PlaneShift
Gameplay => Guilds Forum => Topic started by: Yarulion on August 13, 2004, 04:05:26 am
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I, personally, have a strong opinion on this subject. I moved my comment from a thread at which it was originally directed out of respect for its owners. This seems to cause much unrest in the community, and it is certainly generating a lot of off-topic flames in threads of guilds who are accused. Rather than having to explain and re-explain how we feel to every single person who decides to create a guild rather than legitimately join one, why not just air the dirty laundry here? Let\'s see how the PS community really feels.
Warning: I don\'t mean to create a catch-all for flames. I mean if you have a logical statement about your opinion one way or the other, then this would be the place to put them.
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I, for one, am quite frustrated and inconvenienced by the appearance recently of one clone guild after another. But I\'m going to make an effort to put down the flame-thrower and have a decent, logical post explaining why I feel the way I do. Following are the reasons I find clone guilds distasteful.
1. They hurt already established guilds. Why do you think political campaigns always come down to the top two or three candidates? Similar candidates are weeded out in the primary elections because the people who feel fairly similarly are only hurting themselves to split their votes between two candidates while everyone opposed to them votes for one. Similarly, if a guild sprang up called \"T3h C1ph3rZ\" that was trying to start a sect of 2nd-Edition D&D-based Transcendent Order faction members out here, I\'d be a little preturbed! People who are coming to the game don\'t always look to see what is the more established guild, and unfortunately people who could have proved to be good recruits are being sucked into this new n00bish guild that sprang up because some idiot was dead set on being in a guild JUST LIKE MINE but he couldn\'t handle not being in charge. Now don\'t get me wrong, I can handle a little friendly competition. Nevertheless, I think creating a guild without first becoming acclimated to the game or community is a bit foolish, and when it results in the near exact duplication of an organization that is currently prospering, I find it offensive and detrimental to the community itself. I, personally, want to see this game succeed and reach 100% of its potential. Mostly this means I\'d like to see a whole lot more role-playing from the more recent arrivals and a lot less intrusion on the established community.
2. They undermine the flow of the community. If anyone hasn\'t noticed already, a lot of this community gets frustrated that, as I once heard it put, \"every second n00b that joins PS makes a new guild.\" Granted, this is one of the only things to do in the MolecularBlue release. Granted, making clans is fun for the whole family. Granted, a lot of us did the same thing when we got here and succeeded at it (myself included). But for heaven\'s sake, if you have no desire to fit in with the community as it stands now, and you do no research to see what kind of guild would really integrate with Yliakumic life, and you have no other reason to run a guild than the simple facts that you have the ability to make one and, by the gods, you want to be in charge.... then it is my feeling (and forgive my harshness/snobbishness) that you really don\'t belong in this game. The project that is Planeshift is to build a community based around a free, friendly game that can be the model for all free MMORPGs in the future. It is not a 3D playground for everyone and their dog to come in and abuse the /newguild command so their name will be So&So, T3H L33T3ST in T3H L33T 5QU4|).
3. They lack effort (not to mention originality :evil: ). I, personally, will be the first to admit that I was very premature when I made my guild on PlaneShift. HOWEVER, when I was advised that I was operating outside the standard, I worked TIRELESSLY to correct it. I worked every spare minute of every spare hour for TWO SOLID DAYS to flesh out my guild and put up a fully functioning website, which has been the one we have used up until just recently without any changes. I don\'t mean to brag on myself or to say \"I did this, so you should, too,\" by any means, but let me put it this way. When you come in to the community PlaneShift, which is very well-established and has members who have been here since the beginning, you should treat putting a guild right in the middle of what they have built the same way you would if you were to put a house right in the middle of a well-to-do neighborhood. EVERYONE suffers if you have an eyesore, not just you. Property values go down, the whole essence of your neighborhood is degraded. A shack in the middle of a bunch of mansions is the only thing people are going to look at. At first it will be one, and people will ask, \"Why is that there?\" Eventually it will be three or four, and people will say, \"Man, this neighborhood isn\'t what it used to be. Look at what is going on there now.\" All of a sudden rather than a ritzy high-class neighborhood you\'re in the middle of a slum. Yeah, maybe this is a little bit of a slippery slope, but it\'s a chance I don\'t wanna take.
In closing, I would like to say that this is just my opinion (read: soapbox) and may in no way reflect the opinion of any member or group of members in this community. I do, however, reserve the future right to \"boo\" and \"hiss\" at any reckless fool that comes in and wantonly places a haphazardly-crafted guild in the middle of our carefully designed world.
That is all. (/rant)
P.S. If the community gets big enough that two or more guilds with roughly the same outlook but different membership start competing with each other, then great! That seems natural. It\'s just that there is so much untapped here... so much that hasn\'t been done... this happening now is just nonsense.
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Well my opinion has changed somewhat on this various times, I don\'t like the idea of guilds copying others. Although its kind of hard not to sometimes...I have begun to realize it will come to a point where a guild ideas will be reused, there will be no stopping it. Also once the release is put out, the player ratio will go sky high so the recent addition in guilds will not be a waste and the continuation of new guilds won\'t stop. So I would have to say new guilds even though they might reuse a theme of another, is good for the community..shows players taking a interest in the DEVs hard work.
Now there is some exceptions to this like ridiculously stupid guilds that just are brutal..but they always learn in the end. So people like myself should stop \"Noob/Newb Bashing\" and let things run their course and allow the Moderators and GMs to handle them. Us tearing them apart with words will not solve anything, we should rather take a better approach at it like (Reporting it, in extreme cases)
I apologize to those people I have insulted, persecuted and various other attacks done. From now on I will avoid taking the shot at them. Exception for one guild and one guy, I am sure he knows who he is ^^
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I somewhat agree with you, and I actually PM-ed a kind of apology to Vanderbal, especially since I took it all out on him at first even though he was just one of about three.
However, my problem is not with guilds like Rangers of the Expedition or now (perhaps?) the Champions of Yliakum, who are willing to either (a) change their ways a bit for variety and harmony, or (b) attempt to specifically compete with guilds that they are at odds with. Most of this \"cloning\" seems to be coming from people who are simply dissatisfied with being in a guild that they are not in charge of. Correct me if I\'m wrong?
As far as the Champs, they caught a bit of excessive backlash from being the third new guild in a row to upset the community (or at least part of it) in this particular way.
[Edit] It\'s also very possible that I\'m just overworked and a bit pissy from a bad day, and that this is a personal conflict of interest in a way because I am part of a movement toward merging several similar guilds... I still think that what PS needs right now while it has a small enough community to control it (regardless of future high-volume exceptions) is variety.
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Well could you name a few clone guilds... I\'ve seen many, but haven\'t bothered reading their piece-of-trash-threads. The only thing that REALLY bugs me with clone guilds is how they hurt the already established guild.
OT: I don\'t believe the guild I\'m in is a clone guild... now I\'ve become paranoid with worrying about the guild im in now... no i don\'t think we\'re cloned. We need more distinguishing characteristics though.
Personally... i say Foul Ball... but who is to define and decide which guild is a clone guild??
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I had a joke to put here about this, but it would have been taken the wrong way so I\'ll pass that over.
**hears a collective sigh of relief**
I don\'t see what the big deal is. I mean, sure if they rip the entire guild (or organization) off of you...but people get pissy over ranks and that is just way over the top. It is NOT a copy guild if they have an alike sounding name or some of their ranks have the same name or is set up somewhat the same. Sure, it might have inspired someone (ex: their guild is set up great but they don\'t like the leader(s) ), there is nothing wrong with that.
So, all in all, unless they rip everything off of you...you do not have reason to whine. I don\'t think that fits into either category.
Yarulion, yours is the only guild posts I have replied to so far, keep them intelligent. :)
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Originally posted by Kiern
I had a joke to put here about this, but it would have been taken the wrong way so I\'ll pass that over.
**hears a collective sigh of relief**
I don\'t see what the big deal is. I mean, sure if they rip the entire guild (or organization) off of you...but people get pissy over ranks and that is just way over the top. It is NOT a copy guild if they have an alike sounding name or some of their ranks have the same name or is set up somewhat the same. Sure, it might have inspired someone (ex: their guild is set up great but they don\'t like the leader(s) ), there is nothing wrong with that.
So, all in all, unless they rip everything off of you...you do not have reason to whine. I don\'t think that fits into either category.
Yarulion, yours is the only guild posts I have replied to so far, keep them intelligent. :)
What these guilds are duplicating is not ranks or names, but objectives. That\'s different, do you agree?
THE GREAT OPINION OF ME: I hate clone guilds. I suggest we do absolutely nothing about them. Nothing needs to be done. They die, we party. Good deal, is it not?
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Im not reading any of ur long drawn out posts to comment on them bc it would be a waste of my time. But my opinion is simple:
1) They dont \"inconvenience\" u in ANY way unless YOU let them.
2) They dont harm u in any way.
3) You will find clone guilds in ANY other mmorpg u play.
4) Your arguements don\'t stop them from making their guilds or make them quit them and shut them down...
So i ask... Why do u waste ur time flaming their posts. Leave them in peace and let them run their guilds.
No guild will be exactly like another because no leader nor member is identical...
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I think clone guilds are a waist of time. They just live in the shadow of the guild they copyed which damages both guilds.
Why don\'t people just make somthing original?
I think every guild should be very different and if the guild youre gonna make that is going to be like another, than just join the one that exists!:)
PS Ill be gone Sunday through the next wensday of the next week so dont think i quit^^
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Beh, just declare war on any new clone guilds in CB. Once you\'ve smashed them into pulp they\'ll not bother to carry on. :P
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Or quietly absorb them ^^
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Before I say anything I would like to clarify that I have no problem with a new guild as long as leader actually does some reading first. The fact that a lot of these guild do almost no research (or so it seems) before they setup their guild shows a blatant disregard for this community. For example the recent Black_Rose/Order of the black rose incident ? evidently Black_Rose was too lazy to even read the guild list on The BBB.
There is of course nothing implicitly wrong with new guilds, and nothing we can do to stop them being created. Like Tranor said our arguments do little to stop these guilds ? in fact if anything they incense the targeted leader so greatly that he is even less likely to give up simply out of defiance.
However, Planeshift, as a smallish community, has reached and gone beyond critical mass in terms of the number of guilds. Many well thought through and original guilds have already succumbed to the distinct deficit of active members.
But as we have all seen not many new guilds are thought through or original. These ?n00b? guilds are creating divisions within the community; a kind of elitism from the older players and a resentment of the way they cheapen the roleplay value of the guilds. I don?t think any of us are particularly proud of newbie bashing, but at the same time none of us are particularly fond of Planeshift becoming, as Tranor put it ?ANY other mmorpg u play?.
My advice to new guild leaders who probably will never read this ?
Research Yliakum ? Read all the content on http://www.planeshit.it, make sure you understand that world and try and make a guild relating to Yliakum, not Earth (examples: Knights Templar, or for instance a Metallica based guild).
Research other guilds of Yliakum ? Explore the guild list at http://www.thebbb.tk; see what ideas other people have had and check whether there are any guilds you think you would like to join before you create your own.
Try and be original ? This works for you and for the community; for the guild you will be more interesting and therefore more likely to garner members. And for the community there will be far less pointless accusations of plagiarism. The key to coming up with an original guild is to clearly define your guild (see below).
Clearly define your guild ? Goals (wealth, happiness. discovery, knowledge, collection, construction, political power, military might, suffering? and so on), History, Hierarchy, etc.
Finishing touches ? Make a website, use proper grammar and roleplay.
Do all of the above and at least you wont get flamed; but that still doesn?t mean you will be successful, courtesy of the saturation of guilds, attaining active members is the hardest part.
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Originally posted by Joeyguy
What these guilds are duplicating is not ranks or names, but objectives. That\'s different, do you agree?
Not really, it works the same in my opinion...there are very few people here who I would want as the leader of my guild and yet they may have some great ideas (or objectives). So, I want the same type of guild and yet do not like the leader. The solution? Make a guild that is like that (note: as said before, not a complete rip-off, just set up the same way) but with either myself or someone I trust as the leader...if it happens to become more successful, then I was right in setting that up, if not the guild will fall apart and no one is hurt except I wasted a lot of my time.
Though jugding by these \"clone guilds\" I would say they just want themselves as a leader and just don\'t take time to research like Zephyrus points out. Eventually though, there will be way too many guilds to research to make sure yours is not almost the same as it is, unless it is one of the popular ones. Even then, what do the big guilds have to worry about and therefore flame them and constantly insult them? Nothing.
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I\'m intrigued though not at all surprised by the responses here. I\'m guessing this was very constructive because now everyone knows where the more vocal parts of the community stand, and we can see the logic in each other\'s arguments. It also served the dual purpose of giving us somewhere to rant just a bit without \"newbie bashing.\"
I do think that I was correct in my original assumption that the foul does not lie in the identity theft itself (hence my edit in the second post in this thread). The identity theft is simply what many people name as their reason. The honest but not-so-out-in-the-open problem is that the more well-established factions in the community find it offensive when someone just waltzes in and creates something without putting in any time or effort.
This is a good, healthy, and natural thing. It means PlaneShift really is going in the direction it needs to be going in. Basically, rather than letting this split the community (into n00b-haters and n00b-defenders) it would be wise to merely take into account that at the moment, at least, PlaneShift has a very aware community that does not like to be disrupted. The potential of the game is too great and the work put into it has been too much to let this turn into \"just any old game.\" All of us who have been here for a while know that, and the cool thing is that while we may be \"elitist\" or whatnot but it is due to the fact that we are subconsciously defending our world. It is the pride that we take in our role-playing community that causes this, and that is what keeps us strong. So perhaps now that we all know this we should not be so vocal about it? Or perhaps we could take the initiative to be more helpful? Hell, we could go all out and form an organization to help/tutor new guildmasters - proofread their websites, advise them on what is acceptable and what is taboo, and generally acclimate them to the community.
Anyhow I have been very pleased by what I have read. No further comments except to two people:
Kiern - Hope I continue to stay intelligent enough to get an entertaining post out of you every once in a while.
Tranor - No hard feelings and I hope we haven\'t offended you, but you are being very closed-minded when you do not even read what we have to say. I\'ve read all of your posts before responding, sometimes more than once, and I feel I deserve the same courtesy if you are going to comment. But do not take this too personally - I do not wish to have any arguments or confrontations with you. (Unless of course you run away and start up T3H C1PH3RZ just to spite me :P :] )
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I\'ve come back with a totally new thought on the matter.
It pains me to people getting flamed by other people in the forum. The people doing the flaming: particularly people who\'ve participated longer than other people in the community and game.
However, how does having made a name for yourself among the community give you the right to flame other players??
It would appear to me that there will be few guilds to survive all this, besides the already established. The already established ones have hurt more people, caused more pain and wasted time, more than the clone guild, has done to the other guild!
This has been proven; for example Mercenaries Guild (I\'m not picking on you): Any other guild trying to do mecenary work will be destroyed by you??!! You don\'t control the community!
Another example, Metal Militia has taken more heat than it needed, at the moment Zodius is having his guild shot down.
So far as I can see, they have done nothing to upset you, and have abided by the rules, so how does verbally abusing them solve ANYTHING!? Except you getting satisfaction of having one less guild in the game. Be more considerate!
So let the clone guilds do the picking on established guilds, how\'s that gonna do anything to them?
new players creating guilds deserve more respect than they get, and people who make fun of people or torment people, don\'t give me this bullshit about roleplaying an evil person!
Give everyone equal respect! Give respect to get respect. Stop being so self-centered and try to be a little more considerate!
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0mg zip it flippy stop trying to be a hero! Mercenaries will pwn you straight to hell ^^ J/k (but we will still mess up the competition)
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I think we\'ve already discussed this problem and I thought this was over, but here we go again.
The problem, almost everyone decided, was that people aren\'t doing enough research. A certain level of work has to be put into a guild before anyone in this community will respect it. That\'s a simple fact, and the sooner people learn what kind of community they are dealing with here, the better off they will be.
Zodius is the obvious exception here, because no one is really flaming his guild. We\'re just laughing at all the evil kitty cats. :D I, personally, think Zodius has a really cool idea and I hope he doesn\'t give up on it. This doesn\'t make it any less humorous, however. :]
(Edit: OK, well maybe Seppie is flaming Zodius.... just a little...)
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Are you kidding?? seperot is newbie enemy #1!!
I don\'t know why he persists with all that crap! I wonder if he\'ll give me that BS about roleplaying??
Anyway, I\'m not trying to be a hero, I\'m just saying it\'s an absolute shame when people don\'t give new people/ guilds chances!
The guild should diminish on it\'s own! Not because some @$$hole has decided he doesn\'t like it!
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I tend to agree with Flippyseal here. There always is a bunch of not-so-smart people who get into organizations which aren\'t thought out... After all, without those kinds of guilds, how can the better guilds prove their worthiness? Take the good with the bad guys, if you don\'t like the way the first post is going, don\'t read it, don\'t open it up again, and don\'t give the guy publicity and a hard time.
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When people come into the game and start a guild after doing no research it can be looked upon as idiotic. Would you hand in a project if you just guessed everything on it? no, and if you did the teachers would find it disrespectful (they work hard and have to grade your stuff), so why do people do the same to PS poluting it with clone and clone again.
Seperot has been here a long time Flippy, chances are he is just getting annoyed at how every newb comes here and decides he is going to rule PS.
And, if I remember correctly, he is atleast an average roleplayer (average if you don\'t include those that don\'t roleplay), he has contributed much to Planeshift including 1. an original guild 2. certain relations (I want to kill him) 3. Many good opinions. SO have some respect Flippy
PS: You know Waylander is annoyed at the ammount of newbs when....He defends Seperot :P
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It\'s not right to get angry at peoples thoughts and stuff so instead of shouting at the people shout at what they are defending with good reasons to back up your veiw of the topic or your side will lose respect.
I think no guild is a clone unless the copyd all the rules and story and stuff.
Some goals may be the same but just because of the same goal they will probably be enemys (\"i want to rule the world........NO! I wwant to rule the world!)