PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: kronon on May 01, 2004, 09:26:41 am
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Sorry Venge, but I won\'t continue programming for the game. Main points are:
-Bad program structure (makes game slow and programming nearly imposible)
-Bad, but mostly, no documentation
-No thought truh UML diagram, looks like things are added when they are thought up
-NO UML diagram at all
-The crystal space, isn\'t as good as people get to beleave. A good friend of mine has taken a look at the source code (having experiance with other 3d engines) and has come to the conclusion that the engine is a monster (not in performance, but in the fact that it\'s an nightmare).But the engine whas developed for software render, so it could be posible that the reason lies there. I could give examples, but don\'t want to diss people, nor the engine.
-The first time I had an asignment and I whas late, I got the reply that it whasn\'t a problem and could send it any time a year( or next year if I wanted). That made me wonder how other programmers dealt with this.
-In fact people rather have me handing in my stuff 2 years later, than answer all my question (a lot of them) that I have because there is no documentation nor UML diagram\'s.
That whas prety much it.
I\'ll probably be playing the next version when I comes out. But I think that will be more of a \"IF it comes out\"
Bye all see you in the next release(if it ever comes)
P.S. Not trying to diss any one or any thing, just stating the facts and the don\'t look pink painted(translated dutch saing, for that all looks very good and the don\'t changes it ofcourse into that it doesn\'t).
P.S.S. Take an other 3d engine and start from scratch, design an flexible, well thought up program and the programming goes like butter through cake. Complex program\'s ,causing delay are nonsence, if the documentation and the program external functions are good, then you wouldn\'t even notice any \"delays\".
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Obviously, i can\'t comment all the things concerning Planeshift, but i may have a comment about CrystalSpace.
You really think a 3D engine can be rewritten from scratch so quickly and easily? Yes, CrystalSpace is a monster. With a lot of modules, features ... But it is still the best or one of the best (Ogre?) open source 3d engine. And i think you have missed the strongest point of CrystalSpace since i never saw you there: a #crystalspace chan on freenode where maintainers and devs are always ready to help and explain the most obscure feature.
About planeshift, i\'ll try a comment. I have looked _really_ fast at the code source in the spell manager (wonder why.... :P) and i must say i have never seen code so self-explanory and clean. I had answers to my questions about how magic should work in about 20 minutes. So bad program structure? I know that the spell manager is probably not the most complex part of the code, but...
(i\'m not sure i\'m really the best suited to write this ;))
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I think the entire community will be saddened to see a dev go... not only because it means delays to releases, but because it means that part of the soul of this game has left. I KNOW I\'m not qualified to speak about how the coding is done or the useability of CS, but I think I speak for the entire community when I say that we\'re sorry to see you leaving. Thank you, Kronon, for the work that you\'ve done for CB and the PS community. May you find more joy and fufilment in your future coding endevors, and hopefully we\'ll still see you around the boards and in CB when, or as you say, if, it comes out.
/me bows deeply and respectfully
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1) he doesn\'t have WTB member status
2) from what I heard he didn\'t write even one line of code for PS :P
some delays I say ;)
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I have confidence that the devs know what they\'re doing - the design doesn\'t seem to be totally chaotic, and CrystalSpace (despite it\'s bigness) is a very flexible engine- but all these things take time and talent. So does documentation - what better way to learn a project than by documenting it?
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Originally posted by kronon
Sorry Venge, but I won\'t continue programming for the game. Main points are:
-Bad program structure (makes game slow and programming nearly imposible)
I won\'t judge program structure here, but possible slowness is matter of CS or matter of bad usage of CS from our side, not program structure. Regarding the impossibility to program, that\'s just funny. It seems to be possible for other people.
-Bad, but mostly, no documentation
-NO UML diagram at all
The documentation could certainly be improved (at least add comments to each method in classes) but I didn\'t notice that people have big problems to figure out stuff.
-No thought truh UML diagram, looks like things are added when they are thought up
/me agrees
I\'ll probably be playing the next version when I comes out. But I think that will be more of a \"IF it comes out\"
Bye all see you in the next release(if it ever comes)
Lol, now you show how little clue you have.
Complex program\'s ,causing delay are nonsence, if the documentation and the program external functions are good, then you wouldn\'t even notice any \"delays\".
Bullshit. Most software projects are delayed.
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Originally posted by Cyrandir
I think the entire community will be saddened to see a dev go... not only because it means delays to releases, but because it means that part of the soul of this game has left. I KNOW I\'m not qualified to speak about how the coding is done or the useability of CS, but I think I speak for the entire community when I say that we\'re sorry to see you leaving. Thank you, Kronon, for the work that you\'ve done for CB and the PS community. May you find more joy and fufilment in your future coding endevors, and hopefully we\'ll still see you around the boards and in CB when, or as you say, if, it comes out.
/me bows deeply and respectfully
No you are mistaken, he was not a dev, he was a \"prospect\" - person that is given test tasks to see if he can be admitted to the team.
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Originally posted by tangerine
Bullshit. Most software projects are delayed.
s/Most/All/ :D But it\'s true Planeshift beat records :P
Not really because the delay is long, but because 15 days before the expected release, the dev team still hoped to success. (or at least, this is what they said) :P
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Originally posted by elscouta
But it\'s true Planeshift beat records :P
Not really because the delay is long, but because 15 days before the expected release, the dev team still hoped to success. (or at least, this is what they said) :P
*cough* Duke Nukem Forever *cough*
OT
Ok, so he wasn\'t a WTB member, and wasn\'t a dev, but I think we can say that we\'re sorry to see that someone that could help in the future won\'t do that.
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Ok, so he wasn\'t a WTB member, and wasn\'t a dev, but I think we can say that we\'re sorry to see that someone that could help in the future won\'t do that.
If you cried for every prospect that leaves, you would drown in tears. There are way too many people that want to join but leave very soon for whatever reason. Only small fraction stays longer.
Let me cite from The Interview:
\"But in such a team the main issue is stability and the effort required to handle new prospects. We have quite a good process for handling new people, but it happens really too often that someone decides to join and then leaves after we spent hours explaining how and what he has to do. That kind of attitude really drains a lot of time from us and delivers nothing.\"
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Originally posted by tangerine
Ok, so he wasn\'t a WTB member, and wasn\'t a dev, but I think we can say that we\'re sorry to see that someone that could help in the future won\'t do that.
If you cried for every prospect that leaves, you would drown in tears.
Of course, but we can have a general sadness without tears.
Originally posted by tangerine
Only small fraction stays longer.
Yeah, I\'m sure it\'s hard to do such a game as volunteers. Gotta have alot of amition, and I guess that this guy just didn\'t had enough of it.
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Originally posted by kronon
-Bad program structure (makes game slow and programming nearly imposible)
-The crystal space, isn\'t as good as people get to beleave. A good friend of mine has taken a look at the source code (having experiance with other 3d engines) and has come to the conclusion that the engine is a monster (not in performance, but in the fact that it\'s an nightmare).But the engine whas developed for software render, so it could be posible that the reason lies there. I could give examples, but don\'t want to diss people, nor the engine.
I agree completely with the both facts above. Maintenance of CS and programming with it is not after the today\'s demands. Small and flexible classes/templates, common usable algorithm and a clean design are the goals for a program that will fit the needs of Engine-Users.
It was the fact in the article Free MMOG Planeshift breaks 100k Players! (http://www.warcry.com/scripts/news/view_news.phtml?site=15&id=11226) where I get the sentence: \"PlaneShift comprises more than 800,000 lines of code even at this early stage, including the exceptional work done on the 3d engine by the Crystal Space team.\"
I thought I could catch the monster... but I am either a bad programmer, who could not fit all needed libs, extras, headers and configuration together or I had the wrong teacher. But in my company I get my money for develop SMALL function, to keep the code base clearly-presented and to document, design and discuss for 4/5 of the working time... only the last 1/5 to implement. If the target is to make the biggest LOC-thingy... you have my respect, but my boss would kicked me as fast as he can if I work in such a manner.
I am sorry, that I am such a helpless person, because the idea of PS in general is a wunderfull thing.
It would be nice to program in such a motivated and knowledged team, which had already - questionless - procuded astonished work.
br, Winterheaven.
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If you think that those 800.000 LOC are one huge main() function, then you are mistaken ;) Seriously, how is number of lines of code related to small and flexible functions and classes ? Who said that the target of CS is to make LOC record ? You simply made this nonsense up. I pretty much doubt that people working in their free time would want to waste it with such immense sillyness. I am sorry but it seems to me that you both are trying to blame your troubles on PS/CS. Many other people succeeded to work with both. And your quote of Kronon is half claims that I am not able to comment on, and half just bullshit.
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Just fyi, Kronon was one of at least 70 prospects who have contacted me about helping with the engine team and who did nothing after that. It is not unusual at all for someone to volunteer and then discover that PS/CEL/CS/Cal3D is much bigger and more complex than they can handle--and quit. At least the other 65 or so people who have been overwhelmed have not come back 6 months after giving up and made this kind of dramatic post about how our code sucks. Get over it man...there is nothing wrong with the code. It is your skills that need to improve if you are ever to contribute.
-NO UML diagram at all
This part of the post made me laugh. :-) PS, CEL, CS, and Cal3D together must be over 5000 classes. Creating a UML diagram of that would take an entire city block, and wouldn\'t help anyone, least of all Kronon.
The first time I had an asignment and I whas late, I got the reply that it whasn\'t a problem and could send it any time a year( or next year if I wanted). That made me wonder how other programmers dealt with this.
-In fact people rather have me handing in my stuff 2 years later, than answer all my question (a lot of them) that I have because there is no documentation nor UML diagram\'s.
The reason I said it wasn\'t a problem is because I know the probability of a prospect being successful with their task is about 1:10. It isn\'t a problem because if you don\'t get it done in a timely manner, it will simply be assigned to someone else and covered elsewhere.
To apply on September 20th, 2003, get nothing accomplished, then announce to the world that you are quitting on Apr 30th is just very odd... Oh well.
- Venge
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In a sense, prospect programmers *can* blame their troubles on PS/CS - many people who are familiar with some programming language find that they\'re in a whole different world once you have a large project to work with. Suddenly it\'s a whole lot less clear than a school software engineering project. CrystalSpace takes a while to get familiar with, but many of the design decisions make a lot of sense once you see the reasoning behind them. Until then, you\'re faced with what seems like a mountainous learning curve to someone who doesn\'t have a lot of patience and dedication, as well as talent.
I know I have avoided offering my efforts as a prospect because I have a proven history of not doing stuff - I dabble in Planeshift and Crystalspace (as well as VOS) but without the serious time committment that I know would be required.
That said, is there much documentation? If not, I would suggest that anyone asking for a trial be given a chunk of documentation to write :)
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people really aught to think before they even offer to help... I\'ve wanted to help with the project since I heard about it, but I don\'t have any tech skills whatsoever, I\'m an art student and a typist. If I knew code at all, I\'d make sure I knew something about Cspace before I even offered my service. And even then I wouldn\'t retract my offer if I couldn\'t do it, I\'d ask for help and advice. otherwise I would have wasted the time of the devs and not contributed at all.
Please, don\'t waste the programmers time. everyone is eagerly awaiting the release of CB. Don\'t offer your services if you aren\'t willing to dedicate time and effort toward the project
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A quick grep shows me in PS:
7378 comments starting with //
2145 comments starting with /*
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9523 total comments in PS code
Crystal Space:
44768 comments starting with //
49447 comments starting with /*
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94225 total comments
If you think the code doesn\'t have enough comments, you could be right in certain areas, but in general the developers are not ignoring comments. It is just a very complex system. Guess what? These games aren\'t easy to write. :-)
- Venge
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Hey Venge... so far for my n00b programing, i only used \"//\" coments... what are \"/*\" coments suposed to do? Or are they the same thing?
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Originally posted by Vengeance
-NO UML diagram at all
This part of the post made me laugh. :-) PS, CEL, CS, and Cal3D together must be over 5000 classes. Creating a UML diagram of that would take an entire city block, and wouldn\'t help anyone, least of all Kronon.
Venge, after reading this comment of you i couldnt help get worried about the way the program is created. If you think that UML or at least some design diagrams are unnesecary then i doubt very much about the quality of the code.
Your right that there should be no diagram for every minor detail but there should be designs to help new programmers understand the structure and to have the program be well developed as well. Parts of the program can be designed by the groups that are supposed to work on it anyway. When working on a part of the code someone only has to understand the global and specific designs for that part.
About telling the programmers that they shouldnt care about it, perhaps you should put more pressure on them else they might go too easy and slow development.
Not that i want to criticize your work (which i admire) but your comments make me worry somewhat and i hope im wrong or that you have a more critical view of the development than you appear to have to me.
BTW i would love to help program if i didnt know that im way too lazy to complete an assigment.
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now that I\'m thinking about it, this is an awfully convenient place for me to ask:
is there a website out there where I could learn some code? Particularly someplace where I could learn something that might let me help with the project?
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Originally posted by RussianVodka
Hey Venge... so far for my n00b programing, i only used \"//\" coments... what are \"/*\" coments suposed to do? Or are they the same thing?
/* is comment of C language and can be used for multi-line comments
// is available in C++ only and can be used for single-line comments only
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Originally posted by tygerwilde
is there a website out there where I could learn some code? Particularly someplace where I could learn something that might let me help with the project?
Go to your local library and borrow a book about programming. Once you get the hang of that, learn from other programs and start writing your own, and maybe in a year or two you might be able to start contributing. :)
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Originally posted by tygerwilde
now that I\'m thinking about it, this is an awfully convenient place for me to ask:
is there a website out there where I could learn some code? Particularly someplace where I could learn something that might let me help with the project?
Personaly I started to program at the age of 9.
Visual Basic was the programming language then.
Overtime I began to write more advance programs and I told myself:
\"Learn C++ and let VB go! Never launch the editor for VB again!\"
Now (5 years later) I\'m very into C++ and like it very much, though I have still things to learn, but I\'m quite a fast learner.
Still, I have use for my old VB knowedges, VB is good at doing programs very fast, small stuff.
That\'s my history, follow it or go your own way.
Hope to see you in the future :)
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Hmm so your only 14 Androgos?
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Yes he is.
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*blushes*
well, I sorta have a history at the library
(damn Peirs Anthony books eight years overdue...)
and yes, they still have my records, last I heard I owed them $936 american.
what I\'m asking is if there\'s any good online resources. something that\'s as easy to understand as htmlmonkey is, but dealing with code. I\'ve been told C++ is the best place to start. But I really don\'t have any idea where to find online courses for it, or if they exist.
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/me tries to cry; realises he has sewn his tear-ducts up and bloats his face instead.
Oh well.......... ;)
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www.codeproject.com (http://www.codeproject.com)
www.cprogramming.com (http://www.cprogramming.com)
www.cplusplus.com (http://www.cplusplus.com)
i tried to learn C++ and well i fell asleep :(
but i enjoy modeling/mapping even more (i think it\'s more fun)
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I personally learnt Pascal programming a couple of months ago for a school project (making a hangman game, I use ASCII for pictures 8o).
I started learning C++ and then had to stop for these exams. I still like the idea of object-orientated programming though, sounds handy.
I\'ll continue learning...later.
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thanx for those, I\'m gonna look at those for a while
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Isn\'t it hard to work with so much developers? I mean, I just started programming in C++, but how are you going to do that? I mean, I added something to the script, saved it but at the same moment another one added his part, with his additions. Than MY added things won\'t be on it!
What I want to say, how does that work, a team with more programmers?
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Each person does a certain thing.
While you\'re working on that, another person is working on this, so you\'re not disturbing each other\'s work
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ow...
and at the end 1 pogrammer will adds all small parts to one.
thanks for your explainment!
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they also go over the code for bug checking etc so that each code is not disturbing another.
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Originally posted by tangerine
Originally posted by RussianVodka
Hey Venge... so far for my n00b programing, i only used \"//\" coments... what are \"/*\" coments suposed to do? Or are they the same thing?
/* is comment of C language and can be used for multi-line comments
// is available in C++ only and can be used for single-line comments only
Just to not confuse the guy, /* */ is used for multi-line commenting. You must close the comment tag.
Eg.
//My comment
/*
My comment
Brief desription or whatever I want here
*/
There are a few issues I have found working with C++ where I want to quickly comment out a huge chunk of code for debugging, inside the chunk however is another multi-line comment, it doesn\'t work too well for me...
I started C++ through a book, really basic:
A guide to Programming C++
http://www.lvp.com
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heh, maybe I should check the for dummies series, that would surely be my level :p
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Originally posted by Altharion
i tried to learn C++ and well i fell asleep :(
LOL!
Right now.... I have two books. I\'ve had them for say a month and a half. Still not done em. Even if I do finish them, I probably won\'t have enough knowledge and experience to help out the team.
But, just so I can get a thumbs up or a thumbs down on the book:
Would you consider SAMS: Learn C++ in 21 days a good one? (although I think its impossible to go through the book in 21 days :( ).
And, out of curiousity, what is the main difference between C++ and C#? I thought C# was the new version of C++... but I don\'t really know that much about programming, yet.
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Originally posted by Toadhead
Isn\'t it hard to work with so much developers? I mean, I just started programming in C++, but how are you going to do that? I mean, I added something to the script, saved it but at the same moment another one added his part, with his additions. Than MY added things won\'t be on it!
What I want to say, how does that work, a team with more programmers?
That\'s what the CVS (Concurrent Versions System) is for.
If one devs is \"commiting\" at the very same movement, it won\'t commit it.
If one devs has commited like 1 min before you, it won\'t commit until you update (it will merge your changes with the new ones)
Very good system actually
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Originally posted by Levski
Would you consider SAMS: Learn C++ in 21 days a good one? (although I think its impossible to go through the book in 21 days :( ).
I have that book too.. Really, that\'s my only one.
Now I\'m not saying this is all you need, but a good push in the right direction
Originally posted by Levski
And, out of curiousity, what is the main difference between C++ and C#? I thought C# was the new version of C++... but I don\'t really know that much about programming, yet.
C# is Microsoft\'s way to say \"We thing we can improve something and make everybody use it and switch to Windows\"
Short, it\'s Microsoft\'s work. Do I have to say that C# isn\'t cross-platform?
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Oh ok, thanks!
So basically, C++ isn\'t in any way in danger of extinction because of C#. That\'s good.
Btw, did you just learn it from the book, or did you have a teacher as well? If from the book, how long did it take you? \'Cuz I\'m well past the 21 days..
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Androgos didn\'t learn it from a teacher.
php, c and java are good ways to start because of the similarity.
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Syntax is shared between a lot of languages but C++ coding techniques varies a lot from C and php ones.
Usually, C++ books teach both C syntax and C++ syntax, skipping parts of C that are not required for C++. I don\'t think it\'s really required to learn to use char* , strdup, malloc, free and other weird C stuff before learning C++. Later, when you need to understand the internals of std::string, yes. But not when you begin.
So my advice: If you have somewhat of a logical mind, go directly to C++ and don\'t care about other languages (if this is the language you want to learn)
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First of all, I would like to say I didn\'t think, this post would make so many people react, I\'m now in the process of reading it all and I hope that planeshift won\'t get pushed into an negative light, I hope I have posted constructive critesisme and not distructive critesisme.
to elscouta: I don\'t say planeshift has to get another engine, that would mean they have to start from scratch, no one like that, but I must also say that it\'s a common practise, IExplore is in the process of total rebuilding because it has no more expansions base for the new funtions microsoft has thought up. Also I would like to ask you to program a peace of the game from scratch, let\'s say the console highliter configuration windows, have fun.
to Cyrandir: thanks for your post, I won\'t ask you to bow for me (although maybe I should change my mind;)), but it makes me a bit sad to make this dissision.
to Draklar: You have dust in your ears my friend, look at the changelog more closely, it clearly states I have made the advisor part of the game.
to tangerine: The bad structure, isn\'t realy planeshifts fault I know. But the project tends to get a bit messy because function are half built in cs and the other half in ps. Also, I don\'t state bullshit, because most program\'s aren\'t realy thought truh. Most of the slowness of the games is because of not optimising the source code (is also not thinking things truh) or a bad layout (or lack of it) from the program.
p.s. I haven\'t been a dev, that\'s truh, still I have bug fixed some stuff and added some stuff :) (not that I need aknowlegment or something)
to SaintNuclear: I\'m happely to inform you that when documentations are made and some kind of UML\'is thing is made (it doesn\'t have to be an uml but something comparable) I\'ll give it another shot
to Winterheaven: where do you work, I want in;)
P.S. Couldn\'t agree more with you
to tangerine: Hey be nice or wait until you period is over.
to Vengeance: In other words the large quit ratio you give us says more than I could to get my satement, people quit because it\'s to hard. Why is it to hard? [instruction] follow the clues in my first post[/instruction]. And so agreing with my statement, thnx Venge.
Laugh as much as you want. The class TOTAL is much lower. And it looks like you don\'t know so much about UML\'s because you put ONE project into ONE UML. Thank you.
Venge, you very well know, that that whas when I had my first try at that part of the source code, you wanted to try it again later. In the mean time I did other things for the project.
to dfryer: All the documentation is the comments in the source code, have fun.
to tygerwilde: I\'m one of the best programmer\'s in my class (now you won\'t hear me say the best:P)
to Venge: and what is in the comments most of the time.... (for the people that don\'t know, I\'ll tell that it isn\'t much, at least most of the time nothing helpfull)
to RussianVodka: /* blaat */ comments out blaat, so this wat you can span multiple lines
to Ionas: it all leads to large source codes, how big is the source code today?
to tygerwilde: the site has been upgrade since last time I checked, but here it is the planeshift documentation http://planeshift.sourceforge.net/wiki/ you can also get doxygen documentation.
Thank god this topic hasn\'t gone off topic.
P.S. I probably won\'t reply any more so bye.
P.S.S. No hard fealings from this side.
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Originally posted by kronon
to Ionas: it all leads to large source codes, how big is the source code today?
Ehhm, i never said anything about large codes... I know very well that programs like this do have a lot of LOCs. Maybe you confused my comment whith that of someone else.
My post was a reply to venge since it gave me the impression that the project might be handled not as well as i hoped.
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Originally posted by kronon
to elscouta: I don\'t say planeshift has to get another engine, that would mean they have to start from scratch, no one like that, but I must also say that it\'s a common practise, IExplore is in the process of total rebuilding because it has no more expansions base for the new funtions microsoft has thought up. Also I would like to ask you to program a peace of the game from scratch, let\'s say the console highliter configuration windows, have fun.
i don\'t understand anything at all... Some thoughts throw in, even if they are completely unaccurate at what you said: There\'s nothing more easy to write a new module from scratch and link it to the other modules. There\'s nothing harder to re-write a module from scratch and maintain compatibility with the other modules.
to Draklar: You have dust in your ears my friend, look at the changelog more closely, it clearly states I have made the advisor part of the game.
:rolleyes:
But the project tends to get a bit messy because function are half built in cs and the other half in ps.
Partly agree... For example the iObject system and CS_QUERY_INTERFACE stuff to attach your data to cs meshes is not really nice. Although, a lot of CS functions are ok.
to Winterheaven: where do you work, I want in;)
P.S. Couldn\'t agree more with you
Game companies can afford paying maintainers that don\'t code. Free projects can\'t.
Laugh as much as you want. The class TOTAL is much lower.
I count 2096 classes in CS and 601 in PS with find . -name \'*.h\' -print | xargs cat | grep \"^};\" | wc -l. (not sure this is 100% accurate, but it\'s a good estimation imho).
If you consider only CS interfaces, the total get a bit lower. Still too much.
to dfryer: All the documentation is the comments in the source code, have fun.
It seems you have heard of doxygen, so why do you want other types of docs?
And if you want a list of classes, here is it.
http://crystal.sourceforge.net/docs/online/api/
to tygerwilde: I\'m one of the best programmer\'s in my class (now you won\'t hear me say the best:P)
What grade? :rolleyes:
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to tygerwilde: I\'m one of the best programmer\'s in my class
you know, whenever I see something like that, it just makes me think \"that is almost the most ignorant thing someone can say\" yet someone always comes along a few weeks later with something even worse...
I have to ask along the same lines as elscouta, what is your class? class of 2014?
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2014???? That would make him....
hmm..
in 2nd grade!
to tangerine: Hey be nice or wait until you period is over.
I can see that you would have worked so well with the team.
to Venge: and what is in the comments most of the time.... (for the people that don\'t know, I\'ll tell that it isn\'t much, at least most of the time nothing helpfull)
And you\'ve looked at all the thousands of comments? Give me a break. Besides, you have to work together as a team with the rest of the developers, hence you should have asked if you didn\'t understand a comment.
to RussianVodka: /* blaat */ comments out blaat, so this wat you can span multiple lines
Glad you\'re here to tell us these things and you read the posts in the thread you made ;) .
And you should put a check on your ego. You won\'t get far in life if it\'s that big.
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I believe kronon raises some interesting points.
I fetched CB from CVS a couple of days ago, I still can\'t get it to work (a GCC/SUSE problem, not a PS problem). So I figured I take a look at the structure.
Well, for something as HUGE as this project, I\'d expected to see some sort of organization tree that links the _major_ classes togeather. That is, how the different componenets of the project blend togeather. This would make things _much_ easier for any prospective developer, for s/he can gain some insight into structure of the game.
Now, for documenation, I looked in the docs directory to find a few text files (todo, credits..etc). I expected to find the Doxygen API there with some hierarichal trees on the classes and their relations. Well, I found none.
How do I get it the API? I go and visit the website, look around, go to \"Help Us\" section, and couldn\'t find much there. I visited the \"recruitment\" page, and some tips on developing for PS, but I can\'t find the API.
I look for README file in the main directory for PS, and there is none.
Nevermind, is there a Doxyfile somewhere so I can generate some API? I couldn\'t find any.
So no wonder that some prospective developers can get intimidated a bit, but I\'m not just going to give up yet. Actually, I\'m not going to ask for any tasks until I understand PS/CS and feel comfortable with them.
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Yes levski, that\'s exactly what I meant. if his maturity level is any indication, that would be right about the perfect age. I know I shouldn\'t say things like that. it\'s flaming and a little ignorant, but,you know, it kinda drives me nuts that he gets on here acting like he knows better than the programmers, trying to make claims that what they are doing is inferior, and the fact that he has NO evidence to say otherwise makes it that much worse.
(sorry for long sentances, but I\'ve gone over it, and it\'s not fragmented... I have a tendancy to do that)
he makes a connection between CS and the delay of CB, but that really means nothing. I\'ve been beta testing games for a while and I know about delays. I mean look at Star Wars galaxies, released more than a year after their projected release date. It was delayed more than five times, and it was still released with less than half of it\'s planned content. I didn\'t buy it because player based housing was left out, among other things, and from what I hear about it\'s stability, I\'m glad I made that choice. It all came down to Sony Verant\'s deadlines, which really sucks. If they had had the time, they could have made a very good game, and most likely the top seller of all time. now, it\'s just another of the bad star wars games, and there are more than enough of those...
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oops, forgot my point...
I would much rather there be huge delays, resulting in a magnificently produced game, over a release tommorrow that wouldn\'t satisfy a total gimp (kronon maybe)
I can only say, if the programmers need 2 weeks or two years to produce CB, they can damn well take it, and I will be waiting patiently
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Originally posted by Fextina
I believe kronon raises some interesting points.
Well, for something as HUGE as this project, I\'d expected to see some sort of organization tree that links the _major_ classes togeather. That is, how the different componenets of the project blend togeather. This would make things _much_ easier for any prospective developer, for s/he can gain some insight into structure of the game.
I\'ve been looking for a good tool to do this. As of yet I have not found a good cross platform one. Can you suggest any software that we can use to develop these class relationships?
Now, for documenation, I looked in the docs directory to find a few text files (todo, credits..etc). I expected to find the Doxygen API there with some hierarichal trees on the classes and their relations. Well, I found none.
How do I get it the API? I go and visit the website, look around, go to \"Help Us\" section, and couldn\'t find much there. I visited the \"recruitment\" page, and some tips on developing for PS, but I can\'t find the API.
The compiling.txt in /docs gives a fairly wide range of tips for building in different environments. You can find the doxygen page here (http://planeshift.sourceforge.net/pubapi/html/hierarchy.html) ( this is still being updated as we go so all things are not *fully* documented yet )
So no wonder that some prospective developers can get intimidated a bit, but I\'m not just going to give up yet. Actually, I\'m not going to ask for any tasks until I understand PS/CS and feel comfortable with them.
Yes, that is totally understandable. If you have any suggestions on how to do this then we can certainly try.
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Originally posted by Fextina
Well, for something as HUGE as this project, I\'d expected to see some sort of organization tree that links the _major_ classes togeather. That is, how the different componenets of the project blend togeather. This would make things _much_ easier for any prospective developer, for s/he can gain some insight into structure of the game.
Thank you for that point of view. It runs in the direction what I would say about PS and CS. I couldn\'t really find some closed working areas, which fits together through a thin, but defined border. That results in the waiting states, acraig mentioned in another thread... when he needs some improvements and has to talk with CS team and then wait and hope the best.
Btw, even the posts of kronon sounds a little bit arrogant, every programmer should be open to any critical word... often helps more than the countless cheers to PS, numerous kisses to the devs and the statement, that you wait until \"it is done\". It is MY opinion, that LOC should not be mentioned as the quality of PS. That makes it not an impartial statement. I would only throw some additional ideas in the pot of coding.
And IMHO it would be a good decision to make usage of CS only throug one or two simple, clean defined interfaces... makes PS independent of the renderer, even switchable at later stage... and at least profiling/debugging can be done individual for every part. The other thing is a (perhaps) missing segmentation of single program parts. I saw the big picture somewhere in the \"documentation\" or website... but I couldn\'t it verify in the code. But it is absolutely imaginable - I already said it - that I am not enough knowledged for such a BIG project.
br, Winterheaven.
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Originally posted by Levski
So basically, C++ isn\'t in any way in danger of extinction because of C#. That\'s good.
Not extinction, but C# will probably eat considerable part of C++\'s pie.
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In general, the more knowledgeable people are who review our code the nicer they think it is. If someone cannot understand code, there are two possibilities as to why: a) The code is overly complex. b) They have insufficient skill.
While I think there are some areas better than others in our code, most of the comments in here have not been about those sections, but instead have been very general comments about the complexity of CS. Yes it is complex, but I\'d like to hear from you which parts you think you can take out.
The more you learn about CS, the more you will appreciate its structure. It is very advanced C++ programming, however, not some class project, and you should not expect to pick it up instantly.
- Venge
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I agree that PS lacks a high-level overview of the code and it lacks comments in some areas.
On the other hand if this means fatal obstacle for someone, then I ask myself if that person has needed skills and/or patience to contribute.
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Take a look at Poseidon from Gentleware. www.gentleware.com (http://www.gentleware.com)
Its in java and should on any system with a jvm. The free version cant reverse engineer and it is primary for java(code generation).
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Originally posted by tangerine
Not extinction, but C# will probably eat considerable part of C++\'s pie.
I read somewhere that C# is about 80-90% based on C++. So if you know C++, you wouldn\'t be that much worse off right?
But isn\'t that the whole thing about object-oriented programming? That you don\'t have to look at all the lines of code? I think that\'s what gets a lot of amateur programmers, they tend to look at it and say, \"Whoa,\" instead of looking at it piece by piece. I know I used to do that. :))
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What\'s missing:
1. UML for class relations;
2. An overview from a lead developer on the different components of PS, what they do, and how they blend togeather.
Believe me, I\'m not asking this because I\'m lazy, but because this is what you do in almost any software project with this level of complexity.
The benefits:
1. Prospective developers can learn PS in a relatively shorter time span;
2. Prospective developers will ask _less_ questions and program _better_ once they have the proper documentation.
I took a look at the coding guide, very nice job. I have one more addition, it\'s a good idea that you make a requirtment that restricts developers from comitting any new classes/files unless they\'re fully documented.
Many developers like to \"hack\" and commit, and they \"promise\" to add documentation later. This is understandable, but for a project of this size, it\'s a bad policy. Some developers undermine the value of documentation and just \"keep hacking\".
My two cents.
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Originally posted by Fextina
What\'s missing:
I took a look at the coding guide, very nice job. I have one more addition, it\'s a good idea that you make a requirtment that restricts developers from comitting any new classes/files unless they\'re fully documented.
Many developers like to \"hack\" and commit, and they \"promise\" to add documentation later. This is understandable, but for a project of this size, it\'s a bad policy. Some developers undermine the value of documentation and just \"keep hacking\".
My two cents.
In a more organized structure this is possible. At one company I worked at you had to have a peer review before you checked in any code. This makes sense in a well organized company where you can walk down to the next office and ask for a review and have it in a few minutes. As you can imagine this is not really an option for PS. However, if we try to get into the habbit of fully documenting stuff as we commit the documentation will get better.
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It would be a shame if some of the points raised are infact true and people are being stubborn. It would be more constructive to accept the faults and work on them.
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Originally posted by acraig
In a more organized structure this is possible. At one company I worked at you had to have a peer review before you checked in any code. This makes sense in a well organized company where you can walk down to the next office and ask for a review and have it in a few minutes. As you can imagine this is not really an option for PS. However, if we try to get into the habbit of fully documenting stuff as we commit the documentation will get better.
Why wouldnt it also work for PS? The points Fextina made are correct and especially in an open source project usefull. Since creating documentation about the structure of the software makes it more flexible and easier to add to it. So someone who wants to help in the project can learn the code quicker.
Of course its hard to have the programmers make documentation but the general structure thats thougt up can be documented by the leaders of the project and of those of the groups.
Another advantage of this is that it gives a better understanding of the structure and its flaws so better quality can be acquired by having a well developed structure.
Maybe this is already done? I don\'t know, but this is just my humble opinion.
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To begin with I don\'t know what 2014 means.
The amount of classes that some one posted, is at least 2 times less, so the amount of classes is INDEAD lesser.
Also I\'m 19 and know very well how to program thank you. When you want to go mud throwing do it some where else please. It\'s so easy to say, ow he doesn\'t agree with me so he must be stopid.
The other thing is that, you don\'t even have to be a \"great\" programmer to know that a program needs structure, cs is bloated and slow because it lacks that. CS will never be nearly so good as the ut(unreal) engine.
A pitty that no one takes the trouble to realy look at what I have been saying. Mud throwing is the easiest thing to do, bo it won\'t come to the good of this project. But you all probably know better right? Specialy non dev\'s who tell me how wrong I am.
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By mud slinging do you mean being in a state of denial and attacking the people spotting the problems rather than acknowledging they exist?
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Originally posted by Cirque
It would be a shame if some of the points raised are infact true and people are being stubborn. It would be more constructive to accept the faults and work on them.
Were we really that stubborn ? We can accept our faults and we did. What we didn\'t accept was clueless bashing of PS and CS.
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Originally posted by kronon
Also I\'m 19 and know very well how to program thank you.
If you think that programming PS is \"nearly imposible\", I don\'t think you can program so well.
Originally posted by kronon
When you want to go mud throwing do it some where else please.
Well you come here saying that PS code structure makes programming impossible, that CS is a \"nightmare\", that CB will probably never be released, that PS should be rewritten from scratch, and other \"qualified\" assesments of situation and you are wondering that many people don\'t like you and don\'t take you seriously ? Yes you did raise valid points, but in general it was mostly hogwash.
Originally posted by kronon
CS will never be nearly so good as the ut(unreal) engine.
Wow, who would have thought that engine done by a few volunteers in their spare time won\'t be as good as Unreal ? Thank you Kronon for telling us ;)
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Originally posted by tangerine
Originally posted by Cirque
It would be a shame if some of the points raised are infact true and people are being stubborn. It would be more constructive to accept the faults and work on them.
Were we really that stubborn ? We can accept our faults and we did. What we didn\'t accept was clueless bashing of PS and CS.
Thanks for confirming that your being stubborn.
The reason I say that is because I never once accused anyone of being stubborn. I simply stated that it would be a shame if that was the case.
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In fact we do have some documentation. We mostly keep it to ourselves though. Here is one example (work in progress) doc which may explain some things to those of you who need to get your bearings in the code.
http://www.paqrat.com/planeshift/IntrotoPlaneShift.ppt
- Venge
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19??? Yeah, uh huh, You have LOADS of experience and know better than any programmer out there [/sarcasm]
A pitty that no one takes the trouble to realy look at what I have been saying
seems to me that I have seen some of the programmers directly shooting down your arguments about the engine. if they can do that, they must have read your posts here... try again man.
Oh, and as far as I\'d heard the unreal engine wasn\'t open sourced, though I might be mistaken...
When you want to go mud throwing do it some where else please. It\'s so easy to say, ow he doesn\'t agree with me so he must be stopid.
hey man, this entire THREAD is about mud-slinging, and you know it. you were the one throwing the first handful when you started telling everyone that this is just a doomed project.
tell me, if it was impossible to code with CS, would they have managed to create MB??? Somehow I doubt it. Now with that one statement, I have proven that the first claim you made was false. if you\'re going to make accusations about the team or engine, try to show some proof.
I have a lot of respect for these people, nobody else seems interested in making a 3d MMO for absolutely no profit. And I haven\'t seen anything but a respectful attitude come out of any of the devs or programmers. so don\'t give them any ****.
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P.S. try to watch your spelling, four misspellings in two quotes might actually lead to the assumption that you are stupid. I don\'t believe you are, just that you are young rash and egotistical.
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Was only a matter of time before someone had a go at his age. Im sure theres people on these forums that are younger than 19 and you would think they are mature age adults and vice versa.
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Many people are ignoring a very important thing when they say that Crystal Space is a monster. There are indeed a huge number of classes and source files but that really doesn\'t matter because those classes are cleanly divided in seperate plugins. These plugins are really independent from each other (there are only links between them through the contracts they publish, i.e. interfaces). For example, the sound plugins are COMPLETELY independend from the engine plugin. You can even physically remove the sound plugins from the Crystal Space source directory and CS will still work and compile (the build system will adapt automatically). The same goes for all other plugins.
So you should not say that CS is one huge monster. CS is a collection of small modular plugins. Don\'t let the huge number of classes overwhelm you. That really does not matter. Look at CS as a collection of smaller subprojects that all (in one way or the other) interact with each other.
As to CS being designed with a software renderer in mind that used to be true in the past. But it is no longer true. The new renderer design (which is what the next release of PlaneShift will use) is fully designed with 3D hardware in mind and makes full use of shaders and other advanced 3D stuff. The software renderer is still being ported but it is now considered secondary and the priority is a lot lower. We also will not attempt to port all features to the software renderer. Just enough so that the people who depend on that renderer (and there still are a lot) are happy and can remain using CS.
Greetings,
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Hi all!
I followed your discussion very well and it\'s really interesting. The first post scared me (comments like the game is not good programmed and other thingies). But I now see that it\'s not as bad as I expected (uhm I mean I hope so)
I myself am right now in a developer apprenticeshipment, and I would love to code for PS. But I know that I am too bad in it. I also know that I am now disturbing the current discussion, but the previous one about learing how to code made me asking if the experienced coders could give a little bit of information or tips for beginners or advanced. You never know if you could be helpful for the project or if you have to learn more.
For example if I am learning the right stuff. I can already program well in VB and I know all this stuff about IFs FORs etc. I also know the technique of objectoriented programming. I also am able to code in C. I am learning C++ right now (C# is only for windows? OMG...). I saw that I learn things fast if I just start MS visual studio and load up a sample project. Then I change some things, try to add new things and want to understand the code.
Do you think this is a good way to learn?
I hope we can continue both discussions, about CS/PS and the programming theme.
BTW: I won\'t propose C++ in 21 days... the fordummies series are much better IMO.
Greetz CorDharel
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you see cirque, it\'s not that youth is a bad thing. it\'s his attitude about being 19. There was a time when being 19, you were experienced in the field, everyone older was raised when programming wasn\'t a known art. but now, if you\'re 19, you\'re comparitively just starting out in the field.
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but now, if you\'re 19, you\'re comparitively just starting out in the field.
?(
The school district in my neighborhood offers teaching C++ code in middle school (7th grade). That means that if you pick it up then and keep at it for 7 years for you to get to 19 years old, you might get pretty darn good at it.
BTW: I won\'t propose C++ in 21 days... the fordummies series are much better IMO.
Why not? I find it a really easy and thorough book! Besides, I am way to far into it to switch books ;) . I just have to figure out some way to make sure I don\'t forget all of this stuff 6 months down the road...
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?Might be? being the operative part of the statement. Knowledge is no substitute for skill. I, for instance, know how to do a crap load of stuff in Photo shop and Lightwave. Does that make me proficient and skillful in them? Hell no. If I was I would have tried to join the team when I first heard about the project?Well ok no that is wrong I wouldn?t by nature. But I would have got into a while ago.
I?ll freely admit that its not the cleanest structure ever but the code doesn?t look that bad, it aint textbook, but its not as bad as all that.
?forget all the stuff 6 months down the road.
Tell me about it. :D
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Some would argue that skill comes from knowledge.
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\"skill\" at a particular task comes from many things. Knowledge is essential for some, experience often more so, sometimes innate personality characteristics are what determines skill.
kronon, asserting your level of skill here will not help much unless you have some tangible evidence. I must say that my first impression of your first post was that you were in over your head; I don\'t know if that was the case or not, but PS and CS are both complicated projects, and the lack of description of the interaction of the various classes and subsystems makes discovery a little more difficult. That said, I spent some time over the last few days looking all over the planeshift codebase, and while I saw some small-scale wierdness (like using a flag called \"soundplaying\" to determine the load progress, or something less than intuitive like that) most of it wasn\'t too hard to get my head around.
I would agree that more structural documentation for PS would be convenient, but I believe your criticism has not been particularly well thought out or well-argued. A more moderate approach might attract less hostility.
As for Crystal Space not being as fast as UT, CS is a framework with many different applications in mind. There are a lot of interfaces to learn- do you have any tips as to how they can be documented in a more approachable manner?
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not true cirque.
think about this, ancient blacksmiths knew nothing about metallurgy nor the elements, yet in toledo and madagascar, with enough experience they learned to create the strongest steels known the world over. and science has yet to improve it over the steel made in those regions.
skill comes from experience, not knowledge. there is no action in this world that can be read about and done flawlessly without reference the first time.
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\"Some would argue that skill comes from knowledge.\"
So its not true that some would argue this?
Also think about how knowledge could fit in with your little story.
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...and so it gets philosophical.
I think skill comes from two places: Training and natural abillity.
tygerwilde
couldn\'t you gather that the brute force process of test and failure is a form of knowledge aquisition and although they hadn\'t a wider scope of there actions they had knowledge enough to search for substance with the right properties to make these hard metals.
and information put to use properly is exercising wise dominion aka wisdom. wisdom is information put to good use.
Training a skill is one thing. Exercising wise dominion is another, one could argue that planeshift is a skilled project...but not a wise one. In that its living up to its purpose but hasn\'t lived up to its potential just yet.
Its nature of being a free open sourced project is always a duel bladed sword of hope and Dimness in all aspects: quality of client and development tactics.
but heck, its free and as long as it has programmers can get better.
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what I meant is that it\'s not true that skill comes from knowledge.
you could read a thousand books about painting or drawing, but that doesn\'t mean you would have any ability with a brush. I will concede to the point about natural ability. but knowledge is no substitute for experience.
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oh yeah....well check this out
no skill yet husstle (http://www.deadprez.com/video/DeadPrez_HellYeah_VidFull_300.asx)
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Originally posted by tygerwilde
what I meant is that it\'s not true that skill comes from knowledge.
you could read a thousand books about painting or drawing, but that doesn\'t mean you would have any ability with a brush. I will concede to the point about natural ability. but knowledge is no substitute for experience.
So if I read 1000 books on artistry then the quality of the work I produce would be no better than the work I produce had I not read the books?
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The quality would be better. But you would not have any experience. IMO You would end up like this guy:
(http://www.domtools.com/~pab/code4food.jpg)
:D ;)
But are we not losing the point of discussion? The thread was about the \"bad code of planeshift\"...
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\"But are we not losing the point of discussion? The thread was about the \"bad code of planeshift\"...\"
1st sentence is a bit hypocritical considering you posted a picture of a hobo.
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no, reading books doesn\'t help at all in the arts, art is about what\'s inside your heart not what\'s inside your head.
the only thing that a book helps with is how to hold the brush. and there are many different opinions on how THAT is done.
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Originally posted by tygerwilde
no, reading books doesn\'t help at all in the arts, art is about what\'s inside your heart not what\'s inside your head.
Ahh thankyou.
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-The first time I had an asignment and I whas late, I got the reply that it whasn\'t a problem and could send it any time a year( or next year if I wanted). That made me wonder how other programmers dealt with this.
programmers are lucky .. boonet dropped me from prospect status because my first assignment was late :D
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I wish i was a programmer...creatively it seems like the ultimate power from a technical stand point but it takes too much...
too much...
hmm...
Work!
yeah thats the word so I\'m gonna just continue on my writters path. I\'m doing a spoken word show at school in this club that I helped create.
But anyway man. Arguing isn\'y sovling anything. some one should do somethin useful like.
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I am :D
I\'m learning C++ as fast as my time allows me to 8)
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yeah, I wish i had a computer to practice on, my comp was stolen and basicly i just post from my schools comp.
although i did take a programming class.
It was very basic and i forgot all the details, it wa a C++ class.
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hmm. is there such a thing as a free compiler program, I\'m looking for one so I can start to try some things, but I can\'t find one for under 100 american
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Dev c++ ( Sourceforge!! ) (http://sourceforge.net/projects/dev-cpp/)
This is pretty popular I think, although I\'ve never used it. ( Can\'t program c++... :) ). Have no idea if the libraries are standard or anything, or work with PS? I\'m sure others will know though, and chime in.
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afaik, dev-c++ cannot build CS. (Too big).
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If you\'re looking for free compilers on the windows platform, then one option is mingw (a \"unix layer\", sorta) and gcc (standard free compiler on linux, os x, many others).
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[I wish i was a programmer...creatively it seems like the ultimate power
mmm unfortunatly, programmer often means \"code what other poeple designed\".
Designer/Architech is much much more cooler since you decide what has to be done.
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I\'m not specifically looking for a compiler for CS right now venge, I\'m just looking for something to do some C++ practices on. is that devc++ good for that kind of thing?
I don\'t really know that much about it personally, I\'d like to learn to code, and from what i understand, I have to have the compiler before I can do anything else.
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check out my example in my earlier post (no skill yet hussle)