PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: Dalec on February 20, 2004, 09:40:49 pm
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Time and time again I see impractical ideas that would not add any fun to the game, just to make it more realistic. I ask you, why should games be more realistic all of the time? I do believe that in game physics should be as real as possible, and it is great to see realistic graphics, but don\'t start sacrifising gameplay for realism!
I bring this up because of a post in the Wish List forum. A bunch of people posted how they feel very few weapons should be in game, and it should be a challenge just to get a cheap sword. One person even wrote about hollywood, and that he felt since only a small % of actors make it big, only a small % of players in PS should be succesful in adventuring. Is adventuring not what almost every RPG is about? It is not fun if you have to play for hours just to hope for a chance that you will come across a sword.
Perhaps less weapons might be good, but don\'t go around claiming that adventuring should be a rare thing to be succesful in! I am hoping the devs see past a lot of this, and realize that an RPG is not in the slightest realistic, it is a fantasy world with make believe characters, stories, and objects. So next time you think about saying, \"They should add this because it would be more realistic,\" instead change the words realistic with \'fun\' and see if your idea is really worth posting.
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I agree on your global point.
What i don\'t agree on is your example. Everybody will agree that realism is not something which should decrease fun. But if you read the posts in the rare weapons thread, you\'ll see the pro-rare tried to explain why this will add fun.
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What is fun is not always what will be the best choice...for example, is it always fun trying to be the best at something? No, it is not, but you do it anyways...competition, etc. and it makes things a lot better in the long run...I don\'t know about there being not many weapons, but I do think it should be hard to get one, then when you do it\'s a lot better then being just given it so you can have as much fun as you want for 5 minutes til your bored with it.
If I went with what I thought would be fun instead of realistic, then a lot of people that were not me would not be having fun...usually what is realistic fits right in the middle, since realism is what people are used to.
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What is so great about realism?
that it helps to roleplay...
and that is the main point of roleplaying games I think...
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Realism should be a factor not thought of when making a game. No matter how you look at it. If by certain things being more realistic the game becomes more fun, I am all for it. However, gameplay should be fun. If it is realistic or not, it does not matter until the realism detracts from the fun. People get so caught up in making things realistic, because often it does make something more fun, that they lose sight of why they want something more realistic. That is, of course, to make the game more fun.
So my question for you is: while a game that is realistic can be fun, can you base a game purely on realism? I do not believe so, however I do believe you can base a game purely on fun, considering that is usually the main objective of any game.
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Hmm well I am a big supporter of realistic gameplay but there is such a thing as too realistic. The big attraction to games is that the player gets to be the hero, so making every character just a regular person wouldn\'t appeal to many people. In an MMORPG the whole point is everyone gets to play the hero at the same time. Sure it\'s not realistic but it also wouldn\'t be too much fun for most people. Hollywood...I don\'t know what actors have anything to do with fantasy MMORPGs. A more realistic example would be to compare the game to say Medieval(sp?) Times. Not everyone owned a sword but many people did.
But realism is hard to achieve in a fantasy based game. Think about it, this is a whole different world and our standards of realism are based on the world we live in. maybe in this alternate dimension we call Planeshift everyone does own a sword, everyone is a hero. If we modelled the game after the real world it wouldn\'t be as fun.
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Originally posted by Draklar
What is so great about realism?
that it helps to roleplay...
and that is the main point of roleplaying games I think...
This question and answer is empty. It is like saying, \"Why does 2+2=4?\" Answer: \"Because it does.\"
You have given no proof or evidence that realism helps to roleplay. And to argu your point anyway, Ill give an example of an unrealistic game that was fun (at least the multiplayer) Warcraft 3. Explain to me what at all was real about that game? The graphics were even cartoons.
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Dalec, I think that the point is every person finds different things to be fun...I played Warcraft 3 for a couple of minutes before getting bored...I also couldn\'t care less about being a hero or taking down the biggest monster because it is cool, most other people do.
I think basing something on at least some realism is better, why? I don\'t know, it is just more fun to me.
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yea, it was supposed to be empty... Neither you nor me will change his mind, so what\'s the point in getting deeper?
And I\'m not going to throw any proves.
From my experience I say in p&p RPG it is easier to rp than in any mmorpg.
And what is obvious, there\'s more realism...
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Originally posted by Kiern
Dalec, I think that the point is every person finds different things to be fun...I played Warcraft 3 for a couple of minutes before getting bored...I also couldn\'t care less about being a hero or taking down the biggest monster because it is cool, most other people do.
I think basing something on at least some realism is better, why? I don\'t know, it is just more fun to me.
I did not mean it was a fun game for everyone. There is no game that can claim that. However, it did appeal to a large audience, as I\'m sure PS is aiming to, and it was unrealistic. After all, I cant list every unrealistic game hoping I find one each person likes :P
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Well a game needs some realistic qualities, maybe not so much as EXTREME realism in a game but it does need something. As you may have noticed we have cats and demons running around in PS, so I would have to say fantasy is still winning the race :)
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Originally posted by Dalec
I did not mean it was a fun game for everyone. There is no game that can claim that. However, it did appeal to a large audience, as I\'m sure PS is aiming to, and it was unrealistic. After all, I cant list every unrealistic game hoping I find one each person likes :P
True, but you were asking what is so great about realism (aka the subject title) and the answer is, the same that is so great about being unrealistic...just whichever way you happen to think...so, if you like realism, you post ideas in the Wish List about realism, and if you don\'t, then you post unrealistic things...just because their posted does not mean they will be put into the game, their just people\'s opinions on what would make it more fun to them...which I believe was the point of your first post, for people to post what they think is fun.
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Argh this is not what I meant at all. Read the post again. I am all for having some realism if it benefits gameplay. But the first line is the one that is more important, \"Time and time again I see impractical ideas that would not add any fun to the game, just to make it more realistic.\" My aim was never to bash realism or take it away. It was to make people think twice about posting an idea saying, \"there should be sleeping hours where you must catch up on rest!\" I\'m not arguin against realism, in fact I enjoy realism a lot as sometimes (if done properly) it can really make you feel more immersed in a game.
It is like AendarCallenlasse said, the main idea in most RPG\'s is to assume the role of a hero (or villain). Having gamplay where it is extremely difficult to succeed in becoming that hero would just be frusturating and get dull. I in no way want things handed to me, but I don\'t want to feel like it is so difficult to achieve anything that I get discouraged.
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well one reason i vote for realism is this. Roleplaying a character can be fun, dont get me wrong. But the real fun for me is imagining me being zapped into a different dimention. Physics still apply. Things like swords still apply. One thing is different, i have super strength and i can do amazing things. It helps me excape my sad little life once in a while. But one thing that I took a long time thinking of, and dont really like you bashing is my limited weapons idea. If you earn your weapon through actual work, then lots of things would be fixed like huge amounts of pking, and people would enjoy thier characters so much more if they didnt just get some nice sword in 2 seconds. IDK if you like finding a gold falchion with diamonds encrusted into the hilt, on a street... fine whatever... ruin the game if you must. But I would rather earn everything I get in the game. IT makes the fun THAT much more fun. Now a golden falchion is just an example. The only weapons you should find are very, very, very crappy ones. That and maybe a nice quarter staff but thats just about it.
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I have already stated I don\'t want things handed to me Whemy. No one has suggested getting a nice sword in 2 seconds either, or finding golden weapons on the street. I simply want to be able to have a reasonable weapon without having to spend days questing/hunting for it. I have other things to do in life other than games, and what you would suggest would only be truely enjoyable to the hardcore gamers who can dedicate everything they have to the game. And I never bashed the idea, I actually hope the devs do decide to make less weapon and armor drops than some games. However, I want it to be reasonable, not RL Midieval times where I spend my life saving for a sword. Besides, I doubt anyone in RL had a sword of fire (well, a magical one)
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But one thing that I took a long time thinking of, and dont really like you bashing is my limited weapons idea.
Amazing since all I ever see you doing in the Wish List is bashing other people\'s ideas. And what I find amazing is that superhuman strength, magic, and monsters are more realistic to you then finding a sword...[/COLOR]
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find yourself a twig, Whemy :P
anyway, what I mean by realism is not thing that all is like in real life. What I mean is like example, you can take random object (like the twig :P) and use it as a weapon. That\'s more realistic, that you can do what you want.
As for the rest and stuff like that hard-to-get weapon idea:
I agree with Aendar.
It might so happen that in a dark world with lots of monsters, a lot of people are making weapons, which makes them cheaper and all...
so yea, it all depends on world
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Originally posted by Dalec
And I never bashed the idea, I actually hope the devs do decide to make less weapon and armor drops than some games.
Well it comes around as bashing when the post is about realism and all you do is talk about my idea...
Originally posted by AendarCallasse
Amazing since all I ever see you doing in the Wish List is bashing other people\'s ideas.
Yes I have bashed some threads but how about counting how many times you\'ve bashed me for stating my ideas, and then counting the times I have bashed someone for stating thiers. Then find out who the worse person here is. I may have a status known as a forum troll but that doesnt make you bashing me at every corner, not wrong.
And another thing, Superhuman strength and magic are all things that make a rpg fun. Isnt not taking realism too far the whole point of this thread. However weapons i think are one thing that should be kept at a realistic state. No one in their right mind would leave thier longsword on the ground, even if it was a rusty crappy one. A bug should not be carrying a dagger. Humanoid creatures should be the only things carrying weapons that you could use. Now if there is a cave that lots of adventurers have died in questing, or its the lair of some huge monster. Weapons could line the walls for all I care, because think about this. If someone who took all that time to get a nice weapon like that, got his arse wooped, how are you gonna do?
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Lets not get up in arms over this...
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be quiet Whemy... Aendar owns :P
And another thing, Superhuman strength and magic are all things that make a rpg fun.
For you maybe, but don\'t generalize. I left playing p&p RPGs because my GM didn\'t give me the feeling that I might die at the next corner...
so what is fun for you, might be (and probably is) boring for me[/color]
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how did this thread get in here.....
i think it is a fine line in rpg\'s between realism and fantasy after all you can fall from a mountain and die do to physic\'s (realism) but with the wave of a finger you can cast a spell to stop yourself from falling (fantasy). so if you want a game with more realism you have to reduce the fantasy and viceaversa unless you find that fine line.i agree with draklar on the subject of the feeling of death around every corner it add\'s a heart pounding adrenilin rush to the game weather it be on paper or on pc :D
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Realism isn\'t that great, or could at least be better - that\'s why a lot of people RP (not all I know)
However, we cannot escape certain things from reality. We can mess around with the setting, and the creatures, and even the physics, but you cannot get around basic human pyschology - it\'s been proven that people behave in predictable patterns, and that certain things govern what is fun.
The key is figuring out the right BALANCE of reality and fantasy. It is not acceptable to simply say that reality is bad and that fantasy land is more fun - it isn\'t as simple as black and white - if we truely want to pave the way for the MMORPG community we need to accept this and USE this knowledge to our favor when designing.
Fun is our ultimate goal - we should get there anyway we can!
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I like realism but not overdone. For example having to eat and sleep every game day would be impractical and thus not fun. However if it is too easy to become a lengendary hero then 80% of the population would likely be running around in the wilderness killing everything they see, this would soon get very repetative and boring. Making it somewhat more difficult to become an adventurer and thus more realistic makes people think about the other options open to them, ie. cartogropher, merchant, blacksmith, etc. Im not saying that if you want to be a pure adventurer you shouldnt be able to. I just feel realism, to a point anyways, helps with roleplaying. fantasy is best when properly balanced with realism.
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Originally posted by Fenrison
I like realism but not overdone. For example having to eat and sleep every game day would be impractical and thus not fun. However if it is too easy to become a lengendary hero then 80% of the population would likely be running around in the wilderness killing everything they see, this would soon get very repetative and boring. Making it somewhat more difficult to become an adventurer and thus more realistic makes people think about the other options open to them, ie. cartogropher, merchant, blacksmith, etc. Im not saying that if you want to be a pure adventurer you shouldnt be able to. I just feel realism, to a point anyways, helps with roleplaying. fantasy is best when properly balanced with realism.
Well said :) Off the topic anyways has anyone watched the new final fantasy 7 trailer yet? I am downloading it and im getting so excited I LOVED FF7 best one of them all!!
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RumebBelly: I have already pointed out that physics are a necassary realism. I am pointing out that the focus should be gameplay and not realism. Realism is a side factor that may or may not be important. Well, I think this topic is about burnt as I find myself repeating myself because people are just posting the same things I have pointed out already, or repeating what others have said. It\'s not a poll thread :P
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Like i said in the Rare Weapons post, during medevil times not everyone owned a good shiny sword, but most peasants and other poor people own a butcher knife, a hand axe, a pitch fork, maby a bow, and other things that would help them defend themselves. Here are two realistic examples of poor people using what they had succesfully:
1. The bandits and robbers in the woods of medevil England and other European countries. In the forests, they could effortlessly ambush knights wearing supurb armour and wielding expencive weapons using cheap bows and \"hit & run\" tactics. The knights simply couldnt move around as effectively in the dence forests. A fictional example of this would be Robin Hood.
2. When the mighty French army (at the time one of the best in Europe) atacked the Dutch with its supurb cavelry it seemed the Dutch didnt stand a chance. But they had a secret weapon, the Gudentag (Dutch for good day) the weapon was very inexpencive to make and required little training to use. The Dutch peasents deffeated the French army although they did not have the, what you people called \"rare\" weapons or much money.
EDIT: this should be in the Rare Weapons thread, but it still makes a point about how the poor/ritch people thing could be evened out.
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Realism in games is not about making it the same as RL IMHO, it is following the rules you made. So not doing anything impossible.
For example, you have a game that sets on a far away planet and the chars are purple aliens with small wings that can fly. now there is very low gravity on that planet so the aliens can fly although they weigh about the same as humans. This would be unrealistic if you compared it to RL, however, since the game\'s rules allow this, it will be realistic in the way I said.
This however does mean you have to have a reason for the aliens to be purple, able to fly etc. You can\'t just say they fly because it\'s on a far away planet. Also you\'ve got to let ALL other factors in the game follow these rules.
The point of realism in RPG\'s would be because it would make it a LOT more easier to roleplay(you know, the RP part of RPG). You just have to follow the rules. So RPG\'s should be very realistic, as in following the rules, not as in being exactly the same as real live. However since a lot of the rules in RPG\'s seem to be the same as in RL, realism will cause a game to be like it, unless you define other rules..
so IMO, the developers should either make the rules so that everything is follows them, not putting things in the game and just say \"it\'s a game, we don\'t need logical explanations\". So if we can live our lives in an RPG without sleeping, there has to be a reason for it(your char sleeps while you\'re not playing for example)..
But they had a secret weapon, the Gudentag (Dutch for good day)
actually, it would be \"goedendag\", what you said is german or something(although it might be old dutch :\\) :P
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eh RussianVodka, in medieval times you didn\'t see monsters running all around so weapons weren\'t that important... in Yliakum however life is much more dangerous and it\'ll be obvious that people will make more weapons, therefore they\'ll get cheaper.
So in this case cheap swords would be rather realistic thing.
Dalec: you were saying something about my answer being empty... there, Axsyrus extended it :P
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Yes, there were no monsters in Medevil times, but back then people didnt know that :P. And anyways, they had biger things to wory about than a mutated rabbit lookalikes steeling their mana potions. Like raiders, bandits, invading armies, ect.
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Originally posted by Draklar
be quiet Whemy... Aendar owns :P
And another thing, Superhuman strength and magic are all things that make a rpg fun.
For you maybe, but don\'t generalize. I left playing p&p RPGs because my GM didn\'t give me the feeling that I might die at the next corner...
so what is fun for you, might be (and probably is) boring for me[/color]
I totally agree. Realism is the way to go. The sense of danger and excitement are essential.
I agree with you Dalec, the Holywood idea should not be used for mmorpg LOL, he just used to show that not all times you could succeed even if you want to. That should be somewhat true in MMORPG. Now, let\'s say for example you are a smith and all of a sudden you want to be a hero killing machine. Wait wait wait, stick to your day job. How\'s that possible, you chose to be a smith and didn\'t work on developing fight skills. But this is where MMORPG steps in. It should be possible, but NOT right away. I hope you see my point.
As for adventures and quests, now all should be able to do it right away, and it will be like that, and I stress that it should not be beable/doable for everyone.
Let\'s say you are this chaotic good guy who wants to do a quest specifically for the evil guy, or it could be a certain race quest. You can\'t do it because you just not allowed, do you agree that at least that should be true?
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Sashok: I am getting really tired of repeating my points. I have stated over and over that I think their should be realism in game, but for a fun factor, not just to make the game more realistic.
And if you have played a MMORPG before, you will know that if you are a smith, you will not sit around smithing all day. You will in fact go out hunting and spend more time fighting monsters than in the smith-it would be boring jsut to sit in a smith all day waiting for your fire to heat up. My point is this: Would you find it more fun making your weapons through a fairly simple to understand procedure that is fun, and not too repetetive? Or would you rather have to go buy the bucket of water, put salts in it, buy the material for heating the fire, etc etc etc. just to make one weapon? I think this would become extremely boring and repetetive, just like a real smiths job is. MAKE IT FUN! IF IT IS FUN BY BEING REAL, THEN GREAT! I am not arguing not to make anything realistic. I am tired of saying this!!!!
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yes, I actually would prefer to be very close to real smith, this would garantee that people like you, no offence, would not be able to construct weapons as good as mine. Do you see my point as well? Of course it would be impossible to make the process of anything, not just smithing, like in the real world. It takes years or months to make a good sword, but still I find the idea that if you are serious about smithing, you should dedicated your time just to that. If you are serious about fighting, you should dedicate your time just to that, and so on.
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You havn\'t thought about my smith idea enough yet to really understand what I am talking about. That system might seem cool the first couple times you do it, but if your in a game and your a blacksmith, that is going to get really boring really fast. Yet another example of how realism would get in the way of fun. You think blacksmith\'s liked going to the forge every day and had fun doing it? Like any job, if you are passionate about it, it can be fun. But no job is always fun, and games should always be fun. Your point is broken. Find a better one.
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ok, fun fun fun, all I hear is fun. I want to have fun as well, but at the same time I will sacrifise some of my fun for the feeling that I\'m really good at something particular because I put in time and research in it. Sure, it will not be fun to others because it would take them just as much as it took me for example, but at the end it\'s rewarding.
We have different views that\'s all. You think it\'s a game and there\'s absolutely no need to get fully involved, no strings attached. Play one day, beat the whole game, that\'s it. That works for single player rpgs, where you don\'t need to live in a community of players. It does not work in mmorpg where thousands of players spend their time competing at something.
You might be right, at some point smithing could become a bore, so that\'s when you can go on adventures, become a merchant, sell your months work, etc..
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Games are supposed to be fun, I agree with you there. However, I think doing something you\'re good at and standing out, being known by many people etc. is a LOT more fun then just aimlessly clearing out dungeons in the hope you\'ll just might level up 1 point that day..
And like sashok said, this is an MMORPG, you should interact with the community, this is online. you shouldn\'t just play it like any offline game with the only difference that there is a build in chat..
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Originally posted by sashok20
We have different views that\'s all. You think it\'s a game and there\'s absolutely no need to get fully involved, no strings attached. Play one day, beat the whole game, that\'s it. That works for single player rpgs, where you don\'t need to live in a community of players. It does not work in mmorpg where thousands of players spend their time competing at something.
You might be right, at some point smithing could become a bore, so that\'s when you can go on adventures, become a merchant, sell your months work, etc..
Now you are telling me what I think? I never said you don\'t need to get involved. I never said you need to beat an rpg in a day. Again your arguments are invalid. I have years of experience with actual P2P commercial MMORPGs and I know what can be fun, and what is just over the line and boring. I am backing my points up with my personal knowledge and experience first hand. I understand how a MMORPG works, and it is nothing like a single player RPG. However, you do have to cater to EACH and EVERY player to try and give them all the same oppurtunity to have fun, or else you don\'t grow a very good community. Each player wants to feel special and recognized. The fact is, this is generally not something that happens. Just because one person has more time to dedicate to a game doesn\'t mean others should miss out.
I agree, community is very important in a MMORPG. In fact, it is the driving factor in a good one. What made EQ so popular? Surely not the gameplay. Nor argument here, it seems like you are making up points against me that don\'t really exist, and it is getting annoying.
And to say that when you get bored with smithing, you just pack it up and go adventuring, well that is my point exactly. There should be a balance of your merchant work and your adventuring. Just being a plain smith the whole game would be dull and repetetive.
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sashok,
What MMORPG have you played? Even the games with craftskills well thought out and somewhat fun, do not envolve months of research. In general crafting is not as exciting as adventuring because no one ever dies while making something.
Dalec,
I get your point. I do not like to hear the words \"it will make the game more realistic\" even when they are typed by my own hand.
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Realism isn\'t implemented to make a game like real life, it\'s implemented because it\'s the easiest way to increase a player\'s \"belief\" in a world - the more far fetched things get, the less plausable they become to the player, thus lowering the player\'s immersion in the world.
Less Immerison = Less Fun
Of course you can get away with completely turning reality upside down IF you explain why and how this is possible!
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Beware using personal experience as evidence in an arguement - it has it\'s weaknesses.
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Catering to everyone is the number one way to fail - it is impossible to please everyone.
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Devs are often forced to go by the fact that many players DON\'T know what they want in a game and that they DON\'T know why they\'re having fun. Some ideas that sound really cool in theory may actually make things less fun once implemented.....
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Ok, Dalec :D I must apologize, it\'s getting a little out of hand. I have hard time explaining myself and you don\'t want to give in even a little lol. Let\'s not go any further.
derwoodly, I\'ve plaed EQ(addictive like drugs with the withdrawal period after lol), that\'s when you realize you just killed months of your life. I\'ve played Runes***ape,( I won\'t even go there)I\'ve played A tale in a desert, but only for the free period, that was the only game that had potential, but I didn\'t want to go any further because it didn\'t have no sort of combat and it was just a mess.
Well, not a lot of games of course, you guys probably know a lot more about mmorpgs, but I have an idea of this stuff myself, I\'m sticking to my views.
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games need to have a good basic realistic physics engine so that the game is believable allowing you to really feel like you are part of the game. or some barfetched story to make it seem believable :D
one of the best examples for this is halo. the most unrealistic game of the century. non of the physics were done right since you have personal shields but can still get killed in one hit, being hit with a rocket and dieing is acceptable but being hit with a shot gun and dieing in one hit is just plain wrong, a personal shield will block one shot from a bullet weapon no matter what since the main idea of most personal shields is to slow down particles coming towards you hence being hit by bullet weapons would just be like someone throwing really small stones at you. and another thing thats really stuffed up with it is that if you get hit in the back of the head by a punch of whatever you instantly die lol. also they have personal shields and big space ships with teleportation devices and they still use bullet weapons?!?!?!?
because of all these factors its harder to emerse yourself with halo since you just have to forget about all the stuffed up things and act like its some other copy of a fps like medal of honor or something except you are in funny space suits lol :rolleyes:
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I agree with Fenrison--a very nice post in a sea of pointless argumentativeness.
Realism is fun when it adds to immersion, and not fun when it detracts from the pace, adrenaline or other factors in the game which contribute to fun besides immersion.
We are going for very immersive, which means very consistent. We are also going for fun so don\'t listen to all these pointless posts about \"realism\" by sleeping 1/3rd of your online time because that is just stupid.
- Venge
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if i start sounding repetitive with the rest of the posts, then ingore me.
IMO, realism doesnt necessarily mean based on real life. to me, realism in an rpg(mmo or otherwise) can more accurately be described as continuity. if this realism runs along the same lines as in real life, then fine, if it doesnt, so what. realism doesnt have to mean that you must go get a pail of salt water and and manually go through the entire process of making a weapon, but it can mean that if you make lots of swords then youre going to be able to make some high quality swords that are more durable and hold an edge longer than its\' generic counterparts. one thing i have noticed is that there is some level of real life physics in every type of game. fps games have gravity as do many 3d mmorpgs. if one unit attacks another unit in an rts, its going to realize that the second unit is most likely going to have to take some kind of damage from the collision as do any game with some form of combat included in it.
since im losing my train of thought, thats where im going to end it for now, but nonetheless, it doesnt have to be like real life just to be \'realistic\', as been said before, they should just have some kind of sensical(at least mildly sensical) explanation.
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RolePLAYing GAMES >>>>> PLAY = FUN, GAME = FUN.
That all.