Regarding "Souls"

[Shaman]

It's somewhat of a myth in real life to say that we all have souls - saying your soul dies and goes to heaven, for example. If we take a look at simple aspects of nature and evolution, the soul might be an idea of someone's imagination, and nothing more. Therefore, is it really appropriate to draw reference to souls in PlaneShift, such as with spells like Nature's Intuition, or saying that we can bind our souls to the Dark Crystal to become immortal?

[Kedhran]

If we take a look at simple aspects of nature and evolution, magic might be an idea of someone's imagination, and nothing more.  Therefore, is it really appropriate to have magic in planeshift?
If we take a look at simple aspects of nature and evolution, gods might be an idea of someone's imagination, and nothing more.  Therefore, is it really appropriate to have gods in planeshift?
If we take a look at simple aspects of nature and evolution, ulbernauts might be an idea of someone's imagination, and nothing more.  Therefore, is it really appropriate to have ulbernauts in planeshift?

C'mon, dude.

[Shaman]

I really hate ignorant replies. Magic is explained and is a part of PlaneShift, just like how touching a wall is a part of real life. Souls aren't. All we know is "souls can be bound to the Dark Crystal, leave the body when we true-die, etc." Nothing else is known about them, like what they are, and how we know about them.

[Kedhran]

Your initial post was "Souls arguably don't exist in real life, why should people believe they do in planeshift?"  The point I was trying to make:  It's a fantasy, real-life nature and evolution are meaningless.  Ignorance is arguable, but at least consider the validity.  But I digress.  It isn't necessary for one to have full understanding or even concrete knowledge of their beliefs, it's the whole concept of faith--So people would mention it anyways.  Or maybe it is proven that the soul exists, by virtue of the spells you mentioned (and likely others), but not much is known about them.  Or maybe something IS known of them, but it just hasn't been implemented yet.

'Soul' is just a word.  It can mean any number of things to any number of people.  I could offer all sorts of speculation of what a soul would be in PS, and I'm sure quite a bit exists out there in other peoples' brains.  I don't think that a soul is something that should be scientifically defined in any video game or fantasy world...  Some things should just be left ambiguous.  But that's just my opinion, take it as you will.

[Shaman]

Well, let me ask this, what does the soul really do? We have the heart that pumps blood through our body and is obviously a necessity to survive (also a delicacy in this game for some odd reason); we have the brain which controls our body's actions and thoughts, and is pretty much the storage unit of everything we are as a whole when it comes to personality and our overall "being". In PS, where does the soul fit in exactly, and how would magic and immortality come into direct influence with this soul and your own body, when it may in fact just be the body that dictates when we die and what happens when we die? If you bind your soul to a crystal, that doesn't really explain how your body would suddenly stop aging (and that also goes in real life when you say your soul goes to heaven, since the vagueness begins with that line - is our soul wearing clothes? How old are we? What's our personality like compared to how it was when our soul was in our body? Does the soul look the same as our body?). The only difference between real life souls and PS souls, is that the souls in PS are playing a somewhat important part in each character's existence, seeing as we can bind them to a crystal and become immortal, or see into/kill a soul in someone's body (I believe I remember reading where there are spells powerful enough to rip someone's soul from their body, which would instantly kill them).

So when I say that it "isn't appropriate" to have souls in the game, I'm really trying to understand what the soul is supposed to do in this game in regards to life and death, and see if I can get a detailed explanation to work its way out of this thread as to what having gods would have to do with having a soul.

And no, if someone wants to lock this thread, I'm not discussing religion, I'm discussing an aspect of the game that might cause a huge inconsistency later on if it isn't pointed out.

[Kieve]

RP-wise, I find the terms "spirit" or "life-force" to be more easily applicable. Soul can be a convenient term for either, but gets tangled in theology too easily.

That said, you're trying to mentally work out the mechanics of the metaphysical. Don't expect a good answer to come easily, or quickly.

* Kieve wanders away to think about the ramifications of 'souls' as defined entities... *

[Under the moon]

Original question: Yes.
Middle stuff: Conjecture and theory, just like real life.
Final point: No inconsistency.

[Gravemind]

Here's another thing, your physical body is not teleported into the death realm, because it might be a bit useless for walking around in after you just jumped off of BD canyon. So we have to assume that what you move around as in DR is some kind of ethereal representation of one's consciousness, that's your soul/spirit

A little IRL speculation: arguably, you can clone a brain down to the smallest molecule, and have it think and act and know exactly the same, but there are still two completely separate entities/consciousnesses there

[Under the moon]

Incorrect. Your body is transported to the Death Realm and fully healed (or reconstructed) in the process. Otherwise, you would have to assume that the fully healed body that you walk around with after you exit from the DR is also an ethereal representation. The logic is unsound.

[verden]

A little IRL speculation: arguably, you can clone a brain down to the smallest molecule, and have it think and act and know exactly the same, but there are still two completely separate entities/consciousnesses there

Two separate waves in the ocean are in fact not separate at all, there is only the ocean. They appear to be separate to each other's viewpoint, but they are in fact part of the same field. Sorry, a bit of quantum digression from the original discussion...

[Gravemind]

[Parallo]

http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27045.0

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Think of your character's existence as a divine work of "installation art" and the soul as the inspiration the deity had in creating you, while the work is transient the inspiration that caused it and the meaning it held live on in Dakkru's encyclopedia of existence.

[zanzibar]

It's somewhat of a myth in real life to say that we all have souls - saying your soul dies and goes to heaven, for example. If we take a look at simple aspects of nature and evolution, the soul might be an idea of someone's imagination, and nothing more. Therefore, is it really appropriate to draw reference to souls in PlaneShift, such as with spells like Nature's Intuition, or saying that we can bind our souls to the Dark Crystal to become immortal?

I think we have to seperate the concept of a soul from the idea of souls.

The concept of a soul says that there's something unique about each of us that can't be explained in a material way.

There are many different ideas about souls.  Some ideas say that souls are eternal, while other ideas say that souls are here for a while, and then gone.  There's a lot of variation between ideas, even though they're all versions of the same concept.  Some ideas say that we're all unique individuals.  Other ideas say that we're the universe trying to understand itself, or that we're all manifestations of a single being or energy.

PlaneShift's version of the soul is just another one among many.  I don't think it's worth being critical of it, since it's largely a plot device anyway.

[yanom]

If we take a look at simple aspects of this forum, shaman might be an idea of someone's imagination, and nothing more.  Therefore, is it really appropriate to have shaman on this forum?