Human\'s invtented them :)
-
Originally posted by dfryer:
I would like to see an RPG that isn\'t so stats-centric. Statistics have been a big part of RPGs since D&D, but that was because humans had to do all the tracking. Now we have computers to do that, so I think it might be a refreshing change to hide the statistics.
I think this is a great quote to sum up what we (as in those all for this idea) would like to see. :)
I really, REALLY think we could encourage RP by taking numbers out of the game. This is because people stop focusing on their skills/attributes, and work on *playing the game*. In most MMORPG\'s I\'ve played, it\'s a day-to-day struggle to gain 5 more strength to gain that new sword, or 10 more mining skill to start mining some rare ore, etc. If you take the numbers away from the users, they will find something better to, most likely either start RP\'ing or go play something else.
So of course there\'s the next big question: \"How do we implement this?\" So far there\'s been a suggestion of using text descriptors to replace the numbers. Although I think it would be quite fascinating to see if we could do away with any sort of skills display whatsoever, it probably won\'t be possible. Or someone else might come up with another solution. :)
And another question: \"So how do I know when I can equip a weapon? Just a message that says \'you cannot yet equip this weapon?\'\" Here\'s a better idea (I have this posted somewhere else, but it\'s way too buried to find it and way too late in the evening to look for it ;) ):
No requirements on weapons/armor.
*Xandria waits for the shocked faces of everyone reading this*
Okay here\'s how it works: You create a new character which comes pre-equipped with a ratbashinstick, and start whacking away at the little vermin. You eventually come across this nice big iron broad sword. You think \"cool, mucho-damage!\" So you equip the said weapon and proceed to kill armadillos (I dunno, the best I could come up with :D). Your character starts to make his attack, except his very low strength level only allows him to swing the giant sword about once every 10 seconds, and his even lower dexterity doesn\'t allow him to have any accuracy whatsoever. So while any character can equip a weapon (as you could in real life), that doesn\'t mean you\'ll be able to do a single point of damage. And it won\'t be a case of being at the shop and going \"hey I\'ll trade in my 50-60 damage sword for this 80-90 damage axe\" because the axe uses an entirely different attribute set than the sword, plus, your character has probably been getting experienced using swords and will have to start learning axes from square one.
Okay, I\'d better stop before this gets way too long...
-
From what I can see here is most of these numberless systems would work much better with an rt combat system, turn-based is rigid, and there\'s not much option for changing it. Personally, I think Xandria\'s ideas plus one of the combat systems set forth in the \"Weapons and attacking - BIGGIE\" thread, would make for the sweetest mmorpg ever created.
-
Originally posted by Dalec
Hmm...It seems to me that if you have a weak/medium/strong stats measure, you are basically dealing with numbers anyway. They increase as your skill increases, so what is the difference? Also, how would you know your exact requirement to use a weapon? Just from vague words like, need to be strong? Doesn\'t sound like a good idea imo :/
Also, numbers are easier to deal with for people with lag. If you can see the number of hitpoints you have and how much dmg you are taking, you have a better idea of when to run. If it is just a bar, you have to hope for the best, and not really know if you are lagging or not.
Finally, how would you display special items, such as a Sword +1? Would you just call it, Sword with slightly more power?
Numbers are easy. Thats why Human\'s invtented them :)
for the [insert random number here]\'th time, MY SYSTEM IS NOT A DESCRIPTIVE SYSTEM.
I\'m not going to explain it all over again.. just read what I posted.
about your lag problems, I don\'t see how this could in any way be related in how it is shown, if you have lag your stats won\'t get updated so fast, no matter how they\'re displayed.
About your uber swords + 5, these kind of things don\'t fit in my ideas at all. What is a sword +5 anyways? if a sword would be stronger it could be enforced with steel or whatever, so that makes a \"sword enforced with steel\", maybe a it\'s long, but atleast it makes sense..
And to Xandria: I completely agree with your ideas :)
-
wow xandria, I do believe that you have made the first argument ever that has started to convice me that this may be the way to go. I\'m a D&D player from way back and still DM regularly, and I\'m VERY attached to my numbers. However, if implemented the way you described, I do believe that I could not only live with it but like it a lot. You have at least a possible convert from me. Good ideas, everyone. Keep talking about it.
-
Originally posted by Xandria
Okay here\'s how it works: You create a new character which comes pre-equipped with a ratbashinstick, and start whacking away at the little vermin. You eventually come across this nice big iron broad sword. You think \"cool, mucho-damage!\" So you equip the said weapon and proceed to kill armadillos (I dunno, the best I could come up with :D). Your character starts to make his attack, except his very low strength level only allows him to swing the giant sword about once every 10 seconds, and his even lower dexterity doesn\'t allow him to have any accuracy whatsoever. So while any character can equip a weapon (as you could in real life), that doesn\'t mean you\'ll be able to do a single point of damage. And it won\'t be a case of being at the shop and going \"hey I\'ll trade in my 50-60 damage sword for this 80-90 damage axe\" because the axe uses an entirely different attribute set than the sword, plus, your character has probably been getting experienced using swords and will have to start learning axes from square one.
I like this idea :) . The only thing that I would add would be some sort of text indicator when you look at the item to describe your ability to use it. Eg. \"The weapon feels too heavy for you to use properly\" (ie need to build up your str), or \"The weapon feels awkward to wield\" (ie you need to work on your dex). Basically the same as anyone in real life trying out a weapon. They could tell if the weapon is too heavy for them to weild properly and if the weapon design is complicated for them to wield.
-
lol, that completely makes Xandria\'s idea unnecesary. you should get to know if you can use something by trial and error. If it\'s to heavy, too bad.. go train some more.
It would be nice to try out weapons before you use them though, so you don\'t buy useless stuff all the time(just try to swing it a few times, things like that).
-
If numbers are being showed, you have a clear mathmatical understanding of where your health/mana or whatever is. With bar\'s, you\'re kind of guessing (not to say that it wouldn\'t be accurate. I like the combined idea\'s of Xandria and Ghostslayer however. You would need Ghostslayer\'s idea to make Xanria\'swork however.
Either way, numbers are easy, and it is only a matter of whether you will see them or not. No biggie if you ask me, however I still like to know how many HP I have, even if it really doesn\'t benefit me.
-
Originally posted by Axsyrus
Originally posted by Dalec
Hmm...It seems to me that if you have a weak/medium/strong stats measure, you are basically dealing with numbers anyway. They increase as your skill increases, so what is the difference? Also, how would you know your exact requirement to use a weapon? Just from vague words like, need to be strong? Doesn\'t sound like a good idea imo :/
Also, numbers are easier to deal with for people with lag. If you can see the number of hitpoints you have and how much dmg you are taking, you have a better idea of when to run. If it is just a bar, you have to hope for the best, and not really know if you are lagging or not.
Finally, how would you display special items, such as a Sword +1? Would you just call it, Sword with slightly more power?
Numbers are easy. Thats why Human\'s invtented them :)
for the [insert random number here]\'th time, MY SYSTEM IS NOT A DESCRIPTIVE SYSTEM.
I\'m not going to explain it all over again.. just read what I posted.
about your lag problems, I don\'t see how this could in any way be related in how it is shown, if you have lag your stats won\'t get updated so fast, no matter how they\'re displayed.
About your uber swords + 5, these kind of things don\'t fit in my ideas at all. What is a sword +5 anyways? if a sword would be stronger it could be enforced with steel or whatever, so that makes a \"sword enforced with steel\", maybe a it\'s long, but atleast it makes sense..
I think I was referring to someone else\'s post in here about the skill level, but I don\'t remember :P Anyway, for some reason it always seems to me that bars are updated less frequently then numbers...Maybe its just me, and if not I\'m sure the Dev\'s could come up with something. A sword +5 is an easy way of saying \'sword with enforced steel\', not to mention you can be more descriptive. I see your point, however. I still like the number system because I want to know point wise how much better one sword is going to be from another.
Example:
#\'s: Flaming Great Sword +2
8-12dmg +2 fire dmg
req: 19 str, 2H
No #: Enforced Flaming Great Sword
More powerful then a Flaming Great sword
I just find the first easier to work with. I like to know what I need and what it\'ll do, not be poking around hoping I can lift a sword. Just my thoughts and doesn\'t mean I\'m right
-
Really I dont care which way it goes. Everyone who makes the argument \"But i wanna see how much HP i have!\", it doesnt matter because your just checking what percent you have anyways. what im interested is how your going to describe stats.
The idea you have now just doesnt make sense and wouldnt work. All your doing is just masking the stats with words. And if you plan to replace the numbers, then its going to take years to get from your awful, to godly status with only 9 levels.
It really should be easier to get to the maximum of your abilities with a weapon. I mean look at real life. It doesnt matter how good someone is with a katana or whatever. if someone takes the time of one year to fling the sword around and chop things and get a general feel for the sword, they will be just as good as the so called \"masters\" weapons are very easy to master. Hence why they have stayed alive so long.
Nothing is easier to learn than the sword, thats the beauty of it. BUT if your stronger, have more dexterity, then your are considered greater because of your speed and accuracy.
So bassically what im trying to say is the actually weapon skill should be very easy to max. However attributes like strength should be VERY hard to increase. Getting stronger in real life takes a several years of very hard training, every day to get considerably stronger. The same goes with speed and dexterity. All of those take many many years to get good at.
Now (takes deep breath) I REALLY like xandria\'s idea on using any weapon whenever. This is a very good idea. You can pick up a super awesome katana any time you feel like it. but chances are, if you just start wavin it around your going to decapitate someone (chances are yourself). But working you way up to a better weapon is very realistic, and most of all different from MMORPGs today.
Well thats just about it. However i do have some general ideas about making weapons that i wanna cover *makes new thread*
-
Originally posted by Dalec
If numbers are being showed, you have a clear mathmatical understanding of where your health/mana or whatever is. With bar\'s, you\'re kind of guessing
and that\'s exactly what I\'m trying to acomplish here ;)
You don\'t always have to go into a fight and think about maths.. just fight and do whatever looks right to you, and what does the most damage. not \"I only have 40 HP left, that monster\'s attack does 35 so if I attack him now, he will attack me, I can attack him again and then I\'ve killed him with 5 HP left \".. that\'s just not realistic, it should be a game, not one big calculation.
EDIT:
\"The idea you have now just doesnt make sense and wouldnt work. All your doing is just masking the stats with words.\" - I _really_ hope you\'re not talking about my ideas here :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by Axsyrus
EDIT:
\"The idea you have now just doesnt make sense and wouldnt work. All your doing is just masking the stats with words.\" - I _really_ hope you\'re not talking about my ideas here :rolleyes:
NO i am referin to escoulota\'s post (i cant spell it... :P)
gee dont get all in a wrap axsyrus. i only offend and critisize your posts to keep you on your feet ya know. if i dont, youll get lazy and post horrible ideas. its the circle of life here on the old forum board.
-
Originally posted by Axsyrus
lol, that completely makes Xandria\'s idea unnecesary. you should get to know if you can use something by trial and error. If it\'s to heavy, too bad.. go train some more.
It would be nice to try out weapons before you use them though, so you don\'t buy useless stuff all the time(just try to swing it a few times, things like that).
I don\'t see how this would make the idea unnecessary. If you defeat an enemy, find some gigantic axe and your character has low str, just by picking it up, they would know that they would not be able to wield it properly. (Ie. if you almost fall over trying to lift the thing, you wouldn\'t bring it to battle to try it out :) )
For further clarification on my earlier thought, it could be used only if your stats were significantly lower than what was necessary. (If your stats are close, you could still use it well enough to try it out, then you would know if it is a weapon for you. It could also possibly be used if your stats were significantly higher than requirement, basically stating that you can easily use something that you just found.
-
Wow, I didn\'t realize everyone agreed with me so well; I didn\'t get that much feedback the first time I posted it...
*Xandria spends 30 minutes (seriously) trying to find the place he originally posted it*
Well, I know I posted it somewhere...anyhow:
Originally posted by whemyfield
The idea you have now just doesnt make sense and wouldnt work. All your doing is just masking the stats with words. And if you plan to replace the numbers, then its going to take years to get from your awful, to godly status with only 9 levels.
But so what? The whole idea of taking away the numbers is so that people don\'t track them. The only reason for putting words in there is so that at least you have some general idea of where you stand as far as statistics. Especially if you had multiple characters or something like that; it could get awefully confusing if there was no mention of your skills anywhere.
As far as HP/Mana bars, I think you could easily get away with not having numbers. I mean IRL, you can easily assess what kind of shape you\'re in and how bad your wounds are. But what you can\'t do is, \"well I have about 50 hp left, so I should be able to take out those two enemies that only deal 5 damage per hit.\" Remember, the only reason these numbers have been present in RPGs in the past is because with P&P you had to work with numbers in order for it to work. So let the computer mess with the numbers and allow the gamers to have fun :)
And to refine my idea a bit:
There should probably be a *bare* minimum requirement for weapon checking. As in \"you are not strong enough to wield the sword\" sort of message. But again, bare minimum will most likely be completely unacceptable as far as combat goes. But it would be kinda nice if when you were in a shop, you could have an option to \"try out\" a weapon. Basically you would receive a ghosted weapon or something in your inventory, and you could equip it and use some sort of \'test\' skill that simply waves the sword around in the air (or some cool animation like that :D) and you could get an idea for how effective it would be. If you brought a friend to the store with you, perhaps you could even do a quick parry match to try it out :) At which point, you can either buy the weapon, or walk away from the merchant/shop and the ghosted weapon would simply disappear.
The possibilities are endless, but I really do think it would be a cool system to implement 8)
-
Originally posted by whemyfield
Originally posted by Axsyrus
EDIT:
\"The idea you have now just doesnt make sense and wouldnt work. All your doing is just masking the stats with words.\" - I _really_ hope you\'re not talking about my ideas here :rolleyes:
NO i am referin to escoulota\'s post (i cant spell it... :P)
then please say you\'re refering to his post.. he hasn\'t posted for 2 days in this thread and I\'m supposed to make a wild guess who you\'re criticing..?
-
Originally posted by Axsyrus
then please say you\'re refering to his post.. he hasn\'t posted for 2 days in this thread and I\'m supposed to make a wild guess who you\'re criticing..?
yes. yes you should.
-
This was considered at one point, later we figured it would be impossible to grant a level of progression and improvement without numbers changing on regular intervals.
Overall this is a very nice idea and can be very well implemented, but won?t be any time soon.
-
ok, I didn\'t read all those posts besides first one, I don\'t really care what someone said against it, I\'m here to state my opinion :P
so:
from my experiance in roleplaying, I\'d say getting rid of numbers gives a very nice feeling. I like it when roleplaying is just about \"flowing\" with your character and not playing with the numbers.
And I\'d prefer to see playing like \"when I get stronger I\'ll go fight that monster\" instead of \"when I get lvl 50 in swords skill I\'ll go fight that monster\"
It gives you more touch with your char, which is good, isn\'t it? :)
and Planeshift is supposed to be oryginal and this idea isn\'t that much used in other games, so cheers! ;)
-
Originally posted by Phinehas
I agree, although not quite so extreme. The only thing that stuck out to me this time is that it would be ok if an NPC player instead of saying, \"You can\'t buy that, you have to be level 45 strength\" They can just say, \"You can\'t buy that, as you\'re not strong enough to wield it.\" Anyway, I think this should be a compromise, some numbers are necessary in a game, but Axsyrus is right in saying that it does get very dull and annoying to always be level # this or HP # that. I think bars are a good idea.
that\'s about how I feel. The NPC should not say, \"you gotta have level 45 str, 34 agil, etc etc\", they have to say \"You must get stronger, blabla\" , but at the same time there has to be some kind of indication in parenthasys (lvl 45 str, 34 agil required)
But I still would want to stick with numbers, it\'s much eaiser to communicate with friends, merchants, etc etc.
for ex. You are near death, well if you say \"I am near death\", nobody really knows how near to death you are, it\'s vague. But if you say, \"I\'m down to 5 hp\" it\'s clear and fast, not vague.
I think this system is really not needed for RP in Planeshift, but if it were implemented I would give it a try
-
this brings up another point and that is people are going to use numbers no matter what. if is only a bar they will say \"i only have like 4% left!\" its just easier. I would love no numbers but, this is an MMORPG so there are somethings you just gotta keep.
But the merchant idea would be good and not to hard. Although the newbs would hate not knowing how much strength to get. although this shouldnt happen to often. maybe the merchant should say \"maybe this weapon isnt for you...\" because your dexterity is low. I would like to be able to equip any weapon, any time like xandria said because this hasnt been done and is quite annoying to have to have an item you cant use because of \"imaginary\" rules.
-
well I personally believe the merchant should and will sell your anything you like even if you can\'t use it :D. hey, as long as you pay for it. But don\'t complain for not looking at prerequisites of the weapon you are holding. For example, it\'s a magic weapon that requires knowledge of spell to operate or knowlege of wielding two handed sword, or much simpler scenario, JUST NOT for your race :). once you buy it, you buy it, but you either drop it right away or the magical sword for example doesn\'t glow like it should because the knowledge is missing
-
Most tabletop RPers and longtime computer RPGers like all the numbers. They like the stats, rolls, dice, etc. It is part of the enjoyment.
Note that with PAWS skinning capability you can make a skin that doesn\'t show the numbers, though.
- Venge
-
Now I remember the big point why I came up with my idea for no weapon req\'s:
How many people have played any other form of RPG(Hack \'n Slash or whatnot) and have at one point in the higher levels of their character where they got to a point that in order to use the next greatest weapon had to spend SEVERAL DAYS leveling up because they were only off by *ONE* skill/attribute point?
*Xandria raises his hand*
Now maybe that\'ll get a few more people on my side :)
I\'d still like to hear what the devs think of this idea, because I happen to think it could be the greatest thing to happen to computer RPG\'s since...the pseudo-random number generator.
Yes I know people are attached to their numbers, but I just really think that it could make a huge difference in the entire atmosphere of the game if people could just forget about stats and skills, and just have fun RP\'ing. In such a world, I might not ever think of any other game again :)
-
Originally posted by whemyfield
this brings up another point and that is people are going to use numbers no matter what. if is only a bar they will say \"i only have like 4% left!\" its just easier. I would love no numbers but, this is an MMORPG so there are somethings you just gotta keep.
yea.... makes one wonder how the hell will people know how many % left if there aren\'t any numbers... :P
oh Venge, powerlevelers also like the numbers, but how do you think who will feel the lack of them more? :)
edit: all listen to Xandria :P
-
Originally posted by Draklar
Originally posted by whemyfield
this brings up another point and that is people are going to use numbers no matter what. if is only a bar they will say \"i only have like 4% left!\" its just easier. I would love no numbers but, this is an MMORPG so there are somethings you just gotta keep.
yea.... makes one wonder how the hell will people know how many % left if there aren\'t any numbers... :P
well if there is a bar then it would be very easy to look at it and give a percent you have left...
-
ok, but let\'s pretend that not all people are sick enough to stare at the pixels in the bar growing \'till their eyes will start to bleed...
-
Originally posted by Draklar
ok, but let\'s pretend that not all people are sick enough to stare at the pixels in the bar growing \'till their eyes will start to bleed...
??? What are you talking about??? the situation i was talking about was someone walking into town saying they needed healing and that only 4% of thier life bar was left. This would be someone using numbers in a system that was trying to prevent that kind of thing from happening.......
-
ok then.... explain me how do you know exact percent of healt left if it doesn\'t display that number...
hmm... by a bar, eh? Remember diablo? Remember how was the health and mana dispayed? the blue and red thingy... I understand you had no problems with saying how many percent of health you had left by looking at it.
-
look 4% was just a random number. like you could see that if you have half of your life bar left, that would be 50% and if there ws a quarter, that would be 25% if there was a tiny margin left i would interpret it to be about 2-4% left. The point im making is even if there are no numbers and just a bar to indicate how much life is still in the bar, your still going to tell people \"I only have x% of my life bar left\" and if you use descriptive words, people will say my life is all the way at awfull
-
hehe... in this case I\'d call weirdo\'s people that say \"I have 2-4% health left\" instead of \"I\'m almost dead\" :)
but nevermind, Mogura doesn\'t like this idea, so it will be flushed down the toilet ;)
-
Mogura doesn\'t like any ideas that have to do with roleplaying.. She\'s a powergamer. :D
Anyways, good idea. I suggested it long ago as well, but it was stomped flat then, too. No use of suggesting it again for a while, but keep it safe, don\'t throw it away. Paxx still said that there might be hope. ;)
-
well anyways this game is all about revolutionizing the mmorpg community. having no numbers would be a way to do it. This and many other things would make gamers and more importantly, other developers to take notice and use these ideas as well as make their own revolutionary ideas. After this spread people might not make clones of mmorpgs anymore and each one would have thier own little niche.
But anyways I just think that having no numbers is kinda cool, and would like to see it implemented in anyway possible. For once i agree with axsyrus, and for this special occation i would like the devs to take notice and seriously sit down and ponder on the idea of no numbers. Or at least limited numbers... c\'mon.. throw me a bone here... lol
-
Why not just associate a predetermined heading or name for a certain number? For example im strength 50 out of 100, I may be average in build, 100 out of 100 I may be extremely muscular.
As for HP\'s, mana, stamina, I think some stats still require numbers to take the guess work out of it. I mean if you run 50kms you wont be trying to guess how fatigued you are or how much further you can run until you pass out. You will feel it in your body.
-
I agree, there should be a bar system. Boo 2.....to numbers. This way people couldn\'t use guides to get figure how much this or what level that. This way noobs had nobody to rely on but themselves. 1 problem tho..what about the monster levels. Maybe the chance you have of beating the monster would be the color of its name when you target.
Exanple a Minstro has a green name to you beecause you are good and experienced but to a noob it is red meaning holy crap stay away from that thing.
That is why I am against numbers.
-
Originally posted by Mogura
Using numbers in RPGs is simple, quick, and easy.
Games arn\'t supposed to be as vague and unreadable as real life, and if they were, I would definitely not be a gamer.
I would.
I agree wholeheartedly with Axy.
-
Originally posted by Mogura
Games arn\'t supposed to be as vague and unreadable as real life, and if they were, I would definitely not be a gamer.
RPGs aren\'t supposed to be about numbers and stuff, and if they were, I would definitely not be a roleplayer.
:P
-
the idea isn\'t bad ...but the number will just have to stay ...at least underneath it all: can\'t really imagine a game or proggy trying to figure out what happens if a \"fairly good dwarven assasin\" atacks a \"pretty nasty klyros\" with a \"good\'ol half-rusted axe with a few gems in it\" ...while the klyros is wearing a \"poor man\'s shield made from clad leather, and with a few added metal pieces\"
...but i think it would be nice to try, how that works ;) ...i think it\'d be interesting to play and i\'d like to test it ...of course, there will need to be numbers underneath it all, to make the client and server know exactly how mighty that character/item/... is
-
The numbers will be there, you just won\'t see them.
-
I dont mind numbers, I know its not like that IRL but the numbers your in-game progress best and most acurately. Im sure there will be bars for quick reference, but Im also sure that we will have a certain amount (in numbers) of HP etc.
-
What if there wasn\'t a health bar at all? How about if we have players connected to these electric shock things and when your character got hurt, you got a shock. The more damage you character gets the more powerful the player is shocked. Of course there will be sensors on the things so that when the player can\'t stand the pain anymore and tears of the shock thingies, he dies, or if the player would pass out from the pain then his character would die. Or the electric shock could be for electric type magic and there could be like a lighter or something when the character is hit by fire, or a cutting device for swords,or a big club for for blunt weapons or a knife that stabs you when you\'re shot with an arrow. This would make the game a lot more like real life.
-
Originally posted by Xandria
Now I remember the big point why I came up with my idea for no weapon req\'s:
How many people have played any other form of RPG(Hack \'n Slash or whatnot) and have at one point in the higher levels of their character where they got to a point that --in order to use the next greatest weapon had to spend SEVERAL DAYS leveling up because they were only off by *ONE* skill/attribute point?--
*Xandria raises his hand*
Now maybe that\'ll get a few more people on my side :)
I\'d still like to hear what the devs think of this idea, because I happen to think it could be the greatest thing to happen to computer RPG\'s since...the pseudo-random number generator.
Yes I know people are attached to their numbers, but I just really think that it could make a huge difference in the entire atmosphere of the game if people could just forget about stats and skills, and just have fun RP\'ing. In such a world, I might not ever think of any other game again :)
That never bothered me.... Besides, it\'s the journey, not the destination that makes a trip interesting. Who knows what you might find along the way?
-
I say keep all the numbers, but hide them well by using words, graphics etc. strength can be defined with descriptive sentences about how strong you are etc.
-
I hate guesswork, makes me wanna stick with things I kNOW I can do, instead of trying new, possibly at great risk.
-
--)To please everyone you could just make it changeable in some sort of options menu. The ability to choose between bars with numbers and bars without for your personal screen...
-
Well.. then there would be those gripers that say IT ISN\'T REALISTIC!! :P You can\'t please everyone.. :(
Hey and the numberless system can be combined with this (http://planeshift.oodlz.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=19357&boardid=11&styleid=2) post!!1 :D
-
Originally posted by Omnia Mortis
I hate guesswork, makes me wanna stick with things I kNOW I can do, instead of trying new, possibly at great risk.
Exactly! That\'s exactly why we should have a numberless system -- because there\'s more risk and guesswork involved, because we\'d have to think more before our in-game actions, because we\'d have to rely on the experience of others more, and perhaps even teamwork! *gasp*
-
Anybody of you played table top RPGs before?
Yes .. it may be strange if someone saying \"uhh .. I\'m at 3HP\" instead of \"I\'m near death\" .. but there are several points about:
1.) this is a game, not real life!
2.) 3HP is quite more simple than \"uh ah .. I\'m low\"
3.) In real life you also don\'t say \"I\'m near death\" .. everybody can SEE that you skin is white, you are bleeding and broken .. so that differs game of real life!
4.) Even if you add blood and pain to that game .. this will result on throwing that game on the index .. so no kids could play that game anymore
5.) \"I\'m low is extreme subjective, while 3HP is objective\" ..
6.) Even if you have blood cancer you say .. \"my white blood cells are over 10000\" which is an indicator if you are all right or (in this case) in bad state ..
7.) If you have to multilanguage this game, you also have to transform ALL TEXT data .. that is not a wise idea!
So I still prefer 3HP instead a text indicator
Anyway .. it sound like some people will educate some players how they have to play good RPG .. but good RPG is to let the other live as they are .. you even can ignore such information but not advice others how they should play!