PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: RussianVodka on February 24, 2004, 04:37:08 am
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The way it works now is that some races can only get a skill up to lvl 8. I dont know how high lvl 8 will actualy be, but it seems a bit low.
My proposition is to no make a skill lvl limitation, but to just make a highr lvl harder to reach. Say a Kran can only get lvl 8 in magic. Well why not do this:
Untill lvl 8, a Kran gains lvl with the same speed as a magic race. But after lvl 8 a Kran will need 10 times more exp to grow a lvl then a magic race. That will not make a high skill lvl imposible, but just much harder to reach.
P.S. im just using exp as an example.
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i dont like the thought of only having level cap of 8 on marksman skill :(
i dont see the point in limitless levels becasue there has to be some sort of formula to it so there will end up being no difference between level 100 magic and level 1,000,000 magic (except for maybe bragging rights :D )
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I unnuo about that. some games use formulas like 2d6 damage+1 per damage per skill level that would make a large diffrence between 100 and 1,000,000
i\'m with russian though putting a set limit on levels kinda kills the fun factor. i say make the sky the limit even if it does end up being virtually impossable for a kran to get to level 15 magic
i think keeping the door open even if it\'s just a little is a good thing
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I dont like it without limitations. The limits make you choose about your race more carefully, and about what you want to become. If there are no limits, everyone could be the best in everything cause there are no limirs.
An real RPG is all about limits. You have to choose from the start what you want to become, since not everything is possible to obtain. Else you could get a Wizard, maximum lvl for all spells, and yet he also would be the best fighter, with highest armor and best weapon. That would become to Uber.
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Yet I remember hearing one of the devs saying somwhere that it would be possible to become highly skilled at everything, but it would take about 10 years...
Pretty much you either decide to focus solely on one aspect of your character, or try to go for several different skills. But remember, a jack of all trades is a master of none :)
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ummm...how could everyone be the best at everything? the cap is set at infinity....then I kind of doubt everyone would reach infinity...just a hunch...And I agree with Russian kind of...I think that racial caps should be set, but other than that there should be none...perhaps they could increase it with each update or something...
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f(x)=Ae^(Bx)
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hmmm... if you can become highly skilled @ everything, then you will probably work with something like lvl\'s and experience, and for every lvl you want to increase, you will need more exp, like 1000 for lvl 1, 2000 for lvl 2 etc. and i dont mean, 1000 = lvl 1 2000= lvl2, more like 1000=lvl 1, 3000=lvl 2.
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Xanaroth, what im saying is that a migic races exp per magic lvl will be gained in these amounts:
lvl6=5000; lvl7=7000; lvl8=10000; lvl9=15000
Where as for a Kran it will be like this:
lvl6=5000; lvl7=7000; lvl8=15000; lvl9=25000
This way the Kran and the magic race will be both able to reach lvl 1,000,000 but it will just take the Kran longer. Same goes for the magic race and axe skills... know what i mean
P.S. for those who didnt realize it, the exp numpers are just examples.
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i\'ll get your point, but kran could never reach that anyway, look at the races, kran are limited to lvl 8 of magic. so there is no way that they can reach higher levels.
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Xanaroth, realize that the original topic of this post proposed to remove the skill caps, and instead impose racial guidelines that would instead simply require a higher exp gain for higher levels. We know that the current system plans to have limitations, so it\'s a question of whether or not it would be feasible to remove them and instead just have steeper exp requirements.
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srry, wasn\'t reading the top to well.
*smashes head against screen several times*
* of to see a docter with major head injury*
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If there isn\'t limitations and you can just all out beef up your character then you will be like a god! Sounds good but not so good for newer players the so called GODS would be able to rape the living hell out of anyone they saw fit and this wouldn\'t seem fair to alot of people. It would be harder for newcomers to advance with say a playerkiller with so high a level coming after you all the time when you try and leave a safezone (if there is a safezone). Unless they create a limit on levels you can fight, example: level 1 can fight a level 5 but a level 6 can\'t fight anything less than 2 to 11 kinda thing...
(Some people play their computers 24/7 and could probally beef there character within no time and say they are having a bad day and feel like terrorizing anyone anywhere they can, the game wouldn\'t be that fun after awhile.)
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Originally posted by Xandria
Yet I remember hearing one of the devs saying somwhere that it would be possible to become highly skilled at everything, but it would take about 10 years...
Pretty much you either decide to focus solely on one aspect of your character, or try to go for several different skills. But remember, a jack of all trades is a master of none :)
heard the same thing.
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There was a game called Legends of Kesmai by Kesmai Studio\'s played on AOL and Gamestorm that had a skills system that allowed skills in a direction that was inline with with thier classes.
To advance at a fair rate and would softcap other skills at a low level like skill level 6 or something ... then they would have to train skills that were not inline with thier classes much more to gain levels. Each level was twice as hard as the last level so you could hit lvl 3 in a day to lvl 6 might take a week 9 in maybe 2 weeks and 12 in a month.. to 15 might take 4 months and 17 in maybe 6 and 18 maybe 9 and 19 after maybe a year ... nobody ever hit 20.
I had a wizard that was a 19th lvl with 17 lvl magic .. that was pretty damn good but I also had lvl 14 Martial artists which was HARD AS HELL to get and it took me about a year... it was a great system that not only involved using the skilll VS MOBS but you also had to use currency to train with a trainer to be able to promote the class skill faster.
Now that I think about it I think they regulated it by not allowing non aligned classes to train skills after a certain level.
EDIT: PS yes a jack of all trades and master of none is true... but pretty much nothing survived a DragonKick followed by a lvl 17 IceSpear.
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mayb to make sure high lvl people wont rape weaker people, mayb there should be a lvl restriction or so. That is area A you can only fight people between 2 lvls lower and 2 lvls higher (lvl 1 could ight lvl 1, 2 and 3, and a lvl 55 could fight a 53, 53, 55, 56, 67)
And on other area\'s, that are harder to reach and where stronger monsters are, there also are lower limits, like fight between 15 lvls.
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I dont like numbers to be used a lot in games, that way people know what is the best weapon without any experience using the item, but I hate caps even more.
Didnt I hear somewhere that PS wont have \"levels\" anyway?
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There will obviously be skill levels, but not an overall character level.
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I seem to be missing something, maybe someone here could make things clearer for me.
I thought that human players won\'t be able to \"gang up\" on each other and \"beat the living crap\" out of the newer players. That seems to be the main concern for some here. Won\'t that only be allowed in arenas, or by agreement?
So what\'s the problem?
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PvP hasnt been decided yet, so I suggest we stick to the topic, I agree with Klaksa, different clan races shouldnt have limits on their skills, but different difficulty reaching them.
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What about:
\"*** 2004-02-25 by Keith Fulton
- Added /challenge and /yield commands for starting and stopping PvP duels.
/challenge invites the targeted player to accept your duel. If he accepts,
then you can attack him. Otherwise you cannot attack a human player
anymore. (I will add guild wars and arenas shortly.) /yield command is there
but not implemented yet. That is next.\"
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I agree that dueling should be implimented, but this still has nothing to do with the topic...
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...
\"Otherwise you cannot attack a human player
anymore.\"
Isn\'t this significant?
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It\'s significant......but as icefalcon pointed out off topic.
any way......yes i think it should be done with exp handicapping. But it has to be a large one something like 2 or 2.5 times for a non racial statistic such as a krans magic.
this way no ones really telling you that you can\'t. there just telling you it would be wiser to spend your time doing comething else.
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Was this thread about Pvp ? ?(
anyways, here\'s another update:
*** 2004-02-26 by Keith Fulton
- Rewrote the skills section in psCharacter and implemented both the
impervious flag, which doesn\'t let you attack npcs, and duel_points for
individual pvp scoring. Will test better tomorrow.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
I thought that human players won\'t be able to \"gang up\" on each other and \"beat the living crap\" out of the newer players. That seems to be the main concern for some here. Won\'t that only be allowed in arenas, or by agreement?
The way it seems right now is that there will be PvP (\"will you duel me?\" \"Yeah I will\" \"lets fight\") but no PK (\"Come here newbie i\'m gonna kill you!\" \"Yaaaaargh!\" \"Mwuahahaha\"). So skill limitations because of PKing is not a valid argument.
Anyways, back on topic... Skill limitation is bad, but it\'s okay to make it mighty hard. There should be some sort of \'restriction\' considering the asian-type gamers that live to level up.
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yeah i agree, i have a friend he is like that. He has his pc on 24/7. He just logs in and places his char near a agressife monster that is verry weak, so he keeps getting experience all night long. That way he got like between 2000 and 100.000 exp each night. there is no fun in that.
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on the server i gm\'d on skills capped out at 199.99% (not through choice... the server app bugged on a skill of 200%)
it all seemed fine at first... then the \'Vets\' found that they had mastered all the skills they wanted + had acquired most of the items they wanted..... they got bored... they left.... we had a server full of noobs with very few people to help them out
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Originally posted by Skizzik
So skill limitations because of PKing is not a valid argument.
That was my original point, brought on because someone stated:
Originally posted by DepthBlade
If there isn\'t limitations and you can just all out beef up your character then you will be like a god! Sounds good but not so good for newer players the so called GODS would be able to rape the living hell out of anyone they saw fit and this wouldn\'t seem fair to alot of people.
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I agree with not stopping a toon from reaching a higher level. but make it much harder for the toon to reach the next skill level. I lot of skill systems put the next level at rate above the level befor it. In this case I think 2.5*rate after the now cap level would work.
or to say level8/level7= rate
then level 9 = level 8*(2.5*rate)
level 10 = level 9*(2.5*rate)
level 11 = level 10*(2.5*rate)
so if level 7 was 15,000 exp and level 8 was 20,000 exp
then 18000/15000 =1.2
and level 9 = 20000*1.2*2.5 or 60,000
level 10 = 60000*1.2*2.5 or 180,000
level 11 = 180000*1.2*2.5 or 540,000
something along this line would keep levels over the now cap hard to reach but still make them acheavable.
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messed up my numbers hehe can you spot the mistake in last post
so if level 7 was 15,000 exp and level 8 was 18,000 exp
then 18000/15000 =1.2
and level 9 = 20000*1.2*2.5 or 60,000
level 10 = 60000*1.2*2.5 or 180,000
level 11 = 180000*1.2*2.5 or 540,000
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Well with \"no\" skill caps this could end up like the-game-that-shall-not-be-named ... where a few players play all day to get to a (very) high level and reach \"god\" status and everyone wants them to craft the best weapons available etc.
Best thing would be if skills dont affect the possibilities that much. For instance everyone can wield an axe but if you got a high level in that skill you would just be a lot more efficient in using it. Or everyone can craft a sword but you will end up with a poor quality if your skill level is too low.
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I thought thats how it already was
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Aren\'t skill limitations set so that nobody can be perfect, that each race has a pro and a con for picking them? So that makes you really think deep of why you want this race. This makes sure no one gets everything. It doesn\'t matter that your getting it slower, your still going to get it. But if they put the caps in then you have to think, Why did I pick this guy? What are his strong points? What are his weaknesses? How can I make each work for me? etc
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Originally posted by Armenelos
Aren\'t skill limitations set so that nobody can be perfect, that each race has a pro and a con for picking them? So that makes you really think deep of why you want this race. This makes sure no one gets everything. It doesn\'t matter that your getting it slower, your still going to get it. But if they put the caps in then you have to think, Why did I pick this guy? What are his strong points? What are his weaknesses? How can I make each work for me? etc
Exactly.
I had another idea:
If you want to become let\'s say a magician. You advance some levels in magic, but because you just advance magic, your maxinum level in fighting goes down.
Obvious don\'t you think? If you study all day you have less time to hang around in the gym. But if you hang around in the gym all day, you have less time to study and might never reach your full potential intelligence/knowledge etc.
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why does the word rank have to mean level lol
with the kran they can only learn eighth rank magic. To get to eighth rank magic you may have to get to level 500 magic skill. like a level 8 spell of the dark way would need 500 skill points in the dark magic skill. there could only be 10 spell levels or only 9 which dosn\'t really limit the kran in magic that much but it makes being a pure kran caster kind of silly.
there could be a spell which required rank 1 magic which you start off with. Lets call it er... flame. Now this spell is very weak. There is an upgrade to this spell on magic rank 2 called fire.
ok. now as you increase the amount of skill points in that magic way the effectiveness of the spells becomes greater. They fizzle less also.
So flame will do the same amount of damage as fire. but fire will be able to strike multiple targets.
You could also have say.. an upgrade called inferno on magic rank 3. To get to magic rank 3 lets say you need 50 skill points in this magic way. now inferno could do the same thing as fire but with double damage. Now you could keep going on like this or just start a new line of spells with Role Playin style names e.g. bolleros blast. again these names only add to the Role Playing experience and are not needed.
Now with weapons you could just have weapon groups like a rusty dagger is a rank 1 piercing weapon and a dagger is rank 2, a tarnished is rank 3 etc.
The skill points for a weapon type could make you more accurate each skill point or skill points could work as modifiers for other skills like if you had dual wield skill and you were using two daggers your piercing weapons skill points would modify the final out come of the dual wield, defining the probability of a hit for each dagger.
with crafting i guess like armor making rank1 you can make rank 1 armour and rank 2 you can make rank 2 etc.
same with armor repairing except you are just repairing not making.
also same with building,farming,food making,brewing, herbalism etc.
Im not sure what would happen with artists. maybe on higher ranks their paintings could be imbued or maybe they can only draw certain features on lower level but can draw more on higher ranks.
with musicians their melodies would have different effects i guess
cartographers would maybe only be able to draw in outlines of cities or just like outlines of mountains and rivers. Then at higher ranks they could draw smaller things like individual tress or individual houses and mountains and even underground maps, underwater maps. Higher skill points would make your drawings clearer.
with lockpicking i guess their could be harder locks. each rank you can unlock a different type of lock. maybe you could also add some magic in a the highest ranks to help unlock enchanted locks. also the higher the skill points the less chance of failing.
with stuff like climing you could have it like you can climb ladders on rank 1 trees on rank 2 etc right up to flat marble supports maybe (very impossible). the higher the skill points the less energy it takes and the faster you are.
with body development maybe at higher ranks you can absorb like heat and cold attacks or like first you asorb impact then slash then pierce.
with swimming it would just be skill points.
i think that is all
oh ya and skill points would be infinite but like you would put in algorithms to take effect at certain levels to slow people down or take the effectiveness down as the level got hiher
( took so long to type =() )
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Well your idea on Magic is good I think, but I dont like the weapon part. I think you should be able to use whatever weapon you want, but the skill you have affects the damage done by the weapon.
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Ok i dont think you would have skill doing damage. The strength does the damage. But skill would be used as a modifier for damage because what good is strength if you cant use it properly?
If you didnt like the weapons part then..hmm.. you could have something like Everquest where there was a bonus that you got for being a certain level. There could be a weapon does 20 dmg 19 dly. Anyone could use that. You get the most out of it from having the required skill. but there could also be a stat bonus that required you to be lvl 45. The stat bonus could be a save versus fire or a spell effect etc. But you still need to have weapon dmg and dly. Those are the basis for RPG weapons. You could just have the damage of the weapon as a modifier for the final damage
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I think the best ideas so far would be Thardin\'s and Ikarsik (except the weapons part)...I agree there should be no cap (except maybe for dwarves j/k )but amybe we could just make higher lvl change less so that you would have to be 1,500 magic lvl in order to truly decimate a 1,000 magic lvl dude
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Originally posted by Ikarsik
Ok i dont think you would have skill doing damage. The strength does the damage. But skill would be used as a modifier for damage because what good is strength if you cant use it properly?
Well if you have a high skill level in daggers, then you should be able to do more damage with daggers that with a low skill lv. But I guess damage shouldnt be everything, your skill should improve speed and maybe recovery as well.
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Yes for lighter weps it would depend more on skill prob but as weps get heavier you would need to have more strength. What is wrong with my weapon part lol.
weapon skill would work as a modifier for both damage and speed. Also parrying if you could parry.
also like the stealing thing like having more knowledge of how to steal gives you more knowledge of how to prevent it.
so like you could have knowing better how to wield a dagger lets you know how to better defend against a dagger. This could act as a save versus dagger which could be combined with your defense and armor rating to form up a nice defense formula formalu
defense would probably be calculated with agility and something or maybe it would just be your agility but probably another formula involved to make the game more exciting
so like the base formula would involve like
damage = (weapon skill + speed) times half your strength
speed would kinda be the same but like probably less.
you would either have weapon speed or weapon delay. probably weapon delay
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Hmm.. Infinite skill levels?
That seems like it\'d become sorta pointless aftera while...
I mean.. taking weapon skills for example, I would figure that as your skills go up, you\'d be able to fight harder and harder creatures. With an infinite skill level system.. exactly how strong will enemies become? Will their power be dynamic and determined by the skill level of who\'s attacking them on the fly? Or, are the content creators going to have alot of work cut out for them as they continuously create new creatures to give the extremely highly powerful folks a challenge worth their time? Or will there be the same creature models being given higher and higher statistics (which will become boring; it\'s a common complaint in other such games).
There\'s a climbing skill I saw mentioned.. exactly how *good* of a climber can one become, exactly? How difficult can a climb actually become?
It seems to me that having no definitive limits sorta leaves the things that make the skill levels important way open-ended.
Here\'s something I was thinking about...
How about a branching skill system?
Say you want your character to become a blade fighter of some kind.
Maybe you\'ll start off weaning your skills on a dagger. It\'s small and weak, but hey.. when you first start out - so are you and so are the creatures you\'re likely to be fighting.
After you reach.. say level 10 (arbitrary number for example\'s sake) skill with a dagger - you now have the ability to branch off one of two ways.. Either you can move on to training with a \"Great Dagger\" or something like that - sort of defining dagger fighting as your chosen specialty (swift, fast and very deadly). Or... you can go off and move on to a short-sword.
Which ever path you choose (and you can always switch from one to the other because you\'ve essentially \"unlocked\" both by reaching level 10 with a dagger), you have to go another 20 levels in that skill..
So.. you get to level 20 \"Great Dagger\" - well, maybe now you earn a \"title\" as, say \"Dagger Specialist\" and learn \"Dual-Wield\" (twice as deadly!) as your next skill to build.
Or, you chose the short-sword at level 10.. After 20 levels of training the short sword, you become, say, a \"long-blade specialist\" and now can move on to a long-sword... and then on to a great-sword after training longsword for 40 levels, etc.
Perhaps there\'s some kind of trial at each \"title level\" point that is required to pass before you can graduate to the next stage...
After maybe 100 total skill levels, you\'ve attained a \"Master\" title for whatever your chosen weapon is. Maybe something even more grandiose and fantasy-sounding \"Legendary Swordsman\" or \"Legendary Blademaster\". At this point, you can either choose to train another skill - or maybe there\'s some Master Quest you would go on to retrieve - or earn - a sword worthy of your skills and title.
Also, say each time you reach a \"title level\", your damage output will increase to some degree over what it was when you graduated. So.. if you\'re level 10 as a dagger fighter and you\'re putting out 20HP per strike on average.. well, as a new Great Dagger trainee, perhaps you\'ll put out an average of 25HP per strike, etc.
I believe something like this would provide absolute, measurable and meaningful goals for a player to strive for, rather than some vague notion of \"get as high as possible\" that carries no real definable or meaningful benefit other than getting as high as possible.
Anyway.. that\'s what I\'d been considering, explained off the top of my head.. :-)
Take care,
Mike
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nice idea mike. please dont be offended by any criticism you recieve from me because i am a kind of single minded person =P
i dont think branching was in the mind of the ps devs making this game
there is like a dagger skill or something which you can train in and a sword skill or whatever in which you train too
also to gain a skill point it requires a certain amount of experience.
so like we have experience which gives skill points and skill points which give rank lol how good is that?
so lets say to gain a skill point the amount of experience required is equal to the number of skill points you already have squared. ok so lol it gets harder to get a skill point each level.
so like that might take a bit long and you would use a much better formula of course to do this but can you see what i mean? and like you could have monsters giving more experience the higher level they are. or... you could have it like the experience is skill point squared then divided by 2 or something and monsters could then have less experience attached to them so the game uses less memory and takes up less space.
so thats how you could like stop people from getting to high
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NO LIMITATIONS!!
This is an RP game, RP Games must work like this:
(Almost) Every time you play you\'ll be better, you get more items/money and you will raise levels/skills
If there\'s a skill or level limit this would realy suck, after some time you can\'t be better :\'(
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Originally posted by Toadhead
NO LIMITATIONS!!
This is an RP game, RP Games must work like this:
(Almost) Every time you play you\'ll be better, you get more items/money and you will raise levels/skills
If there\'s a skill or level limit this would realy suck, after some time you can\'t be better :\'(
Well.. I don\'t know if RP games *must* work like that.. It\'s certainly an option.
My only concern is, when you leave something so open-ended, after a while, you\'re bound to have people with a skill level of some obscenely high number getting bored because there\'s only so many new and unique encounters the devs can provide. Basically, if you\'re going to have an unlimited skill level system, to keep it challenging at all levels, you\'d have to also have challenges of unlimited difficulty to keep those players entertained... I\'m not sure the devs want to spend that much time creating brand-new content indefinitely.
I\'m sure there\'s some middle-ground somewhere, but just making it blue-sky like that is likely going to introduce its own set of problems down the road.
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Hey... Thanks ;-)
No offense taken.. after all everyone\'s just posting their own opinions here. No one\'s any more wrong or right than anyone else.
I\'m not sure what the devs have in mind for the skill system (from what I\'ve read, there\'s something about certain skills going to level 8 or something like that)... What they do will be, I\'m sure, well considered and balanced out.
I\'m just pointing out that I think an open-ended, non-specific \"blue-sky\" skill level setup takes away any real sense of accomplishment besides getting as high as possible - which will never be reached because, theoretically, there is no measure of what \"high enough\" is.. except for perhaps when the player burns out or decides to do something else.
Working away at something like leveling is only meaningful when it\'s given some tangible meaning or measure. Providing milestones, title levels, etc. gives a player a set of \"intermediate goals\" to work toward. It\'s not only \"becoming as powerful as possible\" that matters. Getting there is just as important.
Again, I have complete confidence in the Dev team\'s ability to make the right decisions and/or tweak or change what they find not to work.. I was just offering a different point-of-view on the concept of skill leveling.
Anyway... there ya go :-).
Originally posted by Ikarsik
nice idea mike. please dont be offended by any criticism you recieve from me because i am a kind of single minded person =P
i dont think branching was in the mind of the ps devs making this game
there is like a dagger skill or something which you can train in and a sword skill or whatever in which you train too
also to gain a skill point it requires a certain amount of experience.
so like we have experience which gives skill points and skill points which give rank lol how good is that?
so lets say to gain a skill point the amount of experience required is equal to the number of skill points you already have squared. ok so lol it gets harder to get a skill point each level.
so like that might take a bit long and you would use a much better formula of course to do this but can you see what i mean? and like you could have monsters giving more experience the higher level they are. or... you could have it like the experience is skill point squared then divided by 2 or something and monsters could then have less experience attached to them so the game uses less memory and takes up less space.
so thats how you could like stop people from getting to high
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Originally posted by WSIMike
Originally posted by Toadhead
NO LIMITATIONS!!
This is an RP game, RP Games must work like this:
(Almost) Every time you play you\'ll be better, you get more items/money and you will raise levels/skills
If there\'s a skill or level limit this would realy suck, after some time you can\'t be better :\'(
Well.. I don\'t know if RP games *must* work like that.. It\'s certainly an option.
My only concern is, when you leave something so open-ended, after a while, you\'re bound to have people with a skill level of some obscenely high number getting bored because there\'s only so many new and unique encounters the devs can provide. Basically, if you\'re going to have an unlimited skill level system, to keep it challenging at all levels, you\'d have to also have challenges of unlimited difficulty to keep those players entertained... I\'m not sure the devs want to spend that much time creating brand-new content indefinitely.
I\'m sure there\'s some middle-ground somewhere, but just making it blue-sky like that is likely going to introduce its own set of problems down the road.
don\'t realy agree with you, with a unlimited skils and levels system you don\'t need an umlimited difficulty system..becuase it will almost impossible to raise levels after some while, if you work with the \"you need more exp to raise a level when you have a higher level\" system!
And an unlimited level system would be possible..ofcourse fight against other players, or create creatures that would get the same thats as you as as soon as you fight with them :P
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Oh, I agree.. if it were set up where the creatures\' difficulty were dynamically set within a certain range based on your level, it would certainly extend the gameplay.. but after a while you really are just fighting the same creatures over and over again.. And if that comment were to be raised, \"well, find something to do other than leveling\" isn\'t a viable response. The player is playing the game the way they choose to.
As for attaining higher levels to be somewhat impossible after a while - Heh.. I wouldn\'t put it past folks to try anyway. And, if the option is available, players with skill levels many times that of the average player have to be provided every bit the gaming experience as those many times lower.
I do see the point others are making in the infinite level concept and am not dismissing it. And, of course it\'s do-able. I\'m just thinking of the gameplay aspect of it. \"Leveling Up\" in an RPG is not a goal - it\'s a given. Unless you\'re standing in one spot doing nothing, you\'re likely to wind up doing *something* that is in some way going to earn you skill levels in something. Without set goals, or stepping-stones, milestones, etc. to achieve along the way, people tend to meander and lose focus and become bored. Leveling with no goal other than to keep getting higher in levels becomes a grind after a while. Some have a much higher threshold than others, but eventually, it loses its appeal. This is often as true in life as it is in games (does this apply to *everyone*? Of course, not.. Does it apply to many if not most? Most definitely). Doing something over and over with no definable goal to doing so can become nothing more than going through the motions.
Let\'s say this, then... as sort of a combo of the two...
How about a system that works initially like the one I outlined in my post - it doesn\'t even have to have the branching skills aspect. Once you\'ve reached that \"master level\", you can continue to build your skill levels further to infinity.. but your title or \"rank\" just doesn\'t change? This way, those who are building their characters based on a set outline of milestones are satisfying their goal for their characters, while those indifferent one way or the other can just continue on past that for as long as they wish.
It\'s kinda like belts in martial arts. There are defined \"ranks\" you work through in reaching Black Belt. But, once you\'re a black-belt.. sure, you go up by degrees.. but you\'re still a black-belt.
It\'s clear by the difference of opinion in these posts that both types of player are represented.. So, the trick is to find that \"sweet spot\" where both types of player are being provided what they look for (if not in entirety, at least in good part), and neither is being shut out completely.
Of course in the end this is purely up to the discretion of the developers.
Anyways.. good discussion!
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The solution is easy to say but dificult to do. This solution is Dinamyc Combat Sistem, You know, if a batle is siimpla as click into the enemy and click in \"atack\" for sure the combat are doom to be so boring in sometime. If only you can \"control\" the attacks..... well, for sure this is a MMORPG and no a action game, but put some dimanist in the combat not have to is so hard ?Or yes? I\'m not a programer but I think is possible.
This \"Dinamyc COmbat Sistem\" (DCS) can generate some lag (?Or not? I really not know...) for the extra Kb of info what your PC have to send to the server. But if the DCS is avariable you know.... ?Somebody of you haven\'t that great feeling from massacre enemys in the Battles like the Dynasty Warriors? I Know PaneShift isn\'t Diansty Warrior but I think I was explain what I want to say (?Or not? My english isn\'t very good...)
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I don\'t mean that ALL creatures need to copy your stats, but if some creatures (that you can only fight in an colosuem or somtihng) will copy your stats so they have the same strgnth as you that would be cool :P
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You want to say what a lvl 1 PJ have the same possibilitis of survive the coliseum\'s combat than a lvl 100 PJ?
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well lets say with unlimited skills you have a monster on lvl 1 giving 100 exp and a monster on lvl 2 giving 200 exp and it could go on like this.
now lets say you are using a one handed mace. So you are raising your one-handed blunt weapons skill.
lets say to complete skill level 1 in this skill and move on to skill level 2 you need 100 exp. So one kill of the lvl 1 monster.
now you are on level 2 and to get to skill level 3 you need to get 400 exp. so 4 kills of level one monster and 2 of level 2 monster.
now lets say a level 12 monster gives 1200 exp.
to raise your skill past 12 and on to 13 you need 14400 exp. This is a few more kills lol
Can you see where i am going?
Doing this would probably keep everyone close in levels lol because people would raise through the lower levels then get stuck
so we would need to stretch out and weaken the effect of this.
but anyway it would take hundreds of thousands of kills to raise higher at a certain stage. so lets see...
a lvl 200 monster has 20000 exp
you need 4000000 exp to get to next level (21)
so like 200 kills.
so maybe lol it needs to be stretched and strengthened towards the end to make leveling harder but anyway but anyway...
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ummm, I think I cacht it now, yes, i will be cool, but only for colyseum tipe stages, I don\'t wana see a rat kill me when I have level 50....
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I just read somewhere in the forums here that the rank you have (in magic, could be any other skill) is different from the skill level you have.
So if you have a maximum *rank*, you could still have an unlimited skillsystem.
So the system WSIMike suggested (titles, but no max skills) might already be implemented in cb, who knows.
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if only my build wouldnt keep stuffing up... boohoo. But anyway maybe go onto irc and ask lol but ya like rank would determine like what you could do and skill level would determine how well you could do it and then exp would determine like what skill level you had
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Well, leveling and XP gain has been done in so many other games to good effect that I think it\'d be difficult to *not* come up with one that works.
Remember, it\'s hard - almost nigh short of impossible - to give any one scenario for how many XP an encounter would give and thus how long it would take for someone to level up...
Take into consideration the following (common) scenarios:
1. Player level vs. MOB level:
In general, there\'s a formula that determines how much XP is gained per kill based on the MOB level compared to the player level.
Player is 0-3 levels < MOB = Best XP gain per kill
Player is 1-3 levels > MOB = XP gain per kill decreases
Player is 4+ levels > MOB = XP gain decreases, makes it more and more a waste of the player\'s time to continue killing this MOB.
2. Player Party/Team level vs. MOB Level
In party situations, they could conceivably go after far more powerful creatures which sorta raises the bar a bit. So the same system could conceivably work, but on a more \"escalated\" setup.. Parties of 3 lvl 10 players could conceivably go after a MOB that\'s level 15 - maybe more. So those situations carry their own \"ideal\" level range, etc, and in fact, a level 15 MOB against a party of level 10s might be considered \"evenly matched\", relatively speaking.. That\'s a bit more complicated.
The point is, XP gain is not an absolute as there\'s always some kind of formula working behind the scenes, taking a \"base\" amount of XP and modifying it based on the player\'s or the party\'s level versus the MOB\'s level.
It seems that in that kind of setup, the higher level the MOB, the higher the \"base\" XP value is for it - so... while a lower level MOB, say around level 10 skill level, might have a base value of, oh.. 100XP (for example\'s sake), well that\'s going to either increase or decrease for the player killing it based on that player\'s level relative to the MOB\'s. Likewise, a higher level MOB that\'s maybe level 100 could have a base XP value of 1000, which will, again, decrease or increase somewhat relative to the level of the player fighting it.
That\'s something, I think, that we may well be seeing alot of tweaking going on with over time because until a system is put into practice, it\'s rather difficult for the devs to see whether it\'s making the game too easy or too hard or is ideally balanced, etc...
Remember, too, that there are different types of players.. There are those who are gonna consistently go after those mobs that are 3 or 4 levels higher than them because they want that \"near death\" thrill of fighting.. They\'ll gain alot of XP per kill at the cost of a lot of down-time for healing, etc. While others will take the safer route and maybe take on mobs that are an even match or maybe a little weaker - they\'ll have less down-time at the cost of less XP gain. Then there are those who will mix it up based on their mood at that given time (that\'s how I tend to be :-); sometimes feeling super aggressive.. sometimes not feeling quite so brazen...
So, how fast a player advances through the levels/ranks is largely dependent on their playstyle. The ones who wish to reach the highest levels are likely to be the ones who are most aggressive while the ones who aren\'t so focused on that, or maybe more \"protective\" of their character, are likely to be more liesurely and take longer to get there.
I\'m real curious to see how that works out.
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I\'ve always dreamt of playing a game where it is possible for someone to eventually become a semi-godlike player. I mean, let\'s just take a dragon as an example. A party of regulars (let\'s say 50x lvl 100 chars) could take down a dragon. How cool wouldn\'t it be if you, all alone, step up to a dragon, spit in it\'s face and slay it all by yourself? That has got to be the most cool experience one can ever get, knowing you\'ve killed a super duper l33t mob all alone. Talk about rights to brag, hmm? :D
Now, if a couple of these super l33t players ended up in a party, imagine what kind of stuff they could take down. Now, we\'ve always known mages as oh-so-big-and-powerful, however mages aren\'t powerful in most MMORPGs. They\'re stupid and slow, and power quickly fades away when silly warriors can kill demons with a silly sword. But let\'s just imagine that 50 regular mages (let\'s say lvl 500, just for the kick) get together and set out to kill the legendary Obalooba monster. Noone has ever killed it before.... They die. Everyone think \"Damn, that\'s got to be one nasty thing, that Obalooba.\" .. Now, the five best mages in the world decide to kill it, and they do it, and everyone says \"Wow, they\'re the best in the world!\"
... What exactly is the point of all this? Err, maybe it\'s just me, but having people that are insanely powerful creates legends, and idols. I mean, who doesn\'t want to be like that guy who can take down a dragon alone? Who doesn\'t want to be as powerful a mage as one of those 5 that took down the Obalooba?
Removing skill and experience limits really creates RP in so many ways, it\'s just about thinking of these ways, and using them to your own advantage. \"Yeah, but what about those that get bored with lvling?\" ... Your problem? You\'ll just never become the greatest then. :)
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im WAY too lazy to read this whole post, its full of essay long posts and intricate details that make them very hard to read. therefore ill wing it and express my oppinion on the whole skill thing. There are physics that limit how much a human or any other living thing could pick up. There are strict limits to what the living body (or anything under 400 pounds) could do. I think there should be a max, and in the fun of being a roleplaying game it should be very high. But endukais should have a higher max in agility than a ylian and a kran should hve a higher strength max than a lemur due to the shapes, and physical characteristics of thier bodies. But there should be something cool that gives a huge bonus and allows you to be god like.
Players that complete high level quests, or quests that change the whole world and setting of planeshift should have the ability to be confronted by the gods and given a bonus, depending on how they play, what items they use and what quests they have accomplished. Now this should be ULTRA rare. The whole even would be random except for the fact the player has completed quests and become somewhat famous.
A level 36 user who has done important quests may be confronted by the gods before a level 99 uber strong user is confronted, its all in being in the right place at the right time after completing key quests.
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mm lol whemy lazy. but ya all races should be able to have the same agility but like agility does more fore some races than others.
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??? what??? did you miss that or what? i said some races, due to different body structure should have a higher max than another in some key areas. EG endukais have higher max for agility than ylians...
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Yah but if you have a skill limit then it adds a lot of thinking to what your going to do. You have to think more strategy, and less of walk in and bash this legendary beast.
Unless these dragons and Obalooba monster are extrememly powerful, then I\'d be ok with that, like I\'m talking powerful as in the 5 best mages in the world have a hell of a time to beat this Obalooba. If they\'re going to do unlimited skills then they definatly have to have a worthwhile system that makes it a challenge.
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due to different body structure should have a higher max than another in some key areas. EG endukais have higher max for agility than ylians...
Or maybe they just have an easier time when training that stat. :)
Armenelos: Dragons and Obalooba not powerful...? Lemme ask you a question, have you ever read a fantasy novel? :) You always hear about the great dragonslayers. Why? Because dragons are probably some of the most powerful beings... Only the greatest mages have dragons as pets. Why? Because dragons, once again, are one of the most powerful beings ever made... But then again, some games have what I like to call fake-dragons. I mean please. Not even 50 regular warriors would have a chance against a dragon. One sneeze and they\'re history. :P
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Originally posted by Gronomist
due to different body structure should have a higher max than another in some key areas. EG endukais have higher max for agility than ylians...
Or maybe they just have an easier time when training that stat. :)
thats what im trying to avoid right there. the bodies of the creatures cant work like that, it defies physics. a kran made of rock is always going to be stronger and more resistant to attacks than an endukai. the key point is if you want a warrior, make a kran, if you want a thief or a rougue, be an endukai. you cant have an endukai that can thwart off attacks that the strongest kran cant (unless its like a water attack or something) physics forbid it.
I may be sounding like a realism nazi, but you cant just throw out physics when making a game. there are certain laws you have to obey.
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Well, always are creatures like \"Baby Dragons\" and thing like that, but a true Dragon is a true nigthmare
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like everyone is gonna have the same type of skills. Some people will be able to do better in these skills
but then there is stats and we need to start a new thread for this lol
but anyway like with stats you could have it like for every one 1 strength you get on a kran you can hold like 2 units of weight more.
But for the cat person thingy race its only one units of weight for each strength or something. or for like the weaker races endurance could give less hitpoints than if it were endurance for a diaboli.
now lets look back on whemy\'s idea. different races have different max stat levels like what whemy said about enkidukai or whatever.
So like lets see stats would prob be capped too
a reasonable cap to stop people from becoming like gods lol.
maybe the skill should be capped too and both skills and stats would be capped and slowed as you got higher.
BUT although it was stated PS wasnt going to be about just gaining one level after another there will still be total levels. The max amounts of skill points you could get in a skill would be equal to your level times 5
so like at level 5 you can get to level 25 in skill
now lets say level is deppendant on skill points so you need to gain a certain amount of skill points to gain a level. So this could like discourage just going through one skill and would encourage you to work with a wider range of skills
so lets say to get past level 1 you need 1 skill point. so one skill point gone in one skill. now for level 2 you need 4 skill points. So now you will have used a total of 5 spread out over some skills. now for 3 its 9 skill points required for a level. so now like 14 skill points spread out over some levels.
Now we get to the good part. From levels 1 to 4 you could of just been using one skill. but now for 4 it needs 16 skill points and you can only have a maximum amount of skill points in one skill of 20. But you have used 30. so you WOULD of had to advance 10 more skill points in other skills to get the level
this thread is trailing on lol...
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What about of his;
The stas are determine for the race, and the ability grow up when you use them, for example, if you use a fire magic spell, the magic and the Fire School abilitis grow ups.
If you use a short sword then your sword and your short sword ablity grow up. I think this is the best way for a MMORPG. This way there aren\'t Paladin or Wizard.
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Anyone who remembers Dungeon Siege? :D
That\'s a cool skill system, unlimited advancement, but it gets very tough to advance past a certain point.
And there is always a challenge for anyone. Chicken Run level anyone... ;)
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I\'ve kinda come to this thread late, but I must say I like WSIMike\'s idea of specialisation - I mean, no matter hard someone trains, they won\'t be able to lift a house, since more training usually results in diminishing returns. Likewise, most people who have mastered a skill have mastered a very specific subset of that skill. I think that by having a branching skill system, there is a lot of potential for the developers to provide content which keeps people interested in playing.
As for racial stats caps, I think they make sense for the most part, although I don\'t think you should necessarily choose your race to maximise your desired class - that leads to a lack of diversity and the whole \"powerleveling\" grind. I believe, however, that no character should ever quite reach the racial statistics cap, since that represents the maximum possible ability level of that race.
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We need to always have challenges to keep the game fun, being a god wouldnt be fun. But skill limitations would decrease the fun in my opinion. Once you hit the limit of a certain skill, it wouldnt be fun anymore because you couldn\'t advance in that skill.
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Originally posted by Gronomist
Armenelos: Dragons and Obalooba not powerful...? Lemme ask you a question, have you ever read a fantasy novel? :) You always hear about the great dragonslayers. Why? Because dragons are probably some of the most powerful beings... Only the greatest mages have dragons as pets. Why? Because dragons, once again, are one of the most powerful beings ever made... But then again, some games have what I like to call fake-dragons. I mean please. Not even 50 regular warriors would have a chance against a dragon. One sneeze and they\'re history. :P
And I Agree with you, I was saying that they shouldn\'t make it easy to kill. Sorry but I\'ve played A LOT of games where the big bad guy who is supposed to be so hard to kill, eventually becomes a joke. I\'d rather that not happen with this game. It defeats the purpose of killing that big strong monster that no one is suppose to beat. Maybe they should make a monster that IS almost Impossible to beat, make it so amazingly hard that you do need the 5 best mages in the world PLUS the 5 best warriors, rogues, archers, and everything else. I don\'t want to fight a monster that is legendary and beat it with 2 people.
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It would be really cool if it took more than that armenelos... if over 100 users had to log on to kill a god or something ( a one time only spawn of course, or at least every 2 months) It would be cool to see the planeshift community take out a HUGE monster...
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Yes it would, I saw a movie for the game lineage II and it shows a lot of people attacking a giant dragon and there getting there butts kicked. It was nice to see something like that, now if they actually put it into the game it would be even better.
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How would you split the loot? 8o That would be awesome though...