Originally posted by Cha0s
Askr: I\'d like to point out a flaw in your \"the different languages of the players correspond to the different languages of races in Yliakum.\" The issue is that you can\'t have all of the races randomly speaking different languages. Yes, it is true that someone with a French parent and a German parent can grow up speaking only Italian.

That is not my point.  That was something someone else brought in response to my point.  

But this case is rare and unlikely. Most people of direct French descent speak French. Most people of direct Italian descent speak Italian. Most of the educated world also speaks English (this is not a rap on those that do not. I\'m sure there are some quite intelligent people who speak not a word of English). English represents the common \"interracial\" language for communication in Planeshift as it does in the real-world (I think we can agree on this?).

I do not deny this.  Matter of fact, several times I have been forced to point out the fact that I am entirely aware of this.  And it appears, that yet again, I am forced to do so.

The problem arises when you look at the number of people of each race speaking each language. Thirteen races do not all have the same set of languages. I\'d guess that you\'d find a roughly even distribution of German-speaking players (example) over all of the races. Yes, it is possible for people of one race to learn the language of another. However, this is the exception not the rule. Unless you can make almost every Italian player play a dwarf, and every German player play a Klyros, etc. (note this is an example, of course, these specifics match-ups don\'t matter), then your role-play justification for languages doesn\'t work:
If languages are not realistic, they are not in-character (this is supposed to be a realistic world, fantasy elements aside).
Therefore, if they are not in-character, they do not belong in public chat.

And again, given what he have, the above statements do not lead to this conclusion.  We have races that arrive in Yliakum from different locations...those locations are not specified.. the languages those races speak are not specified.  The timeframe is not specified.  The only fact is that English is a Common Tongue.  We have no lifespans for said races.  We have no geographical statistics -- what language is more predominant on what level.  No cultural statistics.   Etc.  All of these things -- and more -- are necessary for a realistic examination of language.

Realism of language at this point is a matter of speculation, opinion, preference and assumption.  Until there is provision made for determining language dispersion and transformation realistically, we cannot make the claims that have been made so far.  IOW there is no valid reason why a language would have disappeared, changed, or intermixed with the language of any other race.

Create the necessary information and in a short period of time we can determine the number of languages still in existence, the dispersion of such languages, who is more likely to speak these languages (is it based upon social structure, occupation, level of education, location, etc).  Then and only then will it be realistic.  

Likewise, not every individual of a race needs speak the same language.  There has been provision made in the game for a character of one race to have been raised in the village/city/realm of another race.  Language should easily enough follow.

I hope I\'ve reasoned this through thoroughly enough for your standards.

While I admit you were a bit more cordial about it, you are still basing everything upon the same assumptions.  Logically you would come to the same conclusions.  Therefore, your reasoning is really not much different than anyone elses.

To illustrate my point.  If I follow your logic and considering the lack of information available at the moment, in addition to language we can safely assume that:

1.  There is no retention of previous culture in any of the races (except perhaps Lemurs and Kran).  This of course cannot be true because it would invalidate much of what has been written about each race so far.
2.  There is no retention or continuation of previous racial strengths and weaknesses (except for perhaps Lemur and Kran).  This of course cannot be true because it would invalidate much of what is going to be implemented in the future and what is known currently.
3.  There is no differentiation between communities on different levels, much less on the same level.  As has been pointed out many times, everything is already implemented in the RP world.  

Why is that, you might say?  Well because, as anyone who knows will tell you, language is the bearer of culture and a culture\'s customs.  If the languages cease to exist then it follows that the culture has also,  because the culture defines the language.  Understand?  If the language is gone, the culture that goes with it  is gone.  Example: to define something such as \"god and faith\" you do so by your culture\'s customs.  Now let us say \"dyeus and bhedh\".  You have something entirely different, though you have essentially stated the same thing.  What you understand the words to mean depends upon your culture.

Therefore what we have is a single mass of different looking people, coming from different places, living on different levels and interacting/existing by different means but who, for some unknownable reason, are all just a like mentally and linguistically.  This is both illogical and unrealistic.  An example:

If these races have been interbreeding by necessity for say 750 years (which would be necessary according to the opposition), then there should be less differentiation between the races.  No appearence will continue indefinitely, it will eventually be replaced by the appearence of new (shared) racial characteristics.  Same goes with language, if the interbreeding was by necessity and the races have relatively short life-spans, then there would be fewer numbers retaining anything from the past and predominant use of a single language would result.  This would also mean that the original cultures are now relatively nonexistant, except in foktales and distant memory (elders remembering the days when their grandfathers used to dance under the lunar light).

This is all very practical and realistic according to the information at hand.  It is also really rather logical, again according to the information available.  The only two races that thrived on their own were Lemurs and Kran.  All other races came through portals and were in all likelihood very few.  Therefore in order for the race to survive they would have had to interbreed.  Inbreeding with too few couples causes the death of a species as everyone knows.  With the necessary inter-breeding of the limited couples the languages, culture, and past identity would all die out in a few generations.  The common tongue spoken would have in all likelihood been the speech of the Lemurs and Kran as they were created in Yliakum and were already established.  Therefore it would have been their language that was picked up and then dispersed throughout the levels as the new \'tribes\', \'clans\', \'races\' (all in a rather limited sense) dispersed and spread through the realm.  Then you must question why the dwarfs have such a pride of their race and the Xacha are proud of their origins and traditions, and so on and so forth.

I won\'t get into the possibilities if the races didn\'t arrive at a reasonably close interval.

I like my realism and logic to be a bit more realistic and logical.  If we aren\'t going to conform to realism, then any language can be spoken by any person.  Realism, reality, fact, are all objective they don\'t partially apply in certain but not all situations -- even in a game world -- or else they are in fact not realistic, reality, or fact.  Basically, if you want realism be realistic.  Don\'t just claim realism because you can.

In all of this I find it humorous that there has been suggested ways to make the different races speak different languages and not be understandable by the other races.  That would of course be acceptable and not disruptive.  But speaking French is disruptive, a sign of laziness, poor etiquette, grounds for hostility and segregation -- all because it is spam and will cram the chat window.  What choice words will we call those who don\'t speak our language if that feature is implemented?  Perhaps by then we can be more creative.

Originally posted by Seytra
Hmm, quite interesting. How come then that in America everyone is capable of speaking english, given that

Have you been to America?  Do you live there?  Have you actually set foot outside?

1.  Not everyone in America is capable of speaking English.
2.  There are still lots of different languages spoken in America.
3.  Mixing has little influence on this discussion since we have no information regarding generation gaps, life spans, or statistical information concerning racial dispersion over the history of Yliakum.

Well, your statement doesn\'t even have any claim besides \"I\'m right\" and \"You\'re stupid\". Which is a bit sad.

But your statement concerning my laziness and community adaptation is somehow meaningful?  Again, did I state anywhere that you were \'stupid\'?  

Lol, I\'m perfectly able to control my emotions, unlike you, it seems, judging from your wording.

What wording was that?  Where you said I called you stupid?  Hmmm... Was it where I brought up hostility?  So far you are the only one bringing up emotions.

Seriously, yes, I am not supposed to enter their conversation, eh?....

RP is about communication.  But RP with you is not a requirement.  Ignore realism?  It is a fantasy world, how far are you going to push realism?  Realism is not everyone speaks the same language.  Realism is not everyone gives a care if you want them to speak your language.  Realism is not everyone wants you to be a part of their experiences.  Realism is not \" go out of your way to make Seytra happy\".  When you want to be realistic, let me know.

That doesn\'t surprise me, as you seem to be in general unwilling to actually think about the arguments and what people are trying to say with them.

Unwilling to think about the arguments?  Hmmm.... I have thought about it from both sides.  Its really a very simple argument actually.

You came accross as believing that PS ...

Not my belief at all.  I know the reason why English is used.

Your claim that other languages are OK in PS only makes sense if ...

You are talking statistics now.  Your reasoning has completely changed in two posts.  And since you based these arguments on a false assumption, they are again baseless and useless in your defense.

So it has a lot to do with this conversation, as it should have served to prove that there actually is....

No really it doesn\'t support your stance at all.  Even considering the sudden switch in reasoning behind your stance.

I think you are lacking points, maturity and willingness to integrate...

Willingness to integrate?  I am speaking English.  English is my native tongue.  What are you talking about, willingness to integrate?  Maturity?  You mean like the maturity involved in becoming hostile because someone is not speaking English?  Or the maturity involved in segregating myself from other players because they are not speaking English?  What maturity are you referring to precisely?  The maturity based upon the reasoning that \"because everyone else is doing it so should you\"....

Hmm, to find out, you might wish to read it some time, maybe? ...

Read what?  Your stance?  I\'ve read it.  It went from emotional breakdowns (hostility towards non-English speaking people) and segregation (subcultures) to being one about statistical values of English speaking people.  Somewhere in there you attempted to throw in the fact that the Devs have chosen English over their (one\'s, someone\'s) native Italian and are trying to use that as a basis to necessitate speaking English in-game.  Regardless of the fact that no provision for such a necessity has been made.  I  have read it and I am fully aware of your stance.

I am also aware of the PS background.  On the otherhand you seem to enjoy making assumptions based upon non-existent information and attribute those false assumptions to the PS world.

Well, the fact that you don\'t want them to carry weight doesn\'t mean they don\'t...

Everyone?  Everyone consists of many more people than 3.  I am sure you are aware of that little fact.  It doesn\'t matter if I want them to carry weight or not.  Until a rule is made, everything else is just wishful thinking.

Hmm, the tactic of adding \"Another baseless example\" ...

It is not a tactic.  It is simply pointing out your poor examples.  Actual arguments?  \'The language of the place you are in\' is not an argument when there is no single language of the place I am in.  It makes no sense and has no validity as an example in this discussion.  Which is what makes it baseless.

Anyway, this quite obviously is not restricted to any particular place. The points to take are:

Your goal was to communicate with only one single person?  If so, you are not contributing to the RP environment and might be considered to be stalking.  Or is your goal to communicate with every person there?  Because we both know the latter is not true.  If I need to dig up quotes to prove so, I will.

4) this example is an almost perfect, and thus a highly relevant comparison to the situation we are discussing.

It is nowhere near perfect because:

a.  Your goal is not to communicate with every single person but to RP in the PS environment.  Communication is only allowable in an RP manner and therefore any normal daily communication with non-English speaking people would not take place anyway.
b. The language is not official until it is stated to be so in TOS, User Agreement or in the game information itself.  Which no such statement exists.
c.  This game has not been created for the sole purpose of you fulfilling your goal.  It is created for the enjoyment of many people, of which you are but one.

Therefore you dismissing it as baseless cannot be explained by logic.

This statement is illogical.

Here comes the immaturity again, paired with gross inability to read properly...

That is humorous.

It\'s not spam because it doesn\'t directly pertain to me...

Almost noone....

It floods the screen...

The same could be said for you.  Regardless, if you don\'t like it... use the ignore filter.  Or does that fall under the issue of laziness?

Now isn\'t the contradiction funny?

That is not a contradiction.  

Especially given that yes indeed my point was that I am here solely to communicate with others?...

Because they are not here for the sole purpose of assisting you in fulfilling your goal.  This game is not about you.  The fact that you think it is somehow centered around you is in reality a bit rude.  I believe the name is PlaneShift, not Seytra\'s Goals.

You see, if you think that these unwilling to adopt the community\'s language ...

No because they are not saying that you must help them fulfill their goals.  You are saying they must help you fulfill yours.  That then makes you the center of the issue, because you want them to conform to your desires, and not the other way around.  They are content to not have you involved in their experience, whereas you feel they should somehow strive to better your experience.

Is it furthermore not funny how you accuse me ...

And apparently they have no issue with that.  On the other hand you seem to take issue in the fact that they can and will play the game without you.

Oh, and before you go \"The other players aren\'t there for you!\" again: What are they there for, then?

To play the game.

If you abstract the concept \"me\" to \"other players\", which is completely valid...

They are not there to provide an option.   They are there to RP for their own benefit.  They didn\'t join this game to please others.  They joined the game to enjoy the pleasure themselves.   You are not necessary for that.

So therefore by entering PS, you are indeed promising to allow that interaction for others...

No such promises were made.  Nor were they asked of any players joining PS.  I am not there for you.  Don\'t think so highly of yourself to think that I have any interest in assisting you in your goals, RP or otherwise.

As I elaborated above, \"me\" is merely a placeholder for \"anyone\". About meeting them halfway...

Entirely serious.  The exact same way you would interact with people IRL that don\'t speak your language.  Meet them halfway.

I don\'t see them trying to meet the community even a tiny little bit on the way, BTW.

They weren\'t communicating with you.  Therefore they were in no need to meet you even a little bit of the way.

It\'s always the newcomer who needs to go the greatest part of the way...

Never.  It is always the elders who should be doing the most to set the best examples.  The newcomers should always have the leaway needed to find their niche and become accustomed to the new environment.

Ah, yes, you are obviously one of the people who insist on doing things unless a court rules against it...

Etiquette differs from place to place.  I don\'t consider trying to force feed newcomers my personal goals to be proper etiquette.

Entering a place where english is the language of choice ...

Again there are no provisions made for language.  So it is the language of your choice.  Obviously the majority\'s as well, but it is not the only option.  That is just your misguided belief.

And it is the reason why people start getting hostile towards those who are rude

You are the only rude individual so far.   Your manners are atrocious.  Your choice of wording is very nearly insulting and your arguments are demonstrative of one who thinks more of himself than the community he is so savagely trying to defend.

, and in the long run towards foreigners in general,

This is an internet RP World.  There are no foreigners.  I am quite amused that you did mention this though.  It serves well to demonstrate why you are taking such an interest in these matters.

because they have had to learn that a lot of them are rude...

So now you are at issue with nationalities other than yourself.  Has this game become your personal playground so that you can spread your potentially hateful (or was that hostile?) beliefs?

No, I don\'t agree with \"nuke France\", nor any other country...

So they should give up who they are to be just like you because you don\'t approve of their difference?

When you go somewhere and indulge yourself in blatantly disregarding the local customs...

That is your point of view simply reversed.  I would gather that is not the point of view for the vast majority of people.

When someone goes somewhere and indulges in blatantly disregarding the local customs...

Again that is how you view the world.  Your customs do not apply, because this is a fantasy world.  There are no provisions made for language.  Until then, there are no \"customs\" concerning languages, there just assumptions.

Askr: Find a single post from me where I complain about people using different language. I simply understand that some people may be annoyed by it and state my opinion about it. You know, thinking about others instead of going \"Boohoo....let me shed a tear.\"?

So you choose to think about those \'others\' that are worried about someone speaking a different language than them.

I have chosen to think about those people who speak a different language and who are being asked to not speak their native tongue because it might make someone hostile or create some gulf between the players or somehow interfere with the RP of a world that has absolutely no provision for language (either RP or OOC).

Perhaps what you are implying is that the only people who are worth thinking about are those that speak English, since you seem to think that I am not thinking of others.  

You know what annoys me?  People who think that their opinions and ideas are the only ones of value.  People who think that their time is somehow more worthy than the next persons.  People who think that everyone in this game world should conform to how they think the world should be RPed, believed, interacted with, and so on and so forth.  I\'m sure you get the idea.

Out of everything that I have said in my posts, the only thing you retained was \"boohoo...let me shed a tear\".

Originally posted by Seytra
Precisely, not to mention the fact that the races of Yliakum have at least 750 full years of living together, mixed and even half of them are married to a member of another race. So how would it be possible that just out of the blue someone pops up without knowing the common tongue? How is it possible that the native tongues would even have survived in any but rare niece / historical use?

I take it you know little about linguistics.  And since you don\'t I would gather it would probably not be wise to try and base an argument upon linguistics when you know little about it.  750 years is not sufficient, even in a closed environment, for languages to disappear.  Not to mention that 750 years means squat when we have no lifespans for the races.

No, it would be inconvenient for those who can\'t be bothered to at least try to speak in the language of the community. Those who can\'t be bothered to integrate themselves. Yes, it\'s just like IRL: given a sufficiently large population of different cultural background, what happens is not that they will integrate, thereby enriching the society by mixing their culture with the local one, but instead form a subculture, completely separate from the local one, which will at best create an enclave, and most commonly create hostility.
So no, it isn\'t the community that has to adapt to your laziness, it is you who have to adapt to the community standards. The language requirement is there for a very good reason: to allow maximum interaction between the maximum number of players. That is why english was chosen. Did you know that PS originates from Italy? Do you also know that the italians happen to speak italian, not english? So it is quite obvious that they didn\'t chose english for their convenience.

My laziness?  Your arguments are both inane and unfounded.  The community doesn\'t have to adapt to anything.  I don\'t believe I stated that it did.  Another baseless statement on your part.

You are not expected to enter into their conversation if you don\'t understand the language.  If you are incapable of managing your emotions so as not to become hostile to those who speak a foreign tongue, well then that speaks more about you than it does any actual problems.

Did you know that your final questions are again absolutely useless.  I gathered it originated, or at least had current home in Italy because of the web address.  What that has to do with this conversation, I don\'t know.

I think you just like to see yourself post on these boards.

Care to elaborate on the thirteenth and fourteenth race, please? I must have missed them in the setting and the race page...
Anyway, the reasons for the races speaking a common tongue have been explained above.

1. Xacha
2. Ylians
3. Nolthrir
4. Dermorians
5. Dwarves
6. Lemurs
7. Kran
8. Diaboli
9. Enkidukai
10. Klyros
11. Ynnwns

Okay so I miss counted.  I hope your entire point didn\'t rest upon that...

No they haven\'t been explained above.  There actually have been no explanations that carry any weight, other than the one given by ACraig.  Just because you make comments and give poorly thought reasons, does not make an explanation.

Yes, yes, and you would be just as happy if you were to negotiate something, or learn from someone refusing to speak the language of the place you are in, hmm?

The language of the place you are in?

What language would that be?  Just out of curiosity?  I guess you mean the place I am in -- were I there say several hundred years ago before the world became such a global community.  Another baseless example.

IRL, when people don\'t talk your language, it doesn\'t matter because
1) you have not only one small chat window that is cluttered up by the spam (yes, it is spam, because there is no way you can ever get any useful info from it)

Here come those tears again.  You can\'t RP it because you don\'t speak the language.  Its in your window but doesn\'t pertain directly to you, so its spam.  Get used to it...if you don\'t like that you might have to interact with others perhaps you should be playing a single player game.  Then you won\'t have to worry about the fact that not everyone in the game is there for you.

2) you are not there for the sole purpose of interacting with them. PS is solely about the interaction of the players by means of their chars in a roleplay way. It\'s really obvious that the first and foremost requirement is a common language that the maximum of players speak. It is, in fact, childish to insist on not adhering to the common sense agreement. :tdown:

They are not there for the sole purpose of interacting with you.  They are here to interact with other players in the PS game environment.  Not you alone.  If you can\'t meet them halfway, then they sure as hell don\'t have to meet you all the way.

I don\'t remember having to agree to speaking English when I signed up to play PS.  Therefore it is not actually an agreement on my part, and therefore not on anyone else\'s part.  It is simply a wish on your part.  And the fact that you feel everyone must assist in making your wish come true is really the only childishness I see so far.

Originally posted by Bebel
We could say that english is the common language in Yialkum ^^  and that some Kran, Lemur ect ... didn\'t learn it

We can considere it in Rp that they didn\'t learn the common language
it could be happen no?

No because that would be inconvenient for all the people who want everyone to speak their language.  It would also make evesdropping so much more difficult.  It would also not give these people something to whine about.

We have 13 races (14 if separate the dwarfen clans) and yet we can only have 1 language.  Each of these races are expected to have different RP origins, but they all manage to speak the exact same language.

The fact that there is any arguing/debating over this is a bit childish.  The world is populated by different people, do you feel distracted/hurt/inable to continue with your normal life every time you hear someone speak in a foreign language?  Probably not, but for some reason you cannot continue in a game the same way.

A few of my favorites....

>     \"Freedom is always and exclusively freedom for the one who thinks differently.\" -- Rosa Luxemburg
>     \"Freedom is hammered out on the anvil of discussion, dissent, and debate.\" -- Hubert H. Humphrey
>     \"Revolution is like the daughters of Pelias: it cuts humanity to pieces in order to rejuvenate it.\" -- Georg Buchner
>     \"Chaos is a name for any order that produces confusion in our minds.\" -- George Santayana
>     \"Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.\" -- Henry Brooks Adams
>        \"In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order.\" -- Carl Jung
>     \"The world is chaos.  Nothingness is the yet-to-be-born god of the world.\" -- Georg Buchner
>     \"I have great belief in the fact that whenever there is chaos, it creates wonderful thinking.  I consider chaos a gift.\" -- Septima Clark
>     \"Has there ever been a society which has died of dissent?  Several have died of conformity in our lifetime.\" -- Jacob Bronowski
>     \"No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels.  Dissent, rebellion and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots.\" -- Barbara Ehrenreich
>     \"What we imagine is order is merely the prevailing form of chaos.\" -- Kerry Thronley
>     \"Before the beginning of great brilliance, there must be chaos.  Before a Brilliant person begins something great, they must look foolish in the crowd.\" -- The I Ching
>     \"We often rebel against the strenuousness and chaos of our time.  But historically it has always been in such time that man won his great inner victories.\"-- E.M. McKee
>     \"At one point consciousness-altering devices like the microscope and telescope were criminalized for exactly the same reasons that psychedelic plants were banned in later years.  They allow us to peer into bits and zones of Chaos.\" -- Timothy Leary
>     \"In terms of the game theory, we might say the universe is so constituted as to maximize play.  The best games are not those in which all goes smoothly and steadily toward a certain conclusion, but those in which the outcome is always in doubt.  Similarly, the geometry of life is designed to keep us at the point of maximum tension between certainty and uncertainty, order and chaos.  Every important call is a close one.  We survive and evolve by the skin of our teeth.  We really wouldn\'t want it any other way.\" -- George Leonard
>     \"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered.  An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.\" -- G.K. Chesterton
>     \"Men have become the tools of their tools.\" -- Henry David Thoreau
>     \"Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing.\" -- Oscar Wilde
>     \"Sanity calms, but madness is more interesting.\" -- John Russell
>     \"Those are my principles, and if you don\'t like them... well, I have others.\" -- Groucho Marx
>     \"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.\"  -- Robert Anton Wilson
>     \"Read, every day, something no one else is reading.  Think, every day, something no one else is thinking.  Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do.  It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.\"  --  Christopher Morley
>     \"Nothing inspires forgiveness quite like revenge.\"  --  Scott Adams
>     \"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don\'t matter and those who matter don\'t mind.\" -- Dr. Seuss
>     \"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities.  The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.\"  --  Albert Einstein
>     \"Things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.\"  --  William Butler Yeats
>     \"The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities.  We need men who can dream of things that never were.\"  -- John F. Kennedy
>     \"Although it is generally known, I think its about time to announce that I was born at a very early age.\"  --  Groucho Marx
>     \"Observe constantly that all things take place by change, and accustom thyself to consider that the nature of the Universe loves nothing so much as to change the things which are, and to make new things like them.\"  -- Marcus Aurelius Antoninus
>     \"Nothing is true; Everything is permitted.\" -- Hassan I Sabbah
>     \"No two equals are the same.\" -- Principia Discordia
>     \"Do not adjust your mind: It is reality that is malfunctioning.\" -- Robert Anton Wilson
>     \"The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.\" -- Archibald Macleish

Originally posted by Shami
Do you believe in this war? Or do you think our soldiers are wasting their lives, fighting for what they believe in?

What do you think the soldiers believe?  Soldiers are told to go to war, their only other option is to be brought up on charges.  They fight, because that is what they have to do.  They are told some line of bs about how this war is necessary and good and right and justified and then they load up and get shipped off.  If they are lucky they will return and can retire and live out there lives.  If not, they die in combat, their families suffer, and do you know the reason why?  Because the President said so.  

Good enough for you?

If someone told you to walk into the middle of a busy intersection would you do it because that person said to?  Probably not, yet our soldiers (our brothers and sisters, sons and daughters, fathers and mothers) get sent to their deaths because someone sitting in an office said it should be done.  Hell they don\'t even get to die on their own soil, in the arms of their loved ones.  They don\'t get to say goodbye.  Some of them don\'t even get to see their children being born.  They don\'t get to come home at night and kiss their kids, wives, husbands, goodnight.  No bedtime stories for them.  No birthdays.  No graduations.  No weddings.

Have you paid attention to all the little flags and banners and t-shirts being worn, or paraded on vehicles or put up as posters?  They say \"Support our Troops\"  \"Pray for our Soldiers\"....  They never say \"Pray for our children\" \"Support our Parents\" and so on.  It is so much easier to disconnect when they are soldiers or troops.  It is much easier to justify the fact that they are being sent to die for a pointless and fruitless cause.  If we were constantly reminded that the soldier who just died, for absolutely no reason other than the whim of the President, was your neighbors son, or daughter or the father or mother of your childs friend, etc, we would be putting up a hell of an argument to get them back.

Contrary to popular opinion, disagreeing with your government leaders is not unpatriotic.  Bush should be held accountable, but the American people won\'t do it, because they\'ve become complacent.  The rest of the government won\'t do it becuase they are too busy bickering over petty issues.  And Bush won\'t admit to it and back down himself, because well...why should he?  Out of decency?  Respect?  Honor?  Common courtesy?   He will never admit he sent 2000 children to their death for no reason, and that doesn\'t count the children of other nations that died because of his influence.

I think most people tend to think of successful attacks as always being clean hits.  In combat situations, particularly when weapons larger than knives are being used, there are rarely clean hits.  Even if you are outskilled, you will still block or evade to some degree the attacks coming at you.  Training helps to improve one\'s ability to block and evade attacks, while improving your ability to strike in a way that makes it more difficult for your opponent to block or evade your attacks.  No one is perfect, and therefore no one can successfully block every blow.  The result is being hit for non-fatal damage.  The blow is partially blocked, but the attack still penetrates the defense.  Or the blow is partially evaded, but not completely.  You end up with cuts, bruises, broken bones, etc, but you are not dead.... yet.  If you end up with enough cuts and bruises, etc, your body will shut down and you will die -- loss of blood, trauma, shock, whatever you want to attribute it to.

Skill and technique should always give you an edge.  Then again so does agility, strength, and conditioning.  Sometimes, one gives more of an edge than the other -- depending upon how it is used.  Many trained fighters have fallen to inexperienced fighters because the inexperienced fighter overwhelmed the trained fighter, therefore nullifying his skills and techniques.  It happens in combat sports all the time -- the new guy comes out fists flying and doesn\'t stop until the far more experienced and trained MA is unconscious or has submitted.    It becomes a matter of numbers, the trained fighter with all his technique and skill just can\'t block or evade all the blows of the less experienced-more aggressive fighter.