Poll

Do you think we should wipe the characters?

Yes!
No.

Author Topic: Wipe  (Read 18432 times)

Waylander

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1562
  • Constantly correct since 1988
    • View Profile
Re: Wipe
« Reply #135 on: February 09, 2008, 02:20:59 pm »
Just because I love stirring the pot.

All the arguments made by people who are against the wipe that I've read fail to address the point that wipes are necessary to move the game forward.

To state my point of view in the most simple terms: If you love the game, you won't mind the wipe.
<Jeraphon>oh khado
<Jeraphon>you so khrazy

Xil|sleeps: I love cadoras

Waylander, A.K.A: Cadoras, Khado, Nurahk, Armeen, Nostra ... God.

Josel Caldesen

  • Wayfarer
  • *
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Wipe
« Reply #136 on: February 09, 2008, 02:25:50 pm »
I'll vote no.
Just because my char took a long time to train, and that if it is wiped i'll never try to train it up again. That's an egotistic point of view that i think i share with some other players, but i really care for my char.
On the other hand, I understand a wipe would enhance RP. Training without any further goal than "being strong" is somehow pointless and not funny in my opinion. But try roleplaying someone who has a lot of experience in fighting with a char that would lose against a rat. For me a wipe would mean more than 2 years of playing erased in a second. Even if i love RPing (i really do) i don't think this is a good idea.

I agree with this post, although my reason is not egocentric as Josel was only created a month ago, and so many are stronger than I, but I like it that way..

The fact is for me, that a char's stats has an effect on the way I treat them in RP... If somebody comes up to me waving their sword in my face in the tavern, I will kindly ask them to put it away.. If they refuse, I will evaluate their strength, and act accordingly. If I didn't care about somebody's stats, I might as well be IRC roleplaying or something.

The only exception this case is if say, somebody had bodyguards/friends/guild members with them, in which case I will try to remember them, and maybe get revenge later on (exactly how real life works.)

Just because I love stirring the pot.

All the arguments made by people who are against the wipe that I've read fail to address the point that wipes are necessary to move the game forward.

To state my point of view in the most simple terms: If you love the game, you won't mind the wipe.

Well.. hopefully the devs will weigh up the pros of the new improvements that will be implemented after a wipe, and the cons of the history/characters/etc being destroyed and make a good valuable decision.

neko kyouran

  • Guest
Re: Wipe
« Reply #137 on: February 09, 2008, 02:42:36 pm »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8__EwAT8VM

 :offtopic:               :o               :ban:

Baron Samedi

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Wipe
« Reply #138 on: February 09, 2008, 02:46:19 pm »
    I am in favor of a wipe of characters. Although I like my character and put a lot of hours into him, I think it is necessary not only for a more thorough playtesting....i.e. more players testing all aspects from the lower on up, but also to prevent the inevitable result of super characters constantly dominating the game, as in crafting and being able to amass huge wealth and slay big creatures.

   A wipe is beneficial to the game development and fairness to all players, and will encourage more players to play. It would also help crafters to make a few dollars as they develop their abilities.

   I would much rather have a game in which the balance of players is reset at each level, so we don't have level 300 crafters running around with a million tria in the game, and allow for more testing of quests.

    However, there definitely needs to be more adventuring opportunities introduced, so there is not a problem with finding creatures that can be hunted without waiting in line. There is too much of that already. A wipe would have to take into account the number of players that will be adventuring and provide plenty of options without a lot of running around searching for creatures that are free for hunting.

Quin

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
Re: Wipe
« Reply #139 on: February 09, 2008, 06:09:12 pm »
I know I already voted "yes", but I'd like to take one more step to the left if I may.

I think Vornne makes a very good point

Why are there so many people who play this game as if it is almost finished, and like most MMORPGs, where one of the main points of it is to gain levels? Because that is the way it is advertised... look at planeshift.it, from reading it I would think new people get the impression that this is a mostly finished game - I don't think many people read the forums, even if they did read the wipe warning, most players probably don't really believe it would happen, they have never actually experienced one, and don't want to think it could happen.

I think that even though it is often said that our game server really is the test server and that part of our job as players is to be testers, very few believe it.  The Devs in their quest to keep us happy seem to be a little wary in pulling the trigger. In my opinion there should have already been 1 or 2 full wipes since the last one, and many more smaller ones in between.  I know that new content is coming as fast as it can and that bugs are being worked on as fast as they can (I think the devs are doing a great job with the few people they have), but I feel that some of the balancing issues are being nudged when they need to be kicked.  PS is a work in progress, make a big change, tell everyone about it, then sit back and watch it for two months, if it didn't work out exactly like you thought it would (which it inevitably won't) come out and say "Hey, we tried to fix the economy and we've learned some interesting things and it got better but we are still unbalanced so everyone will lose half their tria" or "Hey, we tried to fix the leveling system and we've learned some interesting things, this time it is a little worse than before so everyone will have all of their levels cut in half".  I think a good number of substantial wipes a year (because of the devs trying things out) would not only keep it fresh in the player's minds that "yes, we are a work in progress and things will change" but also give the Devs the opportunity to flex their muscles and try new things, pushing PS to be a more advanced game.
Quinidain Sherkhan : Enkidukai knife fighter and Starlight Hunter , living life one rat hide at a time

lusiocoram

  • Wayfarer
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Wipe
« Reply #140 on: February 09, 2008, 07:50:06 pm »
Many argue that since the game is in development it should be expected that peoples accounts will be wiped from time to time due to bad data and such. But would such situations not occur in a final verion aswell? I have several programs for my computer that checks the harddrive for errors, cleans the registration database (yes, I use windows  ;)) and maintains other things. These programs are for a finished system not something being developed. I am not putting down the developers for this, cuz you do an amazing job, but part of that is also to secure a good playing experience. Who would care to spend hours everyday for months, even years, if that can be thrown away at any moment. I would be completely okay with an accout wipe when we reach version 1.xx to make 'a clean slate'. However, until then we need high-ranking testers too. There may be people who exploit bugs and such, but that is a good thing too cuz THEY ARE FINDING THOSE BUGS FOR US. Resetting accounts constantly (just exaggerating) will reduce testing of the game. Don't let the actions of a few who don't wanna play the game in its right spirit ruin it for the many who are playing it the way it should (what ever way that is ;)). Let us get the bugs out of the system first, lets get to a version 1.xx and then start anew.

And as far as getting 'bad apples' and such out of the game - manually correcting all the accounts is a silly idea. Instead, make programs to do that for you. You know what has to be changed. If its a bugged quest you can search for that in the accouts and fix it with a program. Something wrong with an item, have a program search for it and replace it with one that works. Version 1.xx does not mean that the game will not evolve anymore - new quests, items and skills and more will still be added, right? new ideas will be tried out, right? and sometimes errors in the development might happen, right? Fixing this is harder - i know, but IMHO it would make it a better game.

As far as roleplaying - that is based on the rules of the game. To be a crafter, miner or duellant or something else. If you don't care about this then you might aswell just roleplay in a chatroom. Training and using the various things in the game help develop your character and if you want to try something else out, welll there are room for 4 characters in each accout. Your not limited to just one thing. Wanting to wipe everything cuz you wanna start over makes no sense - just make a new char instead.

phew - well this was a huge load. I hope I didn't bore anyone ;)

Quin

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
Re: Wipe
« Reply #141 on: February 09, 2008, 08:31:19 pm »
but part of that is also to secure a good playing experience. Who would care to spend hours everyday for months, even years, if that can be thrown away at any moment. I would be completely okay with an accout wipe when we reach version 1.xx to make 'a clean slate'. However, until then we need high-ranking testers too. There may be people who exploit bugs and such, but that is a good thing too cuz THEY ARE FINDING THOSE BUGS FOR US. Resetting accounts constantly (just exaggerating) will reduce testing of the game. Don't let the actions of a few who don't wanna play the game in its right spirit ruin it for the many who are playing it the way it should (what ever way that is ;)). Let us get the bugs out of the system first, lets get to a version 1.xx and then start anew.

I agree with so much of what you are saying.  But I also think that after a substantial change is made (and I think at this stage of game development, there should be many), if and when it doesn't work out, the players need to realize that they may have gotten so much of their tria or levels or shiny new things because of a failed experiment.  Therefore a large portion of that will be taken back.  The highest ranking characters will still be the highest ranking, everyone will just have been set back 10 or 20 levels in sword or Red Way, or lose 50 points in each stat over 100, or lost their weapon of "just look at it and you will die".  My feeling is that if this happened every few months after some game/rules change, the game would be better for it and the players wouldn't be too inconvenienced.  But I also realize that in this stage of development, things may become very out of balance, and the players(testers) need to accept that a tool at the devs disposal (and one they are willing to use) is the full wipe.
Quinidain Sherkhan : Enkidukai knife fighter and Starlight Hunter , living life one rat hide at a time

Daevaorn

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 49
    • View Profile
Re: Wipe
« Reply #142 on: February 09, 2008, 11:44:54 pm »
Hello, all.

Do we need a wipe? (Note: I'm not talking about 1.0)

My main character has maxed stats but is still far from being anywhere near the max of any skill, except maybe for mining. I deem that a pretty good position to argue for or against a wipe since I'm equally far from the beginning character and the one that is far developed.

In many discussions with fellow players and some GMs on the topic I have collected a list of arguments on the matter and I admit I have a pretty clear-cut opinion on the subject. I haven't read all of the thread and I'm sure I will be repeating the one or other argument brought forward by others. Nevertheless I don't want to serve the missing bits but paint a complete image as it presents itsself to my personal view:

You don't need skills and stats to roleplay. It is your personality that makes the game fun.
- True. But why are there skills and stats at all? Why are there skills and stats in the "purest" style of roleplaying, the pen&paper? Why did the developers incorporate those in the game? Right, it is not personality that makes roleplaying fun, it is -unique- personality. And part of a unique character is, what the character can do and what it cannot. That's skill and stats, it is an essential part in the representation of a character, that greatly increases realism. How am I supposed to roleplay a battle mage if everybody else is equally good or bad at magic as I am?

Through a wipe we will lose some players but we will gain many more.
- A wipe will make many old players leave (yes, that is going to include me), since they are not willing to start anew, to repeat the process of bringing their character to the point where they want to see it, where they feel it belongs to. People play the game to experience something new, not to repeat the same events over and over, and developing a character is a part of that. New players will come and join as the game grows more popular, whether there's a wipe or not. It might even lose popularity through the wipe because those who leave will probably never again recommend the game to friends.

After a wipe you have the unique chance to develop a totally new character and thus experience something completely new.
- Thanks to the good planning and the flexibility of the game we are able to have several characters. we can always create a new character, with a new race and develop a new personality with new skills. We don't need a wipe for that. We can let people who are content with their characters keep them. Those who are not can start anew with their own, personal little wipe. And for those who were forced to start with a new char - don't you think that "everybody else should have to pay" is a bit of a poor perspective, seen from an interpersonal point of view?

It is unfair for the beginner and people who want to have a new character to be confronted with so many powerful characters.
- Is it? I can't see why. Meeting powerful characters, interacting with them, is as great an occasion for roleplay as is meeting a "newbie" for the old and experienced character. It's difference and only difference - diversity - that makes the game fun and creates dynamic relations and developments between characters. The game's economy even depends heavily on a broad mixture of varyingly developed characters. It is much more realistic for a weapons smith to buy his steel from a professional miner and not mine themselves since all have roughly the same ability on that sector.

The wipe is necessary to bring the game forward.
- I haven't read one argument that really explains and proves that highly general (and - excuse my french: lame) statement. I doubt that bugs will be found by 200 low ranking players after a wipe that are not discovered by 50 beginners without a wipe. And even if: Those bugs that may be found faster after a wipe will be countervailed by the ones that need higher ranking chars to find them. Having a wipe or not will not make any difference to the testing of the game, neither positive nor negative.

We will only lose the power-levelers after a wipe the true roleplayers will stay.
- People who have maxed their character or are contented with their characters as it is, have only one option if they want to continue playing the game. They can roleplay. Even the most convinced power-leveler will either leave the game at that point or become a valuable part of the role-playing, whom we might lose if we wipe the character. The ones who don't roleplay will leave anyway, even without a wipe.

Too many characters are too strong. We need to balance this.
- In a persistent world there is progress. Unless you want the wipe to happen on a regular basis,  which opposes the promise of persistency, that many players (yes I know we are testers) who join count on, it does not make sense at all to wipe because of such an argument. Sooner or later the world will come to that point again, where there are as many powerful characters in the world as there are now. A wipe does NOT solve this problem at all, it must be solved within the game dynamics. Leveling can be made harder, skills can be reduced proportionally, there can be harder mobs, new skills introduced, ...

People have only been able to become that strong by abusing bugs. That needs to be corrected.
- It is not as if a bug caused half the players to jump to Crystal Way 150 in a wink of an eye, is it? All of the characters have undergone a process of development, some slower and some faster, possibly quickened through the use of bugs, admitted. But when we ask ourselves and answer honestly, does it really matter for me if someone else used a bug to level somewhat faster? He could aswell have joined the game half a year earlier and played the legal way and would be at the same point relative to others. It's only the most human trait of envy that tempts us to have this "problem" corrected.

 :oops: Thanks for reading this novel to whoever has had the patience to do so. One final word: When there were wipe-rumours and debates approximately a year ago, the rumours alone extinguished my whole guild. It was a pretty active and well-working group of many people dedicated to role-playing. And within a month it was all gone, people were frustrated by the discussion and the possibility that their characters could be lost. All that remained from many of my in-game friends was the guild's MOTD that I read for quite a few month of virtually guildless playing: "All characters will be deleted soon." - I think this whole business can do a lot of damage to the game (read testing) community.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 11:58:00 pm by Daevaorn »

Under the moon

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2335
  • Writer extraordinaire.
    • View Profile
Re: Wipe
« Reply #143 on: February 10, 2008, 12:53:52 am »
I urge anyone who does not understand a thing about coding to refrain using the word 'lame' when talking about the reasons wipes are needed on occasion. You know nothing of how data is used and interacts with the server.

I did not read any of your other points. Why? They do not matter. the only thing that truly calls for a wipe is to clean the system out. Little bit of old random glitched data could very well be causing lag ON THE SERVER. The server does not suffer from graphics issues. Those same old bits of hidden corrupt data could be causing certain crashes ON THE SERVER.

It is the server that stores the data that would be wiped. It is the server that uses this data to send commands out to your clients. Your clients send messages back to tell the server what it is doing, which makes new data that interacts with the olds data that could be corrupt.

I am sorry to say that most of the people who have said no to wipe simply because of how long they have spent on their characters do not have a clue about the code reasons.

Let me put it in very simple layman's terms for you. Someone (the Devs) gives you a wall to test some new paint on. You spend a week getting the paint perfect, and make a wonderful mosaic. Friends come by to help, and everyone has a great time. You just love the colors of the paint you picked, and would never want to change it. The problem is that in a few more weeks, the paint is starting to bubble and crack. It is getting pretty ugly in a few places, and starting to peel into the good spots. It seems the wall was not perfectly clean or the primer was incompatible with the paint you used. More cracks could start forming anywhere. Now, what do you do?

Mordraugion

  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 816
  • Ex Dev and GM
    • View Profile
Re: Wipe
« Reply #144 on: February 10, 2008, 01:02:57 am »
we seem to be getting rehashes of the same arguments so I think its time to lock
No longer a member of the PlanShift Development Team
Hokinon or Hoki on IRC

PS is not a democracy, nor will it ever be -- Karyuu 2006
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=21049.msg230947#msg230947