Path of the Roleplayer.

[Karyuu]

So to roleplay you suddenly need to have a ready-made character, or else?

[Pestilence]

So to roleplay you suddenly need to have a ready-made character, or else?

Not really sure where the "or else?" is coming from.

How is it less ready-made then the farmboy? You just start at a different point becuase for someone who has been roleplaying for years starting over with farmboy number 152 isn't good roleplaying anymore. Using the same starting point again and again and again is hardly realistic.

Also many roleplayers want to keep their characters true to the stats they have. They however don't want to level them after every wipe. Having a roleplaying character that gives them the stats they roleplay gives them the ability to stay true to the stats while roleplaying. This in my eyes would be a lot better then recommending people to just ignore the fact they really can't do anything looking at the stats. That really disconnects the roleplaying from the leveling instead of linking them.

[Karyuu]

Using the wipe is hardly a good argument. Wipes aren't going to keep happening forever. The "or else" refers to Moon hinting that since he feels this game may not be for him, he'll hitchhike out sometime.

Again and again all I see is "I am limited now so implement this." People who play 4+ characters aren't the default, and they're not the majority who define how the game should be handled. Most often a player comes and bonds with 1-2 characters and sees him or her evolve within the game itself. Everyone is a beginner when they start and are meant to begin their character journey then, not before. No one has to be a "farmboy." There are plenty of other possibilities and explanations, and good roleplayers have no excuse not finding one.

In-game activities are limited. We have reached this conclusion over and over. But this will not remain, and you might be delightfully surprised in the near future and onwards.

The only true limit is the lack of the ability to come in with many stats and skills raised (although the char creation can already give you more than enough to begin), and I feel that this is fair. My personal opinion is that your character journey should begin and not just "continue" inside the game when you start playing.

[Under the moon]

I completely agree with that, Pestilence. This way does not break any roleplay rules, or take away from roleplaying. It adds a new, and lacking, dimension.

My characters are all 'ready made'. I know who they are, and what they will do. Interacting with other people changes them, not learning new stats. But I would also like to play by those stats, which have to be ignored for the most part. Ask yourself this: Do YOU play by your exact stats? Does your character think back on every single kill, dug ore, or new sword needed to get the stats you do use to play? If the answer to any of the above is 'no' the game has failed you.

Or else? Bluntly, yes. Hinting? no. In time, being forced to play around the game, rather than with it will burn me out. My characters will all go home or die. Will that matter at all to the game? No. Not one bit. But then, is it the game itself that matters, or the people playing it?

I am done defending this. If it is against what the game stands for, then I will leave eventually, as will all the other players like me. Not a threat, just the way it is.

[Pestilence]

In-game activities are limited. We have reached this conclusion over and over.

Well to be honost if noone is saying otherwise it's hardly a conclusion. And obviously using that is quite a discusion killer. Saying things like "you can't wish for that becuase you don't know what it will look like in the end" is also a discusionkiller.

I mean I have seen threads were you say you want people to wish for things more thought over and to think of it for how it looks like in the end

I feel Moon has done this. You might not agree with his view. You might not agree with my view, but to start using discusionkillers like that isn't fair to the effort Moon put in thinking it out.

Moon and I think this would add something to the game. Not just becuase of the wipes we are having right now, but becuase it would add something specificly targeting the people who roleplay here.

Personally I feel this is a good idea becuase it would add realism and becuase it would better link the stats with what is being roleplayed. It would also add several ways of how to experience PS. I don't see why PS would have to force all people in the same path.

Would I use it myself? Not very likely exept perhaps to remodel Meriner after a wipe seeing I'm  not really playing him anymore but he is close to my heart still. But it's not about if I want it for myself. It's about if I think others should be able to do this if they enjoy the game this way and about if it would add to the game or not.

[Hadfael]

What would it add to PS and what would it remove.

It would add the possibility for everyone to come with a full story that he had made up without even knowing if he could have actualy played it. We would have to meet people pretending on their first day that they fought a war we were in and where no such general nor private was seen.
So if you want a char with a long past without playing it, you will be limited to play hermits who trained in a locked cave. Otherwise each of your invented background needs a reason why your "old" char was never seen.
It would allow powelevelers to have raised stats without even leveling.
It would remove the possibility to raise a character when all higher ranks of the society are taken by newly spawned characters.

Raising a character, facing challenges will be meaningless when everyone will be able to pretend he faced and overcomed them.

Don't simply look at stats like the reward for powerleveler. Stats are a way for a roleplayer to extend over time the capabilities of his character, opening new doors and new discoveries.
To invent a life is fine, the goal is to play it.

[Janner]

 Now what on earth would a PL want to do that ?

It would allow powelevelers to have raised stats without even leveling.

Kind of defeats the point of power levelling dont you think ?

[Pestilence]

We would have to meet people pretending on their first day that they fought a war we were in and where no such general nor private was seen..

The character we play are already fullgrown normally. People who already have a history. Following your logic we would have to start as babies and roleplay growing up. Why don't we do this? Becuase that isn't interesting and would highly frustrate most people.

In my first post in this thread I also said the roleplaying character in my opinon should be something that needs unlocking somehow. By impressing a GM in one of the event or by doing a series of quests that ensure knowledge of the setting. This would make it very unlikely for people who know nothing of settings to use it.

Also I don't see why powerlevelers would use it. If you are a powerleveler what fun is it to start a character you can't level?

So if you want a char with a long past without playing it, you will be limited to play hermits who trained in a locked cave. Otherwise each of your invented background needs a reason why your "old" char was never seen.

What? becuase someone has a few ranks higher the people are suddenly going to roleplay worse? I guess you haven't been ingame much becuase I can't even count the number of newbies who were playing an avatar of some unknown god without being leveled at all. Having someone think up a histroy for a new character (they can't even create before they have already played PS) I think can't get worse then that and will have those people act more like the stats they have.

To invent a life is fine, the goal is to play it.

The goal of roleplaying is to play a role. Why force people to start in the same one everytime?

[Under the moon]

If all players start out as the young person new to the world, then I ask you this: Where are the adults? Where is the middle-aged banker down on his luck? Where is the retired soldier that has seen too much fighting in her life, and is trying to settle down? Where is the very old dwarf who has suffered all of his life so that others did not have to? Where is the grandmother who likes to sit in a park and tell stories to the bored?

Limiting to the leveling path does not add to roleplaying, it kills these characters. When you can tell me where they all went, without 'pretending' then, sir, I will bow down at your feet and agree with you.

"they are NPCs" is not a suitable answer.

Where are they?

[Hadfael]

all  chars are starting young, it doesn't mean they don't grow up, on the contrary. Play your char long enough and you won't ask where elders are since you'll play one of them.
You keep saying that stats are only for PLs and you ask for raised ones. Where did the money of the middle-aged baker go if he never even try to gather his first tria?
And for the aging of chars there are already threads.

To those who don't see why PLs would starts with full stats, it's that you never wondered why PLs were leveling using cheats and any mean in order not to RP but to have higher stats than others. If they wan't to show off, give them the oportunity to start at the top so they don't have to care for lvling. But isn't it what you are asking for?

Growing a character does not limit it, it enhanches the his history by confronting his dreams to the reality. A grown char is not limited to what he pretends to be but to what he managed to achieve, depending on the victories and defeats that forged his personality.

A char pretending he achieved anything without even trying for real is a void dreamer. In the end you don't play the role of the char, you play the role of an actor who dreamed his past. So, you can decide to call it acting and not roleplaying. You can use a dictionary to oppose me that acting is playing a role. But it's not playing the game.

Allow me to quote a song.

...
From the point of ignition
To the final drive
The point of the journey is not to arrive

anything can happen

Basic temperamental filters on our eyes
Alter our perceptions
Lenses polarize

Alternating currents force a show of hands
Rational responses force a change of plans

anything can happen
...

It's not about RPing, it's about life. If you want to call RPing living a virtual life in a virtual world you have to accept the changes that can occur in you plans when confronted to the reality of your interactions with the world and enjoy the journey with all the people traveling at your side.

[Pestilence]

Did you read our first posts Hadfael? Becuase this is the second post you are pointing at something we are not saying.

The roleplay character in my opinion needs to be unlocked. So new players wouldn't be able to start one.

We do not say stats mean only something to powerlevelers. Quite the contrary we are saying stats SHOULD mean something to roleplayers. This proposal is to give the roleplayers a way to play an ordinarybaker or an ordinary soldier who indeed have a past, but everyone playing the game already has one and uses their past to motivate their actions already

The roleplaying character wouldn't be a jumpingboard for levelers becuase after creation there would not be any leveling

We are not proposing to give someone full stats. We are proposing to give someone more stats then one gets from creation, but if you look at the examples already given the highest we proposed was more like rank 30 out of 80. After wich again it's locked and not possible to train so you can't play a godtype person

You also keep saying we want this becuase we want to arive somewhere. This might be true for some people who would use it but thats not the reason moon or I would use it nor the majority who would use it in my opinion. The reason is to have a different role to play.

Again why is it somehow roleplaying to start at one point and pretending if you start at another? Why is this one point that is as cliche as possible the point you have to start appointed by god himself? Why isn't it playing the game if the game is made that you can start at different point roleplaying wise aswell?

And last I have seen people advice roleplayers to just IGNORE the stats. How is that better then adding a feature like this? How many godRPs will we get if roleplayers take this advice instead?

It's not about RPing

How flawed can you get in your logic?

[Hadfael]

It's not about RPing

How flawed can you get in your logic?

The quote...taken from a text that was talking about life was not writen about RPing.
RP=virtual life
life=a journey
RP=virtual journey
journey=anything can happen
anything can != what you expect did
RP != what you expect did happen in your virtual journey

fixed stas=fixed capabilities
fixed stats=static role != evolution

[Under the moon]

Those are your opinions, not fact. There is absolutely nothing wrong with playing a character with fixed 'capabilities'.

And no, you can not play the role of an old character when you start out as young. Are the players you ‘grew up with’ just supposed to pretend you are old now, when they are still RPing that they are young? That is idiotic. Time flows that same for all characters, whether they start the game as 20 years olds, or 100 year olds. You can not change that just because you ‘leveled’. Your answer is invalid. Please try again. Where are they?

As to the ‘journey’, I agree with Pestilence on this. The journey is NOT at an end just because you are older. Role playing is playing a role, no matter what it is. I have RPed a book ingame already. That is a role, therefore it is roleplaying. Roleplaying is not Evolution. Roleplaying is not leveling. Those can BE a form of roleplaying, but not the ONLY definition. Widen your view.