questing absolutely corrupting minority

[nightstone000]

so since the previous few days ive rejoined the PS community from a 4.5 year hiatus (forgot old email account used anyway)
and the torrent of crashes, timeouts, and impervious mobs to quench my looting
lack of anything to do besides mine platinum and sell it premium style

I decided to accomplish the newbie goals of learning the land and starting all the quests

back when the jumping bugs could land characters on any area they can scale up, and the endless crystals randomly spawned to collect.  lacking all stats, skills, inventory, weapons, and mobs was great back then.. just roaming hydlaa endlessly collecting crystals and finding the best way to jump to uber roof

well questing became the primary goal
it is extremely rewarding if you follow it closely and keep notes
and i hope my notes dont suddenly disappear as i would give up any attempt to remember 25+ quest notes



who of us feels that questing is a valid solution to the complaint of economy vs training vs mob killing?
its gotten me plenty of cash, some useless items, and enough gold to continue easily

however running a "simple errand" typically ends up in running from BD to Ojeva and back again for meagre chump change... ie: time well spent

so not to have any posts about which quests who gives what here, just a reminder there are plenty of alternatives to the basics of the skill system...
im sure most of us know the quests or have completed a few anyways


but still to the lack of better defined typical responses given to NPCs it would be a good idea to have some clue also that npc is done talking to you, and to continue with hints given on last parts of quest taken

after spamming 60 responses to an npc to find out how to continue its extremely irritating when the most basic is not the best result


"this quest is impervious to completing"

[Tuxide]

This is an issue with the natural language processing done by the NPCs.  If you think one should be responding to a particular phrase in a quest and isn't, then bring it up with the settings team.  Sorry, I am too tired to give you a detailed process right now.

Oh, and welcome back, I have also been around since Molecular Blue.

[Jeraphon]

You have six posts, so here's what I'd like you to do.

1) Get ten posts. Try going to the roleplay boards and crank out four there. (You might want to consider using capital letters and punctuation marks. I hear they're sticklers about that.) Failing that, any shred of positivity on a general board would be nice too. Failing that...well just keep doing what you're doing, cause you've gotta be you.

2) PM me or Rizin about your specific problem. Worst case scenario, we'll admit it's bugged and take steps to fix it, maybe even getting you a reset. Best case scenario, we'll take some of the phrases you attempted to use and add them to the quest, and help you from there.

Thanks!

(Edited because apparently two of your posts were deleted and you have a lower postcount now.)

[Prolix]

Generally speaking it is pretty easy to tell when the npc has finished his spiel in a quest dialog. Once you have your instructions the tape dissolves and further questions will only get the photo-booth to stare blankly at you. Should you find the mission impossible you will be disavowed except where the enemy wishes to taunt your masters and then you must return and say you have failed. Some quests require this.

If you are looking for further hints ask other players, in character as much as possible and barring that in brackets. Consult your chat logs to see if you missed anything. Sometimes keywords are obvious others not quite.

[nightstone000]

well thanks for telling me that im a noob to the forums here and that reflects that you assume i have

1: no beta testing background
2: no ability to comprehend or get points across
3: no relevant information to give because ive only been playing for 3 days
4: i should be backhanded to the face because my views are different than yours

is generally what you say when you point out that i have 6 posts reguardless if i have read the entire bug tracker, read the entire forums, and have triplicate copies of your webpage on my hdb3


last note before explosions this is not a topic to the devs asking devs to fix stuff
its a topic to the players/roleplayers that do questing and understand its enviornment

[Karyuu]

The only reason your post count was brought up, is because you cannot send private messages on this board until you have made 10 posts. This is a step taken to prevent spam by PMs that we have experienced several times in the past.

[Under the moon]

Er... I got the impression that you liked questing as an alternitive to grinding mobs and mining... but sort of also that you don't like questing. Your post was a bit confusing as to the core point. Some may have taken it the wrong way. And yes, the 10 post thing is just to block spambots, and nothing against you or others.

[Warhoon]

I *think* that I understand what Nightstone was asking about...sorta...so will give it a stab.

I personally like questing.  It has given me good reasons to explore the various zones, and the desire to complete certain quests has given me motivation to improve my skills so I can do those things faster or better. 

As for whether I like to do quests over other things.  A little bit, perhaps.  I enjoy roleplaying -- a lot-- when it happens. But to be honest, I am a very casual player who does not play often and when I do, it's not for long periods of time.  Even though I enjoy roleplay, I am also a very progression oriented person.  I like to complete tasks.  So, if the choice is roleplaying or questing...well, questing will win hands down over routine roleplaying. Example of routine: standing around shooting the bull while mining platinum.  Exceptional roleplaying, or event roleplaying, will get me off a quest. For instance, once I was asked to help 'hunt' someone by a bounty hunter. They approached me and said they had been charged with tracking down another Nolthrir, and they needed a Nolthrir to aid them.  I was intrigued. A conversation ensued, followed by a hunt and an eventual betrayal (on my part) because I did not particularly trust the motives of the bounty hunter.  You get the idea--it was fun, and out of the ordinary.

When I first started playing PS, it was when gold was big.... gold mining near Hydlaa...crowds of people all standing there mining.  Sound familiar?  I was too new to even know where to start on mining. This was fortunate, in hindsight, because it meant that I chose to do quests instead and those were more fulfilling.  HOWEVER, the truth was (and I did not realise this until later) that you need tries -- tons of 'em -- to train to decent levels in the game. Perhaps I should have been mining, because after that the gold was harder to get out of the ground and it took me a LONG time to make enough money to get decent training.  I make this point because I think it highlights a slight problem in the game, which is that it takes an awful lot of trias to pay for training. It's a real challenge to a casual player like me (and there are lots of us) and I think it's why so many people are standing there like zombies with mining picks in their hands instead of RPing or Questing, both of which are more rewarding activities.

I don't know how to fix this (or even if anything is broken) but it's just an observation.  I suppose it depend on how the devs feel and what they want the population doing.  One thing that keeps it interesting, of course, is that mining resources change and new things come (and go).  This in itself keeps the world interesting.

In closing, my advice to newbies is to get your Endurance training as fast as you can (so you can run farther, faster!) and DO those quests!  You can get some very neat stuff.  Ask around, people will tell you which ones to do, and you will probably need help in completing them particularly those that require killing certain monsters. You will find that many people are kind and willing to help, and this is a great way to make friends.

Good luck.

-Tenveren Taniseed

[nightstone000]

i can guess there may be a few quests that are broken or incomplete?
somehow ive run into a few where the dialog doesnt really mention the phrases to talk to the next person
or that the required items are impossible to find unless buying from a player or just asking the dumb question "where do i find x"

does anyone think that getting previous quest items should be held onto forever just incase 300 quests down the road someone says 'bring me a spoon' and low the beholder has not one and the quest you did as noob you got a spoon and sold it immediately? then no other way to get a spoon than to have throwaway char do quest over to get spoon and give to ye through 3rd party trade?

i mention because of the early early requirements to get steel ingots
anyone know how hard steel ingots are to get from npcs or make when you cant even melt iron or cast an ingot?
yeah pretty impossible when the only way anyone got so far was to be given a metallurgy skill at birth and spend 3 weeks levelling it up to make steel ingots

****maybe each quest should have alternative ways to complete if requiring difficult items to aquire
"you can ask x how to make x" "x says to make x bring me simple item x for trade"
instead of going to the nearest player and saying "hey im noob can i buy x from you for $$$$ because i cant make it and npcs wont give it to me"

seems a bit more likely than requiring player interaction
and again, how does player x get to make steel when you cant? what happened in previous quests or versions to allow them the ability to make x? or does that come later down the roads

[Cebot]

I don't really get your point, but i'll try to answer as far as i understood it.

If I get it right, then you want solutions for quests which _only_ involve npc's and not other players. In your example with the steel ingot you you would rather get it from an npc than making it yourself or buying it from other players? Sorry, but thats probably not going to happen, the opposite is likely what most players want: more player interaction within the system. After all this is a roleplaying game, so you do not have to go up to a player and say "hey, I'm a noob, can you sell me some steel ingots?" but instead you could ask "Hello, I'm on an errand for <npcname>. He/She/Kra is in need for some steel ingots and I promised to bring it. Unfortunately I am not able to make steel myself. Could any of you hard working people sell me a few ingots?" (or something like that).

You mention that it takes 3 weeks to become able to make steel. Wow, tell me please how you train metallurgy please, most people I know are able to make gold ingots after a couple of days (15 levels between steel and gold). No seriously, it doesn't really take that long to learn those few levels to make steel, but it is not required if your char won't be a smith. So I still suggest you to interact with other players and get your items from them - besides, it is really rare that npc's require items you cannot get from other npc's...
I don't know how far crafting was when you last played the game, but probably not that far. But things change and indeed they have changed. making iron ingots is even possible with level 0 in metallurgy, all you need it the correct book, the whole training for 0->1 and the required amount of ores.

As for broken/incomplete quests. It probably will happen with a lot of quests that someone thinks the phrases he tried should work and will think how retarded the system is when they figure out the correct phrase. For such cases Jeraphon has told you how to deal with it: Get in contact with him or with Rizin and tell them about the actual issue, they will look into the quest script and see if it is needed to add more phrases or to change the already existing phrases.

and again, how does player x get to make steel when you cant?

Simple answer: They have learned it by training metallurgy. Have a look at the various smith shops around, most of the players which hang out there are able to make steel. You can ask them, they won't bite (or will they? )

****maybe each quest should have alternative ways to complete if requiring difficult items to aquire

A lot of quests already have multiple ways for completing them. Because you only know one way, doesn't mean there are no other ways.

As for the example with the spoon. Cooking has been implemented resently, so various npc's do sell kitchen tools now. Look around and you probably will even find one who sells a spoon

somehow ive run into a few where the dialog doesnt really mention the phrases to talk to the next person

For some quests it is not intended, so get in contact with Jera or with Rizin about it. For other quests it is intended, to have the player think about it. I've run myself into a few quests where i got told "get me foobar from npc2" and i went to npc2 and had not the slightest idea how to continue. Reading the previous dialogs again might help again. Perhaps it is not a phrase but an items that makes you continue the quest? Perhaps you have to be a little smart and trick npc2 in an IC way to continue? Lots of possibilities, but again, if you think there is an issue with the quest, get in contact with Jera or Rizin.


Hope I could help you a little,
Cebot

[nightstone000]

i think more the point of questing is to gain storyline from the worldand intently avoid player interaction because players dont give quests do they?

quests are npc interactions not npc-player-dev interactions

the idea of a quest is you can learn the world through this interaction while gaining xp, coins, items
it forces you to travel to unknown lands to talk to certain people to find out about other items, lands, people

if it was as simple to ask harnquist to give me a quest, then immediately ask the nearest player some rp info and gain item then return it to harnquist it would not be nearly as thoughtful


i will state again, npc questing is just that, for npcs
player interaction is not required and should be completely solvable by npc interaction


other such things for like "how do i learn fighting" is player roleplay interaction because even if an npc teaches it and explains it all.. that is not the sole job of a quest to learn fighting
more of just another way that players give to the exploration and storyline of the gameplay, not give items to solve quests
hence heavy use of the word items and locations, which should be answered and solvable by npcs

[Cebot]

Ok, back to your steel, a steel stock sells to the npc's for 80 tria. Now if it was possible to get this item from an npc, by buying it for some little more money, or by doing a quest, don't you think everyone would just do that to get steel and make weapons out of it? Heck, mining iron and coal would be useless at all then. Steel stocks sell between 1000 and 3000 tria each among the players, not if i could get it for 100 tria, why would i pay a player more than ten times as much? No sorry, thats not the way it should be. PlaneShift is a roleplaying game, not like most other mmorpg's which don't deserve the rp in their name. Here it is good that players play their roles and that players interact with each other and player chars are IC'ly citizens as well as NPC's, so why excluding some citizens (player chars) from errands completely?

Besides, Players do give quests too, it happens rarely, but it has happened and I'm sure from time to time it still happens.
Say what you want, but it would already be a quest if a crafter char asks you to get him/her/kra some steel (and in fact, some npc quests do exactly that). Just the reward would probably bigger from the player char, as you learn where the required mines are and also will get some more money for it.

There are a lot of possible quests a Player could give to another Player, the question is just how much is Player A willing to put into making quests and how much are the other players interrested in doing these quests?

If you've done all quests ingame, you probably will know a lot about the settings of the game, about the citizens of yliakum (npc's only), have spent a lot of time interacting with citizens all over yliakum, but still won't know a single player char. Now I ask you, are you playing a multiplayer roleplaying game, or a single player standalone game?

if it was as simple to ask harnquist to give me a quest, then immediately ask the nearest player some rp info and gain item then return it to harnquist it would not be nearly as thoughtful

Whats wrong with that? If the nearest player to harnquist is a smith as well (very likely that will be so), this player will have the needed information for you, if your quest is about crafting. Let me give you an example of what I mean:
(not a real quest tho!)
Player: Hello
Harnquist: Oh, hello. Do you mind, I'm looking for my bronze stock, it must be somewhere around here.
Player: Can I help you?
Harnquist: I have to make this weapon for XYZ and he wants some ornaments made of bronze on it. I seem to have run out of bronze. Could you get me some?
Player: yes
[You got a quest]

Now, you are not a crafter yourself, you have no idea what bronze is made from and where to get the needed metals, so you stand there next to the smith shop:
* Player mumbles something about bronze
Another players is right next to you, the player happens to play a crafter char.
Player2: Excuse me? I've heard you saying something about bronze. I'm a crafter, can I help you somehow?
Player: Oh yes, Harnquist here is in need for some bronze and I have not the slightest idea what that even is.

From here on there are some solutions imaginable, solution 1:
Player2: Ah yes, bronze, a kind of worthless metal made from metal1 and metal2.
Player: Ahh, thank you. Do you happen to know where I could purchase these metals, or even buy bronze stocks?
Player2: I actually happen to have some left over, give me a circle and their are yours.
Solution 2:
I only know where to mine metal1 and metal2. But if you bring me X metal1 and Y metal2 I could make you a stock out of it

and so far and so far, It should just give you and example that player interaction _can_ be useful for quests. It is _not_ a must, but saying it should be completely left out of npc quests is _imho_ the wrong way for a game that combines RPG and MMO to MMORPG

Always keep in mind, that the players around you have probably some information/items/whatever which could be of an advantage for you at one point. Also you can build up IC social contacts that way and won't walk into the tavern after a year of playing to only see people you have not talked to before but have been there all the time too

-- Cebot

PS: a coin always has two sides, doesn't it?

[TDB]

PS: a coin always has two sides, doesn't it?

Or 3, or 6, or 8...