PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => PvP,PK and Thieving => Topic started by: paxx on March 02, 2004, 08:27:19 am
-
I am not sure how to go forward without insulting many people here, but I fear that most of you simply don?t get what is at issue, then again you may simply want this as a forum to say, ?this is what I want in the game?.
In truth, I had hoped that better heads would prevail, but they appear to have run for the hills.
In this game there will be no ?PKing? Vs. unwilling unacknowledged opponents, when I say unacknowledged, I mean that they know they are under possible danger of attack and have options to avoid it and still play the game normally.
What is much more at stake is the level of PvP. To truly understand the stance of most of the powers that be (devs) is to view a game where if I don?t want to fight you and we are at war?I really don?t have to. I will not even begin to explain the lack of options for thieving from PCs other then to say?there won?t be any unless things change.
The current goal of this game is to provide a world to explore and adventure in, where the good guys, (the players) have a clear understanding of the bad guys (the MOBs wanting to kill you) as far as plot complexity?there will be those few NPCs that change sides.
I am oversimplifying greatly and to quote me on this would be folly, as I am simply venting a level of frustration at the disconnect that this portion (and many others) of the forum seems to have.
I am vehemently the strongest supporter of thieving content in this game, and I mean much more then simply picking pockets or muggings, of the devs. And yet what you all seem to want is not really a role playing game, but a game of one-upmanship, conquest at no risk, lowbrow jollies on someone?s misery. Simply said this game will not have that, nore will it have open field PKing with people playing cops and robbers (or some variation of that). Quite simply, think of all of your character as being heroic and united in a plight against external forces. Where differences are contested in a formal (sometimes bloody, but always formal) confrontation.
That being said, do ?I? want this?not really. But that is the current focus. Those of you who want PK/full looting/thiving/? will never get your wish from this game. This sub forum was made for you to vent a bit, as well as hopefully add some good ideas on how to make a fair and nice PvP/thief friendly environment, and with some very slight exceptions I have not gotten any of that in the last 4 months or more from this thread.
Will I do anything about it, not really. But I will say that those of you who think the will of this subforum will make the game have more PKing, NO!!! your time and effort is completely wasted, and better spent else where. I would suggest another game, or outside enjoying the coming spring. In fact I fear that many of the posts here only invite more inflexible regulation on any PvP in the game at all, at least at this stage. And thus making it worse for all who want more PvP content.
Anyway those are my current musings, do with them as you wish, I only suggest you start coming up with something better then bounty hunters, while I see merit in the idea, it does not even begin to cut it.
We are talking about something where eather everyone can enjoy, that is especially true for non-PKers, or it will not be in the game.
The focus of this game currently is ?Core-Role Players? for those who don?t know what that is, it is the people who will be interested in the latest fashions of PS, who is who, what the news of the day is in the world as much as killing the next mob and gaining EXP.
While one can argue?I am role-playing and sadistic thug?the only sadistic thugs in the game will be NPCs if things go as they are currently planed.
Again not my idea of ?fun? but much more acceptable then open range PK, And all in all you have shadowbane.
For those of you who want a free alternative?not a great game to focus on, our focus currently is based on making the game that is as close to on-par with a purchased game as possible and your Pentium 3 and 3 year old video card will not cut it, even after we optimize things.
Anyways have a good time. And again, none of this is written in stone and all may change, but it will not be on the argument of ?beause Pking/thieving is better and more real? or the 1000 slight variations of that. You are not our current target audience and probably never will be.
-
Ok then...In that case, are there ANY plans of implementing battles between players and/or guilds? given the chance that there are such plans, in what kind of way would it work? (as you know so far)
-
Yes, in the next release you will be able to accept or decline challenges.
And an extension of that are guild challenges.
As to how it is done, is the issue, and really the devil is in the details, and I am not giving details because those are not agreed on or sanctioned in any way.
-
Paxx what you said is like, music to my ears. Ahh I can hear the words in my head like beautiful music,
\"But I will say that those of you who think the will of this subforum will make the game have more PKing, NO!!! your time and effort is completely wasted, and better spent else where. I would suggest another game, or outside enjoying the coming spring.\"
I shall shed the tears of joy from my eyes.
-
first words of meaning in such a long time for this part of the forums. perhaps it is like you said.... nah, i wont quote it. either way, it seems that this subforum seems to have attracted primarily people that enjoy preying on the weaker players, even if some of them actually are genuine about equal opportunity pvp-ing.
-
Hey you know I resent that, I come to this forum to look at stuff for thieving and possibly a little PvP. Just cause you don\'t like to kill other people and I do, doesn\'t mean I\'m suddenly preying on the weak. I actually prefer trying to take on someone higher, nothing\'s funner then beating someone who is supposed to be the best or at least superior to you.
You see it as trying to kill someone, I see it as a new challenge. What\'s more of a challenge then something with its own mind to do different strategies... A monster can only do so much and then when you\'ve found the perfect way to beat it, it offers nothing but another monster bashing, but if you fight people or steal from people then you have the extra spice of something new. Which is a human mind. Who nows how they\'ll react, what they\'ll do next. It\'s never planned, so it adds a little flavour to some boring games.
Whether were here because we all are preying on the weak or whatever other reason, we all recognize that extra zing this gives us. Maybe you need to realize it\'s not a game and have fun with fighting someone else. I seriously believe everyone should make a character and go PvPing or thieving once in a while. There is a thrill in chasing down the \"prey\" or seeing if you can pull this or that off.
And Paxx, not all of us want this world were everything goes, I\'m not for a PvP all the time world, even though it may sound like it, I like the ideas of duels, but a wilderness in the middle of never never land would be kind of nice too for those of us who get bored of the same monster all the time. The devs want us to interact and make friends well as much fun as rping and exploring and meeting friends is, fighting new people helps out this cause a lot. Even if it does end in a fued, it\'s still part of rping. Not everyone is gonna hug and kiss and dance around and love each other in any world.
You all claim to want to appeal to the masses, well hey aren\'t we a mass? But what does it matter, I can plead for better thieving (which I really want) but that depends on the PvP system, and if we\'re going to be screwed in that then we\'re going to be screwed for thieves. So whatever, I\'m still going to stay for your game, maybe I\'ll like it, maybe I won\'t, I\'ll have to wait and see.
All those people who are against PvP and Thieving need to lighten up and remember its a game not your life. Whatever you did, you can more then likely get it back, so quit complaining and maybe try to PvP or go be a thief sometime. It\'s a lot harder then fighting the amazingly good ultra boss that you\'ve taken on countless times and you know that if you go use this spell to shoot him and then attack him with your staff that he falls down in a few whacks and then you start your cycle all over again.
Well that\'s my 2 cents. Probably not worth anything but to bad.
-
Armenelos; to a large degree I agree with your wants, hell I want them too in many ways. But it is not my call per say.
I would have liked many things to be different, however the core of this game is Role Playing, and the mode to enforce that seems to be, allowing the player to choose their danger level.
If truth be told, and I had my way. About 99% of the content would be PvP to some degree with only certain sites being totally safe, but I am not a fan of open ended PKing, though I would like it if you joined a Thug or assassin faction?well their you go, but only if there is accountability, and letts face it accountability is not fun, and so it is more in line with happy happy, free, free land.
One of my biggest issues with EQ early on was?a Paladin and a Necromancer could join up, someone could have killed thousands of Halflings and the Halfling thief would join up with them. Though my favorite time on the game was the Race War Server, but even then it was not fair in any way, it lacked something and they made it worse as they made it a friendlier place to be instead of adding content in some way so it worked better.
But that was many moons ago and much has changed, there are PvP and PK games out there, there are many different takes on very similar things.
And the main people here want to make an environment that leads to Role-playing.
I do not think and personally would never say that we are making a game for the masses, we are making a game that to date has not proven profitable but we feel has some importance to many people. In fact I would say that we are targeting maybe 2% of the ?RPG? players out there.
On the flip side I would love to make things differently, where death means something, and capture often worse, at the same time they are not deal breakers and you can have fun, not loose a ton of exp or the normal stuff that RPGs have had. In essence I want to push the limits and concepts of what a fun RPG can be, and at the same time recognize our limitations in developing that.
But it is not for me to say, and most (perhaps all who care about these aspects) of the other devs disagree with most of my wants.
Not saying that they are not feasible, just they would not want to do it that way. Thus is the way with these projects.
But we are not creating a Free MMORPG for the masses, we want our game to be an alternative on its merits, not because of price.
-
Ok well if you all feel your dealing with a small percentage of RPers then why not put SOME of the ideas into the next pre release version, (the one after this upcoming one) to see if it could work out. Aren\'t all these pre alphas here to try and see what works, what doesn\'t, whats bugged, so on? Then you can eventually sculpt what worked, what you all liked, what you didn\'t like, into what you want. Hell if it doesnt work then you can scrap it completely, I\'d even go for that. If we were the ones to go over board and @#$% it up then we obviously don\'t deserve to have it.
I mean since we are so small then we might handle it a little better then the huge percentage of other RPers. I know I\'m just dragging this on, but I just want thieves soo bad :( lol.
Thanks paxx for answering these things to, I know it must get really annoying to say the same thing over again, and I know your saying some things over again to me. So I much appreciate you actually sticking to this forum, even though we never give much reason on why we should have what we want. *sigh* It\'s so hard to change someone\'s mind once they believe there way would be better.
-
I think you mistook my meaning of 2% of the RPG players out there, that number is still huge.
Broken down, you have all RPGers, about 10% don?t play on a computer.
About 50% of the computer players do not play MORPGs.
About 10% don?t like fantasy
So all in all that leaves us with 30% of all RPGers as a start.
Then we have the classic Role player, power gamer and PKers, we are focused on the Role players and to a small degree the Powergamers, most games out there are the opposite where most is on Powergaming, this includes D&D and most paper and pencil games.
Also many games have a kill all the monsters around view, I don?t think we will and that lowers the % even more, cause many will need to know who to kill when and how.
So what is Role-Playing in the sense given, cause we all have different opinions. Well, my definition is not the one I will use, cause it is not what is being used. My understanding of Role-playing in the (Planeshift) way of thinking is, that you are more focused on your character from a personal standpoint then a stats stand point, that if I have armor that that is 10% better at defending , or looks 10% better, the RPer will take that one that looks better.
Also the RPer will accept a role and not say I want to be X, and they will enjoy taking that role.
This may seem odd, but if you play paper and pencil RPGs, you know that 90% of the time you play the good guys. And in this game it won?t be very different. In reality the hope of the game ATM is to provide the closest resemblance to paper and pencil gaming (or live RPGs) possible with out all the drawbacks.
My opinion on this is mixed, but that is not the current issue. The issue here is focus, or lack there of.
If you have a eat or be eaten environment, it becomes powergamer centric, better armor better weapons, better spells, kills you and I get your stuff. This we will not have at all.
In a setting where everything is cooperative ?us against the world? you once again become powergamer centric so I can take on more then you can.
The balance for role-playing and fun is centered on total lack of grief, and where quests and game issues (politics and puzzles and such ) are at the center of gaining experience And thus more effective.
Now, I am not particularly of this view, nor is anyone of the devs, but it is a combination of visions.
There is talk that when we are in ?alpha? we will have many rule sets and such and as we near ?beta? we will consolidate and make it what is deemed most desirable to our hopes. But from a political standpoint, wanting Grief play and no real effect on the character (NPC?s not selling to you is not enough, and not being able to go into cities is not enough, and getting killed a couple of times is not enough, because you choose that path, the one you killed did not, unless he/she lost after starting a fight) is has to give hardship in some way.
Again for those of you wanting to PvP there are games out there that provide it, Shadowbane and DOAC to name two, and I am pretty sure there are 2 or 3 more with a good number of players. Games with great thief content?very few, thief 2 was probably the best but still only single player.
The trick is goal and focus of the game, what does one game give that others do not?and price is not a reason, go get a job.
This game will not be all things for all people (no game can be). But this game will touch on one or two ignored areas of gaming.
As for the point of this thread?if you really want good PvP content, or even PK content, figure something out where it does not include grief.
Actually what is needed is something different, but it is up to you all to find it really.
Anyone who is opposed to PKing or PvP or Player thieving, will not be persuaded by what is on this sub-forum, it is hopeful that it is not the opposite.
So, figure out a system that is so enticing that it will convert a non-PKer to want to have this game be PK.
As for making 5 or 6 different types of game play for the game, again, only at one or two realeases will that be plausible, it is not simply a matter of turning this on and that off, a lot of balancing and adding code to make it all happen will be necessary and then to support that many versions is a pain. Or literally all games would have it. But they do not because of the amount of work involved in maintaining it is not cost effective, and this entire project is not cost effective, so that would be worse.
-
So in other words, we have to make something so amazingly sweet that people will want to play it and their can\'t be any grief or players complaining. It has to be balanced and all that other jazz.
Well.... I\'m going to give up then, cause there is probably no way to make that, and even if I did find the perfect thing to me, there is bound to be someone out there that would disagree, which then makes me scrape the whole thing...
It would be cool if we could get some big non pkers like Kuiper and get some people that are all for pking in the same place, just throwing out ideas and then slowly make it something we\'d all want. But that would probably not happen. Oh well, I\'ll just have to live with what you guys have planned.
And yah, I was definatly ignorant on the amount of players who play these things and all the work that goes into these things too, I just never thought about it before I typed it, not the smartest of things to do....
Could you ban the accounts of griefers? Or anything like that? Or is there another way around that too? I know banning ips wouldn\'t work cause people can change those, well I think they can anyways.
-
I know that PS is not going to be PvP. I post just for the debate, and I post at night so I am not missing any sunshine.
I personally don\'t think much of the bounty hunter NPC, PK tags, or reward systems. I think they will be exploited. However there has been some interesting ideas.
Knock out instead of death. Allow players to attack each other but the death blow would not be allowed.
Safe merchant/newbie zones.
Jail, pkers would be put in jail where they could be attacked by all (like a stockade).
I also think a playable bad guy race would be fun. I am thinking of the \"GM\" pen and paper role. You could select an enemy race that could not be leveled, or bank. You could attack only players, and loot there corpses of \"shinny things\".
Well just more ideas, I don\'t really care if there are in the game or not.
-
Disclaimer: everything stated in this message is intended as nothing more than a general template/concept to be considered or dismissed. Not an absolute or inflexible suggestion (not that I\'d be arrogant enough to assume it so. heheh).
First, I\'m perfectly happy in a setting where the gameplay is primarily PvE with a consensual PvP aspect (arena, duals, etc.). However, I also understand that as happy as I am without pure PvP.. others are equally happy with it. I think it\'s fair to provide something of both PvE and PvP, if possible, to keep everyone happy.. you know.. that whole Compromise thing.
Of course, how do you do it?
Well, here are some thoughts based on other games I\'ve played that I think had it right - or at least reasonably implemented.
First, have areas that are designated strictly as PvP or non-PvP. Cities, towns, villages, temples or other such areas of sanctuary could be non-PvP - anywhere the \"law extends to\". The only exception being an arena, etc. As a general rule if you are, for the most part, safe from any PvE encounters, so too should you be safe from PvP encounters. If you try to attack someone, a guard or other designated \"protector\" for that area will swiftly come after you.
Wilderness areas or areas otherwise outside the immediate reach of any one city/town/village/sanctuary (ie. outside its walls, or outside a certain distance) would be open to PvP - with some caveats.
This is where I think a \'Challenge Rating\' system might be useful. They have this implemented in different games in some good ways. In Neverwinter Nights, you can examine someone and see their challenge rating relative to you. In games like Dungeon Siege and others, what color a person\'s name is displayed (when you click on them or mouse-over them, etc.) is an indication of how challenging they appear to you... This seems to be the most common of the two.
Mind you, it\'s all relative - especially when you\'re not discussing absolute character levels, but skill levels... someone might be way more effective as a mage than someone else is as a fighter, even though they\'re 2 levels lower than the fighter.
Now, the use of the challenge rating would be to allow implementation of a setup where, in a PvP-allowed area, you can only challenge someone within, for example, two challenge levels above or below you, allowing for a total of 5 possible challenge levels to work within (2 levels above or below, or evenly matched).
If you come up to someone who is outside that range, you simply cannot challenge them at all. It could be hard-coded that you cannot physically attack them. The option doesn\'t exist. This would ensure fair matches and that high levels with a penchant for killing low-level/new characters won\'t have that option - unless they want to never level up beyond that point... which,
I\'d think, would defeat the overall purpose of playing to begin with. They\'d get bored and leave, or saddle up and play the game the way it\'s intended :-).
To further put a caveat on that.. say there\'s someone you\'re attacking who is within the level range to fight, but just isn\'t interested - there could be a timer of sorts that starts counting down from the time of your first attack - if the person you\'re attacking has not begun fighting back before that timer runs out, you have to stop attacking them or some penalty will come into play
for each additional strike... If you kill them, well, then some harsh penalties will come into play.
Now.. in a dual or Arena setting, you can challenge anyone you want, no matter what their level. If someone feels they want to challenge you, they\'re doing so full-knowing you\'re higher than them and they have the choice to accept or decline - thus no one can claim \"foul play\" should they beaten really badly. The reward for winning or penalties for losing (if any) are decided by the devs, etc...
Anyway.. just some thoughts based on general themes I\'ve seen implemented effectively in other games.
Thanks!
Mike
-
From a roleplaying point of view, I\'m all for playerkilling.
Murderers and thieves are a part of every society, and a few of them lurking in the shadows would in my opinon add to the realism, and create an even better environment for roleplayers. But there is a huge difference between allowing players to kill other players, and to encourage that sort of behaviour.
The problem seems to be how to create balance in an artificial world, where there is no real consequenses to your actions. I\'m currently playing Dark Age of Camelot, and where playerkilling is \"allowed\" everyone roleplays a lunatic murderer. ;)
I think everyone should have the OPTION to play an \"evil\" character, BUT they better be prepared to take the consequenses of, say, stabbing an innocent man in the back, on the town square in the bright of day.
I can\'t say I know a perfect sollution to this, but one thing that comes to mind is permanent death. For an example having the person dealing the first blow be blessed with a temporary perma-death-flag for a set ammount of time. Or even make the \"perma-death-flag\" faction based, with playerkilling (outside arenas or other PvP areas) setting the variable. Something to make a character think twice.
Just my 2 cents on playerkilling. PvP or no PvP - either way I\'m really looking forward to playing a mmorpg with focus on the roleplayers.
-
Yes it\'s been a while since I posted in the PVP forum.
There is nothing wrong with PvP and I think every person will agree with that. I am a strict rper. PvP would add realism to the rp. But that is the problem, not everyone is an rper. No matter what limits or boundaries you set there will always be those people who abuse the PvP and become griefers. When you have griefers they ruin and upset rp. Therefore if you want strict rp you can\'t have PvP. So you have a choice. You can have either an RP game or you can have an open PvP game. Very rarely can you have both.
So if I had to choose between the two I would pick the RP game.
-
What do you think about having an option to play the NPC bad guys?
I mentioned this in my previous post, but I want to clarify the idea. First of all the game could be designed as a PvE game. Players can not attack other players and the city is 100% safe. However when you log online you would be given an option to play your main character, the one with all the cool stuff, or log in as a random Mob. As a mob you would have a special chat channel that would only let you chat with \"canned\" phrases. Your movement would be limited as well. You would have to stick arround the spawn point.
More than likely you would just be a sitting duck for the PC characters to pick off. However if you were lucky enough to be able to coordinate using only the normal game rules your force would scare the heck out of the regular player characters.
For example, you log on with the Mob option and find your a troll in a camp with a 5 other trolls. You can see a group of players preparing to take on the camp. They are casting spells and healing up. You think you can catch them off guard, so you select the canned phrase \"Attack the smelly beasties!\" then rush the party. Once they attack you, you run back to the camp. The server would use the same rule set for you as it would anyother Mob. Your \"agro\" list would then be transfered to the 5 other Trolls, and the six of you could attack in force. Once you were killed you would spawn in a completly different location/mob.
People might want to exploit this too grief players, but it would be impossible to truly suprize players since they will be geared up for taking a camp anyways. Players would catch on very quickly and learn that a camp of Mobs might be more than just a bunch of targets. Players could be protected somewhat by changing your vision when you play as a Mob. Instead of seeing the players races as what they are, they would see just generic pale, small, ugly things, and names of players would definately not show up if your a Mob. For instance Trolls might see anything that moves as some sort of giant chesse puff.
Just think, if you get lucky you might log on as a bandit, and get to rob caravans as they pass through.
-
Paxx this forum is to discuss PVP idea\'s, so if you don\'t like them just ignore them. Just like the wish list, not all idea\'s are going to be implemented in game. Anyway, to make a good RPG, you need a whole lot of choices. If you are a rogue or bandit and you can\'t mug anyone and take something of theirs, what fun is it being a rogue? I am not a huge supporter of PK, as I don\'t like griefers anyway. But there have been more than enough idea\'s to severely punish griefers and the sort. Bottom line, this is a forum about PK. Expect to see new idea\'s tossed into the air in hopes that maybe the devs will change their minds, don\'t get upset because of it.
-
Dalec,
Be nice Paxx is on our side. He wants PvP in PS.
-
derwoodly,
What did I say that was not nice to Paxx? I only stated that this forum is used to talk about PVP and Thieving ideas so he should not get mad reading about new ideas in this forum. If anyone wasn\'t being nice it was Paxx for trying to not let us post new ideas about PVP and Thieving - whether they can be implemented or not.
-
Just some things of the top of my head for thief types, I\'m not the most experienced RPG\'er so if my ideas are lame just ignore me.
There is more to being a thief than stealing from players. Thieves could have to oportunity to steal from NPC\'s/merchants with the chance of getting caught or jailed, and non thief skill characters would not have these options in thier menu or whatever we use. If you think of other illegeal type activities in RL there is loan sharking, gambling, and lots of stuff the could be \'criminal\' and consensual in game play. You don\'t have to take a loan from the mob, or gamble in a casino. Maybe even have raids on these places by the town gard adding some excitement by possibly getting caught in there. Could be good RP stuff to bail your buddy out who has a big gambling debt, or something like that. Could have sections of some towns that are designated \'Thieves Alley\' and give a little warning screen to alert people before they enter so they know they may get pickpocketed. That would probally be alot of work on the programing side though.
-
lol PKing rules. Speaking of Everquest even on the non PVP server you could have free PVP.
The player starts off with a book. If player hands this in to a priest of discord player becomes a PKer and is allowed to kill other PKers but not non PKers. the name is also in red or something. to not be a PKer he has to not attack a player for a week or something then go back to the priest
also picking on the weak is fun. Its their own fault if they get in the way lol. Anyway you never really did loot weak players corpses. You just walk through a group of noobs and smash them all with a BAM and a ZAP and a AAAHHHH and walk away from a few piled corpses looking innocent.
with thiveing i guess you could only thieve from NPCs lol.
also speaking of PKing.....
-
Dalec,
I look forward to Paxx\'s posts, he is the only developer that thinks pking can be fun. The rest of them are going for a EQ blue server feel. One look at the number of posts on the different forums will tell you that pkers are in the minority.
If Paxx ignores the forum, then we will be talking to ourselves. Heck, if I read between the lines in Paxx\'s last post, I believe that that last post of Paxx\'s was his last post on this forum.
The crux of the problem is this, the top ten percent of PS players will be winning 95% of the battles. This means as a newbe, or a non-power gamer, you will get killed 19 out of 20 times. It does not take a rocket surgeon to figure out that after a few months the only ones on your server will be power players and idiots like me. You have to have a very thick skull and a low forhead to play a game you loose all the time.
-
lol
ok thinking realistic
they say they not plan for free pvp.
so lol that means they no plan for pvp.
but i do want to see things like guild wars were it is free for all between the two guilds. that would be funny. Walking into a room filled with people from the opposing guild. Next thing you know you are walking away a little bit richer while all the corpses in the room smoulder.
if only fragnetic could spare one server for pure PKing lol.
If only the devs would change their minds
-
What i put down here is a combination of the ideas mentioned before on this forum.
However it\'s an impression of my thought on how PvP could be implemented without too much grieve.
Without PvP in general there should be at least NPC\'s to play the role of bandits/thieves/bountyhunters and the like. This way some aspects of fantasy worlds like a escorted merchant still remain in PS. I really like the idea someone had of being able to play a NPC. Especially if you can pick a category like bandit/merchant/monster etc. This way NPCs can behave more intelligent creating more fun.
But i would want PvP to have almost no limit. Not because i like to attack other players, my char just defends himselfs and attacks only if it is really necessary.
To prevent random killing, killing a char doesn\'t give you any equipment or money. At death a char keeps all the stuff on his/her body. Nor do you gain experience of it. Also PvP might be only possible at a certain level.
Guards prevent slaughter/thievery in town, breaking the law means getting killed or paying a fine.
The only place for fights in town is in the arena (official competitions with tickets for seats would be fun) after a challenge by some law.
Stealing doesn\'t have to imply killing, a skill for pickpocketing is possible. Succes means a small amount of money is stolen, failure: the one who is stolen notices you or the guards try to arrest the thief. And carts of merchants are open for thievery.
Notorious criminals and members of a thieve guild are known to guards (are extra aware when this person is around), could have a bounty on their head and be outlawed. For the greatest criminals a public announcement is placed with ranking on a public location. Jail is however only for NPCs for obvious reasons it would be less fun to be captive.
Grieve causers can be found by letting a moderator know when a person kills x persons with obvious lower levels in a short while. Without good reason a penalty is inflicted based on the history of the characters conduct.
Besides private property there is guild property. This is dropped when your killed.
Just my notion of how i would make the game.
-
Originally posted by Ionas
Grieve causers can be found by letting a moderator know when a person kills x persons with obvious lower levels in a short while. Without good reason a penalty is inflicted based on the history of the characters conduct.
I believe this is exactly what the developers do not want. They do not want to babysit all of the players. If killing newbies is wrong, then the computer should not let you do it.
The goal is a \"Non-grief\" game with PvP content so entertaining that even the hard core IRC chat type players will want to play.
Ionas did mention a system that you would loose nothing when you died. This mightbe good place to start. It really takes the sting out of death if you just respawn will all your stuff and gold. It is not my favorite idea, but it is a good compromise.
I like the play a NPC idea too, mostly because it was mine. I am going to call it the \"MOB for a day PK\" idea. I think I have a leveling idea for it as well. The first time you log on you will have to play a rank one type mob. As you gain skill you can log on as bigger and bigger NPC\'s(MOB\'s). It should work something like the way you \"unlock\" different Avatars in the playstation games.
Some key elements would be limiting the chat channel to prevent you from \"spaming the zone\" as an anonomous NPC. You could have a private chat channel for chatting to other MOB type players like your self, but not to the regular players. Your range as a MOB would also be limited. You could not log on and travel too far from your spawn point. If PS has zones then you would be limited to just that zone. The general idea is for online players to replace the AI of the \"environment\" type mobs.
Thief type mobs! They could have a deposit point. A Thieves den if you will. You run out of the den and rob someone then return with the gold. Smart players would know to stay well away of the Thieves den! This in not just a player thing. The computer would do the same thing. No more bandit camps that just stand there waiting for you to Mug and roll them! If you want your stuff back your just going to have to take down the Thieves den. I am thinking this should be like a instance type dungeon in EQ.
What do you think?
-
First of all let me apologize for making it look like it was my idea of playing an NPC. I tried to make clear it wasn\'t however after reading back my post i can see it isn\'t obvious. It is a great idea however.
The problem with not losing stuff at death is of course it makes powerleveling easier. A possible solution to this is only keeping all stuff when slain by another player and losing some when killed during a battle with a NPC.
About my other idea: The devs don\'t have to babysit themselves, as on this forum other experienced players can do the job.
Or the system can be build in such a way that a player can only attack a number of players in a player in a period. Except when at war with those characters (after both agree with the challenge).
A third possibilitie is (as i posted earlier) when a character kills a number of players, a bounty is placed on that char. This bounty is then placed on public boards in the towns for all to see. Players playing bountyhunters can hunt these chars for money.
The person with a bounty has to pay a severe penalty to remove the threat.
-
Ionas,
First off let me say it is good to have one more pro pvp player.
Second, I did not think you were taking credit for the Mob-for-a-day idea. You just said someone posted it. I only mentioned it for humors sake. The sarcasim in my voice does not always carry into my writing. Most of my posts come off as much more angry than I actually am.
And Thirdly let me say the bounty hunter thing has been beaten to death, well actually all of the issues have been beaten to death, but they just keep respawning. The problem with the bounty hunter idea is that it does not stop the PKer from griefing. Sure they now have a tag on their head, but most serious pkers actually want a bad rep. So the roleplayers will leave the game and you will just have the old Pker vs Anti-pker game. In addition the players who hunt the \"bad guys\" would get tagged as bad guys themselves if they happen to kill a pker that just did not have a tag on his head that day.
The goal is to make the game as griefless as a carebear server. I am not sure I will enjoy this type of game, but if I understand Paxx correctly that is the goal.
-
Originally posted by derwoodly
Second, I did not think you were taking credit for the Mob-for-a-day idea. You just said someone posted it. I only mentioned it for humors sake. The sarcasim in my voice does not always carry into my writing. Most of my posts come off as much more angry than I actually am.
I know, its just that after reading my post back it looked to much like i was claiming the idea as my own. I am glad you see it that way :)
About the bountyhunter notion. Though it has been brought up countless time and every argument has been said about the idea i can\'t help myself posting about it. If we keep nagging perhaps the devs come around *wishfull thinking*. I really like the idea of bountyhunters.
Maybe in the future an experiment with such a system can be carried out to find out how it works out. For now it is better to have a simple game without pvp. In the future this can be extended with advanced pvp.
-
Bounty hunter system...
OK, for arguements sake lets sapose we have a bounty hunter sytem. It works something like this. You are angry at some player for some reason and you kill them outside of town. You now are tagged as a killer. As a \"killer\" you will now have to watch your back because there is a bounty on your head. The player you have killed has reported you some how and your name is on a list as a bad guy. Two possibilities can be the case. One, your evil and getting a price on your head is a badge of honor and you embark on a mission to see how high the bounty will go. Two, it was a moment of weakness and your really sorry, but now there is no turning back, your involved in a soap opera style adventure.
Maybe this is what you want. But, in neither case has PKing been reduced. I believe that a bounty huntersytem while fun, would do nothing to discourage Pking. In fact I think it would encourage it. It turns the MMORPG into cops and robbers.
It is also not needed. If you have a full PvP system the players can easily form there own police system. You will get killers and bounty hunters without any kind of special tag.
-
Okay i see your point. Ill just discuss them one by one.
You say that there is no turning back, this isn\'t the case though. You can always pay a fine and be free. I admit some strong players could try to have a higher bounty and so the effect would be the opposite of the supposed one. Don\'t know a way to counter this right now, if i come up with any ill post it.
And yes a cop/thug system can and will be created by players. However in my post i stated that the system supports the bountyhunters. A bountyhunter gets money when the person is slain. Public notices are available. And the bounty is automaticaly attached.
-
Ionas,
I can see you like the bounty hunter idea. If it worked like you said it would then I would like it too. I just can not imagine how.
For the sake of arguement, I am going to assume the role of griefer in PS. First thing I need to do is make a griefing character and level him to a point where he can kill with ease. I will be very nice and make lots of friends untill I get to a point where most of my skills are maxed out. I will want skills that help me against other players. I will need stealthing skills and high damage and a way to stun my victoms. Wizzard stlye characters are usually good for this.
When I log on I will look for lowbie players and ones that are injured. Cast invisibility, sneak up on victom, stun-nuke-loot dead corpse. Then log off. Eat a casual lunch, mow the lawn, log back on and kill more victoms. Log off, watch TV, Hug and kiss the wife, log back on and kill more newbies.
With this style of play most of the bountyhunters wil get frustrated because I will not be online long enough to let them find me. I will have a good time and get a huge ego bost at haveing large numbers of kills to my name. I could even fire up the ol\' modem, open a Earthlink dial-up account and lead a double life. I could even hunt myself down! Oooohh I will get that dasterly Evil wizzard! what a low life killing helpless newbies!
-
Thanks for the clear response, i agree now that the bountyhunter system doesn\'t cut it. Don\'t know a good system for pvp besides your NPC thing. And someone mentioned the idea of having people agree they\'re mortal enemies so they can attack each other whenever whereever.
-
I recently realized that to have a good mmo, pking should not be implemented everywhere, but only in certain areas.
Just think, it is so easy.
There should be areas in PS where PVP, pking, griefers are totally allowed, but at the same time, players would want to go there for some reason.
These areas could be absolutely different in size, but one will not be able to just walk there. Only a teleport would take one there or bridge with armed guards and the player would have to be experienced(if experience lvls are implemented in PS) to enter the teleport or bridge.
Well, you just might say, the griefers would camp near the teleports on the pvp side, but that could be dealt with either by teleporting the player in random spot in the area or placing some kind of \"last hope\" kind of npc camp with guards and towers that will attack anyone who starts a fight on the premises or little farther from the camp.
These places would generally have evil names like \"Dark Forest of Doom\" :D, or \"Steppes of death\", whatever. They would be perfect places for evil guilds. Guilds would have guild wars right there among each other... Mercs would have work by escorting \"good\" players thru the land..
The question lies, why would anyone want to go there other than pkers and evil guilds?
Well first of all, it would be areas for any guilds to fight, it would be perfect places for good guilds to hunt evil guilds.
But is there a need for a loner to go there?
Well, there could be expensive minerals there, unique creeps, and other things that could only be found in those areas.
People would assemble parties and go after the creeps, but at the same time, face the danger of being pked.
-
I did not want to turn you off to the Bounty hunter idea. I just wanted you to see why Paxx posted they way he did. Well anyways here is another idea. Some of this is not original but I am post it to keep the ball rolling
Give guilds the option to pk. What I mean is give guilds an option to Create a guild that could attack everyone and everyone could attack them.
Make a bountyhunter guild that would be given rewards for killing guild members that are in a War guild. For example players in a bounty hunter guild would be the onlyone to get a skill increase if they killed a player in a war guild.
Game play might work something like this. A thieves guild could decide that they are tired of mob killing and grouping with \"good\" characters. They all vote and decide to trun on the War option. Now they are pkers. They can steal from anyone and kill anyone. However anyone can atack them as well, and If your a member of a bountyhunter guild you can gain \"skill points\" by hunting down the thieves and killing them. City guards could be programed to attack all pk guild members on site. Cityies could be made realatively safe by putting enough NPC guards in them.
Bounty hunter guilds could be given a feature that lets them know when a war guild member logs on! That would make it very scary for the PKers. Maybe too scary and nobody would use the feature. Heh, maybe not.
-
Originally posted by paxx
The current goal of this game is to provide a world to explore and adventure in, where the good guys, (the players) have a clear understanding of the bad guys (the MOBs wanting to kill you)
oh, how nice... so I\'m forced to be a good guy...
Not sure if I get it right...
Planeshift is gonna be about running around and slaying monsters with some roleplay features added, yet the most important, \"you can be whoever you want\", not implemented. Right?
Not sure how is it going to encourage those who play p&p RPGs to come to Planeshift, as it won\'t give as much fun from roleplaying as RPGs do.
As a matter of fact you just discouraged one...Originally posted by paxx
This may seem odd, but if you play paper and pencil RPGs, you know that 90% of the time you play the good guys.
10% evil guy, 30% good guy, 60% neutral guy. Or something like that.
Well that\'s true, but in p&p RPGs Game Master controls lots of characters with some personalities and some of them will be evil guys that try to stop PCs
Using various tricks, hiring bounty hunters... in other words doing cool stuff that will make PCs watch their backs and know that there is some thinking person trying to get them killed.
I know it\'s hard to change and maybe I was fool to hope that Planeshift will give as much fun from roleplay as the oryginal RPGs do. But the point is I don\'t believe that with current aims Planeshift will be great roleplaying world.
-
Argh you will ruin the game making the evil just hordes of monsters and npcs! We need the evil guilds and what not to be the true evil, look at Dark Empire even Cabal! Those are the evils we need not just these so called groups of enemies with AI!!
By getting rid of the true evil guilds the lawful evil guilds your getting rid of the purpose of so many guilds! So many guilds purposes are to protect the innocent from the evil! If you do this your turning this game into Diablo II and will not even get close to achieving any status as a RPG!!!
-
If you take evil out you also take good out, same thing with lawfull and chaotic. So instead of enraging PvP we will have useless RP: because all people will be neutral; they won\'t have any \"worst enemy\" or any goal to defeat anything (besides AI mobs who don\'t have honor to be hurt...) . This won\'t be fruitful for RP.
Good thing PS is at its early stages, that way mistakes will teach.
-
Trying to hold some faith in the goodness of humanity, I also know that human nature can be very perverse.
I know we will see evil players. We have already seen some in MB. Adding monsters will add new possibilities of traps, mobs usage for the advantage of evil.
I am rather happy to know I will have to fight evil monsters. And I will stay on the good side. why should I become neutral? I don\'t want to hurt any peaceful merchant because I don\'t like the prices - poor Trokin ;)
I\'ll remain a good person with the other players.
The only who can complain are the evil Role Players.I mean Evil Role players. I hope for them (and for the fun of all of us too) they\'ll have possibilities to use the evil mobs forces for theyr evil plans.
Don\'t become good again Draklar, you\'ll find a way ... I hope
-
That\'s just it Golmir, you won\'t have a chance to attack a merchant... you won\'t be able to be evil. If all are alike and you just follow what you must follow, then you are neutral because your not doing evil or good, just doing something.
Just something else: RP requires time and patience, don\'t think that just because there is no PvP people will start RPing, people also like to become the best, so the main objective will be to kill mobs and become the highest level hero and to have the most expansive items.
-
Originally posted by Sangwa
Just something else: RP requires time and patience, don\'t think that just because there is no PvP people will start RPing, people also like to become the best, so the main objective will be to kill mobs and become the highest level hero and to have the most expansive items.
And when it starts coming to that, this game will be labeled hacknslash!
@Golmir - Both Evil Players and Good Players should worry about this because what is the purpose of so many good guilds...even my own is meant to protect from evil! Not evil monsters....evil guilds! Anyone can protect from evil monsters but evil guilds is another whole thing!
-
Exactly Depthblade, I totally agree. That was my point it will become a Hack n\' Slash instead of a RPG
-
Originally posted by derwoodly
What do you think about having an option to play the NPC bad guys?
I like this idea a lot. That keeps the enimies from becoming boring but what if a lot of people want to play npcs? Also would you be able to keep items looted or just for fun pk.
As far as thieving goes I would like a system where if the person is not doing anything you can steal but if they are doing something you instantly get caught and you have to fight them with a stat handicap.
you would be unable to steal equipped items.
A system like this encourages role play and prevents afkers as they would be robbed blind while away.
-
playing Non Player Characters? ?(
that sounds somewhat weird...
-
Being wierd, just means it is not mainstream. What I invision is very close to what EQ would do when they would have a \"GM\" event. What makes it different than EQ\'s system is that anyone could log on as one of the \"bad guys\". In EQ system only preselected support staff members could be a \"Mob-for-a-day\". To make a system where anyone could assume this role there would need to be some special rules for these characters. The rules would have to limit the amount of greif they could cause, while still making it \"fun\" to be a NPC.
If it was not fun at all then nobody would use the feature and it would be a lot of coding for nothing.
If it worked correctly then Mob-for-a-day would be come a must have feature for all MMORPG\'s and PS can say they had it first.
If it worked all too well, then camping mobs would be
just too hard and newbie corpse would litter the streets.
[edit-- Yes by *playing* a NON-player character I have created an oxymoron]
-
paxx,
this is like music to my ears..............music sung by char britny spears, 2-pac, slim shady, and whatever other crappy bands i can think off all on a scrached cd!!!!!!!!!
i do not agree on this system but i do like that we have something in our knowledge.
most of the ideas i hear suck but hear me out.
most pking isnt caused because of just desire to kill or for money and loot its revenge that sparks it and the only people that ive seen a ggame that has loot killers was rune scape. we need some sort of a wilderness that encorrages people to go in but it would be risky. strong creatures and players could kill you there. it would be a faster and more adventourous way to other cities and also more dangerous so think of that
-
Listen people i just posted an idea already, but since i got no people insulting this idea, i decided to post it here.
Listen people lets create a system where you can\'t tell if a player is stronger or weaker than you, simply by not having any stats showing to any of the other players. Like in real life. If you read my thread entitled \"being modest\", you\'ll c what i mean, hopefully its understandable i tend to write lots of tangled stuff.
Ps: I realise about the problem of enhanced weaponry and armour, and as soon as i know what to do about that.......well.
-
It could be an option to have save roads and dangerous countries. A player could choose to use the dangerous but faster way or the save but slow way. This way no one has to fight when they don\'t want to.
-
Originally posted by kronon
It could be an option to have save roads and dangerous countries. A player could choose to use the dangerous but faster way or the save but slow way. This way no one has to fight when they don\'t want to.
yes someone who gets my idea! yay! an agreeer
-
I think it has been agreed that there will at least be quest-specific PVP areas, maybe just not quite as comman as \"reality\", but PS isn\'t a game where \"player-killing\" is a standard path you can take. Perhaps in really uninhabited areas they\'ll open up PVP, perhaps not. I think that they\'ll play with the possibilities as the game develops.
-
Originally posted by derwoodly
What do you think about having an option to play the NPC bad guys?
Why NPC, just add evil race characters for players to choose from. Play a human or play an orc, both with cities, npc guards, merchants, etc. Kill the orc, get exp and loot, vis versa... You just saved yourself from a butt load of AI coding for the orc race AND it\'s not a static spawn.... of course no communication between the two allowed. Armor/weapons, nah, what human could wear orc armor, etc. Orc, bah it no want no hu-mun arm\'or, it juz want da shine\'ez....race specific items...
btw, kewl idea, would love to play some nasty npc for the day >=) hell maybe a few days...muwahahaha
-
Originally posted by ajdaha
Listen people i just posted an idea already, but since i got no people insulting this idea, i decided to post it here.
Listen people lets create a system where you can\'t tell if a player is stronger or weaker than you, simply by not having any stats showing to any of the other players. Like in real life. If you read my thread entitled \"being modest\", you\'ll c what i mean, hopefully its understandable i tend to write lots of tangled stuff.
I actually think it\'s a good idea.
-
Me too. :)
-
yes i agree with few make the game realer ideas but i do agree withthat. i ean in real life can you see that someone is an awsome chief??? the only problem i see is that people will be dressing like noobs and waiting to get attacked then killing whoever in one shot :D its a dream come true!!!
-
Originally posted by ajdaha
Me too. :)
It was your idea. :P
-
As loads of things are said on this forum I\'m sure that the few ideas I have about PKing or thieves have already been mentionned.
If I write that it\'s because I\'d like to mention that whatever solution you choose there will always be some problems, but I trully think (even if I\'m a total n00b in PS I think I understand the kind of community it is) that if you give just a little opportunity to steal and PK, someone will find a way to exploit it and teach some others how to do it,
on the other hand, the good guilds (and most of the players) wont let thieves and pk rule the world and they will surely be powerful enough to prevent big problems.
That\'s why I\'m sure that there will be a balance between good and evil independantly of the solution that will be chosen, even if this balance could need the help of a few updates...
Well, all this stuff just to say that things will end well for everyone in a wonderful project like PS, they always do finish well, don\'t they ?
-
keep in mind that this is pre-alpha and at best CB will be beta, I think the devs are far more worried about getting a working basic combat system and magic system to work with simple pve let alone start dealing with the complexity that pvp brings
also keep in mind there are 8 levels to the stalagmite and currently there is very much work to be done on just the first level, this means that once the basics get ironed out it might not be that hard to implement a few whole levels down to pure pvp, with all the content that would be on the other 5 levels you could easily have room for people who don\'t want any grief and the people who like the darker side of life, then your noobs wouldn\'t accidently wander into a pvp area and get slaughtered by a griefer because it would take some effor to get down to one of the other layers that have pvp
then there has been talk about inter city markets where someone takes a caravan to the city and has to pass through pvp zones to get there . . . well if you had a non-pvp trading city at the bottom (i believe there is a lake at the bottom which could make for some amazing scenery) that offered a good reason for people to bring caravans from other cities closer to the top then they would have to pass through several pvp layers which in turn means there is business for protection and thieves (once the user community is big enough to support it)
maybe i\'m reading into some of these posts but i hate to see people getting discouraged because feature X (in this case pvp, pk and thief skills) doesn\'t look like it will be implemented for a while, the devs have done an amazing amount of progress and the basic foundations are just being layed, I personally think that the version after CB we will start seeing some of the really interesting ideas for pvp, jobs, and skills begining to be designed in
-
It looks like my wish came true
-
Originally posted by Ikarsik ... also picking on the weak is fun. Its their own fault if they get in the way lol. Anyway you never really did loot weak players corpses. You just walk through a group of noobs and smash them all with a BAM and a ZAP and a AAAHHHH and walk away from a few piled corpses looking innocent.
with thiveing i guess you could only thieve from NPCs lol.
also speaking of PKing.....
And therein lies the fundamental argument against unrestricted, non-consentual PK The quote above would be termed griefing by anyone sane.
Please take these thoughts as my own subjective opinion and not that this is the way it \"should\" be implemented. I am but adding my thoughts to the PvP debate, no more, no less... ;)
For far too many, in my humble opinion, PKing the weak may be fun. For the weak, it most decidedly IS NOT fun. It totally destroys their immersion on so many levels. Especially so when the Pker can rob them of important +stat items they have fought long and hard to obtain. What most PK/griefers seem to forget (or choose to ignore) is that even though they are PKing in a game scape, there are real people behind those lowbie characters. Those folks feel anger, frustration, depression, et al. The \"weak\" and low of level have time invested in the game as well as the PKers and deserve the right not to be griefed.
I have nothing against PvP as a concept and would like to see PvP in the game as well. I\'m ambivalent about the thieving part; as long as thieves cannot take items of value I\'ve worked hard to obtain, I have no opinion other than that. Perhaps the devs could spawn a \"trophy\" item that would appease the Pkers when they make a kill. This would allow them to \"loot\" their victim and yet not take valuable items from that victim.
What I do take issue with, speaking only of PvP, is the folks who think that griefing someone of a lower level is fun. In fact, people who find griefing in any form fun in my estimation are immature in the extreme. In my opinion, anyone who would PK lower level players like this is not a true PvPer, they are simply and purely a griefer; there are many games extant that allow this already.
Thankfully, for whatever reasons, the developers of Planeshift have decided that it stops here! I applaud their decision. Having said that, for the sake of the true PvPers out there, I do hope they find a way to implement controlled, governed by strict rule-set PvP for all those mature enough to accept PvP on those grounds.
Why don\'t folks who find this lowbie PKing fun take on folks of their own level or higher for a change? I\'ve been playing table-top fantasy games, MUDs, MMOs, ad nauseam, long enough that my two sons are now grown and are also gamers. My observation over the years has been that most of these lowbie-gankers cannot play their characters well enough to take on players of their own level so they grief the only ones they can win against--the weak! This is not always the case, but in the larger majority of cases, I\'ve found it to be more an axiom than exception.
If PvP were set up under a strict rule-set that stipulated one could not PK more than 2 - 3 levels below their own level, and then only under flagged for PvP conditions (so the other player could have a choice to consent to the encounter or not), I might feel differently. This would force these griefers to fight folks more on their level. THEN we would see what was fun as what wasn\'t because many of these PKers would get their come-uppance in the form of sound thrashings when they went up against a character who had taken the time to truly master their character.
I also wouldn\'t mind large scale PvP, guild warfare, whatever one wishes to call it, if there were rules in force that kept these encounters from turning into massive gank-zergs. I tend to agree that certain \"wilderness\", or otherwise designated areas, should be open-PvP; especially so from an RP standpoint. If one ventured there, regardless of level, they automatically consented to being flagged for PvP. If I go \"across the tracks\", to coin an old 50\'s phrase, in real-life, I am prepared that I might get pick-pocketed, mugged, and so forth. The same could apply with these open-PvP designated areas.
From an RP perspective, warfare was the order of the day during the medieval world, which most MMORPGs are modeled to simulate. However, there was strategy and tactics employed almost universally. When undisciplined, untrained, leaderless mobs went up against disciplined, well-trained and led troops, the outcome of victory was almost always on the side of the latter. Read Sun Tzu or Clauswitz sometime and you\'ll find that most warfare was conducted by rules, loosely interpreted for the most part, but still there were rules, strategy and tactics in most warfare, just as there still is today in our modern military.
I know I just generated a massive flame fest and I\'m sorry. I just get so tired of all the \"I wanna wtfPwNn00bs type PvPers\".
Cheers!
Miago
-
Well just have the cities as safe pk zones, along with sewers and arena, that way people are free to hang around the saftey of the city they still have access to monsters and stuff to make money and improve their characters.
Places like the ojaroad could be pk zones, its open so you can go avoid people or just run from them, these places should also have the biggest rewards loot to be had. This also encourages guilds as to get to other cities and such saftey in numbers is away to go.
If groups of people establish them selfs as a dominant group and exert their force on people, well then the people just have to form a bigger group and remove them
-
Please forgive me if portions of what I write has already been posted. I read all the posts in this forum but there are so many....
Paxx, I feel your pain and sense your frustration, but there is a degree of truth in what is being said. PKing (no I don\'t and never will) is a fact of life. I agree with you that it should be discouraged in most cases, but as one poster said players should have a right to decide if they fight on the side of good or evil.
Having restated that, in the real world (any time period you care to pick) there have been area\'s where the evil ones gather to prey upon the weak and unlucky. these cowards use numbers frequently to make up for lack of skill and personal courage. Honor is generally a concept unknown to them.
But (and perhaps I am wrong here) PS is about more than just another RPG. It is about freedom as well. That IS why you ask us for input isn\'t it? So that we have the freedo to try to change this world to make it something more than a game? PS, as your and the other dev\'s legacy, hads the potential to be a real virtual world the likes of which have never been seen. If you don\'t realize that then your vision is even shorter than mine.
Therefore I suggest that PKing be limited to appropriate area\'s in game and limited to the number of players who could act as a criminal group. These players could practice unlimited PKing ONLY within the limited area\'s and would not be allowed to do so at any other location.
As for innocents, it would only take a victem or two before the population learned of their whereabouts and avoided the area or better yet, a guild like mine (Defenders) would come to kill them all.
Doubtless there are other arguments to make and other things to work out, but perhaps this could be a compromise solution.
BTW: Frr what it is worth, you and the others are doing a terriffic job and I hold you and all like you in the highest esteem...:)
-
BTW: I appologize for the spelling, it has been a long and difficult day...:)
-
Dear derwoodly,
Originally posted by derwoodly
Ionas,
First off let me say it is good to have one more pro pvp player.
Count me three... in a way...
Second, I did not think you were taking credit for the Mob-for-a-day idea.
The idea is very old, I\'ve seen it at least ten years ago on MUD-dev. I really like the \"MOB-for-a-day\"-idea, how you call it, it would be a good gamedisigners tool to allow non-griefing PvP. In former days, it has been called \"play-the-monster\", or \"Player-NPCs\", or \"GM-assistants\", and many more.
And Thirdly let me say the bounty hunter thing has been beaten to death, well actually all of the issues have been beaten to death, but they just keep respawning. The problem with the bounty hunter idea is that it does not stop the PKer from griefing. Sure they now have a tag on their head, but most serious pkers actually want a bad rep. So the roleplayers will leave the game and you will just have the old Pker vs Anti-pker game. In addition the players who hunt the \"bad guys\" would get tagged as bad guys themselves if they happen to kill a pker that just did not have a tag on his head that day.
You have resumed all the important agruments within one paragraph, which others aren\'t able to in their whole life... :-)
The goal is to make the game as griefless as a carebear server. I am not sure I will enjoy this type of game, but if I understand Paxx correctly that is the goal.
...but what do we - including Paxx - know intuitively? Something is seriously missing.
My thesis for PS is: The game is NOT griefer-resistant, it just avoids PvP. Griefing can be arranged in so many ways, that PKing will appear as a light from the better days of the past.
What is important, is to separate two things:
- PvP
- griefing behaviour
The first adds content to the game, the second subtracts players from a games community. So what PS needs (and then could add much more PvP, including thieving), is a griefer-resistant design, which is something completely different from a non-PvP-design.
I think the major problem is, that many people - and this includes Paxx unfortunately, despite this bright intellect - view and treat game-rules as one monolithic block, instead of separating the layers, as gamedesign-theory suggests:
- rules of simulation (lowest layer, defines the game)
- gameplay-rules (mid-layer, defines how players can adjust their level of fun)
- participation-rules (highest layer, defines who can or must not play, and how to enforce this, and/or how to motivate appropriate and discourage unappropriate behaviour)
Disallowing PvP, flagging \"you may kill me if you want\", etc. is on the gameplay-layer. But this does not discourage griefing, it just makes griefers more creative.
But if you affect griefers on the highest level - participation - you can really strike back. Griefers must be caught, expelled, and coming back from exile must *hurt*. If a griefers account is publicly deleted, and if there were anything, that made coming back a bad idea, *that* would make those people leave, and stop their actions.
The knack against griefing is, how to make griefing unattractive by gamedesign, and that means: Serious punishment.
PS does not have such, and so, griefers will be a fact of life. And as long as this is so, forbidding PvP won\'t help roleplayers in any way, it will just make the game less interesting.
-
I get it Paxx.........
and I must say, very nice post, upon reading it, it makes things more clear for the future of this game.........
and it sounds fun
-
[
and so, griefers will be a fact of life. And as long as this is so, forbidding PvP won\'t help roleplayers in any way, it will just make the game less interesting.
I agree with you and i dont really like they way paxx has discride the way the game is heading wiht PvP almost left out of the game.
I have posted how i think pk might work but by the looks of it i guess many people dont like my idea in the citys safe haven or something thread
-
wow paxx was right i just saw the new threads in the past couple of days and they dont even stray at attemting to come up with new idea or explain the one they do post. there has even been post not realated to pvp or thieing. I guess i havent been around long enough to see this sub fourm is worhtless
-
I originally posted this on the \"PKing is essential.\" (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=14688&boardid=21&styleid=3&sid=cdd46d58660440d4bc45cd79510bc86f) thread, but as this seems the best, most \"official\" thread on the topic, I will put it here.
Originally posted by Karii_Winterwalker
Originally posted by dying_inside
ummm... i would have to strongly disagree. pking, yes itis fun but noits not essential. if you just want to pk then you might as well play an action game rather than an rpg....
Perhaps you\'re right, if the \"role\" that you are playing is that of a person living in a world that defies the laws of nature (not physics; that is another thing entirely, and obviously, this is fantasy). How can one be an assassin if the best one can accomplish is to walk about asking targets \"Will you let me try to kill you?\" It is, quite simply, laughable. Currently, there is no dauntingly powerful town guard to apprehend criminals who are caught, so obviously this may pose something of a problem, and more obviously, players would whine to no end if they could be killed by a player they had not decided to duel, and could do nothing about it. To say that PKing is not a valid part of an RPG, however, is as devoid of common sense as saying the same of powerleveling. The essence is in the roleplaying, and so long as that requirement is met, everything else becomes not only acceptable, but appropriate, indeed an \"essential\" part of the game world, as those roles do indeed naturally exist, whether discouraged, tolerated, or encouraged.
I would actually be rather put out if I never needed to deal with an unsought attack or other unexpcted danger or situation, and it became clear that it was never intended that I would. What role is so sheltered that one does and has done to them only exactly what they choose, and who would honestly enjoy playing such a role? To be blunt, that would be pathetically boring, and I would be inclined to spend a large ammount of my time in Yliakum using it as a chat room, as I do now (and also as a testing grounds for the project, and it is currently exactly that). That is the current situation, but hardly a goal worthy of Talad\'s vision.
The game as it is, as has been stated many a time, is still in the very early stages of developement, and many things one might expect of a finished game are nowhere to be seen, and most of these are rather distant prospects. There is no organized society in Planeshift, no vast cities, no living politics, no wars and treaties, no NPC-run guilds with their own agendas, no schools, no houses, no live and shifting economy, no black market, no thieves, no assassins, no law enforcement, no laws...in short, none of the thrilling sense of a real, other world that is implied by the goals set for Planeshift as it has been described. It is a tech demo, and cannot yet support such things; but to say that they should never be included is...*shakes her head* I haven\'t the word for it. Depressingly cynical and bland, perhaps.