We're all too defensive (me too).

[Induane]

I noticed today that Karyuu added to the Welcome to the Complaint Department thread.  This part I found particularly worthy:

Over the course of several threads now we have seen both players and developers become defensive to an unhealthy degree, as tensions mount.

She also noted that the direction of this section of the forums should move to constructive criticism, which seems logical enough. 

So my complaint is that people in general are far too defensive.  I notice that with myself as well, in fact, I tend to get defensive about not being too defensive in a weird way.  In one way or another I think all of us are guilty of this, being to worried about being right, too worried about getting our points across, and too defensive when our ideas our challenged.

I say lets all chill out and enjoy ourselves a bit more.  There are always things to complain about, and thats fine, but I think we should all make an effort to relax, look around objectively, and realize we're all different, but we're here together.  A group of individuals with different values can still speak with one voice when the issues are important enough, and I think most everyone here has the capacity to look at things a bit differently if they want to.

Peace, love, whatever... I probably sound like an old hippie.  Either way I don't think there is much harm in enjoying each others company a little bit more, and worrying about ourselves a little less.  We are all self indulgent to a degree, myself maybe even worse than most, but we have the ability to step out of that box, so lets do it.

[bilbous]

One problem I think is common to worldwide message boards even when limited to one language is that different words have different sub-text depending on locale. We saw this with the war over that word means insect among other less desirable things. I would hope that we all could assume the best of people and that they must not know the worst we can think that word (whichever it happened to be) means. This will require an effort, of course, but you could always PM the other and ask if they know how their words might be understood. Certainly some will know full well, others might appreciate being enlightened so that they do not make the same mistake again.

[eldoth_terevan]

One small thing that can be considered when people are considering posting on this forum is that sarcasm is an inappropriate emotion to try and convey through text. Text does not convey tone. Tone cannot be implied correctly, or intuited correctly from plain text. Text statements should be crafted to convey exactly what you mean without assuming that another can "hear" what you are saying. It also follows that "hearing" tone where there is none is the fault of the listener, not the author.

People need to chill out and and quit thinking that somehow the postings on this board deserve to be regarded as "personal attacks" -- nobody is getting "attacked." If one does not know how to tell the difference between an attack and a web forum post, then one should take a serious break, or come down to my favorite bar on 34th Street in Chicago and I am sure we can give one an example of a real "personal attack." Ce n'est pas une attaque personnelle.

[Zan]

Yeeeeaaah maaaan ... we should make love, not war! Peeace!

Ok seriously now, by the way that's a little inside joke between Induane and me so don't let me catch anyone getting all defensive over it

No, really, you do have a good point Ind. People tend to be egocentrical in general and are very easily pushed into a defense mode when discussing. Something that adds to this is the fact that agreements are rarely stated on mediums like this. Nobody really bothers to make a post that just says "I agree." but that doesn't mean there weren't at least half a dozen people who felt that way. The only posts that are made are usually made in disagreement or sometimes to add something.

I would love to see more of the latter and less of the "This is wrong!" or "That will never work!". Personally I do my best to at least give reasons and always try to give alternatives when I think something won't work. I also do my best not to fall into a repetetive argument/insult slinging contest. I make my point and leave it at that. Well ok I don't always succeed there but I'm trying that more and more lately.

We have a lot of 'strong minds' gathered here on the forum and while those people can definitely think up great things, they can also dig into any argument with the need to win it. They'll counter any possible remark and defend their ideas to the very end. Of course what happens if you put two or more of those people together ... endless arguing

I know I've been guilty of it myself but lately I've been letting go of more and more discussions when I realize they're just going over the same thing again and again, when nobody wants to yield. Or when I am arguing with people whom I have to work with due to them being in the same guild or anything .. then I've been doing my best to unite both of our ideas, both our viewpoints so that we'll deal with a problem as a varied team, instead of having two opposing ideas.

[LARAGORN]

I agree, this is both a poster and reader issue. If you search for a 'How to post on a public forum' guide, the most common suggestion is to read the text multiple times. For the poster, they are to read it in different emotional states to see if the meaning changes to much. The reader is to do the same, keeping in mind that unless the poster states their mood when writing the text, they can never be sure and to not assume the worst.

We all have moments when we are not at our best, but a little self control on both sides can have a much better experience all around.

[Induane]

Any why does everyone here say "I don't want to sound like a hippy, but..." whenever they're about to advocate being nice?  Give me a break.

* Induane gives

Zanzibar a break!

Well... because sometimes bring up a stereotype as a joke seems humorous at the time.  Also, when you start wording things the way I was about to I often get the "hey hippie" replies.  Figured I might as well ward it off

If by "defensive" you mean "aggressive", then yes.  I see nothing wrong with people defending themselves from untrue statements and personal attacks.

No I don't see anything wrong with defending yourself from untrue statements and personal attacks either, I more was referring to the way we respond, and our tendencies to be defensive first and objective later if at all.  Not all personal attacks are full of useless crap, sometimes the criticism is good, even when presented in a way that feels like an attack.  I think many of your posts come off as an attack Zanzibar, simply because of the style, word choice, and overall way you get your points across.  People then react defensively without even actually considering what you say, except to try to negate or disprove what you said.  The defensive attitude obscures us from sometimes seeing that, even though we may not like what was said, that there can be some truth in it that is worth looking at.  I'm getting a little bit of deja-voo now ... Have I said this before? Probably so. 

In any case defending yourself is fine, but sometimes you just have to leave the conversations after you have said your piece because at a certain point it is pointless to continue, it will just raise emotions, and ultimately serve no positive purpose.

I don't believe Induane was thinking of unfortunate uses of words with multiple meanings.

Nope, I was not, but bilbous did bring up another good point and its worth considering sometimes, particularly in a diverse board like this.

Yeeeeaaah maaaan ... we should make love, not war! Peeace!

Yeaaaaaaaah Duuuude!!! Peeeace ouut bro!

No, really, you do have a good point Ind. People tend to be egocentrical in general and are very easily pushed into a defense mode when discussing. Something that adds to this is the fact that agreements are rarely stated on mediums like this. Nobody really bothers to make a post that just says "I agree." but that doesn't mean there weren't at least half a dozen people who felt that way. The only posts that are made are usually made in disagreement or sometimes to add something.

A very good point.  I try to take lack of posting as "agreement" but sometimes it feels like disinterest.  The rest of the time it often feels like everyone disagrees but you are correct I think, that fewer people post just to agree than to disagree.  This definitely adds fuel to the file.

I know I've been guilty of it myself but lately I've been letting go of more and more discussions when I realize they're just going over the same thing again and again, when nobody wants to yield.

We're all guilty of it to a certain extent, myself maybe more than others.  Eventually I think we mature and get better about it, but thats always there.  I wonder if its human nature to a certain extent, though thats another beast in and of itself. 

@LARAORN Definitely.  I hereby post to agree to your agreeing with me!  PEACE LOVE ... AND OTHER GOOD STUFF!