PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: lucius on June 08, 2004, 03:20:06 pm
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Ok , I know you night not like this idea and i know that there was somewhere a topic about guns ... But I\'d like to write this idea anyway . So please don\'t be so harsh on it .
Well , I was kinda thinking about science&magic aspect in the game . I know it\'s a fantasy game , but still it would be nice to have a choise betwin magic or science . I\'m not talking about guns or fireballs (altho gunpowder existed for a long time , even in medievel times ... cannons , for example were used as siege weapons mainly ) . But I know that it\'s FANTASY and not HISTORICAL game ... But on the other hand : where else could magic and science exist in one world side by side ? ;)
Let\'s say you\'re a blacksmith , you reached sertain level or a grade in blacksmithing ... You might want to make a magical ( like +1 ) weapons ... Or you might consentrate on science and to create better sword , armour with the use of technology ... Magical weapons could be enhanced or blessed and you could put some spells on it . Technological weapons can\'t be enhanced , but you can add some gadgets or modules and they would have some other non-magical skills ( like additional critical dammege or you could put some oil on it and to torch it , so now you would have additional fire dammege )
Or let\'s say you\'re a thief and you got your picklocks skill ... You could use more technologicaly advanced lockpicks or you could use magic ... It goes to locks as well , by the way . I mean some loks could be enforced with magic and some could me technological masterpiese ...
Let\'s say you found some useless trinket in some dungeon ... You could combine it with another useless trinket that you found earlier . As a result you\'ll get some gadget that could add some speed to your heavy armour ...
I\'m not talking about skill only ... I just gave some example of what it could be .
There can be plenty of possibilies in a world like that . And it would me much more choise for players and other stuff to explore .
I\'m not comparing PlaneShift with any other games , right now , I just want to give some examples of the games , where science&magic were applied together :Arcanum , Wizardy 8 . If you ever played any of those games , you know what I\'m talking about then . And before anybody sayed \"It sux\" or \"Science will spoill this game..\" let me tell one thing . It won\'t spoil anything . And there almost will be no diference betwin both sides if they\'ll be god balanced . At least I think so . It will give more posibilities to players and more things to chose from , which means more fun and moreinterest ... Althogh it\'s only my opinion .
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sounds like a good idea but where do you limit it? would there be a gadget comperable to each spell in the game? I like to think of science as limited and magic as unlimited. Also if you do have a comperable scientific \"thing\" for lack of a better term, for each spell why not just have one or the other. It makes no sense to have to program two separate things for the same effect.
You should revise your idea a little and have some things only science can do and some only magic. Post again. I think its a good idea but you need to iron out the bugs first...
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I like your concept alot but I am not 100 percent sure because I don\'t keep my eye on it but they might have that system figured the way they want it already. *shrugs* like I said not sure!
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Originally posted by DepthBlade
I like your concept alot but I am not 100 percent sure because I don\'t keep my eye on it but they might have that system figured the way they want it already. *shrugs* like I said not sure!
That\'s fine with me ... as long as they\'ll give you a choise to follow path of science or magic .
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Originally posted by Ineluke
You should revise your idea a little and have some things only science can do and some only magic. Post again. I think its a good idea but you need to iron out the bugs first...
Those ideas that I wrote there came to my head right when I started to write this thread , I didn\'t thought much about it , I just wrote what came on my mind . But yeah . I agree with you . It\'s pointless to have to have paralize spell in magic and some devise that would basicaly do the same thing as paralize spell . That\'s not what I meant in my previus post . It\'s true , there should be different abilities , but some small things ( like light spell and lamp ( possibly electrick , which is much better then a torchlight ) or open locks spell and some high-tech lockpicks that can give you some bonuse to your picklock skill ) - al of those things should exist at both sides . Am I right ? Let\'s say with magic you can enhance your sword to +1 , +2 , +3 (and so on ... ) and sometimes you can put some minor (but usefull ) spell on it ( like stun at hit with some percent on succes ) . With science , however , you can create a better sword or upgrade an existing one . You may also customize that weapon ( since it belongs to science domain now ) and add some devises to it ... It won\'t be equal to +1 , +2 , +3 ( and so on ) and especialy that won\'t be MAGIC weapon . But it will be good weapon anyway . And what is more important , it actualy , will be YOUR weapon . You\'l be with it for a long time , you\'ll customize it , upgrade it , you\'ll add difrent modifications to it and you\'ll take care of it like it\'s your child :D . And what happens to magical weapon ? When you have weapon +1 and you get weapon +2 or higher , you\'re simply selling it to somebody , because you don\'t need it anymore ( and don\'t say \"no\" - that\'s fact ) . Can\'t say anything about magic , since I don\'t know exists already ( in devs heads :D ) .... But for science - you could craft all kinds of arrows . Explosive arrow for example , or armour piercing arrow or arrow with vial of acid in it .
Speacking of armour ... For example - magic heavy plate . It offers uber protection , but it\'s heavy and slow . Heavy plate that you made with the help of science has lower protection , but it\'s light and you can move with it almost freely ... ALMOST .
Those are few things that can be at both magic and science ... However it\'s not all what they have ... Ofcourse they\'ll have lots of different inventions(devises , gadgets)/spells . It\'s just that right now I can\'t figure out anything of particular ... I\'ll try to made up something more ...
But feal free to share your thoughts :D
P.S: Oh wait got one already ... How about steam powered robot as your pet ? :D Oh ... And here comes another one : If you\'ll combine a set of gadgets, you\'ll get steam engine ... Exept robot don\'t know where it can be usefull as well ... Wait !!! I got it !!! Steam powered super-uber upgraded heavy mechanical armour ( Hmmm... Will do for veeeeeery high-level characters ;) )
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Why should each spell have a gadget equivelent? We\'re not all scientist/blacksmiths/warriors or sorceres/priests/priestesses/mages etc.
Magical folk would prefer to use spells and magic, whilst non-magical folk would use scince and gadgets.
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Let\'s say with magic you can enhance your sword to +1 , +2 , +3 (and so on ... ) and sometimes you can put some minor (but usefull ) spell on it ( like stun at hit with some percent on succes )
That sounds like a very bad idea taken from some very bad korean hack&slash game. BAD IDEA!
First of all, magical weapons are not to be commonly available. In fact, only people who can actually make those weapons themselves should own them. That means you don\'t go on a raid and simply dump a magical item because there is no more room in your backpack (hello diablo!). That\'s very bad style.
As for spell-enhanced weapons, you might get a spell that makes your sword give magical damage instead of physical damage only. No bonus, just the fact that you can now kill things that require magical weapons to kill. A spell such as that could last for 24 hours, or something similar to that.
Science items... I don\'t know. Sure, there can be guns like in the medieval times, but you need to remember. There was a 75% chance they blew up in your hand. If they actually did fire, they were more noisy than damaging, and it took a LONG time to reload. So guns and the like should be kept for viewing purposes only. About steam armors or whatever, I don\'t really get the idea. This isn\'t some Wild Wild West-like game with big robots and whatever, this is a fantasy medieval game.
Generally an okay idea, but like Ineluke said, you need to do lots of thinking before you suggest something like this. You need to work out all the pros and cons, and tell of the possibilities. Not simply say that it\'s a cool idea and let the devs to the rest of the thinking. :)
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I think science is fine in a magical world. Even if _everybody_ has magic (they all have mana, don\'t they?). Therefore, who would bother about science? Well, less people, obviously, but still some. Magic will effectively become a major science all by itself, because it has so much power. However, there are some distinct advantages of scientific research as well, mainly the devices can be made to wear off in much longer times than magical ones but require less stuff. Not less effort, but less special materials and, of course, no spells.
Take swords: the standard sword was just a flat piece of metal with a pointy tip and maybe sharpened edges. This could, of course, be enhanced magically to do extreme damage and also other types of damage like fire or whatever.
Take a katana now. This also is the same concept \"sword\", but it has scientific origins. The average katana is made a _very_ special way (pulverizing it again and again), making the blade extremely durable and sharp while also light. The best the swordmakers could come up with was better steel and maybe a better hardening process if you are lucky. Swords are heavy, they are, in essence, crude.
This is what science will do. Of course, you can enchant a conventional sword to become more durable, lighter and sharper, but what if you do this to a katana? That\'s the way the uber-swords should be created IMO, because magic will also have it\'s limitations, at least in what\'s feasible and worth the effort.
I don\'t believe in the \"+1 Sword\", because IMO it\'s just a waste of mana. If I were to enhance a weapon magically, I\'d not do it to the standard sword if I can help it. I\'d do it to a sword that already has exceptional attributes, because it\'s going to be _way_ more effective while taking the exact same effort.
This is the same logic that applies to magical artifacts: you use good materials, because if you do, you start off with a better thing. In cast of artifacts, the enchanting itself will be more easy to do if the proper materials are being used, but it\'s still the same: if you take the same effort, using crap as base will give you an artifact of less power than if you started off with good materials.
Science and magic, therefore, not only coexist but automatically combine.
I don\'t fancy steam-powered robots and stuff like this at all (I think it\'s stupid since steam engines simply are either not powerful enough or to big to do anything, mostly because of the big boiler, just look at the steam-powered trains), but I acknowledge that there can be magically animated robots. But even these would not be made from wood, but from well-crafted metal that will be much more durable with the same spells applied.
So magic would, IMO, be an enhancement of scientifically created stuff and for things that require scientific theory that isn\'t possible in medieval times. One must, however, acknowledge that magic, by enhancing scientific devices, can actually speed up research in other sciences besides magic itself. What if a device similar to an electron-microscope would have been available in medieval times due to magical enhancement? The resulting scientific theories could then be appiled and the resulting devices enhanced ba magic once more, so all development would receive a serious speed-up.
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Originally posted by Gronomist
That sounds like a very bad idea taken from some very bad korean hack&slash game. BAD IDEA!
Actualy i was refearing to AD&D series ... Where enchanted weapon is a common thing ( you know , long sword +1 , +2 ... up to +5 , and there are special weapons the ones you can\'t buy in stores ... Like Corsomir :) ( greate sword +5 , gives 50% magic ressistance , on hit: remove magic spell , spell failure 20% , double dammage to evil creatures , paladins only :D )
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Originally posted by Gronomist
First of all, magical weapons are not to be commonly available. In fact, only people who can actually make those weapons themselves should own them. That means you don\'t go on a raid and simply dump a magical item because there is no more room in your backpack (hello diablo!). That\'s very bad style.
First of all , give a link , where I can read about magic and magical items in the game , since I know nothing about it !!! If you\'ll do it , I might come up with a better ideas . And secondly , I hate Diablo and ALL hack&slash games . And the last thing that I want is thet this game would look like those .
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Originally posted by Gronomist
As for spell-enhanced weapons, you might get a spell that makes your sword give magical damage instead of physical damage only. No bonus, just the fact that you can now kill things that require magical weapons to kill. A spell such as that could last for 24 hours, or something similar to that.
Actualy ... that\'s how all \"+1\" weapons work (in normal games ofcourse) . Enchancments gave you ability to dammage creatures that normal weapons would do no effect on those ... Ofcource , there were stronger magic mobs and only strongest enchantments ( Corsomir +5 :D YAY )worked on those . But that\'s not to the point . What I wanted to say is that if it\'s +# weapon , it would do magic dammage already ... And not raize weapon\'s stats , like in korean hack&slash games .
24 hours ?!?!?! Isn\'t that TOO LONG ?
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Originally posted by Gronomist
Science items... I don\'t know. Sure, there can be guns like in the medieval times, but you need to remember. There was a 75% chance they blew up in your hand. If they actually did fire, they were more noisy than damaging, and it took a LONG time to reload. So guns and the like should be kept for viewing purposes only. About steam armors or whatever, I don\'t really get the idea. This isn\'t some Wild Wild West-like game with big robots and whatever, this is a fantasy medieval game.
That\'s bull about medievil guns . It\'s true that they were long ro reload , but they were reliable ... Not those crapy german cannons ( if there are any germans , sorry , but that\'s true ) ... In 14th sentury , when guns only came to Europe , were all crapy , but there was no 75% of blowing up ... it was 75% of shooting ( and it was at europian guns only , rusian guns at that time were the best - historical fact , but not to the point ) .
Not so powerfull ? Eh ? Gun loaded with stones wouldn\'t pierce full plate , no ... But it would brake soldier\'s bones and that way it would make him useless during a war . Guns loaded with iron bullets , however , would pass throgh full plate ( and a guy in it ) as if it would be made of paper ... And next 3 guys , who were behind first one would get same bullet ... It would stuck in 4th guy thogh ... :(
Wild Wild West ?!?!?! Dude , you\'re watching too many movies :D And i wasn\'t talking about that giant spider robot or that tank . And I didn\'t meant steam powered armour ( althogh I wrote it like that . I\'m not deneing it ) . What I meant is a very heavy armour with a small engine mounted in it , that would ease your movements in it .
And before you\'ll start reminding me again that it\'s a fantasy game , let me tell you something . I know it !!! But you should not forget that ias well . It\'s a FANTASY game . Meaning ? There could be everything in fantasy !Even steam powered engine , since it\'s a fantasy game ...
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You know what Seytra , to all what you said I can say only one thing : it\'s even crapier then my ideas . You know why ? Because magic manipulates the laws of nature ( I\'m not talking about druids and other stuff like that , I\'m talking about physics ) , changes them how it likes ( well , how the mage likes ) . Science , however , follows those laws , uses them , all the science based on those laws ( the ones that magic manipulates them ) . Therefore , magic and science can\'t be combined , they\'ll simply ruin each other . For that reason you can\'t take sword that was made with scientificaly aproach and to enchance it . ANd therefore : forget everything you wrote about magic artifacts that created with a use of science .
Magicly animated robots ?!?!?! Were you refearing to golems ?!?!?! Huge guys made out of stone or iron ( look at the race , called kran ) ? And steam engines are not the only engines that can exist in that world , you know ... It was just an example ! And for the same reasons I wrote earlier , robotrs , can\'t be \"magicly animated\" .
Originally posted by Seytra
So magic would, IMO, be an enhancement of scientifically created stuff and for things that require scientific theory that isn\'t possible in medieval times. One must, however, acknowledge that magic, by enhancing scientific devices, can actually speed up research in other sciences besides magic itself. What if a device similar to an electron-microscope would have been available in medieval times due to magical enhancement? The resulting scientific theories could then be appiled and the resulting devices enhanced ba magic once more, so all development would receive a serious speed-up.
Speaking of history ... If curch wouldn\'t burn all the scientists in past for their \"heresy\" and \"blasephy\" , there could be already steam engine in 16th sentury . Not to mention that idea of microscope was already known in ancient Greece ... They didn\'t made it thogh , but they had scopes .
Now about your \"sword and katana\" thing ... Katana is the sword . And swords wern\'t made so easily as you think . Did you knew that in England in 14th century , blacksmiths used mix of iron and steal to create swords . Such mix gave to the swords fexibility of iron and hardness of steel at the same time . And they wern\'t so crude at all . That mix had scientific origins ...
Now let\'s take katanas . They had absolutely no scientific origins . True , they pulverized it again and again and again and again ... They only knew it would make their stell harder . They didn\'t knew why or how would it make it better , they just knew it and they used it . Preaty same thing that with monkey , that throws stick at bananas so tat they would fall . It don\'t know why bananas are falling , it just knows tha they falling and that\'s all what she needs ... Latter on . Starting from 13 century ( if I\'m corect ) , weaponsmiths started to use layers of steel in their work . Now THAT was a scientific origin . They used thin layers of steel .Twenty of those layers were combined to create sword . Then when they were combined weaponsmiths were using two diferent clays ( YAY !!! They finaly started to think :D ) . First kind of clay was used on blade itself and the other - on the rest of the sword . that way , when sword was taken to the forge , different tempretuers were needed for blade and the rest of the sword to be ready . It would allow to blade to be very hard and durable , while the rest of sword\'s \"body\" ( don\'t know how to say it on english ) would be flexible and hard at the same time . And that\'s where they started to think acualy ... The problem is they used it even when spanish colonists used guns ...
Originally posted by Elegrand
Why should each spell have a gadget equivelent? We\'re not all scientist/blacksmiths/warriors or sorceres/priests/priestesses/mages etc.
Magical folk would prefer to use spells and magic, whilst non-magical folk would use scince and gadgets.
It shouldn\'t !!! But there should be some small things equal at both sides ... Like I wrote about light spell . But only few !!! And definately not EACH spell and gadget !!!
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Originally posted by lucius
24 hours ?!?!?! Isn\'t that TOO LONG ?
There is nothing wrong with effects that take 24 hours, as long as they are no to powerfull.
You know what Seytra , to all what you said I can say only one thing : it\'s even crapier then my ideas . You know why ? Because magic manipulates the laws of nature ( I\'m not talking about druids and other stuff like that , I\'m talking about physics ) , changes them how it likes ( well , how the mage likes ) . Science , however , follows those laws , uses them , all the science based on those laws ( the ones that magic manipulates them ) . Therefore , magic and science can\'t be combined , they\'ll simply ruin each other . For that reason you can\'t take sword that was made with scientificaly aproach and to enchance it . ANd therefore : forget everything you wrote about magic artifacts that created with a use of science .
You played Arcamum to much.
Generally, it\'s a great idea but the devs will prolly only implement science as far as it was discovered in the medieval times, because otherwise it would change the setting to much.
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If some more advanced scientific technology was to be added i.e. things a bit better than the basic chemestry (alchemy in the middle ages, sort of anyway). Something I would like to see is things like airships for large scale transport (not private or military use though and no I haven\'t been playing too much FFIX), airships are useful as it\'s mass transport for normal people among cities above ground/on the same level.
I don\'t think that steam powered armour should be available as I don\'t think we can do such a thing currently and or it\'s not practical to do such a thing as it would add too much weight.
-Zorium
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I\'m pretty sure we are going to have a flying race so you can probably bet on a creature that flies to be used as transport for the rest of the races. And don\'t forget either flying is kinda limited being as our entire civilization in in a stalagtight. :D
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Lucius, your argument can only be valid within the particular magical theory of yours. Even within it, it\'s still flawed, because:
once science has created something, magic could change the forces of nature that make it work, right. However, it doesn\'t need to. As you already said, magic _can_ alter all rules of physics. So why could it not be used to _improve_ the effects that the scientific device relies on to function? This is the same alteration of natural laws, but it will enhance the scientific device quite a lot.
Example: torch.
Conventional, scientific torch: creates heat and light by oxidation process
Magically enhanced torch: uses same oxidation process, however emits all energy generated by said process to output only light.
Therefore, the magically enhanced torch will either output _way_ more light than the conventional torch, or can burn way longer with ame light output as said scientific torch. Or be much smaller.
Side-effect: it will not burn you.
Same thing in reverse: heat-only torch for all the infrared sensitive eyes out there: light that can only be seen by you (well, at least by fewer people and monsters)! Cool? I think so.
These same effects can, as I alradsy said, be created by magic alone, but this magic would need to be much more powerful in order to achieve the same effect.
This can also be applied to more advanced tech, even to current SOTA - tech like microprocessors: by eliminating heat output of transistors you can make them way smaller, faster and don\'t even need a heatsink anymore.
It is only a common way of gamedesigners to simply define that the higher the scientific refinement of any item is, the harder it is to apply magic to it. This has, however, no more validity as saying that magic cannot exist at all, probably less. ;)
There also are game systems that even have specific magic to influence scientific devices! (ShadowRun, for example). Therefore, it\'s really just a question of the ruledesigners\' ability to integrate science and magic, and only if they fail to, they need to resort to artificial limitations in order to keep their concepts working.
Why? Because MAGIC CAN DO ANYTHING! Why should it be limited to non-scientific devices only? After all, the most scientific device still obeys the same rules as, well, mud. No difference, you could even have a whole scientific theory of mud, create completely artificial mud. Would this mud than be excluded from being influenced by magic? I don\'t think it could be.
As for the steam-powered tanks: I liked Army of darkness, but I\'m reluctant to believe that even this (primitive) tank would have worked IRL, because of the weight vs. power problem. Maybe it even would, but I don\'t know, really. It would take a steam train on wheels to have enough power to run through medieval countryside, and it would most likely simply get stuck / sink in the first muddy field it happens to encounter. Medieval countryside was either very wet (-> mud), rocky (-> mountains) or sandy (-> desert). The steam tank could cope with mountains if it were not that mountains are somewhat unsuited for large / heavy vehicles.
As for swords vs katanas: scientific theory comes from observation. Afterwards, the resulting theory can predict effects not easily observed. So the katana was made using the observation that grinding it repeatedly will improve it, without scientific theory. It also could be made lighter than a sword because it was more durable. I don\'t know weather they knew it was because of the resulting structure or not. I thought they knew, but if you say they didn\'t, I accept that.
When blacksmiths applied layered metal, they maybe had scientific theory, OK. So the advanced swords were scientific. This would, in your theory, then prevent them from being magically enhanced, while the katana could be, because it didn\'t use scientific theory? :)
The mixing of stell and iron IMO is also just an observation or the product of experiements so it\'s the same as the grinding of katanas: applied obervation, not scientific theory. And I\'d be surprised if the makers of katanas used any iron they happened to come across, or just threw it into a lake to cool.
Still, I believe that even the most advanced swords were crude compared to a katana. However, katanas were not easily created (years and years for creating a single one, IIRC). Seeing that I don\'t know weather or not any of them had any scientific theory as opposed to observation, further arguing on my side would be pointless.
As for your strength-enhancing armour powered by steam: I hate it. Anyway, it will not work due to lack of water (tank can only be tiny). Furthermore, it will not work because it\'d be too crude unless you imply modern-tech valves and pressure- powered actuators. IOW, it would be bulky at best. Not to mention that it\'d be kinda warm to have a nice, cozy fire burning inside your backpack all the time, while pipes (made of metal, I presume), filled with ~90?C - tempered water or even hotter steam, run along your body! Of course, you _could_ insulate the temperature, but this would be a matter of extreme bulkiness. It would add to armor, though...
Well, UNLESS it\'s enhanced by magic...
Ineluke: The flying _race_ would be Klyros. They won\'t be good for riding, because they\'re weak. There are flying animals that are meant for transportation, however. And the use of flight outside of the city would indeed be limited because there wouldn\'t be anything to fly to: the other places are behind walls of rock, are tunnels, whatever. The only use would be for fishing because one could more easily access far regions of the lake, but it\'d not warrant huge transport ships.
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Well , I convince that armour with engine ( any engine , doesn\'t have to be steam engine ) is a crapy idea ( lol , I imagine kran guy wearing huge armour with a boiler on his back :D )
\" ...the devs will prolly only implement science as far as it was discovered in the medieval times, because otherwise it would change the setting to much.\" - don\'t forget it\'s not our world . There was no inquisition and people didn\'t get burned alive for their lust for knolage ... So people of PS universe could advance in science much fasted then it was in our actual history :D There is even a posibility that they can discover electrisity in their world ... but that doesn\'t mean that people would start using it right away for example as lights on the streats . No , electrisity would be avaliable for reaserch to scientists only , not for the mages .
Oh and I didn\'t played ARCANUM that much at all ... Ok so I did - as elf :D and I don\'t know much about science in Arcanum :)
About air ships and air travels ... Devs going ot put flying creatures in the game ... Your flight will depend on your skill , but overall (at least I think :D ) everybody will be able to fly ... Who won\'t be able - well , sufise to say that trainers and \"pilots\" will have a good profit out of those people ;)
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Here\'s the list of scientific stuff that wasn\'t criticised ( yet :D ) and something I just made up :
1) All kinds of arrows : armour piercing ( don\'t get me wrong , It\'s not negates ALL the armour , just some part of it ) ; arrows with acid ( acid makes low dammage , but it lasts for some time , pluss reduses armour efficiency ( YAY ! acid burnes through everything :D ) ; explosive arrows ( I don\'t mean those arrows that Rembo used :D ) ; noisemakers ( used to lure ( or to avoid ) mobs (has failure chance , depending on mob\'s inteligence) .
2) Metalsmelting ( maybe not the most suitable name ) :
This will allow to reaserch better metals . For example mixing low level metals to resive a better one . The better mettal - the better sword that\'s made out of this metal . You get the point , right ?
3) Weaponmaking : all kinds of weapons with a scientific origins . From swords to bows ( and maybe even some of the guns - who knows ? ;) )
4) Armourmaking : Allows to improve regular armour and to create flexible armour with good protection ( not as good as enchanted thogh , but it\'s more comfortable and therefore more manuvreble and it doesn\'t weight so much as regular or enchanted armour )
5)Gadgets : gadgets , trinkets , all those inventions that are making our ( in game :) ) life easier ... THe examples are lamp ( electric ? flashlight ? nah ... ) and some sort of advanced lockpicks . I don\'t know about this one ... Should all the mods ( modifications ) be included in this category or should it be seperate skill/category ? Or maybe it would be seperate category , but it would depend on gadgets skill as well ... Don\'t know ...
That would be all for now ... Needles to say that only scientificle items can be upgraded or to have modifications added to them ...
Oh , almost forgot one more idea that crossed my mind :
Fireworks: All that comes to big ( or small :) ) booms :) . This could be harmless fireworks ( just for some entertainment or for luring out mobs ) or some charges or bombs ( but not dynamite all C4 explosives ) .
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Ineluke: The flying _race_ would be Klyros. They won\'t be good for riding, because they\'re weak. There are flying animals that are meant for transportation, however. And the use of flight outside of the city would indeed be limited because there wouldn\'t be anything to fly to: the other places are behind walls of rock, are tunnels, whatever. The only use would be for fishing because one could more easily access far regions of the lake, but it\'d not warrant huge transport ships.
Um you misunderstood me...
I didn\'t mean that people would ride Klyros I mean that if the devs thought to create a race that could fly then they were more than likely going to create animals that could fly and it is also very likely that you may be able to fly on these animals.
Also I seen to recall some sort of mention of riding an animal that flies in the game itself from one of the guards outside of the tavern.... I could be wrong though...
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Originally posted by Ineluke
Also I seen to recall some sort of mention of riding an animal that flies in the game itself from one of the guards outside of the tavern.... I could be wrong though...
Pterosaurs
The Pterosaurs are reptiles with organs adapted to flight, such as their membranous wings and long tails, which they use as a rudder. The Pterosaurs\' dimensions vary from three to six meters, not including their tails, and their wingspan is directly proportionate to their bodies. From the moment they are born, Pterosaurs begin training to carry a person sitting in a saddle buckled between the animal\'s shoulder blades. Pterosaurs must be at least three years old and fully trained before they can actually carry a person, which makes them precious, coveted, and very expensive to keep. Only extremely wealthy people can afford these lizards, but no matter how wealthy a family is they may only legally own a single Pterosaur. The law forbids owning more than one of these animals in order to avoid dangerously crowding the limited air space.
Megaras
The second flying animal is the Megaras, which is similar to a giant bat. Scientists believe the Crystal has genetically mutated the Megaras, since they reproduce only in Yliakum. These bat-like creatures are not as docile as the Pterosaurs, but they are stronger and more efficient, making them perfect to carry heavy but not too delicate loads, such as food and building materials. As with the Pterosaurs, each mercantile society is allowed to own only one Megaras.
Try reading the website sometime :P
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Originally posted by lucius
Originally posted by myself
...the devs will prolly only implement science as far as it was discovered in the medieval times, because otherwise it would change the setting to much.
- don\'t forget it\'s not our world . There was no inquisition and people didn\'t get burned alive for their lust for knolage ... So people of PS universe could advance in science much fasted then it was in our actual history :D There is even a posibility that they can discover electrisity in their world ... but that doesn\'t mean that people would start using it right away for example as lights on the streats . No , electrisity would be avaliable for reaserch to scientists only , not for the mages .
(Sorry if i was no clear, but) I didn\'t mean that this setting isn\'t good or realstic, but that it\'s very unlikely that it will be implemented (because it would change the setting to much, and i think the devs like the setting described on the website).
...magic manipulates the laws of nature ( I\'m not talking about druids and other stuff like that , I\'m talking about physics ) , changes them how it likes ( well , how the mage likes ) . Science , however , follows those laws , uses them , all the science based on those laws ( the ones that magic manipulates them ) . Therefore , magic and science can\'t be combined , they\'ll simply ruin each other .
Check the manual of Arcanum and you\'ll see the similarity...
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There is something similar in another RPG system. They say that the _grade of refinenent_ makes it harder to enchant something. There are also (in the same system) many different ways of magic, some contradict some others as well, so it seems to me to be what the magic user believes in than what magic really does / does not. However, I still think magic is univarsal and can therefore be applied to a freshly-cut stick as well as to a microprocessor.
Electricity isn\'t that hard to discover given the right prerequisites. However, I share your opinion that it most likely will not be implemented because it might change the setting (although, if used only by scientists, it IMO wouldn\'t), especially there will be no gadgets (well, how many low-tech gadgets can be there, really? And what way would be used to generate electricity? I think they wouldn\'t be past, say, the basic oscillator and would probably not have any switching devices like tubes and transistors. Relays, maybe). They therefore _might_ have primitive phone and grammophones, but otherwise I can\'t think of anything (but maybe someone else can).
Summarising I can agree to anything but the gadgets (as I can\'t think of one, as said above).
I also agree on gunpowder in general, as it was available for a long time even in our scientifically challenged medieval times. OK, so the chinese only used it for fireworks, but going from a firecracker to a bomb isn\'t that hard and can easily be done by accident (assuming the inventor lives to tell :) )
And I agree on advanced science in other areas, like geometry, mathematics, medicine or navigation (not limited to ships). Stargazing obviously isn\'t the way to go, however ;)
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Allright this post is mainly to make some corrections to what some people have said...
Now let\'s take katanas . They had absolutely no scientific origins . True , they pulverized it again and again and again and again ... They only knew it would make their stell harder . They didn\'t knew why or how would it make it better , they just knew it and they used it . Preaty same thing that with monkey , that throws stick at bananas so tat they would fall . It don\'t know why bananas are falling , it just knows tha they falling and that\'s all what she needs ... Latter on . Starting from 13 century ( if I\'m corect ) , weaponsmiths started to use layers of steel in their work . Now THAT was a scientific origin . They used thin layers of steel .Twenty of those layers were combined to create sword . Then when they were combined weaponsmiths were using two diferent clays ( YAY !!! They finaly started to think ) . First kind of clay was used on blade itself and the other - on the rest of the sword . that way , when sword was taken to the forge , different tempretuers were needed for blade and the rest of the sword to be ready . It would allow to blade to be very hard and durable , while the rest of sword\'s \"body\" ( don\'t know how to say it on english ) would be flexible and hard at the same time . And that\'s where they started to think acualy ... The problem is they used it even when spanish colonists used guns ...
Before saying Japanese sword makers had no idea why something happend do your research http://victorian.fortunecity.com/duchamp/410/katana.html
this page shows that those sword makers knew what they were doing, though the page deals with 13th century sword making and possibly later (or so I gather) not even the most basic concept can be bought about without thought (scientific or otherwise). Also although I am not Japanese, I take great offense at you comparing Japanese people with monkeys (I think monkeys actually can understand what happens when they throw something at a bannana, though it defeats me why they would need to do this considering they are such superb climers).
Now about your \"sword and katana\" thing ... Katana is the sword . And swords wern\'t made so easily as you think . Did you knew that in England in 14th century , blacksmiths used mix of iron and steal to create swords . Such mix gave to the swords fexibility of iron and hardness of steel at the same time . And they wern\'t so crude at all . That mix had scientific origins ...
So you are saying that English blacksmiths made steel stronger by making it weaker, this makes no sense. If you do not understand what I\'m saying I shall fill you in, steel is stronger than iron BUT steel is an ALLOY not a METAL , steel is made of IRON and CARBON so why would anyone mix steel ALLOY with iron?
Anyway thats enough of my ranting/corrections.
-Zorium
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...magic manipulates the laws of nature ( I\'m not talking about druids and other stuff like that , I\'m talking about physics ) , changes them how it likes ( well , how the mage likes ) . Science , however , follows those laws , uses them , all the science based on those laws ( the ones that magic manipulates them ) . Therefore , magic and science can\'t be combined , they\'ll simply ruin each other .
Check the manual of Arcanum and you\'ll see the similarity...
[/QUOTE]
Well , if devs don\'t want to change game to much ( and science in game is quite a change ) , than there is no point in those discusins . Isn\'t it ?
About similarity with Arcanum ... I read some books with same consept , long time before Arcanum was created ... So why this game can\'t use it as well ? Not to mention that it sounds logicaly to me .
Originally posted by Seytra
Example: torch.
Conventional, scientific torch: creates heat and light by oxidation process
Magically enhanced torch: uses same oxidation process, however emits all energy generated by said process to output only light.
Therefore, the magically enhanced torch will either output _way_ more light than the conventional torch, or can burn way longer with ame light output as said scientific torch. Or be much smaller.
Side-effect: it will not burn you.
LOL , who need torches , if you have electric lamp ?! :D
And LOL again . I\'d like to see wizards in the game using torches , while they\'ll probably have \"light\" spell :D
Originally posted by Seytra
As for swords vs katanas: scientific theory comes from observation. Afterwards, the resulting theory can predict effects not easily observed. So the katana was made using the observation that grinding it repeatedly will improve it, without scientific theory. It also could be made lighter than a sword because it was more durable. I don\'t know weather they knew it was because of the resulting structure or not. I thought they knew, but if you say they didn\'t, I accept that.
When blacksmiths applied layered metal, they maybe had scientific theory, OK. So the advanced swords were scientific. This would, in your theory, then prevent them from being magically enhanced, while the katana could be, because it didn\'t use scientific theory?
The mixing of stell and iron IMO is also just an observation or the product of experiements so it\'s the same as the grinding of katanas: applied obervation, not scientific theory. And I\'d be surprised if the makers of katanas used any iron they happened to come across, or just threw it into a lake to cool.
Still, I believe that even the most advanced swords were crude compared to a katana. However, katanas were not easily created (years and years for creating a single one, IIRC). Seeing that I don\'t know weather or not any of them had any scientific theory as opposed to observation, further arguing on my side would be pointless.
Actualy ... European blacksmiths knew both advantages and disadvantages of iron and steel swords and they wanted to get rid of those ... First who came up with a good idea were english blacksmiths ... They EXPERIMENTED ( which proves scientific aproach and no observation , they had goal to achive , unlike japanese blacksmiths ) and came up with mix of iron and steel ore . Japanece blacksmiths didn\'t exerimented much ... However they found technology of layers ( somehow ) , but that\'s it ! They didn\'t used anything new . And don\'t think that technology of layers in weaponsmithing was unknown to european blacksmiths ... In 14 century they used it already , not for all swords , however , it took to long for them to to make such a swords , therefore , blacksmiths wanted compensation ... So only reach people or generals could aford those .
And no , japanese blacksmiths didn\'t used any iron in their weapons ... Like I said before in my previos post , they used clay . And they wasted lots of time ( unlike european blacksmiths ) because of that method .
Oh and one more thing about katanas and swords ... You wrote that it took few years to make one katana . LOOOOOOOOOOOOL !!! It actualy took few monthss , but not years ( profecional japanece blacksmiths were able to make up to 3 katanas per year ... Mostly bacause they were religous and waited for signal from their god(s) or Buda later on ... European blacksmiths could create few swords per day ( those were low grade swords , but it was usefull during a war ) . And do I need to say that people stoped using swords all over the world ( exept of isolated Japan ) , in 15 century ? They started using sabers and raipers . Those sabers or raipers that were created using layered technology were actualy as good as katanas ... Even better , since those were one-handed weapons , unlike katanas .
Oh and , where the hell did you took that thing with a steam tank ?!?!?! And what\'s up with mud ?!?!?! And will ou stop using steam engine everywhere ?!?!?! Like I wrote before ... Steam engine was only EXAMPLE !!! IT\'S NOT THE ONLY ENGINE !!! Ofcourse , I didn\'t meant diesel engines ...
Oh and the flying race you wrote about , those are playeble characters ... They have thin skeleton , and they can\'t use heavy or madium armour , but that doesn\'t makes them weak ...
Originally posted by Seytra
Why? Because MAGIC CAN DO ANYTHING! Why should it be limited to non-scientific devices only? After all, the most scientific device still obeys the same rules as, well, mud. No difference, you could even have a whole scientific theory of mud, create completely artificial mud. Would this mud than be excluded from being influenced by magic? I don\'t think it could be.
Originally posted by Seytra
As for your strength-enhancing armour powered by steam: I hate it. Anyway, it will not work due to lack of water (tank can only be tiny). Furthermore, it will not work because it\'d be too crude unless you imply modern-tech valves and pressure- powered actuators. IOW, it would be bulky at best. Not to mention that it\'d be kinda warm to have a nice, cozy fire burning inside your backpack all the time, while pipes (made of metal, I presume), filled with ~90?C - tempered water or even hotter steam, run along your body! Of course, you _could_ insulate the temperature, but this would be a matter of extreme bulkiness. It would add to armor, though...
For screaming out loudly !!!First you\'re talking about magic , then you\'re talking about scientific stuff and giving scientific explanations to evey thing and you\'re proving that it can\'t exist !!! You\'re taking it to real!!! BUT TOGETHER WITH IT YOU\'RE THINKING THAT MAGIC CAN DO EVERYTHING !!! Think about eveything as if it\'s in FANTASY world . Or stop talking crap about magic and how it can improve our modern technology !!! You\'re forgeting that it\'s not existing IRL !!! And for GOD sake !!! Stop using all of those \"IRL , IMO , IIRC\" and other stuff like that . I don\'t even understand half of it !!!
Well ,exept IRl=in real life ... I think ...
I used that conseption with laws of nature to seperate magic from science . Otherwise there would be no point chosing one ore another . The whole idea will simply loose it\'s interest to people .
To what Zorium said ...
I didn\'t maent to offend anybody with those words ... I wanted to make an example of how they used something without of interest why it\'s happening ... I hope all those who got offended with my words will accept my apologies .
Japanece blacksmiths started working on katanas in 11th or 12 century if I\'m not mistaken ... again .
(But monkies don\'t know anything about kinetic energy .... )
About mixing iron and steel ...
Iron swirds were flexible , unlike swords made out of steel ... Blacksmiths wanted to make swords out of stel more flexible ... Maybe I was wrong when I said that they mixed both iron and steel ore ... But they used them both in creation of swords . That way their swords were both flexible and hard ... Maybe it wasn\'t as strong as pure steel , but it wouldn\'t brake if heavy axe would hit it ...
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I dont really like the idea of science and magic coexisting because i like the medieval, fantasy setting. I think it would be good if some laws of science were applied but nothing too advanced, like steam engines and all because then it would be more of a sci-fi game...... it could work if the sciences werent so advanced but i still think that magic would go much further.... i mean, even stuff like swords being lighter, u could just magically enhance the weight so it was lighter, and as for robots and such, why not just have a wizard magically enhance a piece oof metal or wood to walk and talk, same effect, no science required
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Planeshift is sci-fi. Sci-Fi means science fiction, science fiction isn\'t real therefore Planeshift is also considered sci-fi.
Anyways, I think it\'s good to have science and magic.
Maybe I don\'t want to use wind magic to make my arrows thrust faster but instead use better feathers.
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Originally posted by lucius
Well , if devs don\'t want to change game to much ( and science in game is quite a change ) , than there is no point in those discusins . Isn\'t it ?
Exactly.
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Originally posted by lucius
...magic manipulates the laws of nature ( I\'m not talking about druids and other stuff like that , I\'m talking about physics ) , changes them how it likes ( well , how the mage likes ) . Science , however , follows those laws , uses them , all the science based on those laws ( the ones that magic manipulates them ) . Therefore , magic and science can\'t be combined , they\'ll simply ruin each other .
Check the manual of Arcanum and you\'ll see the similarity...
Well , if devs don\'t want to change game to much ( and science in game is quite a change ) , than there is no point in those discusins . Isn\'t it ?
[/quote]
It\'s a speculation that they don\'t. They didn\'t say weather or not they would. And, being pre-alpha, there\'s plenty of room for changes.
Anyway, if you imply that science and magic can\'t mix because one would do _everything_ exclusively by magic, simply because it could be done, you also imply that you wouldn\'t cook, because all food can be magically made edible and tasty. You also wouldn\'t bother with farming, as magic can simply create food. Also, you wouldn\'t use fire or even cloths, since magic can make you warm and also protect you. There would be no ladders, no stairs, no walls, nothing, because magic can make you levitate, you wouldn\'t need tools so you don\'t need a house, since magic protects you from the weather.
But I say you still would, because it\'s economically impossible to use magic for anything and everything, as long as you don\'t have unlimited magical power, which would make everyone a god, in which case there would not be much sense in a fantasy setting anyway.
Especially when you have different magical abilities you must choose from, it\'s obvious that one still needs science to make up for the rest, and there will be ppl. who invent things, because they might not like to be dependant on the neighbouring mahe to protect them from the weather.
Originally posted by lucius About similarity with Arcanum ... I read some books with same consept , long time before Arcanum was created ... So why this game can\'t use it as well ? Not to mention that it sounds logicaly to me .
OK, so it sounds logical to you, but not to me. Also, why would ths game (PS, i believe), _need_ to use this concept in light of many, many other concepts, all equally proofless?
Originally posted by lucius
Originally posted by Seytra
Example: torch.
Conventional, scientific torch: creates heat and light by oxidation process
Magically enhanced torch: uses same oxidation process, however emits all energy generated by said process to output only light.
Therefore, the magically enhanced torch will either output _way_ more light than the conventional torch, or can burn way longer with ame light output as said scientific torch. Or be much smaller.
Side-effect: it will not burn you.
LOL , who need torches , if you have electric lamp ?! :D
And LOL again . I\'d like to see wizards in the game using torches , while they\'ll probably have \"light\" spell :D
Obviously, my explanation wasn\'t nerarly as clear as I thought it would be. I didn\'t mean that wizards were to use torches (although they might, as mana isn\'t unlimited). You seem to imply that there are only wizards in the game, but fact is, there will be people who are not wizards. These would maybe not invest in the light spell (merchants, for example), but in other spells as they only have limited \"spell capacity\". Torches, IOW, mainly are for non-mages.
Originally posted by lucius
Actualy ... European blacksmiths knew both advantages and disadvantages of iron and steel swords and they wanted to get rid of those ... First who came up with a good idea were english blacksmiths ... They EXPERIMENTED ( which proves scientific aproach and no observation , they had goal to achive , unlike japanese blacksmiths ) and came up with mix of iron and steel ore . Japanece blacksmiths didn\'t exerimented much ... However they found technology of layers ( somehow ) , but that\'s it ! They didn\'t used anything new.
So they ground the katanas just for fun? Or is it nothing new to apply a new method of manufacturing (like grinding), but only the use of new materials is? They didn\'t even wish to make a good knife, as they had no goal to achieve?
Originally posted by lucius And don\'t think that technology of layers in weaponsmithing was unknown to european blacksmiths ... In 14 century they used it already , not for all swords , however , it took to long for them to to make such a swords , therefore , blacksmiths wanted compensation ... So only reach people or generals could aford those .
I didn\'t say that. I already acknowledged that they knew it when you said they used different metals, please read my posts.
Originally posted by lucius
And no , japanese blacksmiths didn\'t used any iron in their weapons ... Like I said before in my previos post , they used clay . And they wasted lots of time ( unlike european blacksmiths ) because of that method .
OK, you are saying they made katanas from clay? Surely that would be a great waste of time, as pottery isn\'t exactly the way to make swords. I also find the blades of katanas look much like iron or steel, not like the average plate made of clay...
Originally posted by lucius
Oh and one more thing about katanas and swords ... You wrote that it took few years to make one katana . LOOOOOOOOOOOOL !!! It actualy took few monthss , but not years ( profecional japanece blacksmiths were able to make up to 3 katanas per year ... Mostly bacause they were religous and waited for signal from their god(s) or Buda later on ... European blacksmiths could create few swords per day ( those were low grade swords , but it was usefull during a war ) .
So? This only lessens the disadvantage of their method compared to swords, but IMO has nothing to do with the science bit.
Originally posted by lucius
And do I need to say that people stoped using swords all over the world ( exept of isolated Japan ) , in 15 century ? They started using sabers and raipers . Those sabers or raipers that were created using layered technology were actualy as good as katanas ... Even better , since those were one-handed weapons , unlike katanas .
Any technology will eventually be replaced by another one that supercedes it. Nothin new to that. This doesn\'t make the previous technology worse or less scientific, just obsolete.
Originally posted by lucius
Oh and , where the hell did you took that thing with a steam tank ?!?!?! And what\'s up with mud ?!?!?! And will ou stop using steam engine everywhere ?!?!?! Like I wrote before ... Steam engine was only EXAMPLE !!! IT\'S NOT THE ONLY ENGINE !!! Ofcourse , I didn\'t meant diesel engines ...
So which other engines _did_ you refer to, then? Electric engines? Ion drives? Wind? Water? Solar? I use steam engine as it seems to be the only thing remotely plausible in a medieval-like fantasy setting, but feel free to explain why it\'s not.
And what about the steam tank? I took it from the observation that, in order to have a steam engine of usable power run for any substantial amount of time without refills, the steam tank (actually, the water tank, which is the same) needs to be big. Or did you talk about the steam-powered tank? I made it up, of course, because it\'s the only steam-powered device that could go anywhere but on rails. There is a reason why cars were only made when the otto, diesel, wankel engines were invented, and this reason is the size vs. weight relation.
FYI, the mud was an example of how illogical I find it that by scientifically creating something it becomes less natural as anything else. Mud can be created by very scientific means, but in the end it is exactly the same as conventional mud.
Originally posted by lucius
Oh and the flying race you wrote about , those are playeble characters ... They have thin skeleton , and they can\'t use heavy or madium armour , but that doesn\'t makes them weak ...
In terms of durability and physical strength, it actually _does_. If the disadvantage of physical strength is in equilibrium with appropriate advantages, they aren\'t weak overall in the sense of \"good for nothing\", but I did not mean to imply that as I was referring to physical strength, but I might be wrong to assume this.
Originally posted by lucius
Originally posted by Seytra
Why? Because MAGIC CAN DO ANYTHING! Why should it be limited to non-scientific devices only? After all, the most scientific device still obeys the same rules as, well, mud. No difference, you could even have a whole scientific theory of mud, create completely artificial mud. Would this mud than be excluded from being influenced by magic? I don\'t think it could be.
Originally posted by Seytra
As for your strength-enhancing armour powered by steam: I hate it. Anyway, it will not work due to lack of water (tank can only be tiny). Furthermore, it will not work because it\'d be too crude unless you imply modern-tech valves and pressure- powered actuators. IOW, it would be bulky at best. Not to mention that it\'d be kinda warm to have a nice, cozy fire burning inside your backpack all the time, while pipes (made of metal, I presume), filled with ~90?C - tempered water or even hotter steam, run along your body! Of course, you _could_ insulate the temperature, but this would be a matter of extreme bulkiness. It would add to armor, though...
For screaming out loudly !!!First you\'re talking about magic , then you\'re talking about scientific stuff and giving scientific explanations to evey thing and you\'re proving that it can\'t exist !!! You\'re taking it to real!!! BUT TOGETHER WITH IT YOU\'RE THINKING THAT MAGIC CAN DO EVERYTHING !!! Think about eveything as if it\'s in FANTASY world .
Why should I, really? Why will a fantasy world\'s non-magical properties inevitably have to be substantially different from our world? In fact, fantasy worlds are so much like our world, if you take magic away, they really could be our world.
Originally posted by lucius
Or stop talking crap about magic and how it can improve our modern technology !!! You\'re forgeting that it\'s not existing IRL !!!
First, why would I need to stop talking this \"crap\", as you refer to it, as it obviously is meant as an example?
Second, what makes you think I forget, even for a second, that magic does not exist IRL? I\'m perfectly aware of this fact, thank you very much.
Also, please do not call my reasoning or examples \"crap\" just because you don\'t agree with them or don\'t like them, OK? Once you prove me utterly wrong you may call it \"crap\", but unless you do so it\'s a point as valid as any of yours. Also, please stick to maintaining a minimum of politeness even if you can prove someone wrong.
FYI, there actually are RPG settings in something like our modern-day world (or even more advanced worlds), in which magic co-exists with science. As I already said, in these worlds, magic works on the scientific stuff as well as on non-scientific stuff. That\'s my point: to state that the concept of magic and tech being mutually exclusive is just one way to handle magic and science, there are other ways, whcih are, IMO, better (=more \"realistic\").
Originally posted by lucius
And for GOD sake !!! Stop using all of those \"IRL , IMO , IIRC\" and other stuff like that . I don\'t even understand half of it !!!
Well ,exept IRl=in real life ... I think ...
No, I will not. These abbreviations shorten the most commonly used phrases and I take advantage of this. I\'m not alone with this, BTW, it\'s very common on the web, really. It is inconvenient at first read, but there\'s good reason for it. Do a websearch on \"TLA\" or \"emoticons\" (yes they are often listed on the same pages as emoticons) and you\'ll find sites that explain the meaning of them, but most really are obvious in the context they are used within. And IMO, using more than one \"!\" is more annoying than these acronymes, as the latter actually serve a purpose, whereas the \"!\"s most of the time do not (one simgle \"!\" usually is sufficient to emphasize the sentence unless it\'s a really groundbreaking one). Also, may I remind you that you yourself are using these acronymes (lol)?
For your convenience, I\'ll list the most common ones I use at the end of this post.
Originally posted by lucius
I used that conseption with laws of nature to seperate magic from science . Otherwise there would be no point chosing one ore another . The whole idea will simply loose it\'s interest to people .
Maybe to you, but not to me. I don\'t believe that any science, and be it magic, can only be of use when used exclusively, our tech proves this. I strongly believe magic would be a science like every other science as well, if it did exist. And I believe that any science can be used to improve other sciences, especially magic can. But any designer of magic can choose to limit magic to anything they please. Hell, they can, having the same justification as anybody else, make magic only work on things that are green! They don\'t even need any explanation for it.
Originally posted by lucius
To what Zorium said ...
I didn\'t maent to offend anybody with those words ... I wanted to make an example of how they used something without of interest why it\'s happening ... I hope all those who got offended with my words will accept my apologies .
Not knowing what happens does not equal to not having interest in what happens. Their background IMO may just as well simply not have given them ways to understand it, I wouldn\'t know, as I already said.
This could easily apply to experimenting as well: they wish to know how to make something but they don\'t want to know how exactly this works (chemistry when they didn\'t know about atoms and molecules, etc.).
Originally posted by lucius
Japanece blacksmiths started working on katanas in 11th or 12 century if I\'m not mistaken ... again .
(But monkies don\'t know anything about kinetic energy .... )
See chemistry above, but this may be a valid point if we knew weather or not the japanese accidently stumbeled accross grinding or if they tried it to see what happens.
Originally posted by lucius
About mixing iron and steel ...
Iron swirds were flexible , unlike swords made out of steel ... Blacksmiths wanted to make swords out of stel more flexible ... Maybe I was wrong when I said that they mixed both iron and steel ore ... But they used them both in creation of swords . That way their swords were both flexible and hard ... Maybe it wasn\'t as strong as pure steel , but it wouldn\'t brake if heavy axe would hit it ...
AFAICS, they altered the mixture of \"steel\" they used. There are many different \"steels\" out there, one of them being \"stainless steel\". Their mixtures vary widely, but they all are referred to as \"steel\". So they used a different \"steel\", which had more iron in it, which gave it more flexibility, but maybe made it less hard. A tradeoff.
Definition of internet acronymes:
FYI = For Your Information
IMO = In My Opinion
IIRC = If I Remember Correctly
IRL = In Real Life, as you already guessed.
AFAIK = As Far As I Know
AFAICS = As Far As I Can See
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why does it matter how our magic works, honestly that depends on your character.
we dont know enough about the setting o really say how it works, like in d&d arcane magic was knowledge and components cobined to create a certain effect, it just happened. Divine magic was granted from the gods, and in the same way it just happened.
we dont know if there is a diety over magic or not, we dont even know how to use it (well.. a few of us do =) )
you are suggesting that all magic my maniulation of the laws of nature.. thats fine, you can ahve your character do that, maybe a follower of alathi (i think thats it) will say thattheir goddess stretches her own magic to do the task, or a person might roleplay that he is a psion, or someone with a telekenetic power could say they have an invisible arm. in truth it really doesn\'t matter how it works, it being a game. So you can say whatever you want.
an example
super uber retnia explosion
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mp:30
glyphs:i\'ll let you figure that
effect
in order to cast user must bend over, and farts. then an invisible aid from another plane will appear and create fire behind you thus making a really big fire ball
variant: subject bends over and farts, the aid of the magical glyphs creates a spark thus errupting into a fire ball.
variant: subject plugs himself..eventually subject burps, place torch at mouth, creating either a fire ball
note: effect varies on what you\'ve eaten and how much you\'ve drank.
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do you see my point? you can say whatever you want, all in all, a fireball is gonna come.
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sorry just to clarify:
when i said Sci-Fi i meant technology, future and such, like say, Starcraft, when i say fantasy i mean Warcraft.....
i dont like the idea of having robots running around because this is supposed to be a fantasy world. however, in a \"Sci-Fi\" world i would also not like elves running around with magic.... i just dont think the two fit, IMO
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Well the only reason that science didn?t really take off in the medieval times was because it was looked @ like wizardry & they were beheaded or burned @ the steak etc. like describe above?
Magic was sort of the science of medieval times?
I would think that they would be one in the same in this game?
Well I would like to be emerged in a magically world were all the regular physics are tweaked & manipulated everywhere by everything?
Lots of magical creatures & whatnot, otherwise you just get allot of dumb grunts to hack & slash? Magic would be more complicated then science more as an art.
I would like to see worriers going to blacksmiths with mages that will magically enhance there weapons magically mixing or purifying ore?.
Just some stuff I was thinking of?
Isn?t this a strange post? --------------------->>>>>>>>>>>
Oh & I thought this is sort of funny (Starwars Game Mod I Think):
(http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/info/jk2/link3/link05.jpg)(http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/info/jk2/link3/link04.jpg)
Anyways this just doesn?t seam right?
(http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/info/jk2/link3/link02.jpg)
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haha nice pics Zeraph, Link is my fave character in super smash bros, and i love star wars games, i wish i had the money to play Galaxies, but then i found planeshift.... but anyways, i totally agree with u about magic, that was basically what i was trying to say, that science and magic dont coexist, they are two diff ways of doing things, no point in having both because they are really the same......and i like to be a warrior, and i think it would be awesome if i had a wizard friend to enchant my weapons to do certain things......
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Way to stay with it Seytra! Educating the world, one at person at a time.
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Now about your \"sword and katana\" thing ... Katana is the sword . And swords wern\'t made so easily as you think . Did you knew that in England in 14th century , blacksmiths used mix of iron and steal to create swords . Such mix gave to the swords fexibility of iron and hardness of steel at the same time . And they wern\'t so crude at all . That mix had scientific origins ...
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So you are saying that English blacksmiths made steel stronger by making it weaker, this makes no sense. If you do not understand what I\'m saying I shall fill you in, steel is stronger than iron BUT steel is an ALLOY not a METAL , steel is made of IRON and CARBON so why would anyone mix steel ALLOY with iron?
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Originally posted by Samoth
Way to stay with it Seytra! Educating the world, one at person at a time.
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Now about your \"sword and katana\" thing ... Katana is the sword . And swords wern\'t made so easily as you think . Did you knew that in England in 14th century , blacksmiths used mix of iron and steal to create swords . Such mix gave to the swords fexibility of iron and hardness of steel at the same time . And they wern\'t so crude at all . That mix had scientific origins ...
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So you are saying that English blacksmiths made steel stronger by making it weaker, this makes no sense. If you do not understand what I\'m saying I shall fill you in, steel is stronger than iron BUT steel is an ALLOY not a METAL , steel is made of IRON and CARBON so why would anyone mix steel ALLOY with iron?
I\'m sorry? What are you criticising? I did not post either of these things you quoted without author, so where do I come into play? The first quote was made by lucius, while the second one was made by Zorium.
@Midnight Falcon: I think Warcraft is a perfect example on how well science and magic actually _do_ mix, or at least co-exist, seeing that there are wizards and death knights, paladins and whatnot while there also are all these battleships, oil usage and improved armor, weapons, etc. True, the categories \"science\" and \"magic\" stick to themselves mostly, but still both do exist simultaneously.
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good point Seytra,
and that amount of technology is good i think, however i do not like the amount of technology that makes guns, and gun powder for things and such.... i guess what i mean to say is that i dont like advanced science and magic coexisting....i think the limit i would put would be anything electrical or requiring gun powder is too advanced IMO
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Hmm, the cannons on the ships _did_ use gunpowder or sth. similar in WC. But it also is my feeling that hand-held guns, as opposed to cannons, do not _feel_ right, despite their existance being justifiable. However, an average handheld gun (that could be justifiable) would have roughly the same power as a crossbow but fire _way_ slower than a bow and also slower than a crossbow and be less accurate than either crossbow or bow. However, a quickloader _might_ be justified, i.e. one in which bullet, powder and ignition go in seperate ways but at the same time, using three magazines. This would be a high-tech top-notch gun, however, and be very very hard to come by. I wouldn\'t like shells, though. Furthermore, any gun would be rather unreliable considering environmental conditions and manufacturing tech.
I would second the \"no electrical devices\" bill (with special exceptions for Frankensteins\' or other room / building sized devices).
Summarising it is more the transportability that makes one not like these techie things in a fantasy setting, probably because we all are used to this being the most obvious and well-known difference between modern day and medieval times.
While magic _could_ (and probably did) speed up this process, we are setting PS in a medieval world, thereby implying that, even magic, the sciences have not yet developed that far. This is entirely plausible as the population is quite limited (fewer brains -> fewer inventors -> fewer progress) and the world is still relatively young.
Therefore, ther is no contradiction in the PS world being young but already having medieval-tech.
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Seytra
My turn to say sorry. I was not criticizing. I was applauding your patience. I hate to see posts that are inaccurate, so ever bit helps.
Since this is fantasy I would like to see science and magic both be a big part of the world. Maybe even complement each other. How about adding copper to special shields so that electric magic attacks will dissipate faster.
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Samoth I know what your trying to say but copper would not be my choice of metal for a shield to resist electricity, I would prefer something slightly less conductive.
-Zorium
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@ Samoth: In this case, thanks! However, I can\'t take credit for these particular swords vs. katana posts (as stated above, I didn\'t post them). Anyway.
@ Zorium: I believe Samoth intended to short out the electricity created by the magic, not isolate it from the body. Depending on the way the electricity is delivered to the target, either approach could work or not work.
You could also use the lightning rod approach to conduct the electricity into the ground without affecting you. For this you would use some nonconductive material on the handle-side of the shield, and a conductive material like copper on the other side. This side would have a flexible, conducting lead touching the ground, through which the impacting lightning can bypass you.
An improved shiled could use silver fr the conductor as it is more conductive than copper, but more expensive, which is why it isn\'t used for cabling. You could also have the surfaces galvanised with gold so they will not oxidise, so the contact conductivity will not degrade. The insulation could be made of wood (beware of wet wood), but stone or glass / ceramic bolts would be better, allowing for an air gap between metal and wood so even wet wood isn\'t bad anymore. The wood could also be soaked with oil to prevent it from getting wet.
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Yes that shield may indeed work (wasn\'t really thinking of a practical solution but thinking more of the copper and electricty don\'t mix angle :P) though I\'m not going to be the first to attempt such a shield IRL :D
-Zorium
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my two cents... dont yell at me or nothing i just spent the last hour reading the increadably long posts ~.~ besides this is the Wish list part of the forums, this is what the fella would like to see in the game, he isnt saying its the be all end all of the game itself.
my oppinion: i think there should be a bit of this arguable tecnolagy. instead of making everything magic this and magic that ann oo look a pile of +5 longswords!! wow how dull, magic stuff should be rare and hard to come by. making magic things cant be easy after all. so to compensate for the loss of magic why not have these methods of making your sword better untill you can get a magic one. i think magic should out weigh the techno part of the game by ALOT but still it would be nice to be able to get stronger armor that is still lightweight w/o having to hunt down some PC/NPC to enchant the bloody thing.
as far as enchanting goes.. i think there should be some real time compensation. for example ((im going to get me head chewed off for some reason i know it)) there should be a trade in, you pay the mage and give him your armor. then you have to actualy wait for the armor to be upgraded. with a specified amount of time that is previously told to you by the mage. while your armor is in the shop you get a timer that you can look at to see how much time is left before you can go back an pick up that armor. there can be a hide and display for the timer as well to keep it from getting in the way of game play.
thats my 2 ... hmm longer post than i intened.... my 10 cents.. =)
~Sotojinsai~
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ok i just realized there is another page to this forum....
**looks at his watch**
2:50 AM.. for give me lol its late... early and i have been doing the whole forum thing for a long time today. just put that last post right under the last one on page one
i will get caught up tomarrow.. err later today... bah im going to bed!
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Why not have a similar system to the 1 that Sotojinsai suggested which allows people to temporarily buff their swords.
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Originally posted by Kuiper7986
Planeshift is sci-fi. Sci-Fi means science fiction, science fiction isn\'t real therefore Planeshift is also considered sci-fi.
By that reasoning I could compare you to a dog.
Kuiper is a dog. A dog is a mammal, Kuiper is also a mammal, therefore Kuiper is a dog.