PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => PvP,PK and Thieving => Topic started by: Ulfer on June 20, 2008, 10:09:45 pm
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It's been on my mind for some time and if it's been posted already, well, I didn't see it... anyway...
Claymores, they're "a heavy, two-edged sword, often as tall as a man" and so I think this should be implemented in the game mechanics and combat system. I mean, it looks rather silly to see a delicate, graceful enki run around with two giant claymores that in all reality could never be possible, nevermind being able to swing them both one handed. Also, a dwarf with two claymores just looks hilarious :D a Dwarf should not be able to wield a claymore. The weapon stats would need to change to balance the damage output against weapons used in two hands... speed: 4.00 damage: 6.00? I don't know, off the top of my head...
Battle axes also do not seem large enough in my opinion when you have a small battle axe variation. I believe these weapons should also be two handed to give purpose to the small battle axe, which in stats, is totally inferior... speed 3.20 damage 4.00? again, just whatever popped into my head.
Also, I propose having a kind of "weapon finesse" skill or "ambidextrous" skill or something, so it affects fighting with two weapons. I mean, not everyone can use both hands and in weapon fighting this could hinder strike damage or something so training the skill could balance this negative effect, thus putting more influence on duels.
I also think maximum weapon qualities should be reduced to 200 so that duels are not determined by who hits first, more than likely wins in an instant hp sapping double strike... they last longer and give some realism in armor. Players with quality 300 weapons, 100 weapons skill against vs 100 Heavy Armor cuts through it like butter and it's plated armor - weapon damage types such as slash should have a lower damage modifier and perhaps impact or bludgeon? should do more damage to plate than slash and so on. Also not only having maximum weapon qualities reduced to 200 because of combat but also because of crafting... a quality 300 weapon can last the entire gaming life of your character, if you wanted it to... and so with a lower quality and a faster quality depletion rate it will make crafting a worthwhile skill and trade to pursue and actually make weapon repair a more useful skill to train. I know you'd have to re-look at crafting skills and processes and such... and non of this would be easy, but this is my wishlist :P
Also, just touching upon magic... level 150 summon stones or arrow is just god-like and drops anyone dead in less than 5 seconds, it would be great if the magic was looked at and weakened considerably... sorry (likely mentioned before)
Sorry if some of it was worded badly but I'm tired and just kind of typed what I was thinking in my head at this very moment in time...
EDIT: Doh, wrong board :-\ more fitting in the child board.
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Also, just touching upon magic... level 150 summon stones or arrow is just god-like and drops anyone dead in less than 5 seconds, it would be great if the magic was looked at and weakened considerably... sorry (likely mentioned before)
What?! I didn't even know this existed, which is nice to hear, but duuude! Magic has been extremely weak in the past, almost to the point that it was completely useless to train it, other than see a few effects on screen. What you're saying is to go back to that state and I do not agree with that in any way.
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Ralleyon, I believe he meant that magic is fine killing in 2-3 hits, but in a duel, the first burst of magic should not turn the castee into ash.
I agree that two max leveled characters should be able to fight more effeciantly. One uber-trained sword hit should not slice through uber-trained armor in one hit.
I think 300 max quality is fine, but it needs to degrade much faster than it does, as you mentioned.
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Also, just touching upon magic... level 150 summon stones or arrow is just god-like and drops anyone dead in less than 5 seconds, it would be great if the magic was looked at and weakened considerably... sorry (likely mentioned before)
What?! I didn't even know this existed, which is nice to hear, but duuude! Magic has been extremely weak in the past, almost to the point that it was completely useless to train it, other than see a few effects on screen. What you're saying is to go back to that state and I do not agree with that in any way.
I'm not saying weaken magic to the point of it being useless but c'mon... have you witnessed or been on the receiving end of a level 150 summon stone attack? you're dead in seconds, seriously, it's outrageously powerful... and you can run away while casting.... stones are thrown at a rate of .50 of a second and not to mention the range is about half of say, bdroad1!
I only propose in bringing down the max magic to 100 and man, lower the attacks... and perhaps not being able to run would make more sense when casting spells and would also allow vulnerability and give the weapon fighter a chance to fight back. I didn't mention it before but it only occurred to me now, I'm throwing ideas around... not everyone is going to like them, I guess...
Don't get me wrong though, I really enjoy playing PS and these points were made to hopefully improve an enjoyable game into something even better? In my opinion :-X
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Or just wipe all glyphs and seriously limit their availability from now on. ;D
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The mathscripts for magic are not balanced well. This results in magic being weak even when you get to 40 or 60, which when these scripts were made, probably was thought to be extremely high. I think being able to train to 150 is more of an inbalance at the moment. On the other hand, if you could spent the time to obtain all the millions of tria to rain that high (not using exploits or inbalances in digging a single ore), and train the skill in a normal way (casting it on something that is not too easily repeatable), then you do deserve to be able to kill an untrained fighter in a single blow. I think a main problem is in being able to train this far in less than a few years :)
Balancing these things is not easy. You could make it less effective at high levels, but then all magic would be even more useless for anyone not training it for a few years (unless using exploits).
Let's just hope someone has some time to look at these things soon (TM).
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Yeah, my character is level 40 in magic and really, only now is magic becoming of any real use and I understand it must take a very very very long time to achieve the levels I'm talking about but should players be allowed to be that strong anyway? a gradual improvement would be welcome... I was told only at level 65+ does magic start to get great for this is when the attacks greatly increase. Magic balancing is hard for it's not only due to the attack rate and such but the different spells strength e.g meteor, it takes twice as long to kill a rat with this realm 3 spell that it does with arrow... larger level realm gaps? It's a complicated issue... which is why I only briefly mentioned it. I take it the no responses over the weapon/armor points mean everyone thinks it's a good idea? :P
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Also, just touching upon magic... level 150 summon stones or arrow is just god-like and drops anyone dead in less than 5 seconds, it would be great if the magic was looked at and weakened considerably... sorry (likely mentioned before)
What?! I didn't even know this existed, which is nice to hear, but duuude! Magic has been extremely weak in the past, almost to the point that it was completely useless to train it, other than see a few effects on screen. What you're saying is to go back to that state and I do not agree with that in any way.
I'm not saying weaken magic to the point of it being useless but c'mon... have you witnessed or been on the receiving end of a level 150 summon stone attack? you're dead in seconds, seriously, it's outrageously powerful... and you can run away while casting.... stones are thrown at a rate of .50 of a second and not to mention the range is about half of say, bdroad1!
I only propose in bringing down the max magic to 100 and man, lower the attacks... and perhaps not being able to run would make more sense when casting spells and would also allow vulnerability and give the weapon fighter a chance to fight back. I didn't mention it before but it only occurred to me now, I'm throwing ideas around... not everyone is going to like them, I guess...
Don't get me wrong though, I really enjoy playing PS and these points were made to hopefully improve an enjoyable game into something even better? In my opinion :-X
I also kinda think that this might get a little more manageable once anti-magic works.
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Yes, anti-magic is truly something that a fighter would absolutely have to train in. For mages this could come at the expense of their magic abilities. The more powerful you are, the more subsceptible to magic you become.
Ulfer, I understand now waht you meant - toning down that particular spell. If it truly is so powerful, then it really needs to be tweaked at least in the range of its effect.
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Yes, anti-magic is truly something that a fighter would absolutely have to train in. For mages this could come at the expense of their magic abilities. The more powerful you are, the more subsceptible to magic you become.
Ulfer, I understand now waht you meant - toning down that particular spell. If it truly is so powerful, then it really needs to be tweaked at least in the range of its effect.
Also Crystal Ways Arrow (Not seen Energy Arrow so much at that level) and perhaps Dark Ways Taste of Death... both of which are more or less equal to Brown Ways, Flying Stones. My character has maximum stats and these spells make Ulfer drop dead in less than 5 seconds, that's 800hp - gone... ant-magic? I wonder what kind of effect this will have... but anyway, my main "point" was to do with weapon combat, not spell casting...
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and perhaps not being able to run would make more sense when casting spells and would also allow vulnerability and give the weapon fighter a chance to fight back.
This I wouldn't agree with. Before you couldn't run around with magic and from what I knew that made it considerably harder to win a duel with it. Of course, if magic is as strong as you say at the extremely higher levels then I understand why you feel so.
What I wonder is why can't magic just be balanced to work the same as the weapon skill? There are swords of different strengths but the same works for glyphs correct? If so then you could just have the rate that magic becomes more powerful with leveling be even to that of a sword wielder. Then two people using either skill of equal level may have more of a challenge fighting each other because their levels being close to eachother actually means something.
On the other hand, if you could spent the time to obtain all the millions of tria to rain that high (not using exploits or inbalances in digging a single ore), and train the skill in a normal way (casting it on something that is not too easily repeatable), then you do deserve to be able to kill an untrained fighter in a single blow. I think a main problem is in being able to train this far in less than a few years :)
I'd agree. While I think that a few years may be a very long time to get stats raised it shouldn't just take someone a month or two either.
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perhaps in addition to the anti-magic skill, which is sure to help, wearing armor could greatly reduce the casting speed or strength of the caster. Mages don't often run around with plate armor on, they wear fancy robes and crap because armor weighs them down and makes it harder to cast.
[edit] also i totally agree about the other dueling suggestions too, claymores should be two handed, weilding two weapons should be more difficult than one, and i am sick and tired of taking 1200 damage on the first blow of a duel!!!!!!!! I WANT A REMATCH!!!!!!
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Hey you know I love you folks and all but this is HARD to get right. We'll work on it for sure but it is gonna take a lot of TIME.
keep the suggestions coming on this issue and remember where the bug tracker is!
Also if you can help, apply!
Ulfer I have seen you as a very reasonable pvper, many still don't know this or remember it, but I was maxed in all skills while being a core rper the philosophy that an rper ought to have their skills trained to what they RP is 100% endorsed by this Developer and I am not alone.
Anyhow I like the cut of your jib, resist the temptation to become a shrill complainer (it happens to good people all the time).
Pm me about joining the team if you are interested in helping to fix this and other issues.
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so basically, an Archmage is supposed to die because he dueled a fighter? Anyone remember Merlin, or gandalf, or Raislin for that matter. Powerful mages are supposed to be able to turn any onery dwarf into a crispy critter in moments. No spell i know of can kill in a single blow either. Kinda makes me think of all the work Metallurgists went to to be able to smelt plat, only to have the lions share go to the miners. SO, a fighter can kill one in a single second, maybe 2, and what, a mage can't be allowed to do the same, in twice the time? Factor in the cost of becoming said 'uber' mage, theres only like about 15 players that high imo. Could be wrong, there could be more. As for the ways being similar, lol, not even close, Brown Way's flying stones is about 4 times as strong as max DW Taste of Death, while CW is twice as stong at least as DW. While it is all imblalanced, i don't see how reducing it's effectiveness would make it a better experience for PS players, since many wish to be mages, and well, what you sujest seems to give the advantage to fighters, which, sorry to say, just swing bits of metal at a beast, while being a mage takes true studies :P
I think actually doubling the max value for magic would make it more balanced, make it take much longer to gain high ranks, since a mage, basically studies his whole life if he/she's anything serious about it, while making the combat skills slightly faster in gain, since it's pretty much all practice, with theory reserved for tactics mostly.
That's my two trias on this.
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so basically, an Archmage is supposed to die because he dueled a fighter? Anyone remember Merlin, or gandalf, or Raislin for that matter. Powerful mages are supposed to be able to turn any onery dwarf into a crispy critter in moments. No spell i know of can kill in a single blow either. Kinda makes me think of all the work Metallurgists went to to be able to smelt plat, only to have the lions share go to the miners. SO, a fighter can kill one in a single second, maybe 2, and what, a mage can't be allowed to do the same, in twice the time? Factor in the cost of becoming said 'uber' mage, theres only like about 15 players that high imo. Could be wrong, there could be more.
As for the ways being similar, lol, not even close, Brown Way's flying stones is about 4 times as strong as max DW Taste of Death, while CW is twice as stong at least as DW. While it is all imblalanced, i don't see how reducing it's effectiveness would make it a better experience for PS players, since many wish to be mages, and well, what you sujest seems to give the advantage to fighters, which, sorry to say, just swing bits of metal at a beast, while being a mage takes true studies :P
I think actually doubling the max value for magic would make it more balanced, make it take much longer to gain high ranks, since a mage, basically studies his whole life if he/she's anything serious about it, while making the combat skills slightly faster in gain, since it's pretty much all practice, with theory reserved for tactics mostly.
That's my two trias on this.
I said "perhaps" Taste of Death... fighters cannot hit mages at will from half a map away... mages kill anything that even gets anywhere near them AND even if a fighter managed to, the spell caster sprints away anyway... with weapons you have to actual time your strikes while with magic, you repeatedly tap a short cut key til the target dies... there is no chance of "blocking" (anti-magic?) and certainly not "dodging." I do not think you can compare Gandalf or any mage for that matter and relate it to PS, I mean, there is balancing issues which what the discussion is primarily about... but I understand what you're saying, I do - magic is supposed to be powerful, yes, but it should not give such a huge advantage in relation to a fighters combat in the games system, imo -
but anyway this is a wish-list and so, not a complaint of any kind :) I just feel I had to give my views based on the responses above, which are all welcome.
I only suggested to reduce the higher levels effect (the point of which magic becomes dramatically powerful.) I also do not agree in raising magic another 50-100 levels, that's not actually solving anything... another six of months and this level will be reached and the spells are even more powerful and then this topic or one similar will find itself back into the board, and the problem will be even worse, unsolved.
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That's why you train anti-magic when it's implemented. It'll be a test of endurance, how long you can live and how long their mana lasts.
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Hm, what I didn't take into account was armor crafting and the quality of defense that will bring if/when that gets implemented... though most of my points are still valid.
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Anyone remember Merlin, or gandalf, or Raislin for that matter.
For every Merlin and Gandalf, there are Conan and Robin. And for every Raistlin there is Caramon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raistlin_Majere
He is also condescending, extremely resents his lack of physical strength and often relies on his twin brother for support. This generates feelings of resentment and jealousy more than feelings of affection and gratitude. To be exact, Raistlin harbors a secret hate for his twin’s physical power, and for the attention and comradeship it seems to earn him, which Raistlin’s own appearance and secretive nature denies him. Also of note, in SoulForge Raistlin develops a short-lived affection for a local town girl. He, already envious of his brothers popularity, stumbles upon his brother having sexual relations with the woman to whom his affections had been directed.
Powerful mages are supposed to be able to turn any onery dwarf into a crispy critter in moments.
Powerful warriors are supposed to be able to crack the same dwarf's skull or a squishy mage's skull and resist or reflect a hostile spell back to its source in moments.
SO, a fighter can kill one in a single second, maybe 2, and what, a mage can't be allowed to do the same, in twice the time?
Your mage = squishy/dead, while a fighter you're facing is not.
A spell-eater/spell-reflector gear that hurls the spells back at the source and kills it "in a single second, maybe 2" or "in twice the time" -- 'nuff said.
Factor in the cost of becoming said 'uber' mage, theres only like about 15 players that high imo. Could be wrong, there could be more. As for the ways being similar, lol, not even close, Brown Way's flying stones is about 4 times as strong as max DW Taste of Death, while CW is twice as stong at least as DW. While it is all imblalanced, i don't see how reducing it's effectiveness would make it a better experience for PS players, since many wish to be mages
And many do not...
and well, what you sujest seems to give the advantage to fighters, which, sorry to say, just swing bits of metal at a beast, while being a mage takes true studies
Just swinging bits of wood at a beast instead takes "true studies", indeed...
I think actually doubling the max value for magic would make it more balanced, make it take much longer to gain high ranks, since a mage, basically studies his whole life if he/she's anything serious about it, while making the combat skills slightly faster in gain, since it's pretty much all practice, with theory reserved for tactics mostly.
Waving a wand in the air is a serious business...
I personally don't care, since my in-game character can battle in many different ways. However, this poster's "logic" was so laughable that I wanted to give him a taste of his own "medicine". ;D
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I personally don't care, since my in-game character can battle in many different ways. However, this poster's "logic" was so laughable that I wanted to give him a taste of his own "medicine". ;D
And using his exact logic in reverse is proving a point? :P
He presents reasons why mages can beat warriors without giving any bonus to the warriors and you do the same only reversed. Point is, magic and blade should be even and completely equal. Possibly it takes more cash to learn magic and more training to learn swords (as it is now cause swords have a shorter yellow bar). However their strengths at certain levels should be equal just to keep things fair. So if your battling a level 100 brown way mage and your level 100 in sword either one of you can win. In the end it should come down to superior thinking and strategy to win a match. Actual tatics. Not 'My swords faster and stronger than yours' or 'my glyphs are ultra rare an yours aren't'.
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I thought it would be easy to balance all that, once the requirements are clear.
To me, requirements would be:
- fighters of similar levels would need many blows or spells to kill each other (otherwise there's no show to watch)
- magic looses precision and damage with distance.
- The mage still has the advantage of weakening his opponent before (and if) he comes to contact.
- Mages can walk while casting, but not run (not without tripping, or at least serious chances of failing the casting)
- Weapons quickly slice a mage who doesn't use protective spells.
- Magic projectiles are stopped by walls, rocks, or whatever the target is hiding behind.
- Physical armor does protect from ranged spells, one way or another.
- The most damaging spells go straightforward and can be dodged. More subtle magic can actually chase the target.
- Mages definitely are disadvantaged in close-combat. Their point is to keep the enemy at a distance. But that should not be accomplished by running.
- Mages keep their main advantage: zone spells. An arch-mage can incapacitate an army of nobodies, only to worry about some survivors of higher calibre.
- Mages also keep the advantage of a larger arsenal: they can blind, paralyse, cage, mind control, etc.
There is more, of course.
If balancing is achieved now, one side will probably still have an advantage for a while, until everything is in place (ranged weapons, magic items, etc.).
In the end, I think powerful mages should have it easy in open space, and clearly harder a time in a small room.
Btw, a claymore is not a 2-handed weapon. It works fine with a shield. But 2 long weapons only work together in fantasy settings. So there are decisions to be made there.
Also, a dwarf may look odd with a claymore, but all races can currently use the same weapons in the same ways, and wear the same clothes and armor, regardless of their size. So this is not a claymore issue. So far, dwarves wear dwarven boots, so they swing dwarven claymores. Rob Roy / Liam Neeson is not the height reference of yliakum.
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I disagree about a claymore not being a two-handed weapon<re. last post> Not because fo design or ability but sure strength, Most of all races should only be able to wield a claymore at max strength [current 200] but only there, I see Kran capapble of weilding two because of their size and the fact that they currently make Short swrods look like Daggers and long swords look like sorts [also their physical structure being made of a crystaline substance would lend to a much strong wielding arm], Been thinking of this for awhile and not sure how hard to implement it would be but to set a 'you cannot wield this because you are using a claymore' when trying to equip a shield or second weapon, or to put a strength limit on them like Armours currently have as well as named special weapons.
I agree wholely with Ulfer on the humorous look of Dwarves carrying claymores, it also stand that we should not be able to carry as many weapons as we do, Being that most blades are made of more than on steel stock, the weight of the weapons is a little low but not suggesting that be changed just that wielding 2 claymores/longswords seems a bit much, longsword and a knife or dagger seems reasonable. Just thinking about physical abilities of the actual races and the 1.5 meter claymores and 1 meter lonswords.
Well just sharing thoughts thanks for reading.