...magic manipulates the laws of nature ( I\'m not talking about druids and other stuff like that , I\'m talking about physics ) , changes them how it likes ( well , how the mage likes ) . Science , however , follows those laws , uses them , all the science based on those laws ( the ones that magic manipulates them ) . Therefore , magic and science can\'t be combined , they\'ll simply ruin each other .

Check the manual of Arcanum and you\'ll see the similarity...
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 Well , if devs don\'t want to change game to much ( and science in game is quite a change ) , than there is no point in those discusins . Isn\'t it ?


About similarity with Arcanum ... I read some books with same consept , long time before Arcanum was created ... So why this game can\'t use it as well ? Not to mention that it sounds logicaly to me .

Originally posted by Seytra
Example: torch.
Conventional, scientific torch: creates heat and light by oxidation process
Magically enhanced torch: uses same oxidation process, however emits all energy generated by said process to output only light.

Therefore, the magically enhanced torch will either output _way_ more light than the conventional torch, or can burn way longer with ame light output as said scientific torch. Or be much smaller.

Side-effect: it will not burn you.

 LOL , who need torches , if you have electric lamp ?!
And LOL again . I\'d like to see wizards in the game using torches , while they\'ll probably have \"light\" spell

Originally posted by Seytra
As for swords vs katanas: scientific theory comes from observation. Afterwards, the resulting theory can predict effects not easily observed. So the katana was made using the observation that grinding it repeatedly will improve it, without scientific theory. It also could be made lighter than a sword because it was more durable. I don\'t know weather they knew it was because of the resulting structure or not. I thought they knew, but if you say they didn\'t, I accept that.
When blacksmiths applied layered metal, they maybe had scientific theory, OK. So the advanced swords were scientific. This would, in your theory, then prevent them from being magically enhanced, while the katana could be, because it didn\'t use scientific theory?  
The mixing of stell and iron IMO is also just an observation or the product of experiements so it\'s the same as the grinding of katanas: applied obervation, not scientific theory. And I\'d be surprised if the makers of katanas used any iron they happened to come across, or just threw it into a lake to cool.

Still, I believe that even the most advanced swords were crude compared to a katana. However, katanas were not easily created (years and years for creating a single one, IIRC). Seeing that I don\'t know weather or not any of them had any scientific theory as opposed to observation, further arguing on my side would be pointless.

Actualy ... European blacksmiths knew both advantages and disadvantages of iron and steel swords and they wanted to get rid of those ... First who came up with a good idea were english blacksmiths ... They EXPERIMENTED ( which proves scientific aproach and no observation , they had goal to achive , unlike japanese blacksmiths )  and came up with mix of iron and steel ore . Japanece blacksmiths didn\'t exerimented much ...  However they found technology of layers ( somehow ) , but that\'s it ! They didn\'t used anything new . And don\'t think that technology of layers in weaponsmithing was unknown to european blacksmiths ... In 14 century they used it already , not for all swords , however , it took to long for them to to make such a swords , therefore , blacksmiths wanted compensation ... So only reach people or generals could aford those .
 And no , japanese blacksmiths didn\'t used any iron in their weapons ... Like I said before in my previos post , they used clay . And they wasted lots of time ( unlike european blacksmiths ) because of that method .
Oh and one more thing about katanas and swords ... You wrote that it took few  years to make one katana . LOOOOOOOOOOOOL !!! It actualy took few monthss , but not years ( profecional japanece blacksmiths were able to make up to 3 katanas per year ... Mostly bacause they were religous and waited for signal from their god(s) or Buda later on ... European blacksmiths could create few swords per day ( those were low grade swords , but it was usefull during a war ) . And do I need to say that people stoped using swords all over the world ( exept of isolated Japan ) , in 15 century ? They started using sabers and raipers . Those sabers or raipers that were created using layered technology were actualy as good as katanas ...  Even better , since those were one-handed weapons , unlike katanas .


Oh and , where the hell did you took that thing with a steam tank ?!?!?! And what\'s up with mud ?!?!?! And will ou stop using steam engine everywhere ?!?!?! Like I wrote before ... Steam engine was only EXAMPLE !!! IT\'S NOT THE ONLY ENGINE !!! Ofcourse , I didn\'t meant diesel engines ...

Oh and the flying race you wrote about , those are playeble characters ... They have thin skeleton , and they can\'t use heavy or madium armour , but that doesn\'t makes them weak ...

Originally posted by Seytra
Why? Because MAGIC CAN DO ANYTHING! Why should it be limited to non-scientific devices only? After all, the most scientific device still obeys the same rules as, well, mud. No difference, you could even have a whole scientific theory of mud, create completely artificial mud. Would this mud than be excluded from being influenced by magic? I don\'t think it could be.

Originally posted by Seytra
As for your strength-enhancing armour powered by steam: I hate it. Anyway, it will not work due to lack of water (tank can only be tiny). Furthermore, it will not work because it\'d be too crude unless you imply modern-tech valves and pressure- powered actuators. IOW, it would be bulky at best. Not to mention that it\'d be kinda warm to have a nice, cozy fire burning inside your backpack all the time, while pipes (made of metal, I presume), filled with ~90?C - tempered water or even hotter steam, run along your body! Of course, you _could_ insulate the temperature, but this would be a matter of extreme bulkiness. It would add to armor, though...

For screaming out loudly !!!First you\'re talking about magic , then you\'re talking about scientific stuff and giving scientific explanations to evey thing and you\'re proving that it can\'t exist !!! You\'re taking it to real!!! BUT TOGETHER WITH IT YOU\'RE THINKING THAT MAGIC CAN DO EVERYTHING !!! Think about eveything as if it\'s in FANTASY world . Or stop talking crap about magic and how it can improve our modern technology !!! You\'re forgeting that it\'s not existing IRL !!! And for GOD sake !!! Stop using all of those \"IRL , IMO , IIRC\" and other stuff like that . I don\'t even understand half of it !!!
Well  ,exept IRl=in real life ... I think ...



 I used that conseption with laws of nature to seperate magic from science . Otherwise there would be no point chosing one ore another . The whole idea will simply loose it\'s interest to people .


To what Zorium said ...

 I didn\'t maent to offend anybody with those words ... I wanted to make an example of how they used something without of interest why it\'s happening ... I hope all those who got offended with my words will accept my apologies .

Japanece blacksmiths started working on katanas in 11th or 12 century if I\'m not mistaken ... again .

(But monkies don\'t know anything about kinetic energy .... )


 About mixing iron and steel ...
Iron swirds were flexible , unlike swords made out of steel ... Blacksmiths wanted to make swords out of stel more flexible ... Maybe I was wrong when I said that they mixed both iron and steel ore ... But they used them both in creation of swords . That way their swords were both flexible and hard ... Maybe it wasn\'t as strong as pure steel , but it wouldn\'t brake if heavy axe would hit it ...

Dude , there\'s plenty of MUDs all over the web . Why don\'t you just look for something that suits you

1)

Originally posted by Gronomist
That sounds like a very bad idea taken from some very bad korean hack&slash game. BAD IDEA!

 Actualy i was refearing to AD&D series ... Where enchanted weapon is a common thing ( you know , long sword +1 , +2 ... up to +5 , and there are special weapons the ones you can\'t buy in stores ... Like Corsomir ( greate sword +5 , gives 50% magic ressistance , on hit: remove magic spell , spell failure 20% , double dammage to evil creatures , paladins only )

2)

Originally posted by Gronomist
First of all, magical weapons are not to be commonly available. In fact, only people who can actually make those weapons themselves should own them. That means you don\'t go on a raid and simply dump a magical item because there is no more room in your backpack (hello diablo!). That\'s very bad style.

First of all , give a link , where I can read about magic and magical items in the game , since I know nothing about it !!! If you\'ll do it , I might come up with a better ideas . And secondly , I hate Diablo and ALL hack&slash games . And the last thing that I want is thet this game would look like those .

3)

Originally posted by Gronomist
As for spell-enhanced weapons, you might get a spell that makes your sword give magical damage instead of physical damage only. No bonus, just the fact that you can now kill things that require magical weapons to kill. A spell such as that could last for 24 hours, or something similar to that.

  Actualy ... that\'s how all \"+1\" weapons work (in normal games ofcourse) . Enchancments gave you ability to dammage creatures that normal weapons would do no effect on those ... Ofcource , there were stronger magic mobs and only strongest enchantments ( Corsomir +5 YAY )worked on those . But that\'s not to the point . What I wanted to say is that if it\'s +# weapon , it would do magic dammage already ... And not raize weapon\'s stats , like in korean hack&slash games .
24 hours ?!?!?! Isn\'t that TOO LONG ?

3)

Originally posted by Gronomist
Science items... I don\'t know. Sure, there can be guns like in the medieval times, but you need to remember. There was a 75% chance they blew up in your hand. If they actually did fire, they were more noisy than damaging, and it took a LONG time to reload. So guns and the like should be kept for viewing purposes only. About steam armors or whatever, I don\'t really get the idea. This isn\'t some Wild Wild West-like game with big robots and whatever, this is a fantasy medieval game.

That\'s bull about medievil guns . It\'s true that they were long ro reload , but they were reliable ... Not those crapy german cannons ( if there are any germans , sorry , but that\'s true ) ... In 14th sentury , when guns only came to Europe , were all crapy , but there was no 75% of blowing up ... it was 75% of shooting ( and it was at europian guns only  , rusian guns at that time were the best - historical fact , but not to the point ) .

Not so powerfull ? Eh ? Gun loaded with stones wouldn\'t pierce full plate , no ... But it would brake soldier\'s bones and that way it would make him useless during a war . Guns loaded with iron bullets , however , would pass throgh full plate ( and a guy in it ) as if it would be made of paper ... And next 3 guys , who were behind first one would get same bullet ... It would stuck in 4th guy thogh ...
 Wild Wild West ?!?!?! Dude , you\'re watching too many movies And i wasn\'t talking about that giant spider robot or that tank . And I didn\'t meant steam powered armour ( althogh I wrote it like that . I\'m not deneing it ) . What I meant is a very heavy armour with a small engine mounted in it , that would ease your movements in it .

 And before you\'ll start reminding me again that it\'s a fantasy game , let me tell you something . I know it !!! But you should not forget that ias well . It\'s a FANTASY game  . Meaning ? There could be everything in fantasy !Even steam powered engine , since it\'s a fantasy game ...
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  You know what Seytra , to all what you said I can say only one thing : it\'s even crapier then my ideas . You know why ? Because magic manipulates the laws of nature ( I\'m not talking about druids and other stuff like that , I\'m talking about physics ) , changes them how it likes ( well , how the mage likes ) . Science , however , follows those laws , uses them , all the science based on those laws ( the ones that magic manipulates them ) . Therefore , magic and science can\'t be combined , they\'ll simply ruin each other . For that reason you can\'t take sword that was made with scientificaly aproach and to enchance it . ANd therefore : forget everything you wrote about magic artifacts that created with a use of science .

 Magicly animated robots ?!?!?! Were you refearing to golems ?!?!?! Huge guys made out of stone or iron ( look at the race , called kran ) ? And steam engines are not the only engines that can exist in that world ,  you know ... It was just an example ! And for the same reasons I wrote earlier , robotrs , can\'t be \"magicly animated\" .

Originally posted by Seytra
So magic would, IMO, be an enhancement of scientifically created stuff and for things that require scientific theory that isn\'t possible in medieval times. One must, however, acknowledge that magic, by enhancing scientific devices, can actually speed up research in other sciences besides magic itself. What if a device similar to an electron-microscope would have been available in medieval times due to magical enhancement? The resulting scientific theories could then be appiled and the resulting devices enhanced ba magic once more, so all development would receive a serious speed-up.

 Speaking of history ... If curch wouldn\'t burn all the scientists in past for their \"heresy\" and \"blasephy\" , there could be already steam engine in 16th sentury . Not to mention that idea of microscope was already known in ancient Greece ... They didn\'t made it thogh , but they had scopes .


Now about your \"sword and katana\" thing ... Katana is the sword  . And swords wern\'t made so easily as you think . Did you knew that in England in 14th century , blacksmiths used mix of iron and steal to create swords . Such mix gave to the swords fexibility of iron and hardness of steel at the same time . And they wern\'t so crude at all . That mix had scientific origins ...

Now let\'s take katanas . They had absolutely no scientific origins . True , they pulverized it again and again and again and again ... They only knew it would make their stell harder . They didn\'t knew why or how would it make it better , they just knew it and they used it  . Preaty same thing that with monkey , that throws stick at bananas so tat they would fall . It don\'t know why bananas are falling , it just knows tha they falling and that\'s all what she needs ... Latter on . Starting from 13 century ( if I\'m corect ) , weaponsmiths started to use layers of steel in their work . Now THAT was a scientific origin . They used thin layers of steel .Twenty of those layers were combined to create sword . Then when they were combined weaponsmiths were using two diferent clays ( YAY !!! They finaly started to think ) . First kind of clay was used on blade itself and the other - on the rest of the sword . that way  , when sword was taken to the forge , different tempretuers were needed for blade and the rest of the sword to be ready . It would allow to blade to be very hard and durable , while the rest of sword\'s \"body\" ( don\'t know how to say it on english ) would be flexible and hard at the same time . And that\'s where they started to think acualy ... The problem is they used it even when spanish colonists used guns ...

Originally posted by Elegrand
Why should each spell have a gadget equivelent? We\'re not all scientist/blacksmiths/warriors or sorceres/priests/priestesses/mages etc.
Magical folk would prefer to use spells and magic, whilst non-magical folk would use scince and gadgets.

 It shouldn\'t !!! But there should be some small things equal at both sides ... Like I wrote about light spell . But only few !!! And definately not EACH spell and gadget !!!

Originally posted by DepthBlade
I like your concept alot but I am not 100 percent sure because I don\'t keep my eye on it but they might have that system figured the way they want it already. *shrugs* like I said not sure!

That\'s fine with me ... as long as they\'ll give you a choise to follow path of science or magic  .
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Originally posted by Ineluke
You should revise your idea a little and have some things only science can do and some only magic. Post again. I think its a good idea but you need to iron out the bugs first...

 Those ideas that I wrote there came to my head right when I started to write this thread , I didn\'t thought much about it , I just wrote what came on my mind . But yeah . I agree with you . It\'s pointless to have to have paralize spell in magic and some devise that would basicaly do the same thing as paralize spell . That\'s not what I meant in my previus post . It\'s true , there should be different abilities , but some small things ( like light spell and lamp ( possibly electrick , which is much better then a torchlight ) or open locks spell and some high-tech lockpicks that can give you some bonuse to your picklock skill ) - al of those things should exist at both sides . Am I right ? Let\'s say with magic you can enhance your sword to +1 , +2 , +3 (and so on ... ) and sometimes you can put some minor (but usefull ) spell on it ( like stun at hit with some percent on succes ) . With science , however , you can create a better sword or upgrade an existing one . You may also customize that weapon ( since it belongs to science domain now ) and add some devises to it ... It won\'t be equal to +1 , +2 , +3 ( and so on ) and especialy that won\'t be MAGIC weapon . But it will be good weapon anyway . And what is more important , it actualy , will be YOUR weapon . You\'l be with it for a long time , you\'ll customize it , upgrade it , you\'ll add difrent modifications to it and you\'ll take care of it like it\'s your child . And what happens to magical weapon ? When you have weapon +1 and you get weapon +2 or higher , you\'re simply selling it to somebody , because you don\'t need it anymore ( and don\'t say \"no\" - that\'s fact ) . Can\'t say anything about magic , since I don\'t know exists already ( in devs heads )  .... But for science - you could craft all kinds of arrows . Explosive arrow for example , or armour piercing arrow or arrow with vial of acid in it .

Speacking of armour ... For example - magic heavy plate . It offers uber protection , but it\'s heavy and slow . Heavy plate that you made with the help of science has lower protection ,  but it\'s light and you can move with it almost freely ... ALMOST .

Those are few things that can be at both magic and science ... However it\'s not all what they have ... Ofcourse they\'ll have lots of different inventions(devises , gadgets)/spells . It\'s just that right now I can\'t figure out anything of particular ... I\'ll try to made up something more ...
 But feal free to share your thoughts

P.S: Oh wait got one already ... How about steam powered robot as your pet ? Oh ... And here comes another one : If you\'ll combine a set of gadgets, you\'ll get steam engine ... Exept robot don\'t know where it can be usefull as well ... Wait  !!! I got it !!! Steam powered super-uber upgraded heavy mechanical armour ( Hmmm... Will do for veeeeeery high-level characters )

Anybody have any ideas about trainer job ? What\'ll it be ? I like the idea of having familiar , but I woun\'t be training pet only for me , won\'t I ?

Lol

A little corrcetions of myself

\"...Hmmm ... Nevermind that question about job , I already know the most popular question \" - it\'s not question , it\'s answear ... From \"Newbies Top 45\"


Oh and thanks for a worm melcome