Making Craftmanship and the economy workable

[Baron Samedi]

   I have some thoughts regarding mining and getting raw materials, as well as potential routes for craftsmanship...

     First, it seems to me that there is no difference between the level of mining skill and success. I have read some other posts with ideas on how to change this, from finding more ores or more valuable ores. I disagree. Mining should always be tough work. I think that increasing mining skill could easily be rewarded by awarding more experience points whenever an ore is found, depending on the level of the miner. For example, at level 1, you may get 10 XP from finding an ore, at level 2, 20 XP...at level 5 100 XP, and so on. This would make a miner career more rewarding, and bring it more into line with just wanton slaughter for XP's.

   Second, NPC merchants could be set up in each city, a sort of marketplace. These NPC's wouldn't buy or sell ores...they would simply facilitate contracts, perhaps for a fee. For example, a smith could place a "contract" with a merchant in Hydlaa for 30 iron ore, and offer 20 tria per ore. He would pay the merchant 600 tria up front for the order, plus fees. A miner could approach any iron merchant in any city, and click on an icon to see what contracts are available to fill. Naturally, he will choose to fill the highest paying contracts. If he has only 10 ore, he can still select the contract for 30 and get his money. That contract would then show 10/30. The miner would be paid his 200 tria and go back to mining...

   When the contract is filled, the player would receive a "tell" that his order is ready, an he simply can go to the nearest iron merchant to pick it up...sort of a Western Union system.

   In this way, someone who wanted to concentrate on smithing wouldn't be required to mine his own ore if he was willing to pay a premium, and NPC's need not buy ores from players, the market would provide need and value. The more urgently a player wishes to get his goods, the more he pays, and the faster his order naturally gets filled.

    The same can be done with all the ores. You could then have a distinct class of miners and skilled craftsmen.

   Also, for skills such as cooking, it could be a prerequisite for making potions, or alchemy. These potions must be stored in special containers that only skilled glassblowers can make, unless the mage wants to learn these skills himself. The quality of the potions could be restricted by the quality of his cooking skill and the container the potion is put into.

   The same could be done with magical rings. For example, a mage wishes to make a magical ring. He needs a high quality ring to do it, so he approaches a jeweler to make a contract with that jeweler for a very nice ring. The jeweler agrees to the contract, and in turn contracts a smith for gold ingots. He also needs diamonds, so he places a contract with a diamond merchant, which the miners will fill just as the iron ore example above. In addition, the smith, needing gold ore, may decide to contract some gold ore rather than dig it himself.

    That is a whole lot of economic activity from what is essentially one mage wanting a ring, and there is plenty of work for other PC's to do. That one ring may involve 5 or 6 players to create, even if they don't know it.

[bilbous]

One little quibble here otherwise sounds similar to something I suggested previously. If the only benefit for a miner in training is more experience why would he ever spend the money to buy the next level? The experience would not likely be more than any other skill could generate so it wouldn't be a case of how fighting is now, for example. Hopefully someday all experience gain will be balanced.

[Baron Samedi]

One little quibble here otherwise sounds similar to something I suggested previously. If the only benefit for a miner in training is more experience why would he ever spend the money to buy the next level? The experience would not likely be more than any other skill could generate so it wouldn't be a case of how fighting is now, for example. Hopefully someday all experience gain will be balanced.

   I was thinking that it is not a good idea to have miners with a higher level be able to get any more ore than anyone else....it just seems like either it would be too easy for a miner to get rich, or to offset that impossibly difficult for a beginner.

   A miner could, of course, spend his PP's on anything he likes.

   I think the ease of killing for a living is too unbalanced in this game. I can kill a rogue that can't hurt me and get 1200 XP. Mining, on the other hand, is tedious and tiring, and only gets me 25 XP. I have to find 48 ores to equal one miserable rogue killing. The gap needs to be narrowed by moving a little bit in each direction. So I guess we agree in principle. We need to encourage more crafts and roleplaying, and make the hack and slash approach less easy and rewarding.

[TomT]

   Also, for skills such as cooking, it could be a prerequisite for making potions, or alchemy. These potions must be stored in special containers that only skilled glassblowers can make, unless the mage wants to learn these skills himself. The quality of the potions could be restricted by the quality of his cooking skill and the container the potion is put into.

   The same could be done with magical rings. For example, a mage wishes to make a magical ring. He needs a high quality ring to do it, so he approaches a jeweler to make a contract with that jeweler for a very nice ring. The jeweler agrees to the contract, and in turn contracts a smith for gold ingots. He also needs diamonds, so he places a contract with a diamond merchant, which the miners will fill just as the iron ore example above. In addition, the smith, needing gold ore, may decide to contract some gold ore rather than dig it himself.

Rather then "code" your contract idea; we are trying to encourage players to do something similar.  We are hoping as crafting grows, the interaction of the crafts will promote cooperation.  Specifically, with one crafts demands for raw materials being meet by another crafts supply of final items.

So rather then require cooking skills for alchemy (in which some players might want to max out in all possible skills) we are trying to provide some common items.  For example, the armor crafting will require some leather items.  Average quality versions can be purchased from NPCs, but we hope that high quality versions will be available from some experienced leatherworkers.  That way some players can explore specific crafts and always have a demand for their efforts.

We hope this will result in players offering contracts for small numbers of specific high quality items in their particular expertise.  Different parts of towns will be dedicated to some of the crafts.  Players would travel to those sections looking for specific items.  A verbal deal can then be made to supply such products by a specific time.  I would think this would be better then the existing auction method.

As more of the community gets involved with defining craft specifics, we hope to promote more and more of this type of economy.

[Zetsumei]

I think the ease of killing for a living is too unbalanced in this game. I can kill a rogue that can't hurt me and get 1200 XP. Mining, on the other hand, is tedious and tiring, and only gets me 25 XP. I have to find 48 ores to equal one miserable rogue killing.

That's one of the reasons I enjoy mining; I can earn tria without significantly increasing my PP, to the point where eventually things will even out; hell, I could eventually reach a stage where I have more tria than PP.

[Ravenguard]

Although I think the contract idea is interesting, I don't necessarily agree that it is necessary to generate economic interaction with people.

Simply by advertising in the 'Auction' section (though I think it should be changed to Trade), and by helping out new people, I've got 4+ people who bring me ores; either gold for money, or iron/coal for steel.

Then, as far as my production of steel goes (I'm no blacksmith, only a metallurgist), I have one regular customer, and several others of whom I am pretty certain they'll buy.

Now, this wasn't that easy of connections to make, and many a time before this I spent lots of effort in the mines, or holding onto many stocks I couldn't get to move.  But interacting with people and actively trying to make connections does work.

With mining, I'd like the level of mining to increase your chance of finding materials; if you know what you're doing, you're more likely to know some tips and tricks.

0 Base
1-5 Low increase
6-15 Low-Medium increase
16-25 Medium increase
26-35 Medium-High increase
36-45 High Increase... maybe a +10% bonus to each?  Or maybe a +5, +10, +15, etc.?

I also like the suggestions from another player concerning the dangers that could come from mining, and how a miner's level can determine if you can evade that mishap.  Also, if more mining locations are added, the more rewarding mining areas would require a certain level in order to even survive in there, due to the dangers.

[Baron Samedi]

Simply by advertising in the 'Auction' section (though I think it should be changed to Trade), and by helping out new people, I've got 4+ people who bring me ores; either gold for money, or iron/coal for steel.

    Yes, but long term, when there are hundreds or even thousands of players,the auction system would be a disaster...a constantly scrolling field of messages, going too fast to read.

   I was looking at a system that could be implemented now and handle growth without future changes.

[lond]

A nice benefit of the contract system is that, if anyone can browse open contracts, it gives an idea of value and demand.  If there lots of orders for a specific good then more people will learn to produce that good.  And the contract system should support both buying and selling.  You might put in a contract to buy some armore, or you might put in a contract to sell some swords.  The in game support of holding goods or money allows players to trade even if they have trouble getting online at the same time.

There is no particular need to have shipping included in the service.  A single central npc could service all contracts.  Perhaps shipping could be had for an additional fee, based on weight, size and/or value.  Of course, with shipping, there could be bandits.  Or even caravans which could actually be robbed by players.  Maybe they offer insurance as well, or hire players to guard the caravans.

As for fees for the service, I hope it would be a fairly small fixed fee if any at all.  Or perhaps the burden of fee could be on only the buyer or seller, so that poor players can still take advantage of the system.  And if an offer is rescinded, there should be no fee.

I agree that the auction tab will not scale well.  Not that the auction tab should go away, just that it should have a little help.  The two systems operate on a different time scale.  I think the slower time scale of the contract system supports a more stable economy.