Author Topic: Alloys Metallurgy and Smithing  (Read 1369 times)

SirTokesalot

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Alloys Metallurgy and Smithing
« on: September 08, 2004, 04:24:05 am »
Metallurgy, Blacksmithing and PS

 I\'m sorry if this is posted in the wrong place but i wasnt sure where to post it. I dont know what metals PS will use.
 What should determins the smithing of a good sword?
Lets the look at metal . Sorry if i get to tech lol .
What kind of metal to use ? iorn of courese.
But if pure iorn is used it will make a crappy sword ,rust,wont keep an edge, weak,
wont spring back will bend or break ect..
So we must use an alloy of some kind.
 An Alloy is a mixture of two or more metals like bronze which is made of copper and tin.
alloys are not compounds but mixtures of metals.
Alloys often have properties much different than their constituants.
Greater strength, hardness or different melting point.
Almost all metals and alloys have small amounts of \"trace elements\" that are impurities but sometimes contribute to the alloy\'s properties.

Some elements used to make differnt alloys with iorn are chromium,nickel,molybdenum,tunsten,manganese,carbon, and silicon.

some alloys of iron.

steel: carbon
stainless: chromium, Nickel
surgical stainless: chromium, molybdenum,and Nickel,
tool steal: tunsten or manganese.
cast iorn: carbon.
Silicon steel: silicon.
spiegeleisen: maganese, carbon, and silicon.
ect...

The addition of carbon to iron makes steel.
The amount of carbon determines the steel\'s hardenability.
The more carbon the harder the steel can be made by heat treatment.
Too much carbon makes steel into brittle cast iron.
 
What makes this metal hard? iron, steel, carbon, heat, tempering?

What makes metal hard is complicated, it has to do with the internal crystal structures.
These are effected by heat treating or working hammering ect..
 Most non-ferrous metals can only be hardened by \"work hardening\",
 hammering, rolling, bending. But they can be softened by \"annealing\" which is heating to a red heat and then cooling quickly (opposite to steel, see below).

The hardness of steel is determined by the carbon content.
 No carbon and it can\'t be hardened other than by work hardening.
 Increasing the carbon content increases the hardenability and the strength.
 This is then modified by the addition of alloying metals as well as the alloy metals having their own properties.

To harden most steel it is heated to a medium red or slightly above the point where it becomes non-magnetic.
 It is then quenched in water, oil or air depending on the type of steel.
The steel is now at its maximum hardness but is very brittle. To reduce the brittleness the metal is tempered by heating it to some where between 350?F and 1350?F.
 This reduced the hardness a little and the brittelness a lot.
 Most steels need to be tempered at about 450?F for maximum usable hardness but every steel is slightly different.

To soften steel so that it can be cold worked and machined is called annealing.
 To anneal steel is is heated to slightly above the hardening temperature and then cooled as slow as possible.
 Cooling is done in an insulating medium such as dry powdered lime sand or in vermiculite.
High carbon and many alloy steels can only be cooled slow enough in a temperatue controlled furnace since the cooling rate must be only 20 degrees F per hour for several hours.

Quenchanting in  Liquid or gas used to cool a metal in heat treating.
 Water, brine, oil and air are common quenchants.
 Liquid salts and metals are also used.


The set of processes, annealing, hardening and tempering are collectively known as \"heat treating\".

temper
The condition of the metal,is usually adjustable.
In metals it the hardness resulting from the manufacturing process,
heat treating, aging or working as in work hardening.
In ferrous alloys it is the hardness after heat treating.
 
 temper color
Colors produced by the oxidation of clean steel used to indicate temperatures during the tempering process.
Alloying ingredients change the rate of oxidation on alloy steels.
Temper colors are also used as a decorative finish or coloring of metal.
The colores of the temper each have diffent properties. exg Dark purple is good for screwdrivers because
it can take a twist stress good.
exg Pale yellow is good for a graver, its very hard can carve softer metals and stay sharp.
some tempers are used for springyness.

the colores are:
Pale yellow 2
Very pale yellow 1
Light yellow 1, 2, Straw 3
Pale straw-yellow 1, Straw 3
Straw-yellow 1, 2
Deep straw-yellow 1, 3
Dark yellow 1, Light orange 3
Yellow-brown 1, Orange 3
Brown-yellow 1, 3, Bronze 2
Spotted red-brown 1, Dark Brown 2  
Brown with purple spots 1, 2
Light purple 1, 2, Purple 3
Full purple 1, Purple 2  
Dark purple 1
Full blue 1, 3
Dark blue 1, Blue 2
Dark blue 2 5
Pale blue 3  
Light blue 2
Greenish blue 2, Grey 3  
Light blue 1  
Steel grey 2  
 
So some thought on all this for PS are:
To make a good sword u need to make a good alloy,
this could be quite an art to find the best
 mix for you alloy.
Say each metle has differnt properties,
and you must mix them for a good alloy in the right parts to get the best stats.
So each metle has \"stats\" that add up to the finished sword.
Something like \"metal A\" has stats like hardness +8, flexability -5, durability 3, weight 6
 metal \"B\" has hardness -1, flexability 8, durability 2 weight -7
 metal \"C\" has hardness 5, flexability -3, durability 8 weight 9
so i mix 1 part A , 3 parts B, and 2 parts C to make my alloy.
Dmg,speed,attack, rating and integrity could be determine partly from the above also the skill of the smith.
You would not know the stats of the metle so you would have to exparament.
 
 Unobtainium used to describe the perfect unobtainable metal.
 It is the metal of mythical swords that never dull and unbreakable weapons.
It is fictional a materials like Adamantium and Kryptonite.
                     
                    Quenchanting
 Another thing that could add to a swords powers would be Quenchanting,
this could be done in diffent things.
Like holy or blessed water = bonu agaist the undead.
Or in sand from a specile place.
Blood of a deanom or monster the highter the lev the better.
Blood of a player you pked would be cool.
Bone poweder,crystal poweder ect..
Oil, brines and more ect..
 There are stories of swords being Quenched in human blood,
by stabbing a live prisoner. I dont know if this is true or not,
but would be cool in a mmorpg (hint hint PS) lol..

 When making a blade you want one colore temper at the edge and
a differnt color in from the blade another else where.
 So in PS when making a sword and its in the forge it could swerls diffent
colores in diffent parts of the blade. When u think its good u \"pull it out\" of the forge.
The highter lev smith skilles the slower it swerles so u can have a better chance
of a perf blade. How would this work well each color would have differnt stats.
When you pulled it out and the colors stop swerling they are
added up each one blue % red % purple% ect..
Meaby u could kinda pull some of the color with your mouse the a better place
but this would have to be hard as the colors are changing and moving
on there own, abit reandom, skill, and luck.
And the location of the color on the blade could make a differnce.

 I think it would be cool if you could \"kill\" a monster and have a chance to
trap its soul in to some crystal or somethig this would have to be hard.
This monster crystal could be used in smithing a weapon thats
has \"intelligence of its own\" like limited spells that it could cast
or othere qualites of the monster it came from ( fire,poision, or lighting dmg meaby).

 The blacksmith should have their name on the sword when u look at its stats,
 ppl know who made it. This way good smithes would get know, like
I bought a Doompuppy man !!! its near perf !!
Some smithes would become legends.

ppl of PS please post if u get any ideas from reading this.

 I hope these Ideas and Info are of help the the Dev of PS
to make smithing an art and a fun job and not to easy.

 
Religion is the opiate of the masses.
                   Karl Marx

Kuiper7986

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« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2004, 05:43:51 am »
actually its a good idea. From the point you made we can take into more in the game\'s context. The point I am going to add is that one of the first skills as a miner is having the ability to check for metal purity.

I remember in spoonscape sometimes you get iron ore that isn\'t pure and it won\'t smelt. With this \"ore purity checking ability,\" you can check the ore for its purity. So maybe you mine a piece of iron and check the purity. So a 25% pure iron ore is worse than a 75% pure iron ore and with other metals also etc...
My name is NOT pronounced, \"Kway-per,\" it\'s pronounced \"Kye-per.\"

Zorium

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« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2004, 09:21:39 am »
SirTokesalot unforunately I have not had the time to read over your entire post (it is very long you know  :P), but from what I have read the idea is a good one (also you know steel is an alloy, finally someone realises this!).

Quote
I remember in spoonscape sometimes you get iron ore that isn\'t pure and it won\'t smelt. With this \"ore purity checking ability,\" you can check the ore for its purity. So maybe you mine a piece of iron and check the purity. So a 25% pure iron ore is worse than a 75% pure iron ore and with other metals also etc...


Wouldn\'t impure ore just make it harder to smelt and not make the smelting fail, although some very impure ore would require more effort than its worth.

-Zorium
I reserve the right to be wrong.

Myrtl

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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2004, 03:52:52 am »
I think this is a neat idea. Its good to see people that spend time on thier topics and really get to the point
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Samoth

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« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2004, 04:20:24 am »
Great post SirTokesalot - I like most of your ideas, except ...

Not sure about all the alloys - although some special things come to mind with \"surgical stainless\".

What are the numbers next to your colors:
Quote

the colores are:
Pale yellow 2
Very pale yellow 1


Isn\'t hardness and flexibility really close to just opposit descriptions of the same thing?   And there will probably not be much difference between the durability and weigh amonst the different steel alloys.

Using different alloy mixes for different types of swords makes more sense I think then your \"stats\" idea.  aka kantana needs steel allow with a very high flexability.

The idea of swurling colors is a game in a game sort of thing that I do not like.

Stydracos

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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2004, 10:42:31 am »
SirTokesalot very nice, I was hoping someone had made a post like this here. I like the idea of using real life principals to a certain point as well.

I would love to see the idea of discovery, where normal ores are used (counterparts of real materials named to suit planeshift) as well as \"magical\" ores. You have to discover metals and alloys, as well as the ores themselves. You have to smelt them correctly, perhaps correct heat and/or correct order of ores etc.

Where you can shape a sword to look less common (choice of hilts etc) and add your stamp to the blade to identify the smith ( possibily a unique mark or maybe just seen by the blade description, look at the item and appended to the bottom of the decription reads something like \"this sword bears the mark of Doompuppy\")

I\'d like to see the ability to melt down reshape metal items as well \'recycling\' a failed sword.

For magic I\'d love to see runic blades, \'glyphs\' carved into and mana used to enchant a blade the enchantment most likely would failing, however in some rare cases the sword is of quality and the glyphs correct to allow some swords to carry an advantage over their normal counterparts.

Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.
Sun Tzu On The Art Of War

Pegasus

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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2004, 11:03:32 am »
You know ATITD got a nice smithing system. You get a raw form of a tool (they havent got weapons) and then you pound on it with different hammers so that it gets a good shape. You always have an example to compare your raw form with and the better the 2 fit together the better the quality is. A better quality affects the lifetime of the tools etc.

The interessting idea behind it is that the end result wont be a result of the skills of your character but of your real life skills to see where to hit the raw form to make it perfect. I heard some people that used an hour to forge a perfect shovel. It is a bit time consuming though ... but hey why not :)

Patnik

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I love this!
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2004, 04:32:54 pm »
This is the new kind of things people would like to use in games, but it shouldnt be hard to learn if you have the certain skill for it of course.

the more the is to it the better it is, isnt?
-What if I press this then?
*Are you mad?!?
-No.
*Good, now you can press it.
-I dont want to anymore.
*Who are you again?
-Bye, gotta go now!
*But who will press the button?!
-Why dont you do it yourself?
*I cant.
-Are you mad?
*Yes, how come?