Suing

[Irick]

well, i was posting something about guards a few minutes ago and i got me thinking about court systems in game. mainly: we should have one! so i got to thinking, what is the most basic way to introduce a court system but adding a non-violent way to settle problems. it should be simple to do, have an NPC around that you can talk to that you can do one of 3 things with, sue, toggle jury duty status, or review the public record of cases. in suing you would give the person you wish to sue's name, and the reason for suing them summed up in a sentence. now, i think that we should allow instant start, though ICly unrealistic, who wants to wait a full day before a trial, and risk the person you are suing not showing up? both the jury and the defendant should then get a tell or the like saying that they are being summoned to a trial [give them 30 minuets to get to a designated point, or transport them to it withe the option of "skipping their court date"] then during the trial, people should be muted in main [/telling still allowed] unless called on as a witness or otherwise. the defendant and the prosecutor both talk to the jury like in a real case, each having an allotted amount of time to get their facts and points across, then the jury votes, guilty, not guilty, or frivolous. the vote count should reflect the punishment, being tria, or in repeat cases, banning from hydlaa

keep in mind it is only a half formed idea and i wrote it at 4 am my time. ^^

[Waylander]

keep in mind it is only a half formed idea and i wrote it at 4 am my time. ^^

Get sleep, Irick

Aside from that, I think the idea is a good one, though I imagine the devs may have a justice system thought out, this would be a pretty nice addition.  I do think you should flesh it out some more.  How is the jury chosen and whatnot.

[Draklar]

Problem of people logging out to avoid trial vs people logging out because they don't have time to waste on boring trial vs people who just crash.
There's no way of telling abuse from honest problems. It poses more annoyance than entertaining value.

I'd much rather like to see something akin to the medieval ordeals of fire, water and combat.
Easier to implement and less likely to be abused.

[Waylander]

As an actual system I can see it being abused, Draklar, I agree with you there.  I had assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that it was meant solely for RP purposes as would most judicial systems not run by GMs.

As for the ordeals, I'd like to see something akin to them but... definelty not them.  The trial by combat was, unless I'm mistaken, reserved for Nobility whereas those of fire and water would be ... interesting to implement.  Keep in mind of course, while England was doing this the germanic people actually had a decent law system, so courtrooms weren't completely unheard of in the middle ages.

I'd still like to see Irick flesh it out before people put it down, completely.

[Irick]

i see your points, and i do agree. there will always be that person who thinks they can cheat the system by faking a crash, or even a good rper whose character would not want to show up. the only real way i can see this being resolved is either one hell of a sophisticated AI script, or a set of logs concerning when people get cases "postponed" due to crashes. i think the simplest way to do this is to have a script that checks the record with an output something along the lines of "the bailiff says: the defendant has missed his past two court dates, would the jury please now take a vote as to proceed with the trial without his testimony?" as for the jurors, hopefully there will be enough people that if a few decide to skip out on their appointment that others may be chosen to take their place. and yes, this is meant as a RP aid. actual disciplinary actions against a player, say, for harassment, need to be handled by a gm, not an in game system.

[Draklar]

while England was doing this the germanic people actually had a decent law system

- All the way until William the Conqueror, England was downright Germanic.
- Ordeal of combat was specifically Germanic custom. Only later was it introduced in other places (under Germanic influence).

Jury was introduced in England in 13th century, under papal influence. That's about the timely equivalent of Planeshift's setting. But historical accuracy has very little to say here.
1) If we want to be historically correct, the punishment wouldn't be paying tria, but cutting off hands or tongues. Would players appreciate that?
2) It's not hard to find jury trials in TV and rich popular references. Will those then be attractive additions for a medieval setting? Will they let players cut free from the modern culture?

The trial by combat was, unless I'm mistaken, reserved for Nobility

It wasn't reserved for anyone, although it would be ordeal of choice for the rich and nobility. One reason for this was that you could simply hire combatant specially trained for such ordeals to fight instead of you. Don't remember the English name for those combatants though.

As to ordeal of fire and water, I would Yliakumize it. Cast a spell that causes minor radiation, akin to that of the Azure Sun. If the radiation harms the accused, they're guilty. If i doesn't, apparently they didn't do anything. Of course, it doesn't have to be always right ;)

[Nikodemus]

Of course, it doesn't have to be always right

You mean random, yes? ;P

[Irick]

As to ordeal of fire and water, I would Yliakumize it. Cast a spell that causes minor radiation, akin to that of the Azure Sun. If the radiation harms the accused, they're guilty. If i doesn't, apparently they didn't do anything. Of course, it doesn't have to be always right

pff, i have a better idea, lets just throw the offenders into giant ponds of molten lead. it won't actually help anything, but hey, molten lead!

[Waylander]

- All the way until William the Conqueror, England was downright Germanic.

I'm curious as to what you mean by downright Germanic.  And Guillaume, that fruitcake , came around 1066, not much else had happened in England during the middle ages before him besides a whole lot of civil war and the Saxons pouring men onto their coast.  Which is barbaric but, not exactly Germanic.  Simple fact being that before William we just don't know enough about England to pretend to compare it to other Germanic tribes.

- Ordeal of combat was specifically Germanic custom. Only later was it introduced in other places (under Germanic influence).

England started practising it in the early stages of the Middle ages (post-Dark Ages).  Only years after William came.  Though I imagine that has to do with the Germanic influence on the Normans more than anything.


Come to think of it.  I didn't want this to become a historical debate   I was more pointing out that courts weren't completely absent in the middle ages.

As to ordeal of fire and water, I would Yliakumize it. Cast a spell that causes minor radiation, akin to that of the Azure Sun. If the radiation harms the accused, they're guilty. If i doesn't, apparently they didn't do anything. Of course, it doesn't have to be always right

A Kran can do no wrong
I imagine the trial could simply be kill the accused, if they make it out of the Death Realm, they are innocent, if not, well...they're already being punished.

[Draklar]

I'm curious as to what you mean by downright Germanic.

What can it mean? :P
English were Germanic peoples.

Simple fact being that before William we just don't know enough about England to pretend to compare it to other Germanic tribes.

Lots is known, actually. Especially thanks to Old English literature and archeological findings.
And heck, I scored a max grade at a presentation on Old English culture when my sources were all about Germanic people xD

[Waylander]

Not much is known actualy, before William, Draklar.

Good old Guillaume came about half a decade after the dark ages started to part.  From about then all the way back to the fall of Rome is a nice big blurr of "huh?" mixed with an amazing amount of "maybe".

We know enough about the tangible, but not so much society.

Most anybody in the Dark Ages could be called Germanic in Europe.  I'm curious as to what exactly you meant.

Germanic people pretty much means they spoke a Germanic language and followed customs.  Though English is Germanic the customs that the English followed at the time were much different that those continental Germanic people.

I actually meant to put England as an exception from other Germanic people (The first trial by combat in England happened when it was under Anglo-Norman rule).  But, I got carried away with the love I have for disagreeing with you, Draklar

[Irick]

enough with the history! present information to support the system you think is best fit for the PS world, or help me make a new one. here is a thought, each group might have their own local system for local offensives and a bigger system for major things. the local system could be a player run jury type while the bigger system would be run by GMs. the local system would be faster but the dispensary actions would be limited. the bigger system would require a waiting period where all parties would be contacted with a time when the trial would take place. however the actions the system could take would be more serious. [could even be life time confinement or death] of corse we are assuming that the players will have the guff to show up, if they don't we can always sic the guards on them [if they log off every time or something the GMs could take OOC action as you could consider it cheating]

[Duraza]

Having a court system would be intresting but it makes the game more complicated. Besides who said that the goverment will give citizens a fair trial? From what I know there are laws and if you break those laws their are consequences. I doubt the law really cares whether you did it or not. As long as your accused you will probably be punished.

Also I doubt the goverment would be intrested in player quarels enough to make a court for them. They would probably be to busy with their own problems. I do like the idea of making a quart of citizens (like what was done to Daehaz). However that can easily be done without the use of game mechanics. That can all be done rp and if its a court of us citizens then I think thats the best way. Of course we have to remember that the citizens can't really sentence anyone to death but we can always lock people up  (please don't lock me up though  )