PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: FreakTrap on April 27, 2004, 11:36:12 pm
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I was un sure where else to post this, and figured this would be the best place...
I have been watyching the development of the PlaneShift Community, for quite a long time, and have knoticed one thing sence nearly the begining... the Exact same website, and the un complete intro...
I just was wondering if you would like it if i were to finish the previous intro or to create a new one, as well as convert the entire site into a flash page.
If i were to do it, i could be able to edit the flash at any time to add new sections, and would be able to incorperate the current layout into the designe as well.
I would probaly be able to incorperate actionscripts to allow the flash to open txt files or whatever format you prefer, to read from files to allow you to easly update the news sections at any time.
I would be extreamly intrested in embarking upon this project, and am eager to help in the production of what has the potential to become one of the best MMORPG\'s online.....
Please Contact me at FreakTrap@aol.com
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The best way to ask is to go onto the public dev channel and ask there.
irc.freenode.net
#planeshift
I\'m sure a dev will respond here, but if not, you know where to go. :)
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Originally posted by FreakTrap
I was un sure where else to post this, and figured this would be the best place...
I have been watyching the development of the PlaneShift Community, for quite a long time, and have knoticed one thing sence nearly the begining... the Exact same website, and the un complete intro...
I just was wondering if you would like it if i were to finish the previous intro or to create a new one, as well as convert the entire site into a flash page.
Doing/finishing the intro would be great. I would not support an entire flash site though. I would rather stick with basic html/php.
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noooooooooo! noooooo flashy pages!!! :(\'
intro\'s ok, but doing whole pages in flash is just whack! ...[sarcasm]while we\'re at it, why not completely in SVG :P ...ooho, ooooh, or activex!?![/sarcasm]
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Originally posted by FreakTrap
as well as convert the entire site into a flash page.
I\'ll stop visiting the website at exactly that moment!
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Flash site would be bad for low end pc\'s, don\'t do it.
But it would sure be nice to see the webpage get completed.
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The problem is: You have to know what belongs on the pages. Once you have the content, making the pages is not the problem.
So if an \"outsider\" was to complete the website, he must either be provided with the texts or be able to get informed on what to put on the pages by those \"in charge\" of the content.
To the Flash-opposition: I\'m not the biggest fan of Flash either, but hey - here\'s someone offering his help, who is willing to contribute in the way he thinks fit. Why people seem to try scare him off with posts basically saying \"Flash, baaaaaaaaad - let be or me mad\" is beyond me. If the content is provided via database or text-files, a hybrid solution might be possible with just little more effort, so both Flash-freaks and Flash-haters can get their way - just some things to think about. ;)
I know no flash at all, but both html and php well enough to be of help. If any help on the webpage itself is at all wanted, I\'m volunteering as well. Just say so. (@FreakTrap: Not trying to compete with you btw. ;))
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ive done some emssing with flahs, and i could make the nav and stiff in flahs, but the content area could eb sotred in HTML docs, rhater than txt, the txt would take forever, and be un efficent, but if you dont like the flash idea, i coudl mess arround and make a new set of buttons for the layout... the Yellow Link\'s jsut dont look all that great, or mabey jsut a flash navbar... im jsut makeing som suggesitons, and af for the intro is someone could contact me with the original FLA file, i could finish it in a short time....
sorry for the spelling im really in a rush right now to get somehtign finished, and an idea for a nav bar.......
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http://host.deluxnetwork.com/tman/www/freaktrap/nav.html
i havent linked it all yet, but i did fic the issue with the border just dieing off, and this is about the same width as the old banner\'s table-cell width...
use the html page(it autosizes the swf), but the swf is here..
http://host.deluxnetwork.com/tman/www/freaktrap/nav.swf
linkings done...... someone leave some feedback?
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no offence. but, the origional html menu looks better, the yellow stands out. your buttons don\'t really have any coherency with the background they sit upon, they look more like buttons for a tech site.
you could try and play with the theme a little more. which is fantasy. one of the good things about flash is the ability to import other media into it. such as jpg\'s .png\'s and gif\'s. you don\'t have to do everything in vector format. experiment in photoshop with createing an actual \"interface\" and not just some buttons stuck onto the interface that already exists.
when your thinking about changeing an html website to a flash website you have to keep in mind that there has to be a bonified reason for doing it.
\"because it\'s flash\" isn\'t a good reason, you have to make it superior and play on flash\'s benefits.
also think about font choice aswell. flash has a tendency to \"blur\" fonts that aren\'t pixel fonts. this basically means that flash is very poor at aliasing.
you can get pixel fonts here: http://www.fontsforflash.com/ but these ones might be a bit too tech for this kinna site but it\'ll give you an idea of what i mean.
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I agree, comic sans isn\'t exactly the best web font.
I think further development should be focused on the intro/splash page.
As a web designer we are told not to waste the visitors time with a page that most people skip.
Perhaps if you keep the flash you could have something important there (such as news) for returning visitors.
As for a nav, if you can take advantage of the features of flash and it fits the fantasy theme and general look of the site (which looks good) then go for it.
Otherwise, maybe css can be used to style the nav a little more.
it may be attributes away for a completely new look.
An all flash site is a bad idea unless you provide visitors with an alternative. Then again, you must design for the target audience and since this is a rather demanding game, we might assume that everyone visiting has high-end flash-enabled pcs. Some advantages of html are that it is searchable, indexable, does not require flash, and is bookmarkable. Flash should be used sparingly.
I would really like to see something valuable on the first page of the site, because returning visitors _really_ get tired of the intro (especially since its uncompleted :))
Just my comments (no harm intended). And good luck.
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IMHO making a whole page in flash is a bad idea if you have more than this |__| much info to put in. Its harder to navigate, dunno, but i have seen 2 flash pages that i like so far.
Respect dial-up! Not everyone has broad-band!
If you dont like thouse yellow links make a button(pic) that looks better, and i like the current menu better than your ver. IMHO html/php/css is enough.
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i changed it,and it looks beter.....
if you want a yellow font, i can do that, but i dont think this looks too bad.....
http://host.deluxnetwork.com/tman/www/freaktrap/nav.html
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I don\'t think the site should have any flash besides the intro.
Why have flash nav? To make the site look better?
Why would the site have to look better? Is it a game that the PS Team are working on, or a website?
I think that the site is great the way it is.
It\'s built to be informative, easy to navigate, and simple. It achieves all these things.
I\'m not saying the site should have plain background, text, and everything, but it shouldn\'t be fancy either.
The navigation looks uninspiring, but why should it be any more than that?
The site might need to be changed a bit for CB, but it should be more or less the same.
The intro, however, would probebly have to be changed completely... Right now it got the same problem that the context of the site got. It tells you about things that PS don\'t have.
When CB is out, I think that the guides, faqs, etc, should talk only about what PS is in CB. Another section could detail about what it\'ll have in the future, but why confuse newbies and make them belive that they can fight?
The intro should be about the present too, with a few notes about the future.
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I dont know why evryone is so anti flash...
what is it thet people dislinke so much about flash?? its a great web develoment tool, not jsut for intro;s or layouts,. but for content to be worked into html pages...
you say you dont want to make a \'fancy\' nav bar, why not??
Why have flash nav? To make the site look better?
Why would the site have to look better? Is it a game that the PS Team are working on, or a website?
Exactly why you should have flash... who wants to look at a page that dose nothing? mabey you do, but i know i wouldnt enjoy it.... besides, who said the PS team had to all turn into web developing zombies? they are workign on the game, i jsut made a nav bar and offered a few ideas to promote the community, with a better looking web site. thats why you would want the site to look better, people look at the page after 3 years like i did a few days ago, and seeing that nothing has changed. i allmost left after i saw the in complete intro ( has stayed the same for over a year!) and the exact same layout from 15 million months ago! im just trying to shape up the site, the site is peoples portal to the communit, and how do you expect the community to grow if people think that its the same thing happening as it was 2 months before when they checked in??
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FreakTrap I\'d suggest logging into the #planeshift on irc.freenode.net server to talk to the devs there about completing the intro and getting a bit of flash on the site.
I personally wouldn\'t mind some flash.
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ok, here is IMO a very good reason why there should be no flash navigation, only intro
PlaneShift is cross-platform, needless to say some browsers on some platforms cannot use the flash plugin. Especially I\'m here refering to only-text-based browsers like lynx and links, which are usually very popular with coders. What does flash-navigation mean for a lynx-user? simple: he can\'t navigate through the page ...which is pretty much a pity, don\'t you think?
I\'m not saying that we should also ban the flash intro ...quite the oposite - i\'d love to see that intro finished off and updated ...but the thing is: you can skip the intro, but you can\'t skip navigation.
so my suggestion is:
don\'t bother with the flash nav, but rather concentrate on making the intro better.
p.s. most of the time i use mozilla and konqueror in my linux and have no problems with flash ...but still I like keeping pages w3c valid and lynx-compatible (alongside other browsers, of course)
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Originally posted by FreakTrap
Why have flash nav? To make the site look better?
Why would the site have to look better? Is it a game that the PS Team are working on, or a website?
Exactly why you should have flash... who wants to look at a page that dose nothing? mabey you do, but i know i wouldnt enjoy it....
Why does a page have to do anything? A site for a game is made to be informative, to tell you about the game, and that\'s it. The fun should be in playing the game, not the site.
besides, who said the PS team had to all turn into web developing zombies? they are workign on the game
I didn\'t say they should go into web-developing-zombies. I said that they\'re making a game, not a web site, wich means the game should be cool, not the site.
thats why you would want the site to look better, people look at the page after 3 years like i did a few days ago, and seeing that nothing has changed.
No one looks at the site. They look at the content.
People check the news every once in a while, go to the forums, and that\'s it. No one cares about the site, no one tries to see if it was changed.
They don\'t care about the site not because it looks boring, but because they really don\'t give a damn. By putting fancy stuff that takes a long time to load and aren\'t compatible with as many browsers as possible you won\'t make people love the site and spend more time in it (actually, they will, because they\'ll have to load the nav before they\'ll be able to do anything. but they won\'t stay there more because they want to), only more frustrated at it.
i allmost left after i saw the in complete intro ( has stayed the same for over a year!) and the exact same layout from 15 million months ago!
I agree that they shouldn\'t have used an intro if it\'s not complete (what\'s the point?), but why do you expect the site to change? And you say that I\'m trying to make them web-developing-zombies...
The site does what it should do, why change it? To attract people that play a game because it\'s site is \'kewl\'? This isn\'t the devs\' focus group AFAIK.
the site is peoples portal to the communit, and how do you expect the community to grow if people think that its the same thing happening as it was 2 months before when they checked in??
Right, a site is the portal to the community. But if someone came to the community, liked it, and stayed, I doubt he\'ll leave in two months just because the site haven\'t changed.
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ok, you say a game dosent need a good website, yet look at any great game that has 10k+ members, and tell me they dont have a great looking website... A website is ment to deliver information in an enjoyable menner, not like opening a book and reading black and white text, but to be something that looks appealing to the readers eyes. A game isant nessicarly made by its website, but a website is allmost alyas the first impression, and evryone knows first impressions are alyas the most importiant of knowing someone..
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the site is peoples portal to the communit, and how do you expect the community to grow if people think that its the same thing happening as it was 2 months before when they checked in??
Right, a site is the portal to the community. But if someone came to the community, liked it, and stayed, I doubt he\'ll leave in two months just because the site haven\'t changed.
what im sayign is for people who the first time around didnt really get too into the game, but for them to one day think back, and reber this game, and decide to visit the site again, he/she would probally be more likely to look around at a new layout, even if it had the exact same content... i know you guys are worried about people who use browsers that dont support flash, and thats understandable, and can be accomidated for, yet im here to provide options for developent. im pretty good with action scriptiong and just wanted to try to make this page a little better.
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Look, I won\'t bother making a post like my previous one again, because you obviously don\'t get it. So I\'ll just get to the point.
* The nav shouldn\'t be changed. Because it does what it should do in the best possible way. Anything more than that would contredict the next two points.
* The site shouldn\'t have anything that makes it more cumbersome to load than it is now. It\'s not adding anything good, only frustration.
* There shouldn\'t be any uneeded annoying features (yes, javascripts and flash are uneeded annoying features). It\'s not adding anything besides incompatibility.
* The site is about the game, not the game about the site. This means that the site is there to deliver information about the game, so gamers and developers will join. The site is informative (and FreakTrap, informative != notepad-like site) it\'s use is not to show that PS supporters can code in javascript, flash, or whatever.
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Well...Here\'s a suggestion...Why not have a flash site and an HTML site?
The user could be given the choice on the main page.
I\'m no web developer but I do not think this would be too hard to mantain, would it?
And honestly, the guy\'s just trying to help, no need to be so hostile.
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Maintaining two separate sites would be impossible. Therefore, all the content would have to be moved to one data source, such as a database.
Right now, they use simple php/html/css which works fairly well. There isn\'t a great deal of content to warrant storage in a database.
I\'m not trying to criticize FreakTrap, but I don\'t think many of us would like an all-flash site and some, even a site with just a flash nav.
Issues with a flash nav have already been pointed out.
What I would like to see (mentioned earlier) is something useful on the first page of the site.
Also, a quick link to the forums wouldn\'t be a bad idea either.
Have a word with the devs on IRC to see what they think.
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Nuculear: are you telling me you would rather have a great game community and a page that looks like crap and is 90% text, or a great graphical, extreamly imformitive page? adding flash to a page dosent take from the content, and 98% of browsers are flash and javascript compatible... the step from html and css to javascripting, asp, php, and flash is the diffrence between enjoying a website and not enjoying one... let me take back my previous statement abour an entire flash page, beacuse yes, theyre are the obvious downfalls of it.. yet to rather have a poor lookign page over a great looking and enjoyable page, is a stupid thing to beleive... i see your points, yet if i could wait 3 extra seconds the first time i viewed a site, not a page, beacuse if you wont need to load for evry page, and have it have a great interface, i would go for it.. and that navbar was a 1.somethign second loadtime on a 28.8, and if you dont have a browser that can support flash, i pity you...
The site is about the game, not the game about the site.
........ if you went to a website, with the worst interfase you had ever seen, and decided to not play the game beacuse you felt the website sucked so much the game would probally suck too, then the game turns out being one of the greatest mmo\'s ever, wouldnt you feel shitty? and if you had a great gameing community wouldnt you feel shitty if people didn\'t play your game beacuse your website wasnt that great? you may not think these are revelent points, yet in today\'s online society, haveing a good website is evrything. If someone if oging to come to this community, the first thing to be impressed opun them is the website, is it not? proove me wrong? so how could a site with asp and javascripts, in today\'s society with allmost evryone using either IE, netscape, or a mozilla browser, how could such a site hurt the game?? what rock have you been living under where you can believe that flash and javascripts could actually hurt a site? i see your points, how the loadtime would be affected, yet i dont see how likeing the way a page looks could make it more cumbersome.. features like flash and javascripts arent un neaded in todays world, its a competitive world where evryone wants to look better than evryone else, and extra features on a website are what people like. so how can you oppose the opinions of millions of people?
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You don\'t need flash to have a great looking page.
You can have flash for the introduction, but beyond that, as previously mentioned, you can use style sheets + html + neat graphics + neat design and you\'ll have a magnificant site.
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ok, first i\'ll take my toll on being flamed a bit later
- 98% browsers support flash?!? ...yea, right ...where do you live!?!
- under which rock i live, that i can\'t use flash from time to time? hmmm... as i said, i\'m pretty sure quite a few people use lynx and links for browsing, when they\'re doing something else, and just want to read though the page, not
- plus, the flash support\'s still buggy under mac and linux (not to mention that there\'s none for other platforms!) ...have you never seen a mozilla break because of flash?
- [evil]why not make the page in gool ol\' w3c-valid SVG ...mwahahahah[/evil]
and now i\'ll try to be a bit more constructive
look, i like the page layout and all as it is ...and i\'m pretty sure i\'m not the only one, i definetly agree that the page could be a bit more complete, with new renders, sketches, info, setting and player guilde pages ...yea, a direct link to the forums would also be nice ...if it\'s not like this, because of an ingenious plan to leave most flamers out.
also i would like to see the flash intro be updated and evolve ...but that\'s about it what i\'d like to see from flash.
a few links to show you what can be done WITHOUT flash:
http://www.csszengarden.com (very good place to learn CSS from samples)
http://www.blender3d.org (note the menu!)
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I dont know why evryone is so anti flash...
i\'m not anti flash at all, in fact i work as a web designer and specialise in flash, i am also in my final year of an IT degree that involves web development.
however, the current site is good, it doesn\'t need anything else. the nav is simple and easy to use. it wears it\'s theme well and it\'s clean. the thing about flash is that it can be used to great effect in the right circumstances. however, flash for the sake of flash is unecisarry.
one of the other things about flash is it has poor accesability. it can\'t be read by text readers, you can\'t have alt tags for imageless veiwing, it has a big problem when it comes to search engines as the only \"hooks\" it can offer them are meta tags from the html document that the flash site sits on.
if done wrong flash can look aweful if not worse than poorly done html as the development interface has few constraints about what can and can\'t be done in regards to placement, etc...
personally i love flash, because of some of the things that can be created with it. but the menu system you created, i.e. 2 state rollovers could quite easily have been done in HTML. i\'m not trying to bash your work i\'m just stateing facts.
oh and hook... here (http://www.macromedia.com/software/player_census/flashplayer/) is a link to the macromedia site where they have Statistics regarding browser flash support. quite beliveable when you think that flash player has been shipped with most windows and apple o/s\'s for the last few years.
nice links by the way. seen zengarden b4 but not the blender site.
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discochimp, i agree with all your post ...but i still just can\'t believe the the bit about those 98%, put it however you want, it\'s a pretty shifty number
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Flash can be nice, but I also prefer other dynamic html types of pages.
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fair play :) i was supprised when i was told about it (in a lecture incedentally) so i had to check it out myself.
oh yeah, welcome to the EU. not sure how good a deal you guys are getting though.