Make the economy run

[Sahema]

I'm a new player (only a few days) but I find Planeshift very interresting and very promising in long term.
I'm also very glad with the point of view of developpers written on the internet site, in particular the aim to developp a role playing community and a real in game economy to encourage that...
But I was a bit disappointed when I really discoverd the game itself.
I think that the game is (like every other mmorpg) too much obssesed with combat, magic and weapons.
Maybe I didn't explore enough yet but I think that a game with such a high interrest in developping an economically living world should concentrate on gameplay rules.

First of all : food, drinks and entertainement.
This would help players to developp cooks, bartenders, muscians, singers, theater troups, poets, etc.
I know that it's possible to do all that using some "/me" commands and feel happy about it... but I think that if food, drinks and entertainment had an impact on the game, roleplaying would be far more present.
The need for food, drinks and entertainement should be implemented in the rules. The physical and mental stamina is a very good way to do it. Maybe I don't know enough about the game but I feel that this need is not important enough to make the economy run. For example, I can run all the time, kill creatures, accomplish many quests during several days and I don't even need to eat or drink or have some fun. My charater can be totally cut from the world and ohter characters...

My proposition is
1) staminas should be a multiplifier for the PP points you gain. If both your bars are at max, you gain 200% pp. If your bars are nearly empty, you gain 10% pp.
2) stamina bars may be longer (2 or 3 hours to empty during an adventure) but it shouldn't come back so quickly... unless you eat or drink for physical stamina and be entertained for mental stamina.
That way you won't have only warriors and sorcerers and blacksmiths, you'll have a real economy, with needs and offers.

In the long term, thoses carreers (cook, bartender, musician, etc) should be as developped as those for warriors and magicians...
A begginer (cook,bar,musician) won't be able to give the all bar of stamina to his clients (especially if this client is high level). He will only succeed filling 50% of the bar.
An expert, fully equiped will be able to fill it quickly the stamina of any clients (quickly shouldn't be less than 5 minutes if you want to developp some rp)

This carrers will also create additionnal carreers (and thus diversity in the characters) because they need people to collect ingredients, make instruments and costumes.
Assuming that this collectors carrers also become interresting (and they developp their PPs in collecting skills, not everything in combat skills) , they will need protection from the warriors and magicians to go collect ingredients that are in dangerous places. They will do raids in order to catch this special herb that the bartender require to make the perfect cocktails for its clients...

To resume, my dream would be a mmorpg where characters could be ONLY cook (or muscian or bartender or tailor or ingredient collector or instrument maker) without combat skills (or just a little like in normal life). I'm sure that if one mmorpg on the entire web can do, it's planeshift, because I never encounter such a roleplaying community having the power on the gameplay.

I know that the game is not finished but I don't know if its beggining takes this direction now...Implement rules is less complicated now than in the future were all will be set.

[LigH]

Welcome.

Yes, indeed you are new. So you don't know that cooking and baking were implemented not too long ago and still don't have the final balancing. Fish and herbs are just even introduced. Handling musical instruments is not even implemented yet.

It is always again surprising how much smarter people who just even started playing this "game in development" are than the developers who already spent several years in designing a rather credible environment. Be ensured, when the developers find enough time to work on balancing "secondary skill", they will do. But there are so many much more urgent issues to solve first.

Like Minks said: It is hard to season a meal perfectly already while the ingredients are still raw.

[Minks]

* Minks is only a cook without any combat skills.

So are others.
And I bet you haven't met our crafters, miners, entertainers and bartenders yet.

[Sahema]

Thank you very much for your quick answer
It's true that I'm new, so I don't know much about the game, especially at which state of developpement it is.

My post was a general remark. I can't imagine things more important than these "secondary skills". That's the only thing I wanted to say : for me they should be primary skills for a game that aim to put roleplay in the first place of importance.
I think the fondamental rules should come first. Like the one I talk about using the stamina bar like a multiplifier for pps.
Maybe it's hard to implement of course but instead of working hard on implementing musical instrument maybe a command like /sing wich gives point to mental stamina bar to all the characters in range (depending on charisma and a singin skill) would be sufficent. There's no need of musical instruments, animations, etc.
I don't know if I'm clear but it's the same for food : It's great to implement cooking, baking, fish and herbs. It's in fact far more developped than I hoped ! It could even be less developped (just one type of food, like bread would be sufficient to start)...
I'm talking about the way this things should be in the basic rules of the game. The way they should become a need for every character and thus run the economy of the game (like my proposition of a stamina bar that doesn't refill unless you eat/drink and the necessity to have a full stamina bar to gain pps).
I don't criticise the amount of work which has been done and i'm amazed by everything I see in the game when I think of all the work needed !
My point is almost the opposite : I think it's not necessary to developpe too many details and it would be preferable to focus on the balancing of the fondamentale rules (using very simple action like "/sing" or "/cook"* and a mulitplifier with staminas for PP gain) in order to implement the need for it in the game in an early stage and see how the economy works and can be improved.
Maybe what I propose is very hard work... But I think it's fondamental, before detailing so much combat, magic and blacksmithing.
Sorry if I may seem arrogant. I know that developpers have works for many years on this game. But I spend these many years at trying mmorpgs of all kind, looking for a balanced economy that encourage community and roleplay. I analysed their fondamental rules (i'm not speaking about balancing) and the biggest problem I found was everytime that this skills (cooking,entertaining, crafting and collecting) were considered as secondary. They should be as important as combat in my point of view.

*wich could put one unit of bread in your inventory if you succeed, even if you had no ingredients, for a start. The object Bread would give some stamina points when used and disappear.

[Sahema]

I did met an entertainer who plays music using /me commands. (As I also wanted to play a musician, I was very interrested but realise that if I wanted to use the rules of the game, i had to do some magic or combat...).
I didn't met many other people like that (but it was the only reason i tried this game, so I looked for them).
Maybe I should start with another character, maybe cooks are more developped. I should have start with this.
I may be wrong but i think that I met so few cooks, bartenders and entertainers because their role in the game is mostly roleplay. (and OK the second reason is that i'm a newbie who does not even understand how to go to Ojaveda (i tried two times and lost 2 hours) and who spends hours to find the library or npcs)

[Minks]

Sahema,

you make some good points, but I suggest that you play a bit more and talk to characters and players ingame or in irc and browse the forum a bit more.
For example, food does heal health or stamina, depending on the dish.  

Best,
Minks

Edit: And yes. The "secondary" skills do need a boost. When you have collected some more experience, come join the skunkworks team.

[echong]

keep walking down that cooking path Sahema, I think you might be satisfied. (although you will have to find your way to Ojaveda)

and yes, as you play you will meet more and more characters who play these artisan roles. true, they're products don't have much impact on gameplay, but they do help in creating an extremely immersive roleplay environment.

[Sahema]

Of course food give Hp and stamina... like in every other mmorpg with food. And of course I'm sure the cook and entertainers help creating an immersive roleplay environnment, I'm glad of it.. that means I really found a rp community wich is very rare in mmorpg these days.

My only desappointment comes from the fact that planeshift (even if it's been developped by roleplayers) is not closer to a structured and realistic univers than every other mmorpg. For example, in paper roleplaying game, food doesn't heal wounds you had in combat but is necessary if you don't want to get weak, and then die of starvation. (And I think it could be the same with entertainement, It's in a way necessary for mental health)

I'd love to participate on the rules, I don't even want to play, only to do my best to help create a fantastic game. I'd love to participate to the skunkwork team or even the rules departments (I didn't find any place to apply in this particular department, is it possible ?). But you're right I may not have enough knowledge about the game... so I have to play more... I'm not sure that i'll go on a long time because (sorry everyone) I'm a little bored now. (Again I spent some hours looking for Ojaveda, then the broken door, then Jorish, and other NPCs and I didn't meet any other characters...)

[Minks]

Are you playing around the same time you post here? From your problem that you didn't meet other players, it sounds like it. Most people are online during gmt evenings and probably even more during gmt nights = american afternoon/evening. (A little hint about finding NPCs when there's noone else around: Once you've find the local tavern, ask the bartender NPC "about NPCName" in the NPC chat tab (without quotes). They should know most of their neighbors.)

I'm glad to hear that you consider joining the skunkworks team or even the rules department.   We really need every hand and head we can get.  One reason for the imbalance between code/art/rules/settings is that they don't have the same manpower in each department. And it's not useful to ask a codemonkey to write funny quests and in-depth backgorund stories.  

Skunkworks. The leader, Eliseth, is inactive at the moment for (to me) unkown real life (?) reasons. The best way is probably to hop on #planeshift on freenode and try to contact Lilura or Mishka. There are irc brainstorming sessions and google docs to join.   ( http://www.planeshift.it/irc.html ).

Rules. Hmm, dunno. Maybe it's part of the setting department? Maybe someone who knows reads this here. But in #planeshift-build they should know. Or anyone with operator status in the other irc channels. Stelanso is the leader of the rules department. You can contact him on irc or via email (see pm).

There is also another state of being, between the informal skunkworks and being a full team member. It's called being a "contributor". I think botanic (again, on irc) manages them. If not, he knows who does.

Good luck,
Minks