PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: Kuiper7986 on March 05, 2004, 07:14:51 am
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I\'m just interested to anyone that would like to answer this question. There\'s no right or wrong answer just to let you know, I\'m just curious to how some people think of life.
Question is do you believe in fate of free-will?
Fate is the supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events. Meaning do you believe everything in your life has already been planned and whatever happens tomorrow has already been pre-determined?
or
Free-will which is done of one\'s own accord; voluntary. Meaning whatever I do is because of what I do, nothing tells me how to live or how I will live my life. Everything I do is based on my decision and only my decision.
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I\'m scientific, so I say \"both\", depending on what extent/LoD.
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I dont believe so much in fate, but more, meaning, for lack of a better word.
My beliefs and even the way i live my life are similar to that of \'the dice man\' in that i make decisions based upon signs, dicerolls, and general unusual events during the day etc...
Its not so much that Im a believer in fate and that things will work out for the best, but rather i prefer to avoid the responsibility of running my own life.
(http://andromedabook.co.uk/acatalog/cvrLRtheDiceMan.jpg)
(edit: rephrased)
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There is no way to prove that we live according to a preexisting plan, or fate. We have freewill to do anything we choose as long as we have the means to do it. There is no supernatural power in the universe to help or hinder you - it just you and me.
I\'m cool with it. :]
I\'m pretty sure I\'ll carry this belief over to role-playing in PS. I\'ll role-play it, though. hehe.
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trying to answer lifes most important questions in a ps forum? thats almost as bad as searching google.com for it. all i have to say is... interesting...
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:X Mmm depends on your religion as well Mmm according to what I believe in it would have to be Fate (Catholic) Here is a short example of why, Judis one of the 12 apostles , he betrayed Jesus by kissing him on the cheek so the local army could identify him and arrest him! Well it also says that this was a predetermined event, Jesus knew that he would betrayed and would have to die. So Judis had no control over what he was doing according to scripture, so it must have been fate. Here is a mind boggling question, Judis is a prime evil in history for betraying Jesus Christ. This is also where the Kiss of Death comes from, now if it was predetermined and Judis had no REAL control over the events that occured, is he in Heaven or Hell?
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Heh... theism....
In Christianity no one really has any freewill anyway. God is omniscient. God knew man would fall, God knew Satan would rebel, etc., etc. And thus God already knows who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, and continuing the Christian logic, we are but pawns on a massive divine gameboard.
I don\'t believe in fate or destiny at all. As for freewill, that\'s a term that is as hard to define as \"justice,\" \"love,\" and \"beauty.\" Is freewill the freedom to choose? And just how much of that do we have in this world? Very little. But does that mean that we are woven into some predestined pattern? Bah.
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All time exists simultaneously. Therefore, you have freewill, but the future still still exists. Therefore, both.
That\'s what Einstein said anyway, and he\'s a smart guy.
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We are all puppets...sad...but true!
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In my humble opinion (of someone who maybe reads too much sci-fi), the future is predetermined. All the universe (and all its dimensions) could stand in one big equation with an insane number of parameters.
But maybe there are sometimes special circumstances in which random events occur, splitting the universe into several worlds, with a different consequence of the event in each of them.
In any case, there\'s no free will as we are just the \"consequences\" of the past. If the random events exist, then at least we can\'t say there\'s a fate, but if they don\'t exist, it\'s only about fate (and a huge equation).
Do I have to precise that I didn\'t make up my mind about it yet? And sorry if I confused some of you.
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Both.
Fate is not being destined to save the world, but more like \"s--t happens.\" All starts with chaos-theory and ripples outward.
cogito ergo sum
I think therefore I am.
If I am, and I think, I must have freewill. I\'m doing, not viewing.
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Yeah all those issues with time and all that theory stuff makes this a rather moot point. As it happens, moot is also my favourite word. Word.
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I\'ve had things happen to me that can be explained as either fate, or free-will with good luck. I\'d have to say \'both\' though.
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well i think lfe\'s most important q\'s is not fate but why are we here...as for fate or free will i believe life consist\'s of both example...it is free will (your chioce) that you buy a lottery ticket it is fate(chance) if you win. thousand\'s of people buy them but only a few win.
and that\'s my two cent\'s(actually that\'s only about a pennies worth of thought) :D
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Monketh went and canceled himself out of the universe with his explanation. Tough deal! :P Nice knowing ya, monk.
Karyuu, you are someone I can deal with.
I know we can speak about anything here in this forum but I still want to tie my comments into how I will role-play my ideas.
Explain this to me, anyone: Two guild have some kind of disagreement, probably economic, as most conflict stems from money and the security and power it can bring the person with the most of it.The two guilds cite \"religious\" reasons for their quarrel because it sounds cooler, motivates people, gets em all whipped up, etc. Pretty soon they are at war in the name of god. Question: is this the only reason people play at believing in a god? What other benefits come from being part of this or that relgion, in game, of course.
God bless you, my children.
PS: I perform civil marriage services if anyone is in need. I make them nice and memorable and I do not charge a fee of any kind. I have done it a few times already for couples in Planeshift. So, if you need a humanist - err - Enki-ist, call on me, Maax the Preacherman. :D
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There is only one way to settle this argument build a time machine and study your past self if you do everything exactly the same you have no free will if you do it diffrently you do have free will. Nuf said.
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i allready built a time machine but it broke down that\'s how i ended up here...and there are specific material\'s that haven\'t been invented yet that i need to fix it but i am working on that... but in the meantime i think i\'ll just mess around with thing\'s here and see what i can change :D
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Mmmm you are all controled by me!! MY WILL BE DONE!! :D
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like its fate
like in minority report the dude rolls a ball across a surface, it rolls off surface, other dude catches it.
\"why did you catch it?\"
\"cause it was like gonna fall\"
\"but if you hadn\'t caught it would it still of fallen?\"
or sumtin like dat
and then he like couldnt of \"not caught it\" because he \"did catch it\" and there is only one way for things to happen
and ya... and .... screw this lol.
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I personally don\'t believe in fate. I don\'t like to think that everything I do has been pre-determined :P
IMO, everything that people think of as fate is based on coincidence and luck.
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whoa that was fast *runs off to irc*
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If you could predict where every atom in the universe is and you could estimate there tragotory then you could look into the future.
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Originally posted by Watcher
If you could predict where every atom in the universe is and you could estimate there tragotory then you could look into the future.
Of those atoms, maybe. But it\'s going to take a lot of... stupidifyingly immense powers to look at the Big Picture and actually make sense of the mess.
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One French scientist believed that everything, even thought, could be predicted... but then quantum theory came along.
Originally posted by Ghostslayer
I personally don\'t believe in fate. I don\'t like to think that everything I do has been pre-determined :P
IMO, everything that people think of as fate is based on coincidence and luck.
And even if fate does exist, it betters your life not to believe in it.
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Originally posted by Davis
And even if fate does exist, it betters your life not to believe in it.
Not believe in what exists? That\'s ridiculous :P
(Not that I\'m saying fate exists. But that statement of yours is truly pure madness ;D)
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Free will, definitely.
Quantum Theory supports that too, I think.
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How could anyone beleive in both at the same time? Your every event in life is either pre-determined or not. Time is like our numerical system, there is no end and no beginning and it is impossible for people to understand the concept of infinity both ways because life is the only thing that has a beginning and an end.
Personally, I beleive in coincidences. Everything ever is nothing more than a coincidence. Think about it. It is very possible that a man could have found the love of his life if not she was killed in a car accident he was completely oblivious to at the age of ten. Life on earth would not have been possible if it were any closer to mars because all the water, the theorized birth of the first life form, would have been completely frozen. If Walt Disney\'s mother didnt die from carbon monoxide poisoning in her own home when he was a teen, he never would have changed his goals and produce one of the most successful businesses of man-kind.
Just think about what we could be missing out from today if technology was never put to an almost halt during medieval times to practice and war over religion.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Not believe in what exists? That\'s ridiculous :P
(Not that I\'m saying fate exists. But that statement of yours is truly pure madness ;D)
Whether you believe something alters the way you live. For example, even if God does not exist, very religious people are generally better people.
How could anyone beleive in both at the same time? Your every event in life is either pre-determined or not. Time is like our numerical system, there is no end and no beginning and it is impossible for people to understand the concept of infinity both ways because life is the only thing that has a beginning and an end.
How about this: The future exists, but you had/have a part in it\'s determination. Is predetermination not simply the existance of future events? That\'s what Einstein said. That\'s both.
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The future is there, but its nothing more than the results of our current actions. If there is any predetermination at all, thats fate 100%. If there is fate at all, how would fate descriminate between the big events to be the fate and the small events that lead to that big event are ours to control? To make such decisions, you would need a higher power, a god, a quick way of beleiving how the universe works.
(Einstein was a smart guy, but just because he said it doesnt mean its right. He did fail math in school you know.)
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Originally posted by Olig
The future is there, but its nothing more than the results of our current actions.
There. You just agreed with Einstein. Like you said, smart guy. So, where does your opinion differ?
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Davis sez:
Is predetermination not simply the existance of future events?
Right here. The future cannot be predetermined. You know why? Because the future has not happened yet. If it has, then its the past.
Olig sez:
(Einstein was a smart guy, but just because he said it doesnt mean its right. He did fail math in school you know.)
I never said he did. Its just that he MIGHT be because these kinds of arguments cannot be proven. I just dont like it when people attempt to justify themselves or a point by having an authority back it up.
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That\'s where we disagree. You say the future has not happened yet. I say it has.
And I don\'t see why I shouldn\'t say Einstein backs my opinion. He did research into this and found this was the most likely answer. I am supporting my conclusion with the results of his... whatever.
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Originally posted by Davis
For example, even if God does not exist, very religious people are generally better people.
... That\'s horse manure! I\'m an atheist, and I have noticed that I\'m a more moral and generous person than -every- devout theist I have ever met. Don\'t make such statements, Davis. Not unless you can back them up with excellent data.
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What? You don\'t notice the word \"generally\" there?
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And I disagree. Please explain how religious people are \"generally\" better.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
\\... That\'s horse manure! I\'m an atheist, and I have noticed that I\'m a more moral and generous person than -every- devout theist I have ever met. Don\'t make such statements, Davis. Not unless you can back them up with excellent data.
I tend to agree with Karyuu, here; although I would have used harsher language...
Anyway, time as we experience it need not be the only definition; that is, time need not flow in one direction, the direction we call the \"future\". (Although it probably does)
In any case, I\'ve always believed that the future is predetermined by chaos, and any illusion of free will is just that, an illusion. If we had a powerful enough computer (and enough knowledge) to track every particle on a quantum level since the beginning of time, we could easily see into the future (and the past and present, for that matter). The Kwisatz Hederach of telescopes...
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Grakim sez:
to track every particle on a quantum level since the beginning of time, we could easily see into the future (and the past and present, for that matter)
Grakim: There was no beginning of time. In chemestry, the one sure thing that was absolutely correct was this chemical law: In a chemical reaction, nothing is created nor destroyed.
That sentence alone rules out any gods creating the universe and proving that everything was already here. It is impossible to magically create something from nothing. If everything was already here, that means that time never had a beginning.
Davis: Religious people are not \"generally better\". In fact, if you read a history book, they are generally worse. KKK members are religious and so are the taliban. Are these generally better people? Those who kill because of differences? And don\'t get me started on christians and their little witch hunts and jewish gas baths.
To everyone: The future did not happen yet. How hard is that to understand?
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Explaining my \"generally better\" thing would derail the topic. PM me if you are still interested.
Also, if chemical law only exists after the universe was created, then what is to say that the universe wasn\'t created? If time is a property of the universe, what is to say that there was no time until the universe, which is, therefore, a beginning?
And why didn\'t the future happen yet? What proof do you have to back that up? We just aren\'t there yet.
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Originally posted by Olig
Grakim: There was no beginning of time. In chemestry, the one sure thing that was absolutely correct was this chemical law: In a chemical reaction, nothing is created nor destroyed.
That sentence alone rules out any gods creating the universe and proving that everything was already here. It is impossible to magically create something from nothing. If everything was already here, that means that time never had a beginning.
There\'s actually a popular theory that there was a beginning of time, and that matter did exist before then. Its said the universe repeatedly expands and then collapses on itself. Of course, its impossible to be for sure, its physics...
To everyone: The future did not happen yet. How hard is that to understand?
Who\'s to say something hasn\'t happened yet if it can be predicted?
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Originally posted by Grakrim
In any case, I\'ve always believed that the future is predetermined by chaos, and any illusion of free will is just that, an illusion. If we had a powerful enough computer (and enough knowledge) to track every particle on a quantum level since the beginning of time, we could easily see into the future (and the past and present, for that matter). The Kwisatz Hederach of telescopes...
What you call the illusion of free will is what I call free will. Just because it can be predicted doesn\'t make it any less free.
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Originally posted by Davis
What you call the illusion of free will is what I call free will. Just because it can be predicted doesn\'t make it any less free.
Ah, well that\'s reasonable enough, just a slight differance of definition.
Just curious. I meant free will as in the equal ability to make any decision, what, if I may ask, was your definition?
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Originally posted by Davis
And why didn\'t the future happen yet? What proof do you have to back that up? We just aren\'t there yet.
Originally posted by Davis
What you call the illusion of free will is what I call free will. Just because it can be predicted doesn\'t make it any less free.
Did you just switch sides?
Erhem, the universe always existed in some form or other, so therefore all of the laws always existed in some form or other, therefore quantum theory always existed in some form or other, therefore free will existed in some form or other. Imho that is. But the reason the future can\'t be predicted is because there are too many factors. And they multiply themselves exponentially when it comes to the possibilities of the future. For example, 6 billion human beings are each a factor.
But, to go the other way, I think it is perfectly possible to reconstruct past events, since they have already happened.
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I meant \"in theory\", Levski. Humans aren\'t likey to have the knowledge of every particle of the universe at any specific point in time, the knowledge to accuratly predict the movement of particles on a quantum level, and a computer with enough power and storage to take in and process all this information any time soon.
So in theory, its possible to predict the future.
As for the past, its not as straightforward as it sounds, and to adquetely reconstuct the past you must use the same type of calculations to calculate the future, just directed in the opposite direction... It might actually be slightly harder to calculate, but it makes my head hurt just thinking about it...
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Originally posted by Grakrim
Ah, well that\'s reasonable enough, just a slight differance of definition.
Just curious. I meant free will as in the equal ability to make any decision, what, if I may ask, was your definition?
The ability to do what you want. There is a difference there.
Originally posted by Levski
Did you just switch sides?
No, why do you ask?
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Oy vie, free will debate!
Do you have free will? Yes of cource you do. Why else would advertisers spend so much money trying to change your mind! If there was someone else controlling you, they would be directing their attention to them.
There is no contradiction in a diety that knows all and your free will. To assume otherwise requires flawed logic. Your free will has to be viewed from your perspective. If you assume the perspective of an all knowing diety without actually knowing everything, then you are only guessing at what that perspective is like. The argument must be phased \"if I knew everything and could not change what was going to happen then I would not have free will\". So I would argue since you don\'t know everything then you must have free will.
If a computer was created that could keep tract of every particle in the universe and could predict every motion of the particles, THEN you would not have free will. Since this computer has not been created, then You must have free will.
Levski,
Quantum Theory only exist as long as there are humans that believe in it, thus the word \"theory\".
Olig,
Hate, killed the Jews, not Christans.
Karyuu,
One always sees ones self as more moral and gererous than the \"other guy\".
Davis,
A good Christian never thinks of theirselfs as \"better\" than anyone.
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I find these discussions way too tedious to get into... but I figured I\'d leave my opinion here anyway. :P
This might be a little hard to explain, so bare with me. Think of biochemistry... cause and reaction... you know. Everything we do is dictated by electrical signals and chemicals in our brains. Okay, so, if you keep that in mind, you can understand the next part. :P
Free will could never be truely possible, as we ourselves are bound by our own biochemistry in this respect. You\'re not making a decision out of free will... you\'re making it because certain conditions caused your brain to want to choose to do it. Make sense?
If there really was anything like free will, we wouldn\'t survive a week... we would live in absolute chaos in rejection of our instincts and natural reactions.
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Originally posted by Levski
Erhem, the universe always existed in some form or other, so therefore all of the laws always existed in some form or other, therefore quantum theory always existed in some form or other, therefore free will existed in some form or other.
But your \'always\' only existed after the big bang...
But, to go the other way, I think it is perfectly possible to reconstruct past events, since they have already happened.
No it\'s not possible, because of i.e. the uncertainty principle or Heisenberg: \"The more precisely the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known.\"
And how can you get ever any information from a black hole (exept the mass and the size)?
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Originally posted by derwoodly
If you assume the perspective of an all knowing diety without actually knowing everything, then you are only guessing at what that perspective is like.
I don\'t want to turn this thread into a theistic debate - I don\'t think that\'s quite what it was meant for, but bringing a deity into the equation is really asking for it...
Originally posted by derwoodly
Quantum Theory only exist as long as there are humans that believe in it, thus the word \"theory\".
Do you have any idea of the scientific definition of the word \"theory\"? And also, your statement is akin to that of \"The evolutionary theory only exists as long as people believe in it.\" Things don\'t work that way.
Originally posted by derwoodly
Karyuu,
One always sees ones self as more moral and gererous than the \"other guy\".
You\'re assuming things. About me, about my experiences, etc. And I don\'t appreciate that. My morals are based on heavy thought, logic, and reason. They are more humane than those of nearly every devout theist that I have met, as I have stated previously. If you want to challenge that, go right ahead. But do not in any way assume that I\'m filled with self-pride and think myself to be above all.
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Originally posted by Mogura
I find these discussions way too tedious to get into... but I figured I\'d leave my opinion here anyway. :P
This might be a little hard to explain, so bare with me. Think of biochemistry... cause and reaction... you know. Everything we do is dictated by electrical signals and chemicals in our brains. Okay, so, if you keep that in mind, you can understand the next part. :P
Free will could never be truely possible, as we ourselves are bound by our own biochemistry in this respect. You\'re not making a decision out of free will... you\'re making it because certain conditions caused your brain to want to choose to do it. Make sense?
If there really was anything like free will, we wouldn\'t survive a week... we would live in absolute chaos in rejection of our instincts and natural reactions.
Why do people seem to think \"free will\" is the ability to supernaturally transcend what is natural? I say that you just described free will.
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Just pointing out that the term \'free will\' is a bit of an oxymoron... :P
*wonders what oxymoron really means, and assume it means what she wants it to* :D
(Just incase it doesn\'t... I mean that the word is \'hypocritical of itself\'.)
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I agree with Mogura on this one ;)
It\'s freewill with limits. There is no such thing as complete freewill, just as there is no such thing as complete omniscience (if you can know \"everything,\" can you know that 2+2=5? Of course not). Nor complete omnipotence, etc.
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i just read all the thread\'s on here and i have to say WOW all that from one little theoretical question....as for geligious people being generally better i have to disagree with that for the simple reason that if you look into our past most war\'s were caused in the name of one religion or another. it does not matter if you are religious or not it is the individual person who is good or bad not the religion they follow. religion is a matter of faith not personality...and that\'s my two cent\'s :D
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If fate or free-will exists, then luck can\'t exist. Luck is nothing more than someone believing that the odds are on his side. There\'s no such thing as luck if fate exists because it was already pre-deteremined and there\'s no such thing as luck if free-will exists because it wasn\'t your choice to make it just happened which is called coincidence, which brings up to my final question.
Does luck and coincidence exist if fate and free-will exists?
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Fate is luck. As in you are lucky to be fated a better life.
Free will leads to coincidences.
(We all need to see the movie Run Lola Run. This thread reminds me of that movie too much.)
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If you believe in \"fate\" as being predetermined by chaos, then luck must exist, since everything that happens is a random occurance. If you believe fate is created by some deity, then luck wouldn\'t exist in your envisioned universe...
In a free-will universe, luck would definatly still exist, since inanimate things that would determine if one is lucky or not obviously wouldn\'t have free-will. In a free-will universe, you\'ll have just as much luck in honest gambling as you would in a \"fated\" one.
Coincidence must exist in free will, since things are far more loosely connected in such a universe.
However, coincidence cannot exist in a fated universe, because everything is directly or indirectly related to each other thing.
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I had an interesting thought.
If your fate turns out to be better or more lively compared to an aborted fetus, whom never got a life to live, who has the right to make such a decision? And, if Im not mistaken, isn\'t that decision made possible by the free will of the higher powers or uncontrollable forces?
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I may be misunderstanding your meaning, Olig, but here goes...
If there is such a thing as fate, the fetus you mentioned would have been fated never to have lived.
I don\'t want to discuss wheter there is a \"higher power\", but I seriously doubt it. And if there was, I would say they would likely be bound by the same laws as we are, and thus their own \"free will\" would also be fated. That would be interesting, our own \"fate\" controlled by \"fated\" entities...
*shrugs*
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Then what fated our entities? Another higher entity fated to give that a fate? Lets face it, fate doesnt make logical sense.
Sorrry for the bad example. A better example would have been a grocery cart lady instead of an unborn fetus (Even though it was still alive inside the mother).
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Ah, I meant \"fate\" as in provided by physics. You obvliously meant fate as in provided by a deity of some sort, sorry for the misunderstanding there.
Fate by chaos is pretty logical, when you think about it...
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Originally posted by Grakrim
I don\'t want to discuss wheter there is a \"higher power\", but I seriously doubt it. And if there was, I would say they would likely be bound by the same laws as we are, and thus their own \"free will\" would also be fated. That would be interesting, our own \"fate\" controlled by \"fated\" entities...
*shrugs*
That would only be true if whatever higher power exists within the bounderies of our universe. What if there is some property of our universe or another that allows one to manipulate the other from afar? It\'s a very unclear subject, but there is no ruling out the existance or non-existance of a higher, conciense power.
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I think there is no way to prove either way. I think there is a predetermined fate, but in a way such as we know the past. If you think about it, when Atilla fought his wars, everything he did was unknown until he did it. Now, what he did is known in a set order making a sort of \'fate\' of the past. I don\'t believe fate controls your choices, however. You as a person control your personality and choices. So I guess you could say I believe in both but in different ways.
If God made people, and he knows who is and isn\'t going to heaven, why did he create us? And why create us so imperfectly? It doesn\'t make sense to me...(I don\'t believe in religion myself, though I am not opposed to it)
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Davis sez:
if whatever higher power exists within the bounderies of our universe.
There is a theorized universe of anti-matter that exists beyond our own, but its not proven. Its the only other \"thing\" i have heard of that exists beyond our universe. If a particle were to meet its anti-matter counterpart and touch it, both of them would explode. Anti-matter has been created in labs, but only reminants of its existance remained after ours consumed them.
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I\'v enr heard that one before... ever heard of the theory of multiple, bubble-like universes? That\'s actually the one I was going by. But like you said, it\'s a theory. Neither possibility can be ruled out yet.
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\"Physical concepts are free creations of the human mind, and are not, however it may seem, uniquely determined by the external world.\"
-- Albert Einstein
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Free will is only an oxymoron if you believe in fate. That is, if you believe everything in life is preordained; choice is just an illusion; someone or something wills you to do the things you do, it is not your choice. Free will would then be an oxymoron just like military intelligence, Microsoft Works, and peacekeeper missile.
If that\'s not what you believe, then free will is not an oxymoron. Perhaps, as someone mentioned, free will only exists on the small scale, but the bigger picture is controlled by fate. This would mean that the choices we make do not matter in the long run, as we will all end up in the same place.
Then there is the possibility that our will is truly free, and our future is not preordained. Every choice we make ripples out and effects our lives just as portrayed in the film The Butterfly Effect (great film by the way). Every time Ashton Kutcher went back in time and changed something, his present was greatly effected. Then again, maybe this is just the small scale and the rest of the world progressed exactly the same. No, not if the Terminator movies have anything to say about it. Killing important people should greatly effect the future. Though, if I remember correctly, they weren\'t able to change the future in the Terminator movies. It seemed to have been fated.
p.s. Luck is a term used to describe things that happen despite the fact that they have a low probability of happening. For example, you\'re lucky if you leave a casino with more money than you went in with.