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Messages - Mesmer

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1
General Discussion / Re: PS License discussion
« on: June 17, 2009, 12:34:21 am »
After seeing the topic titled PlaneShift Client (without some bugs and with movierecorder) moved and censored "for review due to possible licensing issues", I decided to research the topic of PS license and the claim of it being an "open source game" in detail.

As many of you know, I did not register here just to start some big argument but rather to make some good and thoughtful suggestions, many of which people liked and complimemted on. However, what I found out did not make PlaneShift and Atomic Blue Corporation look good at all. It looks like there are some major issues with PS license. For one thing, ABC calls PlaneShift an "open source game", which evidently isn't true, based on a lot of solid evidence provided in places like this and all over the internet. Why not be honest about it instead and call it a free game with a hybrid license? After all, only the engine is open source but that isn't the game.

Apparently, some people associated with ABC have also resorted to editing and later attempting to delete the Wikipedia's definition of what qualifies as an open source game, after deleting a forum post here that pointed it out. Its original definition being that of a game with an open source engine and open source content, such as OpenArena. PlaneShift's content isn't open source. The Crystal Space 3D engine the game uses has a license requirement to keep it open source, so, obviously, no credit goes to ABC for that part. Also, quite a few people from Blender communities don't think that PS deserves to be called an "open source game". This is, obviously, a major reason why many potential developers don't want to join the project. A big reason for a very slow development instead of it simply being a "hobby in spare time".

I've also found some other major issues with the game and the community treatment. Apparently, anyone questioning the license or the text parser quest system was usually ridiculed and insulted by both staff and "fanboys". Some developers and contributors have left because of that and because the team has refused to improve the quest system. For example, I found out that a poster named Xanacru, who has contributed some of the current PS icons (setup and updater), and also made a popular "Black UI" has left because the team did not want to try a better NPC dialog and quest system. Many other people have suggested a better system and in-game maps and mini-maps (including a little girl, who was insulted on the forum by some people with no brain), and of course now it's suddenly a good thing but no apology was offered by either the staff or the regulars who tried to ridicule and insult people for suggesting it in the past. It looks like those people were right, after all.

Additionally, the game has been advertised as a competitor to commercial MMORPGs in the past but when that part is taken into account for the game's development cycle and quality in reviews, "fanboys" try to insult the reviewers by saying it's a "non-commercial project" as an excuse. Then there is an issue with spoilers and spoiler policy, while the main site is linking to a PS community, which openly posts spoilers. Yet, the link isn't removed from the site. Yet another issue is the game asking for donations on the main site and to specify which feature you'd like to see the most, as if the money influences its priority. At the same time, ABC claims "0 budget" for the game's development. Then there is an "Alpha" vs "Beta" issue that the team can't make up their minds about.

One site (SA) shows "Talad" saying that "the project is the king!". This is completely wrong! The project is not the king, the customer or the playerbase is the king! Anything from 5-star restaurants to best game developers will tell you that. No customers/players, no game! And if you piss your playerbase off, the negative publicity will spread like a wildfire. No wonder there are so many bad reviews of the game on the net. You can't blame players for your failures. This is like blaming restaurant customers for its bad food when they complain.

Some of the staff often mentions "pessimism" when people speak of near-empty servers, lack of activity, and overalll slow game development but there is also such term as unwarranted optimism. This is where you cannot back up your words with actions in development of the game. In fact, when the "fanboys" are complacent, it's due to their inactions that the game is being damaged. Everything is A-OK, hunky-dory for them, so the game never improves.

Being a "free" game can only work as an excuse to a point. There is also another standard that people will hold you for, and that standard is MMORPG, something that you chose to make, and therefore have taken a certain responsibility that goes with it. You can't possibly hope to retain a playerbase with no active development, regular updates, and open communication with the community. All of this is expected in successful MMORPGs, free or not.

It seems that there's overall a big censorship going on at these forums, a group of complacent "regulars", and not enough respect given to the playerbase overall.

For all the reasons stated above, I don't want to be a part of this, so I'm leaving this game. And even if this post is censored here for some reason, you can't control it being posted on the more independent sites on the net.

2
Wish list / Nolthrir female model as a temporary Lemur female model
« on: June 16, 2009, 02:06:01 am »
Aside from an Ynnwn female, too many other races are already using an Ynnwn female model as a temporary choice, with an annoying sneeze animation. I'd like to suggest a Nolthrir female model for a Lemur female model for now.

3
General Discussion / Re: Dark Way and Black Flame
« on: June 15, 2009, 12:12:33 am »
It depends on a lore. On the other hand, usable magic shouldn't depend on the glyphs created by Talad. It's like saying that if Talad didn't create the glyphs, there would be no magic users in PlaneShift.

4
The Hydlaa Plaza / Re: Official YouTube PlaneShift Channel?
« on: June 12, 2009, 01:28:25 am »
No problem. When I was talking about dev podcasts, I meant the actual videos with some work in progress shown, not just audio as you had with devcasts. Preferably in HQ or HD. Whenever you're ready to announce your channel, it would be better to start a new topic in a sticky here as an official announcement rather than in a thread that posed a question. 8)

5
General Discussion / Re: Kada-El's Main Entrance
« on: June 12, 2009, 01:21:11 am »
@Rigwyn
1. That's what windows are for. Also, closed doors keep the warmth inside, with the fireplace and all. They also keep the bugs and dust outside. :)
2. Do you mean that the captain of the guards is charged with guarding a tavern? That's what bouncers are for.
3. It wouldn't be a pita or all in game doors would always be open. Anyway, the closed doors was an alternative, not the only suggestion.

Swinging out doesn't give more room inside, if the doors were opened to the extremes of the walls. Keeping the doors stuck outside and in the middle blocks what is apparently a wide entrance, not to mention the wind would likely slam the doors into each other producing an annoying noise each time. As for bashing the doors in, you could brace the doors from the inside (with chairs and tables) pretty quickly, so even if the lock is compromised, it won't be easy to do, unlike pulling on the doors. And if you're not around to brace the doors, then picking the lock, sawing through a bar, chopping the doors with an axe or just bashing it in won't stop someone determined from doing so. Besides, didn't you mention the guards outside?

EDIT: There is also something called a "lock-in" in some places that has a use for locked doors instead of relying on guards outside.

Quote
...a “lock-in” occurs when a violent, or potentially-violent patron is removed from the premises, and the doors are deadlocked to prevent the individual(s) from re-entering, and to prevent patrons inside from leaving for a short duration so as to prevent contact with aggressors (as a measure of duty of care). During the lock-in period, it is often a traditional courtesy of the venue to provide free drinks and snacks.

The game's setting and immersion don't change anything in this case. If they do, I'd like you to point out which part of the settings makes a difference here. In fact, because the game doesn't have the best collision detection, it is better that the entrance is wide without the doors stuck in the middle in a funny position. And this is based on playing the game, not real life.

@Thoss
Not at all. The doors can swing either way, depending on an establishment. If the doors swing outwards, the entrance is typically inside a niche or an arch of some sort, so that an open door doesn't block a walkway or a road outside the establishment. Otherwise, such doors usually stay closed, and return to a closed position after someone opens them to walk in. In case of fire, taverns aren't a bus or a train. Not to mention it would be easier for some perpetrators to trap the crowd inside by bracing the doors from the outside. There are also usually dedicated emergency exits, not to mention windows. Here are a few examples of taverns/pubs with the doors swinging inwards:

The Williams Arms, near Braunton, North Devon, England
The Eagle, City Road, Islington, London
The Eagle, Clerkenwell, London
etc.

There are also types of doors that can swing both, inwards and outwards.

Whatever way the doors swing, they should not be blocking the middle, if they were meant to be opened in a wide entrance. Even if the in-game verion was an entrance and an exit side by side, it still looks awkward.

6
General Discussion / Re: PlaneShift Music Suggestion
« on: June 12, 2009, 12:04:15 am »
Something else to be aware of is that sometimes an area calls for only an ambient track with very subtle music intruments or none at all. It can be made completely out of ambient sounds. PlaneShift does have an ambience volume slider but the ambience itself could be improved. Here are some links to video and audio relevant to music and sound in a game called "The Chronicles of Spellborn" as an example to PlaneShift musicians and audio engineers (all the stuff was posted publically either in their dev journals, presentations or forum stickies):

Link 1, Link 2, Link 3, Link 4.

7
General Discussion / Re: Dark Way and Black Flame
« on: June 11, 2009, 11:28:21 pm »
Based on the settings, it should probably be Azure Way that is given the bonus.

8
General Discussion / Kada-El's Main Entrance
« on: June 10, 2009, 10:06:11 pm »
Just wondering if Kada-El's main entrance was meant to have the doors stuck in the middle, opening outside, in such a funny way. If the tavern doors are always meant to be open, then wouldn't it be better to have a wide entrance with the doors opening inside the tavern but not stuck in the middle or with the doors completely closed to keep the noise level down. Entering the tavern could then be done through an interaction menu and "enter" icon, as with some other doors in the game. Unless, the doors are meant to be an entrance and an exit side by side.

9
General Discussion / Re: PlaneShift Music Suggestion
« on: June 10, 2009, 01:19:11 am »
@Illysia
Thanks. The suggestion was for whenever the "manpower" is planning to update the music. ;)

@zanzibar
As shown by the graph, there is a huge volume jump starting in column 15. The first time you hear the track, you'll want to turn up the volume because it plays really quiet, only for it to become too loud past the the two-something minute mark. Having a good audio system and/or headphones makes a difference too.

@Madoring
Music matters a lot. It can set the mood and add to the overall atmosphere. Any games lacking in audio department will get their overall scores lowered by reviewers, and a lot of players simply like music in games. Have you considered why you didn't have the music on for years? Maybe that's a hint right there. Updating music won't take away from "different implementations" because it would be taken care of by musicians, except a small code update for a looping secondary track.

In addition to my original suggestion:

When talking about factions and moods, I was, of course, referring to public areas accessible by everyone. Traveling around a city or exploring the open areas outside the cities. The traveling music doesn't quite go with the darker characters, for example. That's why I also mentioned the epic tracks that can, indeed, have a specific mood and be specific to a location, regardless of one's faction. Playing those tracks in a loop in regular public areas is what doesn't quite work for an overall atmosphere for some factions/characters.

Places only accessible by a certain faction, such as Black Flame temple, would obviously benefit from customized tracks, both epic and ambient alike. Death Realm should be pretty dark in music. And, of course, any areas meant to be dangerous, suspenseful etc can sound accordingly.

There are also exceptions like taverns, for example. It's ok to have that typical fantasy tavern music, even if it's cheery because that usually implies that some tavern musicians are playing it in the background, and that's what you would hear if you walked into a typical tavern. Unless, it's in Kadaikos.

Alternatively, think of it as primary and secondary tracks where a primary track plays once, while secondary plays in a loop. Maybe that's what Dana DiAnda was trying to do, as most of his tracks have parts one and two. It doesn't even always have to be a mystery ambient track as a secondary, as long as it's a kind of version that works well in a loop.

Think of your favorite TV shows. Typically, they'll have a main theme of some sort, usually sounding somewhat epic. As you watch the actual episodes, you can hear many different versions of the same theme playing slower or faster, in minor or major, depending on whatever is going on at the moment. A similar approach can be taken with various themes in a game.

10
General Discussion / PlaneShift Music Suggestion
« on: June 08, 2009, 10:40:04 pm »
This is a suggestion for PlaneShift music department. Currently, some music themes don't quite fit the mood or the area. Some tracks try to sound classic or epic, while others ambient. Also, the volume between the tracks doesn't always match up. Sometimes the volume within a track is not consistent either. Open the track called "inthedarktown.ogg" in an audio editor and see how much the volume changes at some point. The track plays really quiet for two-something minutes and then proceeds with a very loud volume in a marching style to the end.

Some themes are quite different in their mood (ie cheery or dark). It doesn't always work because you have different factions and types of player characters, so some themes can get grating in a loop, especially if they don't match your faction and type of player character. This isn't an opera. Not playing music in a loop takes away from the game's atmosphere.

Solution: A short unique epic piece that plays once when approaching/entering each major location (e.g. a capital city) that can be of a custom mood for that location, with a transition into a relatively long looping ambient track with a unique mystery theme (different for each location, obviously). A mystery theme works reasonably well for most factions and characters within the game. Ambient tracks should play seamlessly in a loop. The volume should be consistent.

An example of a mystery theme would be a track called "Caverns of Abarrach" by one of your past PlaneShift musicians Dana DiAnda. It can be downloaded on his homepage at Cannibal Island Studios. Although, the track should be longer and work in a seamless loop. A mystery theme would work great in the game. This is also the same (but somewhat differently arranged) theme that starts playing at the beginning of the "Magic Shop" theme in PlaneShift. The in-game version starts smoother, however, but it ends up not staying consistent and doesn't work well at all. That's because the "Magic Shop" theme was a collaborative effort between different PlaneShift artists, each with their own theme.

You can also find a "Road to Ojaveda" theme on the same site, which was never used in PlaneShift but looks like it was supposed to play when you're approaching Ojaveda, followed by "Streets of Ojaveda", which does play in the game.

An example of a track that plays once when you're approaching/entering a major location could be something like an Age of Conan - Track 17 (Khemi, capital of Stygia), if you get a chance to listen to it. Imagine that playing when approaching Ojaveda, for example. Once the track finishes, it should transition into a looping ambient theme.

11
The Hydlaa Plaza / Official YouTube PlaneShift Channel?
« on: June 07, 2009, 11:04:01 pm »
Why don't you have an official YT channel for PS? You could have anything from dev podcasts to new upcoming feature demonstrations all in one place.

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General Discussion / Suggestion: Release the Game in Expansions
« on: June 06, 2009, 10:12:02 pm »
Thanks for replying. I'll try to explain a little further to make sure everyone understands what I was suggesting.

Is PlaneShift treated as a fantasy setting or a story within a fantasy setting? An example of a major expansion could be PlaneShift: Kadaikos, for example.

Just the Yliakum itself, however, is supposed to have eight grades/levels overall, which is quite a big task to implement. Is there any particular reason why it needs to have many grades, other than to be "like Dante's Inferno"? Why not three levels instead of eight? Why not one level? You have to ask yourselves what other grades bring into the game? Do they enhance it at all? Are you planning a single or two capital cities per different race on each grade? That and some random villages maybe? Do you need eight grades for that? Do you need to implement twelve races at once?

Why not change the setting where only some races have entered Yliakum through portals, for example? The world can start with Lemurs and Kran plus a couple of races that were "lured" into the portals. Then the new races can be gradually introduced in the new expansions. New Yliakum grades can be created by deities through a progressive storyline. New deities can be implemented the same way. What good are five deities at once, if each is progressing slower than three? This would let you concentrate on fewer things at a time, and, therefore, put a better effort into each. This would get you a lot faster to 1.0.

This solves some major issues right away. Releasing a 1.0 sooner means no more character wipes. Every addition is simply an expansion of the game. If someone wants to try a new race or join a new faction, they'd have to roll a new character anyway but that is normal for MMORPGs and is not a big deal. Not having all 3D models for every race means that essential content is always missing. Compare this to new race or class introductions in commercial MMORPG expansions -- usually an exciting bonus. Point -- a better psychological effect. Suddenly, breaking the game into expansions makes all the sense in the world.

Trying to comfort players by advertising "friendships" despite character wipes doesn't work because they can get friendships in other MMORPGs, plus keep their characters. This isn't just about character wipes but about a better game management. Break it up into "bite-size" pieces and you can get there sooner, with better efficiency and less frustration for everyone.

I'm already on a game development team for a different project but I'm flattered that soneone is trying to recruit me. This is still a way to help and give feedback. Considering that I'm suggesting less, not more work, this is a good suggestion, which is for people already on the team, for those who chose to take that responsibility. Let's say I'm on the team, would I be able to change the project's management in the way that I suggested here as a first step? Even if I were to sign up for this team, I'd still look at the project's fundamentals, like management, first before applying my skill. Without a good project management, any skill would be a waste of time.

Thanks.

PS Illysia, are you the team's official recruiter or contributor/developer? 8)

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Development Team Blog / Re: Got Music Department?
« on: June 06, 2009, 08:50:44 pm »
@mordraugion
I was referring to sounds like "Rargh!", "Ugh" etc. Emote sounds/words could be implemented as well.

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General Discussion / Suggestion: Release the Game in Expansions
« on: June 05, 2009, 11:45:09 pm »
The game's lore contains many races, deities, areas and planes to explore. It seems the team is trying to implement all of it at once, which is too much for a non-commercial team to do. This has got to be frustrating for both, the players and the developers. Imagine popular commercial MMORPGs trying to release all of its expansions released over the years at once for the first time.

Currently, it looks like the team is trying to create a world, not a game. Take a look at MMORPGs based on popular fantasy settings and see what made it into the main release before the expansions. They didn't try to ram a world into the game. Instead, they picked a story within the world. And that's with commercial teams working on those games. Sure, part of it is for marketing reasons but it also takes a commercial team a while to release what you get in the initial release and each expansion. That means you can concentrate on one thing at a time and put better effort into it.

The original PlaneShift setting only had three "deities", for example. That would've been enough for the first release. That doesn't mean that the lore shouldn't have expanded but not everything has to be available right away, especially as a playable choice/path for a player. Some can be only referenced and/or reserved for NPCs until later expansions.

How do you release the game in expansions? Pick a story within the PlaneShift setting, instead of trying to create a world. Think up why some particular parties are invlovled in the initial story and go with it. Then gradually introduce the rest. Since the team's time and budget are limited, be clever about it. If Yliakum has several levels and it takes a while before even one is completed, incorporate it into the story. Think up a reason of why the races can't travel to other levels yet. Maybe each evel has lived in an isolation? Then once discovered, it can introduce new and interesting elements into the game. Also, mini-expansions can be called content patches.

Trying to do everything at once gives the game a very slow progression rate and no sense of accomplishment. Even though the game is free, good management and planning cannot be overlooked.

Thanks.

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Development Team Blog / Re: Got Music Department?
« on: June 05, 2009, 10:56:06 pm »
It would also be a good idea to record different vocal combat and crafting sounds diffrent races and genders make, such as with weapon/tool swings and spellcasting. A variety of such sounds mixed with silence on and off, so it doesn't get grating, would add to the game's atmosphere. A slider can be inlcuded for the frequency of such sounds.

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