PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Krissanasli on July 08, 2004, 06:23:51 pm
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After going through the whole database at mpogd, I found this game to be one of the five graphical RPGs that actually claimed to support role-playing. I don\'t need to spell out what this means, for PlaneShift and for online games in general...
As far as I could see when I logged on, there\'s a lot of potential for role-playing, but also a lot of things to discourage it. I\'m going to try to offer some solutions to the problems I\'ve encountered.
The first, and the most lethal to role-players of every kind, is the shout channel. Nobody wants to hear OOC chit-chat in the middle of a plot climax, or at any time when he or she is seriously role-playing. I couldn\'t find any option to mute this channel, but if there is one, it should probably be added to the player guide - make no mistake, the shout channel can and probably will turn off a good number of role-players.
There\'s also the \"/me\" command... This is a minor thing, but it would be nice if there were an emit option as well. It would add variety and make things more interesting to read.
Another problem is the hybrid nature of this game: you\'re just as likely to find role-players as you are to find hack&slashers. The fact that all players have both a job and combat skills also blurs them together. To get around this, I propose letting every player, at any point in the game, pick between several \"playing styles\" - role-playing, socializing, action and PVP. The \"who\" button would show not only names, but also playing styles, letting players know whether it\'ll be a quiet night at the arena or a bustling free-for-all.
Being allowed to do something besides hacking monsters is also useful to role-players. If some spells were purely utilitarian, and if a multiplayer element was added to the crafting skills, it would give players a way to interact meaningfully without having to crack open a poor monster\'s skull in the process.
Finally, role-playing is a minimalist affair. It doesn\'t need complex graphics, sophisticated tech or anything of the sort - in fact, it doesn\'t need graphics at all. It often relies more on the spirit of its players than on any gimmick. A very nice thing to have is a solid options menu, which allowed players with less than 1 Ghz in their processor to tone down the detail level. NWN allowed players to turn off pretty much everything... This is part of the reason why tabletop veterans play it.
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I don\'t need to spell out what this means, for PlaneShift and for online games in general...
Please do. Some of us have a hard time determining where roleplaying fits in between hack & slash and a chatroom.
Presumably the shout command will have a limited range in the next or future release. Someone in the dungeon will not be heard by someone in the city streets (unless it\'s a scream of ultimate suffering...)
I think multiplayer interactions in crafting and magic would be a big plus- it\'s easy enough for people to team up and hack on a monster, but since the social aspect is very important in roleplaying, multiplayer \"non-combat\" options should be encouraged. Bear in mind though, that this could be difficult to implement well - I think that the developers would like to have something playable working, as opposed to a whole list of \"really great ideas\" that never get finished because they just keep getting bigger.
Graphics wise, we hope that the Crystalspace engine gets better - switching to skeletal animation makes the game easier on memory but harder on the processor. Realistically, the game can only be \"toned down\" so far, but I also hope for some scaleability here.
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Please do.
I was trying to suggest that PlaneShift is unique, and that the internet seriously needs more games like it. Beyond that, I could only wail at the huge number of games that look identical. It jaded me that so many games promoted themselves by saying \"you can kill monsters, trade items and much, much more\" or \"do everything you want\" when I wanted a lot more than a killing spree.
Some of us have a hard time determining where roleplaying fits in between hack & slash and a chatroom.
There\'s an easy answer: nowhere. It doesn\'t fit between hack&slash and chatroom. Nothing does, except maybe Everquest clones. I\'ve met a lot of role-players who told me they hated sitting around and talking, and a lot of role-players who were more interested in the art of expression than in what they were really expressing. The thing that makes role-playing what it is is a devotion to the character - an interesting character who beats up people for a living can be just as enjoyable as an interesting character who gossips all day. It\'s something that, to a large extent, determines the player\'s actions rather than being a part of them.
One of the ways to tell if a game is serious about RPing is to see whether there\'s anything to do beside combat. This isn\'t because there\'s something RPish about non-combat options, but because hack&slashes typically focus on fighting. When I saw the words \"realism\" and \"civilian\" in Planeshift\'s presentation, it was like rediscovering my innocence... Finally, there was a game where I could really play whatever role I liked!
I think that the developers would like to have something playable working, as opposed to a whole list of \"really great ideas\" that never get finished because they just keep getting bigger.
You mean, like crouching and climbing?
Anyway, that really is a problem... A quick way to solve it would be to incorporate \"sparring\" (fighting without causing damage) once the combat animations were ready. Sometimes, it\'s not about adding new features, but removing the built-in limitations of those you already have.
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Yes, RP really depends on the RPer. However, ppl. who just want to level quickly will in any case ignore any RP features. Therefore, we need to _actively drive away_ the levellers, instead of only giving more opportunities for RP. We need to make it _impossible_ to level-grind, to harvest, to grief, etc.. This will leave only the ppl. who are at least somewhat serious about RP or at least who are not into disrupting the gameworld experience.
I mean, one is a lot more likely to RP if everybody else does it. Ppl. who dislike it will most likely quit or start to grief, making themselves prone to being reported to The Mods[TM] and banned.
Also, less-hardcore RPers can easily be driven away from RPing if they consistently encounter non-RP, which is another reason why we need to _actively get rid_ of as many non-RPers as we can.
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Actually, there are a few easy ways to enforce RP. I\'ve seen them in a small number of MUDs and PBPs, as well as most of the MUSHes out there. While some of them wouldn\'t be available for a graphical game (I\'m talking about the free-form aspect and the lack of eye candy), a few could be incorporated. I say \"could\" because they won\'t be - this game strives for the middle ground. Everything on the site and forums points to that.
-player applications (this would definitely cut down on the number of players... In fact, it might actually be a valid idea when the game gets too big)
-moderated skill gain (that is, you only earn skill points if the moderators hand them over, and can only write a petition for skills if several people agree to sign it for you)
-spray \"RP enforced\" all across the webside, the install program and the game\'s splash screen.
-ensure that monsters can\'t be killed, iron can\'t be mined and fish can\'t be harvested by newbies without some assistance.
-institute permadeath, a full PK policy and other pro-RP measures (believe me, I\'ve seen full PK policies that encouraged RP tremendously)
-slow down the pace of combat to make it too boring for action-seekers, but enjoyable to role-players (who might use the extra time to emote and taunt each other)
The game can still appeal to role-players without these things, though. Role-playing is mostly a trait of the players, not the game itself... Though the game might contribute to this playing style, in its own little ways. A \"think\" command (\\think in the chat window) would go a long way to improving RP, believe it or not... This is actually one of the most popular commands in RPI MUDs, even the ones that don\'t feature psionic PCs. A MUD admin once described her fondest memory as a chat between two characters - a noble and his servant - who, in between gusts of pretty dialog, expressed their worst hatred of each other using the \"think\" command.
One suggestion (and I\'m very serious about this) is to create role-playing societies... OOC guilds whose aim is to \"spread the word\" and, among other things, encourage new players to join the fun. They would do this through a variety of ways: RP logs (stories posted in the RP forum) of long-forgotten events to show the wonderful adventures they went through, engage in RP with hack&slashers in an effort to bring these towards the \"light side\" (or at least pull them somewhere into the grey area) and/or create plots (real, natural plots, not the stuff an admin sprinkles on a bored player society) that can only really be solved through role-playing. Things like RP seminars, while useful in their own way, would only appeal to people who were already interested in RP.
What do you think about this idea? And if there\'s already a RP society somewhere on these forums, where do I sign up?
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If the planeshift world is going to be big why not have and area where the hack & slashers could go (preferable somewhere far, far away)where few RPs will go (Perhaps just a few difficult quests there).
Also you could make player quests; i.e. Player X is a blacksmith and Player Y is a miner.
Player X goes and tells the tavern keeper that he wants some rare ore, player Y later talks to the tavern keeper and accepts the quest to mine some rare ore.
When player Y returns, the tavern owner gives him some tria or something. Then player x arrives and payes the tavern owner for the ore. If player X never comes back the taver owner then sells it to a shop.
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I know this wont happen but i would like to see a seperate server for hack and slashers, and another for the RPers. This way both parties will be happy, the hack and slashers wil be happy because they wont have RPers on thier backs for wrecking a storyline or the such. And the RPers will be happy that they are in an enviroment that every1 roleplays making it much more comftable and enjoyable to roleplay. Im aware that there probaly wont be 2 servers, but we can dream cant we.
However, ppl. who just want to level quickly
I came to belive that there would be no leveling and that you would only get extra skill talents. Talking of which, having no visible levels would encourage RPing because you couldnt go around saying \'im level 45 charcter, your only level 12, feel my wrath mwhahahaa\' it just shouldnt happen when RPing.
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Hello,
Because ps is a blank canvas you shouldnt really relie on ideas from members placed by from other games.. and go for wacky new ones because in doing this specialy quests you increase the RP feel of the game.. already there is the obvious RP feel being that your character is not human.. and the point that you get different skills and not levels is also good but with the tallents i think that instead of having just the one you should be able to have them all.. but they strength of that tallent should be determind by how much you use it..
i.e say you want to be a cook you dont just choose it on your character.. you earn it.. you have to go out and cook things... the more you cook the more exp you get towards your cooking skill.. and the same for the other skills.. because this would give a better sense of it being RP rather than that skill just suddenly being there allready... it would also mean that you could go out and hunt for your food or stay with in the city walls and pick mushrooms and vegatables.. or interact them with other players and there tallents such as ones that have a farming skill of a high level could grow crops witch a player trying to raise its cookery skill could purchase off of him...
Many thanks,
Danny
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Because ps is a blank canvas you shouldnt really relie on ideas from members placed by from other games
Some people aren\'t \"placed\" from other games - they come with their own ideas, ideas that might have been the very reason they left those games. As for Molecular Blue being a pre-alpha version, I find it a wonderful reason to talk about role-play, especially since right now, even though there\'s nothing to do *but* role-play, nobody does it consistently... And few people do it at all.
already there is the obvious RP feel being that your character is not human
That doesn\'t always generate an RP feel... In fact, it rarely does, since it demands a greater emotional effort on the player\'s part. You can\'t relate to a truly strange creature as well as to a human (and by \"truly strange\", I don\'t mean cat-people or elves...), which means you can\'t role-play one as easily. Since every character *is* human, more or less, I suppose it\'s not an issue. Sure, there might be slight differences between the kran and the xacha, but not enough to make them truly distinct.
because this would give a better sense of it being RP rather than that skill just suddenly being there allready...
Gaining skills detracts from the role-playing experience, and adds a new (unworthy) goal to crafting, fishing or whatever. I agree that learning new \"job\" skills ought to be allowed, under certain restraints and in ways that encourage RP. In the end, one must consider that a person will only be physically able to do one job (or, in some rare cases, two) at peak efficiency, so having more than one \"job\" skill wouldn\'t realistically make a difference to the overall economy.
Anyway, it doesn\'t matter whether people can grow crops, build toy tops or fit pearls into a necklace, as defined by a set of skills... Role-playing has little to do with that. In the right contexts, they can encourage both RP and powergaming.
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Gaining skills detracts from the role-playing experience
your just being lazy... having a none human character no matter what you say is already role playing... and gaining skills is even more so... if the skill was just given to you it would be boring and unlike you i dont want to stand around doing nothing... id rather gain that skill and be proud of it than be given the skill for nothing...
many thanks,
Danny
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Having a non-human Char does have absolutely _nothing_ to do with roleplaying. As long as you don\'t give it a personality it\'s just a non-human looking image. Your statement suggests that having a human character equates to non-RP, which IMNSHO is entirely untrue.
You can do an _extremely_ good RP with entirely human characters and you can completely kill any RP even when having a non-human character. It all depends _entirely_ on you, not on your character. The character you choose is usually chosen to aid your RP, in the sense that you may feel more comfortable with a human char as you can more easily think up a personality for it, whila a non-human char can help you by giving a clearly defined set of distinctions that you can use to base your RP on and make up a personality or at least a set of traits (i.e. an Enki might lend itself more easily to a burglar than a human, while you might have less difficulty imagining a personality for a human burglar).
Gaining skill has indeed nothing to do with RP. It just gives variation to your RP as you come in contact with other ppl. due to the increased skills. However, indeed skill gains encourage PG, but I honestly believe that there are only _very very few_ ppl. who only wish to RP and _not_ to gain anything (after all, what\'s the real difference between skills and mones / items? Zero.
You have quests, so youneed skills. Skill gain can help you change your mind later or to refine your set of skills to better suit your style, but of course it also strongly encourages PG.
Therefore, you can view the current version of PS to be the purest MMORPG there ever will be, if it were not for the crystals (maybe AB was even better in this respect). In this sense, it\'s only going to become worse. However, being a RP/PG ba$tard (and I also believe that most ppl. are), I welcome options to gain things (material or immaterial in the immaterial game world), as long as they are not too important, i.e. as long as you can still have a good gaming experience (like do quests or other stuff) without them.
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id rather gain that skill and be proud of it than be given the skill for nothing...
I\'d like to gain skill points after a long RP session, where someone explained actual, real-life principles of whatever craft he taught me. It\'s more rewarding overall, as I learn a great deal of information that easily goes into memory (since I\'m enjoying myself while I\'m learning it).
Think of skill gain as sex. Would you rather \"work hard\", or savour it as the fulfillment of a warm, delightful evening?
I honestly believe that there are only _very very few_ ppl. who only wish to RP and _not_ to gain anything
*raises hand*
Consider the MUSHes and that work perfectly well without item gain or anything like that. Sure, people want to gain *something*, and they do. They gain understanding, knowledge, emotional sophistication and everything else role-playing has to offer (in copious doses). Also, remember that in games like Kyrandia 2, you lost all your items at several \"checkpoints\". But that didn\'t matter... They were useless. Your purpose in that game was to make progress and enjoy the puzzles/humour, not carry the biggest heap of trash around. In Kyrandia 1, gems could be found in the open... While you could\'ve picked them up, it was considered pointless.
(You know, Kyrandia was a paradise... Think about how lovely it was to have gemstones on the ground and flowers blooming in their beds, always ready to be picked. Now think about what it would be like if someone made a Kyrandia MMORPG... People would be running around the village, scooping gemstones and throwing them into the altar for ph4t fl3w7z. Sounds familiar?)
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There\'s an old, yet very interesting and worthwhile thread you should read.
RolePlaying in its purest form (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=7312&boardid=13&sid=4fd003fde37339d22616385c5b81f127)
You have my support Krissanasli, along with many others. :)
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I actually read this two days after my first post. Looking at its size and scope, I wouldn\'t dare call it a thread... It\'s probably more of a hemp rope.
Oh, and I encourage everyone to read it. The whole nine pages of it. There\'s talk about how role-playing should be encouraged and carried out, a few discussions on what role-playing actually is and links to major RPG-related articles, as well as some interesting trivia on leetspeak and d&d.
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Well, obviously my interpretation of RPG differs from yours, Krissanasli. As I already stated I like to RP but I also enjoy gaining things (maybe I just haven\'t seen the light yet ;) ).
I\'ve read the first few pages of the long thread and I agree with Mogura\'s post (1st page) on this issue except that I\'m probably not going to talk much at all. Still, I\'ll definitely trying to make absolutely sure I don\'t disrupt anybody\'s RP. I therefore would be really pleased with an OOC chat which I can use _if_ I have a question and don\'t feel like RPing it (I consider myself in a cave somewhere, hours of travel from the nearest house, asking myself \"was that orange building in Hydlaa the temple of Laanx or of the other guy, what\'s it\'s name?\". While I could ask this IC (after going back eventually), what if I\'d rather RP a char that knows this stuff? Or doesn\'t care? I\'d also like not to have to use a different programm like IRC to do that, or even a browser, since this _totally_ ruins the immersion. OOC talk reduces it, but doesn\'t kill it since there still is the view into the world. Also, it\'d be good if one could just close the OOC (and even IC) chats if one just doesn\'t want to have it right now.
I also like to see my char (no matter how unrealistic this might be) so I\'d wish a 3rd person camera view. I can immerse better if I can _see_ my char so I\'m constantly reminded _what_ I am. FP mode is nice (and I occasionally use it), but I prefer 3d person mode if it\'s done well. When it fails (i.e. if I\'m standing right in front of a wall), I default to FP mode. I\'m also a big fan of minimaps as I tend to get lost in game worlds. The maps should however not show anybody except me and maybe markers I put onto it, and also only areas that I\'ve either visited or otherwise gotten to know. There could also be a sketch-version like you get when someone is just describing the area. They obviously aren\'t going to mention every single tree if it\'s not important somehow.
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It really is going to be a hard thing for people to stick in their roles there will always be the people who decide #@%@ this lets go crazy and annoy people!
You can\'t force someone to RolePlay they have to WANT to do it, some people have a passion in it others well their meant to do other things you know?
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i think its because RP means something different to every one... to me role playing would be playing a none human character and gain expereience to become better and stronger along the way... personaly id like to see a range of quests that cater for every one... quests for those that love to RP and not raise skills (no exp) and then quests for those that want to RP and yet still gain skills. and quests for those that just want to be the strongest in the fastes time possible.
if you create quests for everyone one then you have a better chance of keeping the newbs at bay..
Many thanks,
Danny
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People Role Play in different ways. You have your hardcore role players who don\'t advance there character stats was but only story wise amongst common Hardcore Role Players. They believe this is the way things should be and all none role players should be thrown away. Which is selfish and never will happen. Then you have gamer role players who will level up and build there story around the game. And have adventures. The role playing with these types can be less dynamic then Hardcore Role Players but is still fun cause you get to play and experience a fantasy story.
I understand it is hard to play with people who don\'t role play and run around like idiots talking but their are ways to get around that Such as blacklisting (I don\'t know if PS has this). And in all my times playing Final Fantasy not once did i come across anyone who talked like this \"3l33t n00bs pwn j00!\". I mean it really isn\'t as bad as everyone makes it out to be. IN final fantasy there were roleplayers and then gamers. Gamers usually go about there own business leveling and they\'ll ask you to help them Level but you can refuse and move on. If they bug you report them for harrassment or sometihng :P. We all have to learn to play in harmony, and I doubt any Power Gamers will take interest in Plane Shift because it is very story involved and already has a highly RP based community as I can see.
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I also like to see my char (no matter how unrealistic this might be) so I\'d wish a 3rd person camera view.
Actually, I never imagine the world through my character\'s eyes when I\'m playing a PBP or MUD. It\'s not unrealistic at all - you\'re simply not your character.
I\'d argue that a third-person view can improve role-playing regardless of the kind of RPer you are. For example, it\'s easier to run for long distances in FP mode, partly because you just don\'t see how ridiculous your character looks, or how hard it must be to jog in full armor - instead, you see he\'s making progress faster. The top-down view of the default camera is especially useful, as it allows you to take advantage of things the game engine doesn\'t provide, like footsteps and other audio cues.
By the way, I almost never seem to find anyone willing to role-play in Hydlaa... When are you on?
i think its because RP means something different to every one
I think philantropy means something different to everyone, too. Saint Augustine believed it meant killing the heathens - he even considered it an act of love. I\'m sure it would\'ve been impossible for me to argue with the saint if he were using his definition of kindness, and I were using mine. When talking about something, it\'s important to understand that concepts, not words, are being addressed. Here, Seytra and I described how controlling a non-human puppet encourages neither immersion into a character, nor the development of that character. That\'s what role-playing meant. What you describe is traditionally called powergaming - the kind of thing portrayed on Progress Quest.
A static quest would never please any serious role-player. It would nonetheless encourage ridiculous behaviour, just as crystal hunts do now.
Role-players usually don\'t think of \"quests\", but situations in which they take part, willingly or not. They simultaneously act as \"story NPCs\" and PCs tied into various plots. A hero in one story may easily become a fragment of another, simply by giving directions to some outcast or whining about a merchant\'s corrupt dealings to a stranger. We never see this happen in a single-player RPGs, where a static and pre-scripted world exists for the hero\'s pleasure... What the designers of MMORPGs ignore when imitating single-player \"quests\" is that, for questing to even exist, someone, somewhere must be willing to pay for mercenary work; others must be willing to guide the \"hero\" along, if they can; and others still must be willing to oppose him. You can\'t do that with scripting, at least not in an effective way. Characters are a pre-requisite of solid quests, and without them, nothing remotely close to single-player quests will happen. This is why only a world where role-playing is dominant will ever produce real adventures. It takes a critical mass of RPers to make the game work.
if you create quests for everyone one then you have a better chance of keeping the newbs at bay
How so?
They believe this is the way things should be and all none role players should be thrown away. Which is selfish and never will happen
Actually, I don\'t believe that people should never advance in stats, even though I consider myself a hardcore RPer. I\'m all for a regulated, perhaps RP-based skill-raising system, which allowed players to assign, say, one skill point a month, if they actually trained in it, or up to three points if they devoted most of their IC time to training things. Another system would involve the use of \"activities\" - you always had an \"activity\" like \"sparring\" and \"socializing\" selected, and the game calculated how much of your time was spent on which activities. You could always choose any activity you wanted, and if it later turned out that you \"lied \" to the server, OOC penalities would apply. Despite the arbitrary nature of these methods, I doubt anyone would have problems with them - intelligent consent is, after all, one of the principles of role-playing.
As for who should be let into an RPG, all potential role-players (which includes a good number of hack&slashers) deserve that, whether they know anything or not. Armageddon used a lot of techniques to gently pressure its new players - you simply *had* to role-play to get anywhere. I\'ve read countless stories about people who came into the game knowing very little about role-playing, and gradually becoming RP experts thanks to the community\'s assistance. All those who don\'t want to role-play, but aren\'t willing to disturb the IC game, might as well be allowed in too... However, I can\'t see why it\'s selfish to ask shameless powergamers to mind their own levels. That\'s like a campus-based forum, strictly devoted to the university\'s affairs, being \"selfish\" for not letting people come in and chat about their daily lives inside it.
Of course, I\'m talking about RPGs in general here. After reading a few of the developers\' posts, I have no doubt in my mind that Planeshift will cater to powergamers.
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say you were to create 4 quests for the HC RPers and 1 for the mild RPers the mild RPers will have nothing todo.. they will become bord and will turn to anoying others or searching for bugs to exploit. if you create 2 for hc rpers and 2 for the mild rpers every one is happy because they can interchange from hc rping to mild (where they can raise there stats now and then..)
obviously there wont just be 2 quests but i used 2 because it was easier to explain..
the more of a range of quests you have such as quests that the story is more important than stats (for hc rpers.) and then others where you can raise your stats or stats or more important.. then that way every one is happy because they can change/choose what quests todo.. meaning less anoying trouble making newbs.. newbs arnt newbs when busy.. newbs are newbs when they have nothing todo..
Many thanks,
Danny
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I agree with Danny. We can make everything even for both groups of players so they can live in harmony. Making the game strictly roleplaying would upset a whole new variety of people. We all got to consider balance. Don\'t think of a Strictly Role Playing PS as the onyl solution. I say we all brainstorm peacefully on ideas on a system that Role Players and Power gamers can live in harmony even despite the odd st00pid n00b :P who will get bored and drop out of the game eventually.
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well as i stated in my \"my ideas\" thread, the answer is simple, make the world a huge vast wildernes lightly dottted with towns and in game kilometers about 3 kilometers out is a attack zone where pvp will take place voulontary or non voulentary. but in groups you would travel and get bored so sit and set up a came and thus role play by fending off monster ect.ect.
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Yes but some role players want to travel the world and live their stories without interuptions. I think one tihng to be doen is to said up a Etiquite article or sometihng in plainshift explaining that you shouldn\'t use out of world terms to maximise playing for everyone. I seen sometihng liek this kicking around a site and it looked good. If everyone followed the simple rules then people could live a lil happier. And if you don\'t want people talking like this \"3leet pwns w00t\" then maybe numbers in planeshift chat could be disabled so everyone would have to right the numbers out although writing out 1,345,678,233,987 would prove difficult. And also if converstion with NPCs could be broadly expanded then people would be forced to learn proper grammar to talk to them and then more then likely talk properly around the normal populous. I dont know just an idea.
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The only way the game will be good for every one and i do mean every one would be to make it fair.. if you have a range of quests the Hc role players can stick to what they want to do, they can interact with the npcs and other players and really get into the story.. and they can ignore the mild rpers because the hunting/skill raising quests would be out side of the city.. ( not in new citys just out side and the npcs would be in the city. this ways its fair for all they have there own sections but yet can still interact with every one and if they get board they can always swap from hc-mild and mild-hc just to see what it would be like...
Many thanks,
Danny
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good idea but how about rather this, when you type 3 it spells three instead of 3 that way
instead of
1337 !-!4x0r
it would be
onethreethreeseven !-!fourxzeror
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i dont understand what the number writing has to do with the role playing feel of the game?.. and there shouldnt be a reason to type a number more than a 4 digit number.. which isnt hard...
Many thanks,
Danny
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@Black_rose: I understand you hate of those 1337 morons, but that\'s a bit impractical, if not interesting.
I think a good solution is to have a seperate channels for rp-ers.
Personally, I think the Shout channel should\'t be for rp\'ing, I mean since when do I shout my every action across the whole continent?? (I know we\'re in a Stagmilite) Since when does someone care? I mean, saying
*Harwen looks up at the sky, takes a deep breath and walks into the tavern. *
Across the whole world wouldn\'t maek much sense and would suck.
If you and your friends want to rp, make a Group channel or buddy channel where you talk directly to your friends that you choose, or perhaps your whole buddy list. perhaps you can exclude people from that list who don\'t feel like Rp\'ing?
This solves many problems, including insistant jerks who flame people in-game for ruining their rp experience because they feel like its personally their sole, right and duty to uphold some invisible law.
If you want to rp in /say then whatever, its a risk you take that somebody, who has all the right in the world, to say, \"How do I make the game fullscreen?\".
You will be able to ignore different channels, and if you\'re going to rp with perfect strangers, who have different ideas, try to comprimise.
@ Detan: That\'s unrealistic, and selfish to say the least, its a game, get a grip, there will always be interruptions, like hmm, having kids to take care of, like some of us do. You\'re going to piss off just because some lady went \"OCC: Sorry, afk, need to feed my baby\"?
Until we\'re able to physically talk to each other in the game this won\'t be possible. Rp\'ing with voice is alot easier than in typing form, but technology prevents this.
Yes, its a role-playing game, but what\'s another key word in that? GAME...yes, its just a game, get a grip. The other character has full right to talk OCC, its their interpretation of what the RPG element in MMORPG is....they might be kids who are learning, they might be adults who are learning.
Deal with it. Hardcore RP\'ers should learn some tolerance, as well as people who don\'t RP\' ever.
Mutual respect is the key, then again, thats the key to harmony and peace throughout the world, and well, we still have war...
GM\'s monitor \"Public\" RP channels simple rules could be in effect. Simple.
For those who don\'t want to read the whole thing:
My solution:
Role-Playing Channels, Private group chat, private chat, Friend-List chat, and shout should not be a role-playing channel...ever. Learn respect and tolerance. Then again, its an online game. GM\'s monitor RP channels.
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Originally posted by Harwen
Yes, its a role-playing game, but what\'s another key word in that? GAME...yes, its just a game, get a grip. The other character has full right to talk OCC, its their interpretation of what the RPG element in MMORPG is....they might be kids who are learning, they might be adults who are learning.
Sorry, no chance here.
1) This game is an RP game, NOT an OOC game. Therefore, RP is the prime factor and should be given maximum priority in design decisions.
2) Of course OOC will not go away, it will not be avoidable and can\'t be removed, Therefore, one must cater to it so that it will not be in-game.
By this I mean that there needs to be a special, designated OOC area and / or some channels, maybe even privately creatable ones. This way, the IC talk would go through the normal game and the OOC stuff would be an extra window that can be closed if you don\'t want to be botered by this stuff.
3) Of course there will be the need to say \"brb\", but talk about the last game of soccer clearly does have no place outside the designated OOC area.
Originally posted by Harwen
Deal with it. Hardcore RP\'ers should learn some tolerance, as well as people who don\'t RP\' ever.
Yes, but only to some degree. Because IMO RPers don\'t have to accept OOC talk where only IC is meant to be (like ingame!). As I said, it\'s an RPG and not an OOCG. Give the OOCers an OOC area and they will not even bother to use IC areas for it because they are equally annoyed by the constant RP and \"please no OOC here\" going on.
Originally posted by Harwen
Mutual respect is the key, then again, thats the key to harmony and peace throughout the world, and well, we still have war...
There can only be respect and harmony if all sides have a minimun of space, not just physical space. If you force the OOCers into the IC areas by not providing OOC areas, there will be clashes. The same will happen if you force the RPers into the OOC areas. Why not simply add a fr*ggin\' OOC chat? And yes, it\'s still my opinion that the OOC needs to go into the \"smoker\'s areas\", simply because it\'s an RPG, not an OOCG, as I already stated, and that OOC is the unpleasant / unwelcome factor and therefore needs to move.
I wish to have the RP in the game world, not restricted to buddylists and such stuff, because of the realism. And I don\'t want to play using /tell, because it s*cks. And you need to /tell every single person if you\'re not RPing with only 1 other person. This is much more feasible for OOC. After all, the thread is about _encouraging RP_, not about _making RP harder than necessary\" or \"maximising OOC talk\".
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:rolleyes: I was just trying to talk about a comprimise, its not like you\'re disgracing every RPG ever made if you don\'t role-play, Maybe making it less-written-in-stone sounding would encourage people to try it out.
It\'s just a little intimidating for the average player. I\'m sure its no problem for the common hardcore-rp
er.
I don\'t see where you are offended by having seprate chat-channels.
How about your RP\'ing ruining my RP\'ing? Perhaps I\'ll have different views on how to interpret the History or Yliakum.
Anyways, encouraging RP\'ing I\'ve thought about in some games, since it has to do with imagination and creativity its a little hard to reward, if that is seen as encouragement. Perhaps then, discouraging OCC talk, especially annoying and ever aggravating \"1337 5p34k\" with consequences or even punishment. Definetly player names will have to be filtered to include cohesive and acceptible names i.e. \"Cloud, Squall Leonheart, H4x0r124,\" or some more ridiculous names. Lack of using proper channels would be punishable by muting possibly after a warning, keeping confused or otherwise annoying individuals out of the wrong channels.
I\'m at a ways on how to encourage something personal, like an art teacher grading art...Should any RP\'ing whatsoever be rewarded?
Oh, and also, I said there should be OOC and IC spaces, so they wouldn\'t clash. But if this isn\'t wanted, perhaps this punishment/discouraging system is fine...
Again, for those who don\'t want to read the whole thing: Encourage RP\'ing by punishing or discouraging excessive OCC, or providing proper channels for Help, Guilds, e.t.c.
and remember, take it easy, its a game afterall :]
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Originally posted by Harwen
:rolleyes: I was just trying to talk about a comprimise, its not like you\'re disgracing every RPG ever made if you don\'t role-play, Maybe making it less-written-in-stone sounding would encourage people to try it out.
It\'s just a little intimidating for the average player. I\'m sure its no problem for the common hardcore-rp
er.
I don\'t see where you are offended by having seprate chat-channels.
Obviously I got you wrong, then. I thought you meant to have the game world be OOC and one needed to use /tell or a buddylist-chat for RP.
Originally posted by Harwen
How about your RP\'ing ruining my RP\'ing? Perhaps I\'ll have different views on how to interpret the History or Yliakum.
Yes, that can happen. But it\'s still far from a game of soccer being discussed.
Originally posted by Harwen
Anyways, encouraging RP\'ing I\'ve thought about in some games, since it has to do with imagination and creativity its a little hard to reward, if that is seen as encouragement.
I don\'t really see an option to otherwise encourage it than to provide stimuli for creativity, which IMO PS already does.
Originally posted by Harwen
Perhaps then, discouraging OCC talk, especially annoying and ever aggravating \"1337 5p34k\" with consequences or even punishment. Definetly player names will have to be filtered to include cohesive and acceptible names i.e. \"Cloud, Squall Leonheart, H4x0r124,\" or some more ridiculous names. Lack of using proper channels would be punishable by muting possibly after a warning, keeping confused or otherwise annoying individuals out of the wrong channels.
I think in any case this would be necessary, because everywhere will be ppl. who simply enjoy destroying things, be it material stuff or the pleasure of others. If they can do it by talking OOC in the game without being muted or whatever they will. We already had trolls with only ~25 players!
Originally posted by Harwen
I\'m at a ways on how to encourage something personal, like an art teacher grading art...Should any RP\'ing whatsoever be rewarded?
It should, but I see few ways to do it. One option would be to have a system where players can vote for each other, but this begs to be abused.
Maybe if we had GMs randomly and invisibly spying on the RP channels to find (and reward, even if it\'s just a simple \"well done\") ppl. who are serious about RP (not necessarily be excellent RPers, might as well be newbies!)? This would probably add an incentive to RP, as the chance of missing \"the\" chance always looms!
Originally posted by Harwen
Oh, and also, I said there should be OOC and IC spaces, so they wouldn\'t clash. But if this isn\'t wanted, perhaps this punishment/discouraging system is fine...
See above. Also, I think we need both.
similar to what was originally posted by Harwen
Encourage RP\'ing by punishing or discouraging excessive OCC and providing proper channels for Help, Guilds, e.t.c. within the PS client
and remember, take it easy, its a game afterall :]
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Originally Posted by Seytra Obviously I got you wrong, then. I thought you meant to have the game world be OOC and one needed to use /tell or a buddylist-chat for RP.
Of of course not, I was seeing it more like, let the little OOC\'ers have their seperate channels so they can leave the RP\'ers alone. Of course, the main channel would still be the IC channel, the OOC\'s would be secondary channels that you would use to discuss in-game stuff. I believe that the OOC should be about things in game, like bugs, glitches weapon selling ( though that could be done IC style, preferably :] ) talking to GM\'s and the like. Personally, the game is the game, not a chat room, that\'s that /tell is for.
Perhaps its my fault for typing like I rant. :(
still @ Seytra: I agree that such a voting system could be abused, any other way would be impractical, you\'d have to have a GM sit there all day...its a little confusing. Again, like grading art, or putting a price on art.
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Originally posted by Harwen
Originally Posted by Seytra Obviously I got you wrong, then. I thought you meant to have the game world be OOC and one needed to use /tell or a buddylist-chat for RP.
Of of course not, I was seeing it more like, let the little OOC\'ers have their seperate channels so they can leave the RP\'ers alone. Of course, the main channel would still be the IC channel, the OOC\'s would be secondary channels that you would use to discuss in-game stuff. I believe that the OOC should be about things in game, like bugs, glitches weapon selling ( though that could be done IC style, preferably :] ) talking to GM\'s and the like. Personally, the game is the game, not a chat room, that\'s that /tell is for.
Ouch, then I got you totally wrong! O.O So in reality I was suggesting more catering to OOC than you (as I wouldn\'t even mind complerely off-topic chats, but only if this can be accepted in terms of bandwith and server capacity)! Right, then, so we had a disagreement over nothing. :)
Originally posted by Harwen
Perhaps its my fault for typing like I rant. :(
I don\'t know, pure text sometimes completely fails to get accross meaning despite trying hard. That\'s why my posts tend to be long: so It\'ll be clear what I mean. But even this doesn\'t always work. :(
Originally posted by Harwen
still @ Seytra: I agree that such a voting system could be abused, any other way would be impractical, you\'d have to have a GM sit there all day...its a little confusing. Again, like grading art, or putting a price on art.
Yes, unfortunately. But maybe the voting system could be limited to 2proven\" players (like playtime), and abuse results in no chance of ever voting again. also, limited impact of one vote (like needing ~ 50 votes to effect something), and any player can only vote once a week week (and maybe only once in a month for the same person).
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Originally posted by Seytra
Yes, unfortunately. But maybe the voting system could be limited to 2proven\" players (like playtime), and abuse results in no chance of ever voting again. also, limited impact of one vote (like needing ~ 50 votes to effect something), and any player can only vote once a week week (and maybe only once in a month for the same person).
Hmm, then that makes me shudder at the thought of all these players shouting, vote for me! or I\'ll give you if you\'ll vote for me! It screams of abuse and I don\'t like it, maybe because its too complicated. KISS is my motto, well half the time :)
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Originally posted by Harwen
Originally posted by Seytra
Yes, unfortunately. But maybe the voting system could be limited to 2proven\" players (like playtime), and abuse results in no chance of ever voting again. also, limited impact of one vote (like needing ~ 50 votes to effect something), and any player can only vote once a week week (and maybe only once in a month for the same person).
Hmm, then that makes me shudder at the thought of all these players shouting, vote for me! or I\'ll give you if you\'ll vote for me! It screams of abuse and I don\'t like it, maybe because its too complicated. KISS is my motto, well half the time :)
True, it _is_ complicated. However, if there was no limit, then ppl. would make voting bots and exchange votes by the hundreds using these... :(
Kran Ingame Security Service? Sounds good ;)
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Harwen the channel concept hasw allready been discussed :P theres about 4 or more in on the 2-3rd page of wish list alone lol..
the voting system is a good idea but there would definetly be some abuse of it.. maybe simple stuff like you cant voter more than once in a 24 hour time slot.. you cant vote on behalf of your self.. it would limit the amount of abuse.. :(
Many thanks,
Danny :))
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Originally posted by Danny
Harwen the channel concept hasw allready been discussed :P theres about 4 or more in on the 2-3rd page of wish list alone lol..
the voting system is a good idea but there would definetly be some abuse of it.. maybe simple stuff like you cant voter more than once in a 24 hour time slot.. you cant vote on behalf of your self.. it would limit the amount of abuse.. :(
Many thanks,
Danny :))
Oh gee, thank you Danny for stating the obvious. Hmm, was i posting about channels, no its not my post. I\'m suggesting something. Sheesh.
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\"1337\" talk does break up the atmosphere and nice friendly mood to the game.
block the words \"dewd, leet, sup, words with a z on the end ect....
in game moderators should be assingened to just block out anoying little people and mute them for say 30mins.
but the community will ignore \"13373rz\" in general.
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I agree blocking leet speech. I have had my fill of listening to it in other games.
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Do not block leet speech just translate it in common english and let\'s see how much longer they\'ll type that way when the output is not present :)
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Originally posted by Darakus
Do not block leet speech just translate it in common english and let\'s see how much longer they\'ll type that way when the output is not present :)
This would be a good idea, if not for the fact that 1337-speak can be any one of the following:
133t 5p34k
1ee7 5|?ea|<
|_337 S|?34|<
|_33-|- 5|?34|<
etc... Thanks to the (almost) endless variations of the language it\'s extremely hard to identify it properly unfortunately, and since there are next to endless variations of doing the same letter in 1337-speak, most kids will just come up with more elaborate schemes of the same thing. It\'s just to look at how the spam emails have evolved for that.
If you can device a method to recognize that random gibberish of text strings, though, I\'d like to see it implemented. =)
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ponders a leet to english translator with a fuzzy logic ocr intermediate step.
the system doesn\'t have to be efficient or correct much of the time. well maybe efficient. there is enough standardization in leet that some could be hard coded in. if it isn\'t recognized then it renders to a graphic and uses ocr on the result. at an 80% confident level most combinations will be correctly translated. or at least that is how i think the human brain does it.
now if only we could learn them english right good.
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im sorry, i didnt read the whole thread... so my answer may not be fitting to the last posts...
just in general to this topic:
first: how to define roleplaying?
that seems to be a point of disussion, but i think it is an rather easy question.
roleplaying means to clearly differentiate between character knowledge and player knowledge.
if you let you character act in accordance to all she/he does know (and for you character planeshift is a real world, in which he does live), than you are roleplaying, especially whenever you do thin inspite of your own knowledge (since you as the player know, doing something else might be better... regarding to the rules, or with such knowledge like \"if it wasnt important, it wouldnt be implemented.\")
especially you character does not know what computers are, what \"planeshift\" is, and he thinks talking about \"sword skill 15\" is some sort of mental disorder... she/he is living in a real world, and in real worlds, there are no skill points, no numbers on attributes... people just don\'t have character sheets.
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second: my opinion on roleplaying in ps.
i\'d really love to. but with my first character i couldn\'t, since the game really isn\'t self-explanatory. since many things aren\'t implemented yet, theres no chance of gettin anywhere, without asking about the game mechanics, and how things work.
but since i couldnt play the character i intendet to (human female healer - no human females yet, no healing yet...) ill promised myself to stick to roleplaying, once i can play my desired character.
i would be very happy, to see other people act in character to. to play their roles, instead of just mindless pushing their skills...
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just some additional thoughts on stuff like word filters an the like...
im not sure if they fulfil their goal, since the very existence of a word filter makes you wann find out, how intelligent it is. it makes you try out lots of words, just to see, which ones get blocked, and which don\'t....
i would rather work in the other direction, and offer the player stuff which is fun, and which does softly push you towards roleplaying.
an example:
someday i tried some completely stupid browser game, where you could level up some char while chatting with others. the game itself was completely dumb. roleplaying wasnt encouraged at all... it was just for fun, not serious at all.
but there was gimmick which made the people roleplay, even if they didnt notice it themselves.
you could buy alkohol, and did cost ingame currency, and it really wasnt cheap. drinkin it didnt change anything on the game mechanics... all the fighting worked the same way as always.
there was just one thing happening: all the text you typed was changed a little bit. some sort of script randomly added *hicks* to your sentences, and doubled characters. it looked something like this:
\"i\'m so ddru*hicks*nk. i doon\'t knnow if i *hicks*can wwalk.\"
nothing more, nothing less. people started drinkin a lot there, and they startet playing drunk, behaving like drunk, although only their character was drunk, not themselves.
it was some basic form of roleplaying. totally uninentionally. it was really funny to watch, and not because of the transformed language.
so several things i would suggest to encourage roleplaying:
.) whenever a new character is created, there should be some intro played, in which the player gets some compressed background information about the world his new character is gonna live in.
.) ad lots of extra stuff in the game, which is not neccessary for playing the game. like the example with the alcohol above, ore there could be some sort of shooting range, where you can compare your bow skills, some sort of game to play for the characters.
maybe
http://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/Battledore-Shuttlecock.htm
battledore-shuttlecock... which is a 2000 year old game, that later developed into badminton...
the /greet command for is already a step into this direction.
heres the site i got the link from:
http://jducoeur.org/game-hist/game-rules.html
a collection of mediveal game rules.
.) let the players have houses or some place they can live at. this does a lot to intensivy the \"realworld\" feeling of a game.
.) lots of possibilities to change the looks of an character, by different hairstyles + colors, mabe different faces and especially by clothes. it\'s hard to play an character as an unique person, if she/he exactly looks like everybody else.
it should also be possible to make smaller/taller people, and thinner/fatter ones...
.) some sort of (player made) news paper, or anything thelike. in a living world, theres always something happening. give the people information on what is happening, so that they can gossip about ingame events, instead of something out of the gameworld.
.) provide extra methods (channels/forums) for rules questions and stuff thelikes. if there areas clearly marked as intended for meta-game talk, and you have a good chance of success there, than people will less likely use the ingame channels for such activities.
.) the roleplayer should always keep in mind, that many non-roleplayers dont want to destroy their roleplaying expierince (which they may effectively do) intentionally. its just, that they have no expierience with roleplaying. so always be an good example and show others how its done. most important: always stay helpful and calm. maybe use the /tell command to explain why you cant talk about player knowledge in the game.
never try to turn somebody into a roleplayer by force. the game should be fun for everyone... and for everyone in the whay she or he likes it.
etc...
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Yep, the Shout feature MUST be removed. It\'s is one of the most annoying things on a RP server of any ORPG. Some NWN servers actually have the Shout option removed to keep some sanity amongst the RPers.
Private chat can be left in, simple if it is not in the players with use MSN, ICQ or IRC anyway for chatting.
I like what has been mentioned about GM moderated XP (I know another name is used, but this concept is well used throughout many RPGs), more quests that are not combat related and requires a group of players with different skills to achieve a specified goal, fillin a RP form before given an account (yep the numbers will decrease but at least they be RPers), etc is a brilliant idea. Maybe when implimenting this, consider creating a separate smaller world server dedicated to Hack & Slash, call it PS Hack & Slash. Here remove most of the RPing features, like the way many NWN modules are done just for the Power Players as a means of getting these players off the RP servers. The world can definitely be smaller as they really hate travelling, just want to fight. Heck, just make it free for all combat, seeing they only interested in combat and leveling.
As for leet speech, why not just check to see if a number diget or punction symbol appearing in the word, if so it is leet speech and let the word be translated to ####. This alone will eliminate most of leet speech without the need for complex pattern checks. Seeing \"I was ####, and #### ####.\" is not going to very readible. The key is to keep #### the same length irrespect of leet word length being translated.
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I\'m seeing almost varying defonitions of RP, I understand the whole not talking about a lakers game in IC and not being an ub3r 1337, but I\'m curious is there really much more to it than that? One of the main things I\'m pondering is if one is looking for the tavern or something how would you word it so to flow with the rp environment.
-OB
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Wordings well there are tons of them really :
Are you looking for the tavern lad, well it\'s quite simple from here, take the stairs next to the temple then the firts turn right and follow the road.
Arrrrh, you\'d be looking for the tavern, just follow the fumes and the unstable dwarves
Grunt, Tavern, wha\'s tavern me no understand ... me needs a drink you needs a drink too.
Drinking you shall not, bad for the reflexes it is.
If you lookin\' fo\' a bed then follo\' me
As you can see you can take an accent depending on the character you want to play you could even play the genius level mage who just happens to not understand common language (don\'t ask me for that one, it\'s really tiring to do :) ) after a time of playing you persona you\'ll find it more and more easy to get into it, you\'ll just have to remember that the persona is for public channels and not private ones so as to keep clear to your surroundings that yes you are a fairly intelligent person and no you do not speak in grunts in real life :)
Just don\'t forget, do not make a character you cannot play that is the only limit :)
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was that tibia you were playin??? tibia was great until the hacking time.....
but anywase ive seen l337 to english translaters mabye the devs could recruit the people who wrote them
here are some
http://www.jayssite.com/stuff/l33t/l33t_translator.html
http://www.arches.uga.edu/~spahzz/l33t%20translater.html
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Darakus you forgot:
\"Why are you jumping lad? You have the feaver?\"
Edit: Ok I admit that was spam but it does make a point just treat em like there\'s something wrong with them when they act out of character. They will get the hint.....hopefully