Author Topic: Hard Core Role Playing  (Read 1869 times)

paxx

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Hard Core Role Playing
« on: May 19, 2002, 11:12:50 am »
Ok, I admit I come from a different mind set when it comes to computer based RPGs. But being that my date for the evening is working a double shift, I?ll explore some aspects of what can make a hard core role playing MMORPG.

First I will point out that when playing paper and pencil games the players usually get much more open to talking when combat is especially harsh in the game. So here are some suggestions to make it fun but harsh. In all of these the monsters and NPCs should be treated the same way.

1.    Hit Points are not displayed in any fashion: (While I am not sure how HPs will be dealt with in the game I suspect there will be a way to raise them)

2. Instead when you are getting pummeled all your stats go down:  for physical attacks your physical stats go down more then mental but mental also go down and for magical (without physical manifestations as fireball would be physical) your mental stats go down more and your physical a bit less. The cool thing about this is in most cases the more you hit something the weaker it gets, but so do you.

3.    Your Intelligence is the multiplier of the cost of skill points: for example lets say you have 12 intelligence, when you reach 24 skill points bought the cost of your next batch of skill points doubled, at 48 it doubles again and so on and so on, if you have slow learning this doubling occurs at 12, 24, 36?(the benefits of slow learning needs to be something more permanent like you get double HP per point spent or something) and those with fast learning double at 36, 72, 108?(the detriment to this should be half hp or something similar) The entire reason for this is because very rarely are the best swords men complete morons, or any well accomplished hero type, but idiot can prevail through persistence. Also this would simulate the fact that someone who has learned many things doesn?t learn new things as easily and must apply themselves to learn something new about a craft they are already a master of, or learn a new trade after they have focused so much into other things.

4.   Magic, the ability to cast is should be costly: to have access to spells the initial cost should be something along all the points an average starting character can put into skills. This tied with 3 will keep high level warrior types from taking up magic when it only costs them a few points and they can gets those easy enough.

5. Large creatures should have area of effect attacks: when a Giant Clubs some tiny human he shouldn?t be trying for one, he would be swinging in a 120 degree arc trying to get all 20 of the little people in front of him. He should also be able to have a limited Range attack, say throwing rocks or dirt, a 40 pound dirt rock hurts when it hits, trust me. This range attack shouldn?t have an area of effect, but it should keep pesky casters from thinking they are immune from his attacks because of their range away from him.

6.    Predators and attackers that  are near towns are most likely strong or travel in packs: I have always found it foolish that the weak creatures are always near the cities and towns, it should be the strong ones that are (not the real strong ones but a pack of 20 dogs at least, if not the local farmer would have killed them all a long time ago)

7. Healer types should have a spell to see the health of their flock (party members): this goes with 2, As a healer type you are aware of the health status of the party, this should be a long lasting spell, and you should also be able to tell what other spells they are affected by (as they cannot) some maladies may not be in your area of expertise so you also will not see what it is, only a question mark showing that the player is affected by something. Another type of caster may know though.

8.    The best healing are the spells that require time: so no casting these while combat is going on.

9. Evening the playing field: Being that people with no enhanced eyesight will turn up their GAMA in dark places, the ability to see should be enforced by a smaller chance to hit by you if you have no light, better light better chance to hit?same for the monster though ?you have a torch the monster should be able to hit you quite well!!!?

10.   Health and magic regeneration: Health regeneration should occur after sitting for 10 seconds your health begins to regenerate, it will regenerate at number of points equal to your current endurance (read point 2) every 5 real time seconds (to give people a sense that time is moving this will be evenly distributed along the 5 seconds but the number will be something like that. Magic will regenerate at the same rate but at a number equal to your current willpower, only catch is you must first be at 100% HP so if you are hurt you are not getting any magic but when you do heal up you will get magic fast.

11.  based partly on 10 I feel Charisma should be the prime stat for healers, as this is the mark of force of presence or persona, Charisma should also be the primary mental equivalent of agility while will power is the Mental hit points like endurance is the physical hit points.

12.  Conning (figuring the combat value of a creature): creatures and PCs should have a con variable, the higher this is the more the creature can appear dangerous or easy, a good perception skill and knowledge of that type of creature will lessen this variable, (PCs with disguise or something similar can?t think of a good word can make themselves appear more deadly or less, dependant on what they want at the moment, for example a monk type will want to appear average or weak in a city but dangerous to predatory animals when in the wilderness ) the point of this is you really never know how is stronger then who or what is tougher then what, but you can give it a good guess by it?s walk and talk.

13.  Conning expanded: Creatures should have markers colors (and math sings for the color blind) we can say Black - - - -? is easy killing?, Grey - - -? is a bit harder but shouldn?t be a problem?, Green  - -  ?you can take it but it will hurt?, Blue ? ?you should be able to take it?, yellow (no mark) ?toss up you or it?, Orange + ?better bring a friend?, Red + + ?better bring a few friends?, purple * ?you better have a party of adventures?, Crimson * * ?you better have a few parties?, pink * * * ?bring an army?.


(of course pink and black should be interchanged I was attempting to be funny) but this tied with 12 you have to have the most perceptive and knowledgeable doing the selection of creatures to kill

Characters shouldn?t be able to see if you are their equivalent or not, but they should have a demonstration of power that makes it easier to see if they are of your combat ability or higher/lower (this should be some type of sword dance for fighters and displacement of magic energy for casters, combo types will have a combo of the two) but you should not know their exact powers unless you ask and they show you, or tell you and then it is up to the player, however a person with the disguise skill should be able to act more or less tough then they are if they wish, someone with impersonate should be able to pretend they are of another type then they are.

With these things and a few other I am thinking of but don?t have the energy to write about at the moment should make the world a pretty uncertain place and thus force more role-playing.
 Specially when the wolves are at the town gates and most people need a group to get past them, people will be shouting in the towns for forming hunting bands, ?Troll hunting band forming at west gate? this should make it a cool environment to game in. I just hope that there is no severe location lag but that can be worked out by having more locations.

A little story:

Just imagine you go out with a healer type a little higher on the food chain then you are to take out a Giant Toad that has been eating all the local Beavers and the hunters are pissed, but after it ate Hunter Kolan none of the hunters are going near the river, well you get there and your healer companion and you see the Toad, he tells you to wait here, he?ll lure it to you.

A few seconds go by and sure enough here comes the healer with the Toad after him, you ready your sword in anticipation and just as it is about to pass you, you swing down with all your might, though it seems to have affected the creature it?s skin was very flexible and it jumps turning to face you and opening its huge maw.

Its tongue lashes out at you, and you are surprised at it?s speed and it?s effect , it almost knocked you to the ground, you charge in and see your healer companion coating a blade with something out of the corner of your eye, you hit it again and you know you broke a bone or two in it?s body?it hits you with it?s tongue again this time you feel queasy and yell at the healer to help you, it?s poisoned you, you can?t focus your attacks are missing it or bouncing off its flesh, you hear your healer friend stabbing at it and wonder why he isn?t healing you has his god forsaken you or something, you feel the tongue hit you again and blackness falls on you, all you can think about is what god was it you where cursing a week ago??

Later you come to, some bandages are about you and you smell chicken cooking on a fire, you look at your bandages and know that they have some curing salves on them, you are hurt but alive.

You ask your companion why he hasn?t healed you?? he response with a look of shock, ?what are you talking about that anti venom salve cost me 8 silver an ounce, I put all 12 on you just to make sure you made it through. You tell him ? no, why didn?t you use the powers granted by your god to heal me?  ?oh? he snickers a bit ?well, you see I knew you wouldn?t go if I told you that I needed someone to take a few hits from it so that my poison could take effect, but I knew you would come with me if I told you I was a holy man?
You can?t believe your ears and you look for your sword, grabbing it your companion tells you ? I wouldn?t do that if I was you, the poison is still in your system and right now you are no match for me, and even if you do kill me, I?ll likely hit you once with my blade and the poison on it will surely kill you. We?ll both be dead, plus in the morning we can go back to town and get the reward for this thing, I?ll buy you a beer and well think back on this fondly?

While he gave his little speech you had the feeling he was right, the look in his eyes seemed that of a hard cold killer, but his voice was merry, and it was as if he where saying, I could have killed you in your sleep, don?t be foolish now. You also couldn?t help it that you found it funny how he snookered you into believing he was a holy man, he doesn?t look it now, but during the day you where sure of it.
         

Well that is my version of what a guy with impersonate  and he didn?t appear to be of different power level but of different specialization?

All in all I think these things would really add to Role-playing and be fun, but down time is a very debatable thing for me, what do you guys think??
« Last Edit: May 19, 2002, 12:12:54 pm by paxx »
-Paxx

Golbez

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« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2002, 09:46:19 pm »
This is the most interesting post I\'ve read since I\'m here,  and I agree with everything paxx said, but I do have a few doubts and I\'d like to point out a few things as well.

About point #1 and 2: (hints are not displayed in any fashion/stats go down when pummeled) During a fight, you may not want to open your character sheet to see how much your stats have gone down, so there should be a visual aid to help us notice how much damage the character has taken (ripped clothes, few scractches, little details like that) and also the character should \"act\" different. If he is bad hurt, he may limp, or grabs his arm while walking, etc.

I agree with points 3,4, and 5.  They are well explained, and I don\'t think I can add much.

About point #6 (predators and attackers, I know this one may cause trouble) that idea you mentioned is a good one to enhance role-playing,  since you will need a party or some friends to take care of each other and wipe the enemy without much problem (specially in the early levels)

Also, in point 9 (night vision), those who are running around with a torch should be easily spotted by the enemies, they will have a harder time parrying and attacking, but perhaps as they gain experience in this kind of dark environment, they will get used to fighting in the dark (still, they will suffer the consequences of not having night-vision, but in a more subtle way)

Point 12 (conning) your charisma should influence, I think, in the way people see you (stronger or weaker) A character with high charisma can pretend better and therefore he/she may appear as someone way stronger or weaker than he/she really is.  Also, I like (in the story) the ability to pretend to be from another alignement or to have different skills, this one could be very useful if some kind of spionage between guilds can happen.

Well, thats all, I think. In regards to the rest of the points, I agree with them completely, specially about 13 (conning expanded).

 I see that you are a WTB member now, paxx, I hope you can make it into the dev team, you definitely have a lot of great ideas.  Good luck!

- Golbez

Galdorlin

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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2002, 07:40:11 am »
Great ideas! I\'m glad to see that you are a WTB member.
About your first point-   I think that HPs should be displayed. I know that in real life I don\'t have a graph that shows me how my health is... but on the other hand, if someone is beating the hell out of me the pain would give me a pretty good idea of how badly I am hurt.

paxx

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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2002, 08:47:56 am »
Though, I agree that I would like to know how hurt I am, I don?t think a person should know the # of hit points they have at all. This is a pretty much a revolutionary idea since in almost every RPG you know that you have X number but in a computer game you don?t need to know, you could have a life bar or life stone that diminishes in brightness as you take damage, but lets say you have something like the Berserk ability or something, your damage meter stays full until you get back to normal and then if you are dead?well you die, this would add more of a character emersion into the game, I know I can take more damage then you but I don?t know exactly how much more or is it because of this armor I?m wearing?

Over all diminished Stats as combat goes along would make the game something impressive, instead of everyone killing one monster at a time, you have to chose how you deal out your damage, concentrated fire is not the only way as it is where the creature is alive or it is dead/near dead you may want to do a bit of damage to all of them and other times kill them one at a time.

Also thanks for the kind words?
-Paxx

Hak`M

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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2002, 11:47:31 am »
About the beserker i think an limited AI should take over and beat the hell out of your opponents or he gets himself (you) killed... so you can flee or something. It is verry realistic because that is  happen when you beserk: you are out of control  ;)
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David_HD

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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2002, 12:23:05 pm »
Good ideas all around!

A few questions, though (and some comments)...

Firstly, I like Golbez\'s limping (and the like) idea for reduced physical stats, but how would your character visably act different with greatly reduced mental capacity? Or low charisma?

Second, I\'d personally prefer a status bar for what % of my health is left. Better than a stone, imho... And I wouldn\'t want to JUST read a character... (hehe, pleasant memories of DOOM...)

I take it someone would collapse if any of their stats were to run out... How, then, would we show that one stat is running exceptionally low, but another is still high? I mean, if you were a gruff fighter and got knocked down a few notches by a magic attack, your charisma may well be quite low, but your strength still be high, right? Then it may be resonable to take on another fighter, but you really wouldn\'t want to deal with another mage. It should be somewhat easy to draw this info from the HUD...  Maybe a separate guage for each stat?

Perhaps it should be somewhat akin to the Amber RPG... Where we create our characters initially, but then turn them over to the GM (the game, in this case), and just give requests for what we\'d like upped if there are points to spare. Priorities and such. And then we never again know exactly what our scores are. (That is, if I recall correctly. I\'ve never actually played it, just read through the handbook.)

Oh, and \"Disguise\" should probably be called \"Bluff\". (Yes, that\'s ripping off D&D, but can you think of a better name?)

Stats are already large enough numbers during character creation that reducing them rather than having an actual number of HP seems doable...

paxx

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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2002, 06:57:06 am »
I?m redefining this idea quite a bit, and though some of it seems fun, implementation would be a pain?however I am currently writing a lengthy health process using multiple versions, so we can pick the best of my way out there thoughts?just let me say that for now I am going with a health bar?the crystal is to dependant on brightness and a person with their GAMA at a certain level may not see the slight differences.

Also in all reality health will probably be displayed on one bar, so all stats will be displayed evenly, I am not a fan of this but I?m thinking implementation not what would be cool, however I will see if I can come up with a good system so that all stats are vulnerable, and important. And have different effects when they are lost. I have always felt that charisma should govern self confidence?this would make it a very important stat for a fighter.

I?m sure I?ll write more on this later but not till I finish my huge right up, on possible ways to implement some of the ideas that have been accepted.
-Paxx

David_HD

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« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2002, 08:14:27 am »
I\'ve been thinking about this, and I think I like the idea of a separate guage for each stat...

ParaSite

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« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2002, 07:42:47 am »
All these are certainly good ideas, but i disagree with one of them:

Quote
13. Conning expanded: Creatures should have markers colors (and math sings for the color blind) we can say Black - - - -? is easy killing?, Grey - - -? is a bit harder but shouldn?t be a problem?, Green - - ?you can take it but it will hurt?, Blue ? ?you should be able to take it?, yellow (no mark) ?toss up you or it?, Orange + ?better bring a friend?, Red + + ?better bring a few friends?, purple * ?you better have a party of adventures?, Crimson * * ?you better have a few parties?, pink * * * ?bring an army?.


I don\'t like this one. I think when you add this everyone will just look at the markers instead of the monsters themselves. Not fair for the monsters! I mean, we could have a really mean looking goblin, that really is killable in 1 hack. Or on the other hand, a pathetic looking NPC that really is a strong wizard. Markers would spoil these effects.

Of course we could only add markers to normal monsters, and not to bosses and special monsters, but that way you would know right away when you face one: \"Hey, this monster has no marker, so it should be special!\" Not good either.

Maybe we could be making it a skill (to see markers). Nature knowledge or something. Anyways, the other thingies mentioned here are good and interesting to read.  8)
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David_HD

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« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2002, 09:37:32 am »
Yeah, perhaps different skills to be able to judge creatures of different types. For example, Nature knowledge certainly wouldn\'t let you know about supernatural beings, demons or undead, say. There could be another skill for those... And so on...